[Closed] Volcano RANT! Ryanair FAIL

Force majeure

If you don't like the fact your flight might be cancelled due to reasons beyond the airlines control, don't fly.

Why, exactly, is it ludicrous that passengers are claiming expenses from their airlines?

Because it's beyond their control. There's nowt anyone can do about it. Suck it up.

Ive just rang through to them to try and get a refund on a ticket that was cancelled. Apparently theyre so busy they cant answer my call. Not particularly happy. They havent even emailed me to inform me how to go about processing a refund.

Ive just rang through to them to try and get a refund on a ticket that was cancelled. Apparently theyre so busy they cant answer my call. Not particularly happy. They havent even emailed me to inform me how to go about processing a refund.

Mrs PP books travel for many people in her company as part of her job. She's spending all day on hold, 1hr+ each time, just to speak to someone, because her boss says she has to. When she gets through, there's nothing that can be done.

Her advice - It's just tough titty. Forget about it. Walk away. It's not worth it. Give it a few days after it's all blown over (Pun intended!) before ringing again.

Quit moaning.

Yup - airlines are covering hotels etc out of goodwill (or it maybe in the contract) - they don't have a duty to do so otherwise.

As a general rule insurance excludes stuff like this is as it would push up premiums disproportionately.

£10 travel insurance for your week in spain covers you for the 1 in 20 or so people that lose a camera, passport of wallet (20*£10=£200, about the cost of sorting any of those).

It would bankrupt them to have to cover however many million passengers for weeks or potentialy months of hotels and other expenses.

If you dont agree with the small print, fly with an airline who will pay your expenses in this scenario, but they wont be as cheep as ryanair.

Because it's beyond their control. There's nowt anyone can do about it. Suck it up.

Tough $hit. Hiding behind force majeure is a bit low, frankly. So it's beyond their control. Tough. They'd happily milk you if there were reasons beyond your control as to why you couldn't make it to the airport and the plane did fly.

They sold the ticket. They agreed the contract to transport you (and your goods at £10 per bag) (plus taxes) (plus surcharges). It's their problem.

airlines are covering hotels etc out of goodwill (or it maybe in the contract) - they don't have a duty to do so otherwise.

If they are a European airline and flying into/around Europe then they do have a legal duty to provide meals and accomodation for passnegers stuck abroad. If Mr O'Leary hasn't built this risk into his pricing policy then perhaps his buisness model isn't quite a good as he thinks.

You miss the flight - you lose the fare. They can't fly you - they lose the fare.

Dream on zokes.

There's a reason why Ryanair are so cheap (in every way). They're fine until the smallest thing goes wrong, then they leave you high and dry. I use them for only one route these days because noone else flies it.

[i]They agreed the contract to transport you [/i]

Indeed. How carefully did you read the contract before agreeing it? Admittedly it probably doesn't actually include the word "volcano".

🙂

If you pay 5 pounds for your flight should the airline really cough up for a 2 grand hotel bill for something not their fault?

Insurance companies should be covering this, not the airlines. They take the opportunity to look at the dealer's cards before making a bet... well, this time it's backfired.

I'm with O'Leary on this. Though if I paid more fir the ticket I'd expect correspondingly more support in return.

Point is that it is EU law that the airline picks up the tab. O'Leary hasn't a leg to stand on this time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8621779.stm

[i]Insurance companies should be covering this, not the airlines[/i]
Presumably airlines also have insurance.

Force majeure is there in the contract becasue of these unusual occurrences.
Ryanair flies places you can't otherwise get to as cheaply and strands you there if it has problems. (Like me in Morocco)
You'll get you money back for the flight, as they promised. It's just that getting home might cost you more by other routes.

The passengers have a contract with the airline to transport them from A to B at the prescribed time

wrong, read the small print

I think you're confusing Ryanair (thieving shits) with a volcano erupting

If there was no petrol available for your car would you expect your car manufacturer to pay for a train or a hotel?

I'm with O'Leary on this. Though if I paid more fir the ticket I'd expect correspondingly more support in return.

I'd be very careful about ever putting myself "with" a prick like O'Leary. He may be a man of comical soundbites, but he's an arsehole. Of that there's no doubt.

Are you stuck in Morrocco Moses? Ace. 🙂

IanMunro - Member
Insurance companies should be covering this, not the airlines
Presumably airlines also have insurance.

It may run & run

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8626474.stm

can folks do a class action on this sort of thing

Just remember that the EU rules only apply on the return leg of a journey... so if you haven't started the journey yet you are not covered, and if you booked two singles then you are not covered either...

It might seem unfair, and the circumstances are really exceptional, but them's the rules and if they haven't made a provision for this sort of thing happening then they will be in future.

I just checked and they turned over €2.9 billion last year, making €100 million profit. I bet they have the cash reserves to do it (in fact the same report says they spent €1.3 billion on fuel last years so 1 week with no flights will save them €25 million in fuel which would pay for a quarter of a million extra nights in hotels and food at an average €100 per night) He's trying to avoid his obligations to save his profits which is what you'd expect him to do. Expect to pay more for your Ryanair flights in future though.

if you've booked accommodation & flights with the same agent/provider, then you may technically have a 'package holiday' arrangement, which is then covered by the operators ATOL license (if they're a UK operator and bona fide etc)... as far as I know, if you're covered by ATOL then in this circumstance the obligation is on the agent to cover your costs and get you home?

I wish I could get through to someone to a get a bloody refund!! Even an email address would be nice.

I'm supposed to be going to Berlin on Friday morning, however its not so important that I'm prepared to put up with hours of being messed around so I probably won't go.
Its not a big deal, I think Berlin will probably still be there next time.

...oh, and living near Heathrow its lovely at the moment, the weather's nice, the sky is clear and we can hear birds and church bells and stuff for the first time in over 10 years. I'd be quite happy for this to carry on indefinately.

ha ha. saw a guy in spain on the news. ferry to portsmouth. taxi to aberdeen!!!

then asking 'who's gonna pay for this???'

you are you idiot! a taxi to aberdeen! are you mad???

most the EU legistlation covers returns flights. this is why with Ryan air you have to buy two singles....

I haven't read all of this, but what I remember of contract law is... that if you enter a contract with specific clauses i.e. you ask the airline to deliver you to a specific destination at a specific time and they agree you might have a reason to make a claim.
This is, I think, an act of god and therefore unforseen, (debateable).

If you have a meeting in Paris at 16:00 and the flight arrives at 14:00, you might think that you have plenty of time. The airline might offer you an earlier flight to guarantee arrival. A reasonable request on the part of the airline, isn't it? You can now choose.

If you have booked through Ryan Air and told them before buying the tickets that you have a deadline, they agreed to get you there on time and entered a new and slightly different contract. They are agreeing to get you there and not just fly you there. Then I think you can claim. But would have to contest the act of god element, good luck.

If you booked the cheapest flight, got caught out by the volcano (why doesn't anyone call it by it's prper name??) and now want to claim. I think the answer is tough sh1t! Suck it up.

Look, I took a gamble and lost, can I have my money back?

Although I don't like O'Leary or his stupid airline I am with all the airlines on this one. It is completely out of their control and personally I disagree with all these demands for compensation are a bit much. I do also think that the airlines' requests for compensation from the government are also b0ll0x - both sides have to suck it up on this occasion.

most the EU legistlation covers returns flights. this is why with Ryan air you have to buy two singles....

I think they'll struggle to claim they don't sell return tickets

[img] [/img]

I see they're calling Don Quixote Airport by Ciudad Real, there was a call to name it Madrid South, it's 200km away FFS! Valladolid as Madrid North, again 200km. A bit cheeky, isn't it?

Bu66er!

O'Leary is trying to make it out that it's 'unfair' to claim from airlines for something out of their control.

If you were ill the day before you were supposed to fly, that would also be unfair, but you'd still loose your money. (unless you were insured, but then why a volcano is less controllable than you being struck down with a virus is anyone's guess)

He sells flights to places, it's unfair that a volcano erupted and stopped him doing so. But he sold the flights, and as such agreed to bring people back on their return flights. He can't do that, and should foot the bill for it, be it extra hotels or alternative transport. EU law says he has to do that.

I'm pretty sure if in some way you managed to cause him some consequential losses through no fault of your own, he'd happily claim for them, and his lawyers fees too...

This is, I think, an act of god and therefore unforseen,

God doesn't exist, and it wasn't really unseen. Volcanoes erupt, they eject ash, ash hurts aeroplanes. Iceland has lots of active volcanoes. All this is known. What, exactly, was the unforeseen bit?

What, exactly, was the unforeseen bit?

Umm - when they erupt? It's kinda like earthquakes - yeah we know they happen, we know where they tend to happen but we can't tell when one's going to happen or how bad it will be.

Plus of course the weather conditions that were extant when the eruption occured also have a big part in the disruption - had there been a big Atlantic low pressure with strong winds from the SW the ash would be heading over towards Russia & we'd all be flying round without a care. As probably would they.

Of course if it was all as predictable as you say any informed traveller would already have made alternative plans for getting home just in case this happened, so why should anyone else pay for their lack of foresight?

Of course if it was all as predictable as you say any informed traveller would already have made alternative plans for getting home just in case this happened, so why should anyone else pay for their lack of foresight

Because that's what the airline's insurance should cover. After all, it's written into EU law that they have a duty of care for returning passengers, and whilst rare, Icelandic volcanoes and strange weather aren't that uncommon. Just because their business model skimped on insurance doesn't mean anyone else should have to pay for their cockup.

Umm - when they erupt? It's kinda like earthquakes - yeah we know they happen, we know where they tend to happen but we can't tell when one's going to happen or how bad it will be.

I'm fairly sure that the good people of San Francisco are covered by insurance that will pay out next time the San Andreas Fault makes its long-overdue shudder. Anyway, we also knew that Iceland appeared to be going through a period of increased activity, and we're pretty good at predicting the weather in the short term. I'm fairly sure someone at the met office, if asked, could have said that if that volcano (that was already erupting) continued to do so, and we keep having north easterlies, the ash will come here. If I were in charge of a business that could potentially be liable for £millions in hotels and alternative transport if such foreseen events took place, I'd either get the correct insurance, or self-insure by increasing ticket costs. If not, then when it happens, and the customers submit their claims which they are legally entitled to do so, you go bust, not then cry to the EU or Westminster for your poor management...

Let the free market sort it out 😉

Legal duty, EU regs.

Though I feel some sympathy for airlines because it's not caused by their incompetence (for a change)

But rules is rules.

ruinair handled things a bit differently to other scheduled airlines. BA etc seem to be ona rolling "we'll see what NATS/CAA say and if there's a window we'l try to fly what we can", but ruinair just said "sod it we're cancelling all flights until wednesday".

IMHO that means Ryanair cancelled and can't use the force majeure clause on anything reasonably outside of the closed airspace time (at the time of making the call). So Ryanair have to refund the entire sum paid, including any booking fees, taxes, the lot. Some other airlines that are shifting from winter flights to summer ones just said sod it, flight cancelled, heres your 100£ back.

Since Ryanair use contract pilots + cabin crew, I guess they are happy at having virtually no staff bills to pay?

dickydutch - I was supposed to be flying Ryanair today, and only got an e-mail from them yesterday saying how I can reschedule my flights or get a refund.

Was going to provide the link to re book flights to another day, but that has expired, I imagine they will e-mail you in due course with this. If you want to cancel and get a refund though, here's the link to that

[url= http://schchng.ryanair.com/refweb.asp ]Refund from Ryanair[/url]

"TO APPLY FOR A REFUND ONLINE:

Customers who are booked on any of the below flights, who wish to cancel and claim a full refund on the unused flight(s) can do so directly by clicking on the link below and entering the required details. Refunds will be processed in 10 working days back to the form of payment used to pay for the booking. "

[i]If they are a European airline and flying into/around Europe then they do have a legal duty to provide meals and accomodation for passnegers stuck abroad. If Mr O'Leary hasn't built this risk into his pricing policy then perhaps his buisness model isn't quite a good as he thinks.[/i]

gonefishin is completely right. Airlines operating flights inside Europe (or European operators flying the return journey from anywhere in the world back to Europe) have to either refund the passengers or provide accommodation and meals (the passenger gets to choose) in the case of a delay [u]of any kind[/u].

O'Leary is a devious whinging scumbag but when he agreed to operate from Europe, he agreed to these rules. If his business wasn't adequately prepared or insured for this sort of event, it's their fault and should rightfully be their loss.

: P

As a general rule insurance excludes stuff like this is as it would push up premiums disproportionately.

Would it really? I don't think it's an especially common event. Heard a fella on the radio just advising people to make a claim via the ombudsman if they were denied reimbursement, since some insurance companies are paying out and some not.

As far as I'm concerned I'd have paid a cheap price for the ticket, it's out of their control and providing I got the price of their ticket back I'd be happy enough as I could be with the situation. It's not their responsibility to have backups in case of natural disasters.

[b]They like to think[/b] It's not their responsibility to have backups in case of natural disasters.

Fixed it for you 😉

I'd chase then through the small claims court if necessary in order to recoup any costs if I was stranded abroad

I've been with them loads of times to Dublin & missed the flight a couple of times though no fault of mine - once when it was their connecting flight that was late
I've got flat NO when I enquired if they'd transfer me to another flight, the only option was to buy another seat & not at the same price either, no, you have to pay the 'walk in' price

So I'm afraid it a case of 'Live by the sword, die by the sword' for them as far as I'm concerned

How is it a Ryanair FAIL? He makes enough noise that it's not their responsibility to refund expenses, then makes it so difficult to get any refunds that there are available that only a handful of people actually manage to get anything back, surely that that big Ryanair SUCCEED, and People Who Fly Ryanair FAIL?
O'Leary's business model? Well, I bet they're still here next year and I bet people are still complaining about their sh1t service.

I have no choice usually with Dublin flights & I'm quite prepared to put up with their business practices as long as they honour their obligations

I suppose that depends on what you're considering wrt compensation. I'd expect they'd cover the refund or got me home, one of the two. If I NEED to get home urgently they can refund me and I'll find an alternative. If they're willing to sort it all for me and I have to wait, they can pay for my extra accom. But compensation for things like loss of earnings and taking rediculous trips by stupid means should not be footed by them (i.e. taxi from russia).

That's what I mean CK [which I believe is their legal obligation] but they are saying they shouldn't be paying anything at all

Oh, I thought they were happily refunding. Well doesn't surprise me really, look at the costs they charge for adjustments to tickets - £100. Make a slight mistake on the form and notice immediately and you're £100 out of pocket for your time. To fly with ryanair you really really need to have your head screwed on and in gear when booking and accepting problems, if you do it can be nice and cheap, if not it can be a nightmare.

I think they'll refund but they won't feed you or stick you in a hotel whilst waiting for a flight - which they have to do if you're stuck away from home

So I'm afraid it a case of 'Live by the sword, die by the sword' for them as far as I'm concerned

Precisely that. If it were another airline maybe you'd be more sympathetic.

When pricing up the cheapest way to get from Bolton to Exeter for a conference before all this, FlyBE wanted to charge me between £6 and £21 each way for a seat! Just how am I supposed to use the ticket then???

Idiotic airlines with pricing policies in place purely to lure you in, then force you to spend more money or have wasted the last 30 mins it took you to get that far through their stupid websites deserve what they get, with volcanic ash on top!

(The cheapest way, by £40, was.... by car, by the way)

FFS! Let them fly ... if the planes crash please do not blame others.

Don't get cheese off if someone says "I told you so ...".

😈

whinging poms

whinging poms

I'm fine, but my new boss in Adelaide is annoyed as she can't make it to a conference over here. I'll only get grumpy if it doesn't go away by July, when I'm due to start down under...

I'd expect them to refund me or sort me out with accommodation/meals if they were still going to get me home. But I don't see that the airlines are responsible for the costs of getting taxis across entire countries etc. Some things just aren't really anyone's fault.

Some things just aren't really anyone's fault.

However, when the boot is on the other foot, you can forget it if they'll give you a refund or reschedule your ticket...

In any case, it's your choice whether they feed you and put you up, or refund you, not theirs. You can also guarantee that if you somehow managed to cause them consequential loss through no fault of your own, they'd hound you for it, especially Ryanair! Lost earnings / extra expenses to get you home and prevent lost earnings should therefore be treated similarly.

The Volcano gets my vote its done more regarding Immigration
in the past 5 days to what the Tories and Labour party have done in
a combine 25 years of being in power.

Book with Ryanair then you agree to be treated as they please. Amazed by the amount of complaints I see on them. Its like Arnold Clark. Why do people shop their? The business-churn model?

Does Ryanair also own a bikeshop in the Northwest BTW?

Sorry mate but you can't expect an airline to foot the bill whenever a natural disaster stops flights, that's just silly. If they compensate all the passengers that didn't fly they would go bust in a week and then there will be no airlines left to fly you abroad.

EU Directive says otherwise.

It might seem unfair, and the circumstances are really exceptional, but them's the rules and if they haven't made a provision for this sort of thing happening then they will be in future.

I just checked and they turned over €2.9 billion last year, making €100 million profit. I bet they have the cash reserves to do it (in fact the same report says they spent €1.3 billion on fuel last years so 1 week with no flights will save them €25 million in fuel which would pay for a quarter of a million extra nights in hotels and food at an average €100 per night) He's trying to avoid his obligations to save his profits which is what you'd expect him to do. Expect to pay more for your Ryanair flights in future though.

I think the point is that yes, there are rules in place, and it is indeed nobody's fault... A very definite force majeure. And precisely because of both those reasons, to me, whether it is or it isn't in law, it should be a case for the insurance companies. I hate to sympathise with Mr. O'Leary somewhat (only very slightly though, he is one of, if not the most, questionable businessmen on the earth's face, and he's also saving Millions on fuel for a week as stated above) but to some extent I do agree, why should the airlines compensate the passengers? Certainly I feel it's only proper that they refund the cost of the ticket, but why should they have to compensate for any additional costs? To me this should be a job for the insurance companies.

Anyway, whatever any of us think is kind of irrelevant. There will be some guaranteed outcomes of all this you can bet your bottom dollar though. With fuel prices at a record high at the moment, meaning some airlines are only just breaking even on the cost of many of their flights. Fuel prices used to make up under 10% of the cost of an airline ticket, these days it's more like 50-60% of the cost of the ticket! And fuel prices aren't set to come down any time soon. And neither will insurance premiums now, I should imagine that they will suddenly sky-rocket!

So the guaranteed outcome is that air travel is going to cost significantly more and very, very soon!

I'm more worried (long term, short term shouldn't be affected too much I don't think) about the company I work for. We make money servicing the landing gear for many commercial Airlines (RyanAir being one of them), our boss briefed the company today that he will be holding "risk assessment meetings" with the senior managers soon to assess the likely risk on the company of the volcano's eruption on the business. Short term, there won't be any effect, the planes are only grounded for a few days, a week at tops (and the gears only need servicing every 6 years or so), but long term this might reduce air travel significantly... Possibly a good thing for many to be fair, but it would severely impact on my employer's sustainability in the future.

why should they have to compensate for any additional costs?

Because it's the law

To me this should be a job for the insurance companies.

To you, and several others as well but not to the people who create and enforce the laws. Irrespective of whether you feel it's their obligation, or someone else's, or nobody's, the fact remains that the law says it falls to the airline. It's not as if it hadn't been previously considered and some bureaucrat has just this week decided to send the bills to O'Leary. It was 'always' thus. And if they haven't made arrangements to cover that eventuality, more fool them.

To you, and several others as well but not to the people who create and enforce the laws. Irrespective of whether you feel it's their obligation, or someone else's, or nobody's, the fact remains that the law says it falls to the airline. It's not as if it hadn't been previously considered and some bureaucrat has just this week decided to send the bills to O'Leary. It was 'always' thus. And if they haven't made arrangements to cover that eventuality, more fool them.

Fair comment, and you're absolutely right. Still doesn't stop me from thinking the law is not necessarily right... Not that I'm defending O'Leary or anything, if he hasn't countered for this expense in his business model, then indeed more fool him! But then again, I don't think many, if any of the airlines will have counted for it, and they've all got fairly restricted cashflow right now, so you can guess what will happen can't you... Yup, cue the Government Loans of taxpayers money to bail out the airlines! 😕

Don't think that'll happen, and I'd be against that happening. While the banks thing was a disgrace (and continues to be looking at articles today about Goldman Sach earmarking $5 billion for bonuses) there was a real prospect that banks going under could have caused runs on the others and a total meltdown. If a few airlines go under - the rest will take them over, divi up the routes and planes - once this is all back to normal there'll still be just as many flights as previously but maybe a few will be under different flags.

THE END IS 30.000FT NIGH!

Oh, wind's changed. Carry on.

Quite simple, and not just internet conjecture then. Ryanair FAIL...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8621779.stm

This is why I never booked with Ryanair.

Contact them, they'll apply cancellation or admin fees to any potential refund.

On the costs getting home. You'd be better off taking them to court. Then you'd probably find out their registered office is now somewhere far away or funky.

HAHAHAHAHA!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8636944.stm