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Sir Ratty Ratcliffe, brexiteer and Monaco resident, has decided to stick two fingers up at those 500 potential workers in Bridgend and build his Grenadier in France instead. Guardian
Happy Christmas Jimbo, you ****.
This is the way.
he said in September 2019. “The decision to build in the UK is a significant expression of confidence in British manufacturing, which has always been at the heart of what Ineos stands for.”
But when he saw the opportunity make more money by building overseas he took it. I don’t have a problem with a business being business minded but don’t go swanning around with the British flag waving if you are not going to stand by your word.
Edit: I was too soft. He lobbied for Brexit, a vocal supporter of Britain going alone stating British industry is world class and doesn't need EU access. He then locates his manufacturing in France to take advantage access to markets that EU has to offer. What a massive bellend.
Brexiteer persuades people via the Sun that 'things will be built in Britain', then buys plant, tooling and talent from Germany ready made by Mercedes instead. Well, colour me surprised.
He probably realised he needed to move fast or Nissan would buy it to replace the Sunderland plant.
People of Bridgend voted to leave, so Ford and Ineos did.
I would like to see the Welsh government get some of the £5m back that he took as he is now not keeping the plant in the UK.
https://www.business-live.co.uk/manufacturing/welsh-government-want-money-back-18560962
He lobbied for Brexit, a vocal supporter of Britain going alone stating British industry is world class and doesn’t need EU access. He then locates his manufacturing in France to take advantage access to markets that EU has to offer. What a massive bellend.
This, but...
People of Bridgend voted to leave, so Ford and Ineos did.
...also this
One rule for Brexies, a different one for the rest of us...
Edit: I was too soft. He lobbied for Brexit, a vocal supporter of Britain going alone stating British industry is world class and doesn’t need EU access. He then locates his manufacturing in France to take advantage access to markets that EU has to offer. What a massive bellend.
No different to every other rich Brexiteer.
Jacob R-M moved his investment fund business to Ireland, Farage was on the phone to Germany the day after the vote trying to get himself a German passport, James Dyson moved everything over to Singapore...
Anyway, what's Welsh for schadenfreude?
Anyway, what’s Welsh for schadenfreude?
Lladenfreude
Well, there's a ****ing surprise. Still, will of the people and all that.
It’s a complete sham this, another example is the Hungarian airline Wizzair setting up UK bases for next year, they most likely will not be employing British pilots, when there are at least 1500 unemployed British pilots.
We’ve collectively been sold down the river but unfortunately the majority of the great British public won’t realise this until they get their P45.
Does this mean he will be renaming it the Musketeer?
What an absolute tool that man is.
People of Bridgend voted to leave
So did Sunderland. Sometimes my brain really struggles to make sense of people and what they are thinking..
is this [I]actually[/I] down to Brexit though, as in the Welsh site is now genuinely unviable, or is it just down to this guy being a **** and wanting to make slightly more money on top of the billions he already has?Well, there’s a **** surprise. Still, will of the people and all that.
It looks like a bad clone of an old defender anyway.
Does this mean he will be renaming it the Musketeer?
https://twitter.com/joesaward/status/1336532128583061505
is this actually down to Brexit though
Very hard to prove, but there is a bit of a track record amongst rich Brexies as Crazy-legs points out
are going to rename it (the vehicle) the odious poltroon
Haha 2 faced rich businessman shocker.. That's great news for France though👍
Good news for France is good news for EU is good news for global economy is good news eventually for the small fish (UK)
Maybe the people of Bridgend and Sunderland aren't overly happy with the treasure at the end of the rainbow??
is this actually down to Brexit though, as in the Welsh site is now genuinely unviable, or is it just down to this guy being a * and wanting to make slightly more money on top of the billions he already has?
My comment's more based around on the trouser snake being a massive flag-waving Brexit advocate then utterly betraying the people he helped encourage to vote leave by moving his manufacturing away from them. So, is the plant moving because of Brexit? Dunno. Is he a Brexit * for moving it? Absolutely.
Lladenfreude
Deserves recognition.
It is quite the con job with in excess of 17 million dupes.
Mind you, they put in 30+ years of groundwork. Drip drip.
Ratcliffe is an odious, hypocritical, greedy, shameless, tax dodging cxxx. One of the few men whom if they keeled over tomorrow id open a beer to celebrate.
How good a commercial proposition is his stupid vanity truck anyway?
Ineos Grenadier's unfortunate social media person was getting the rough end of the stick yesterday.
It looks like a bad clone of an old defender anyway.
Yeah it is, the whole project is fuelled by rose tinted nostalgia and development grant scams.
Sadly Welsh Gov has been taken for a ride, time and time again by Grifters who promise to build big projects here, they give them millions for development and then it all goes wrong at the 11th hour. See 'Circuit of Wales' and the latest TVR for details. Word is that the Local Gov in France, fearful of job losses when Mercedes left outbid Bridgend to have the factory there.
As for the actual car, as you say it's a blatant Defender rip-up. supposedly Ratcliffe, fuelled by Patriotic Nostalgia and Brandy (from him home in Monaco) get all pissy when JLR finally stopped making the old defender and said he'd build one, and named it after his 'favourite pub in London' which gives you all the info you need really, mindless nostalgia, mixed with a 'good old fashioned Pub' and a military sounding name. Peak Brexiteer then.
Really though, the whole thing is doomed to fail. Land Rover didn't decide to stop making then for fun, they'd been in a battle with emissions with this slab fronted, heavy box on wheels for years. The last few years IO think they only made them for the sake of the brand, that's not to say they don't have their fans, but fewer and fewer of them wanted to pay more and more for a 35 year old car, which was only a mildly updated version of a 70 year old car with a rattly Transit Diesel engine.
By the time it's made, in tiny numbers, and has a BMW 6 cylinder engine installed it'll be very expensive, by the time it's taxed it will be very, very expensive.
So, buyers will have to ask themselves, do they want a tough, reliable, off-road 'tool' to use on the farm? Because the Japanese have made better ones for decades.
Do they want a 'Old Defender' well there's still a million on the road and dozens of outfits who will update, upgrade and polish them up for you.
Do they want a modern Defender, well turns out JLR make one, and apparently it's brilliant, it certainly looks great and once the Primrose Hill gang get their hands on one, no one will want the old ones.
This is the way.
You win the internet for today.
I too am nourished by brexiteer tears. The more shit that happens like this the better - the British need educating.
TBF How many of the Gammony masses would actually have been able to afford a British or French manufactured 'Grenadier' much less actually need one? It was always a billionaire's folly...
I think it's the perfect analogy for Brexit; a thing that a relatively small number of people ever asked for, oversold to the masses using misty-eyed nostalgia for a past that never really existed, and the promise of Jobs for the faithful... That promptly ****ed off to EU soil when a better "deal" turns up.
On the plus side, at least one Brexy can get a deal with the EU.
Are you listening BloJo?
I think it’s the perfect analogy for Brexit; a thing that a relatively small number of people ever asked for, oversold to the masses using misty-eyed nostalgia for a past that never really existed, and the promise of Jobs for the faithful… That promptly **** off to EU soil when a better “deal” turns up.
This 👆
The project is doomed to failure, so in some ways better for Bridgend to take the hit now, than for people's hopes to be built up and then beaten down again in 2 years when it folds (I went to school in Bridgend, and know how big the Ford factory was for the town).
I wish the man every failure.
Karma is a bitch.
If you vote for something, you should no longer have the right to complain about the consequences.
The positive and negative impacts of Brexit were clear (but cleverly manipulated for effect by both sides of the debate at the time). For those who voted 'to get our country back' without due understanding of the real world consequences, I say shame on you.
Making us a less competitive place to manufacture and do business with was always on the cards. If you voted leave and are now being impacted by the UK being less competitive place to manufacture and do business with, tough.
I work for a UK business that trades extensively with the EU. The cheques that I have had to write in the last few months to mitigate Brexit, and the ongoing s#$t storm that we will now have to endure beggar belief. And for what?
Ineos are a business. As unpalatable as it might be to some, the are in the game of making money. If Ratcliffe can pay less tax in Monaco, and manufacture his products more cheaply in France, I really can't blame him.
We had the opportunity to stay a part of the EU and a little over 50% of us decided not to. Now the 100% must suffer the consequences. I could be bitter about it (particularly since the balance of voters required to leave are probably now dead given the demographic profile of leave voters 4 years ago), but that's democracy for you!
Yeah it is, the whole project is fuelled by rose tinted nostalgia and development grant scams.
Sadly Welsh Gov has been taken for a ride, time and time again by Grifters who promise to build big projects here, they give them millions for development and then it all goes wrong at the 11th hour. See ‘Circuit of Wales’ and the latest TVR for details. Word is that the Local Gov in France, fearful of job losses when Mercedes left outbid Bridgend to have the factory there.
As for the actual car, as you say it’s a blatant Defender rip-up. supposedly Ratcliffe, fuelled by Patriotic Nostalgia and Brandy (from him home in Monaco) get all pissy when JLR finally stopped making the old defender and said he’d build one, and named it after his ‘favourite pub in London’ which gives you all the info you need really, mindless nostalgia, mixed with a ‘good old fashioned Pub’ and a military sounding name. Peak Brexiteer then.
Really though, the whole thing is doomed to fail. Land Rover didn’t decide to stop making then for fun, they’d been in a battle with emissions with this slab fronted, heavy box on wheels for years. The last few years IO think they only made them for the sake of the brand, that’s not to say they don’t have their fans, but fewer and fewer of them wanted to pay more and more for a 35 year old car, which was only a mildly updated version of a 70 year old car with a rattly Transit Diesel engine.
By the time it’s made, in tiny numbers, and has a BMW 6 cylinder engine installed it’ll be very expensive, by the time it’s taxed it will be very, very expensive.
So, buyers will have to ask themselves, do they want a tough, reliable, off-road ‘tool’ to use on the farm? Because the Japanese have made better ones for decades.
Do they want a ‘Old Defender’ well there’s still a million on the road and dozens of outfits who will update, upgrade and polish them up for you.
Do they want a modern Defender, well turns out JLR make one, and apparently it’s brilliant, it certainly looks great and once the Primrose Hill gang get their hands on one, no one will want the old ones.
Agreed, it all sounds a little bit DeLorean-esque to me!
Is this Brexit or is it:
Build a factory from scratch and train staff.
Vs
Fire sale price on existing factory and trained workforce.
Despite personally being a billionaire the actual co looks to have limited funding (in comparison to say Tesla). Remember Dyson pulled out of market after testing / analysing competition. With those odds it’s unlikely that the investment community is going to rally behind him and the co so it’s important they are careful. Having 3bn in the bank is meaningless if it takes 5bn to get the co to scale and the investment community would rather double down on Tesla / Nio etc...
From a trade perspective think of the taxes the US throws on a Range Rover or Audi. If anything the additional price makes the wagons even more desirable as a ‘foreign’.
With UK / Brexit I imagine cars are the first thing to get solved during negotiation. We buy a lot of VAG / BMW / Merc etc... UK needs them and they need to sell them, UK has no viable competition. Kind of win / win. It’s hardly fishing rights.
it all sounds a little bit DeLorean-esque to me!
Damn! Was just going to suggest putting a time machine in the back and everyone will be all over it.
Anyway, won't anyone think of Geraint Thomas? <awkward>
With UK / Brexit I imagine cars are the first thing to get solved during negotiation.
You sound like David Davies now.
23 days and counting... when do the German car manufacturers come riding in on their white horses? They aren't.
The Vote Leave government are happy to see our car manufacturing dry up over the next few years... they don't give a damn. Paying more over here for VAG / BMW / Merc etc is just something for us to suck up... it doesn't work the other way around I'm afraid... this is not about "two equal sovereign" states setting their trading terms... this is the UK on one side, the rest of Europe on the other... time to wake up. Opening a new car plant in the UK in 2021 would be foolish... Brexit cheerleader or not... it's just business.
Anyway, won’t anyone think of Geraint Thomas
he could pop next door and have a word.
As for the actual car, as you say it’s a blatant Defender rip-up. supposedly Ratcliffe, fuelled by Patriotic Nostalgia and Brandy (from him home in Monaco) get all pissy when JLR finally stopped making the old defender and said he’d build one, and named it after his ‘favourite pub in London’ which gives you all the info you need really, mindless nostalgia, mixed with a ‘good old fashioned Pub’ and a military sounding name. Peak Brexiteer then.
Really though, the whole thing is doomed to fail. Land Rover didn’t decide to stop making then for fun, they’d been in a battle with emissions with this slab fronted, heavy box on wheels for years. The last few years IO think they only made them for the sake of the brand, that’s not to say they don’t have their fans, but fewer and fewer of them wanted to pay more and more for a 35 year old car, which was only a mildly updated version of a 70 year old car with a rattly Transit Diesel engine.
So a vanity project that will probably be left to wither after a few years anyhow when/if no-one buys them. Bridgend may be better off without it.
Sounds like Ratcliffe is having the billionaire's version of a standard midlife crisis. His equivalent of buying old landies/classic cars and doing them up is to build and try to sell his own, while the 'getting old, buy a road bike and obsess over Rapha/power stats and the right kind of cap' thing is to buy a team.
Is this Brexit or is it:
Build a factory from scratch and train staff.
Vs
Fire sale price on existing factory and trained workforce.
TBH there's not much in, the Plant in Bridgend was going to be based in the old Ford factory which closed recently, there's also thousands of recently unemployed skilled production staff to fill the roles.
The factory in France makes, or made Smart EVs, I doubt its any better or worse for making large ladder framed SUVs than the former Ford plant in Bridgend.
The difference is one is in the largest trade organisation in the world with established trade global trade agreements, the same organisation as your engine/drive-train producer and the other is based in a country that doesn't yet know what it's trade agreements with the rest of the world will be in 22 days.
Apart from a availability of ready built modern factory and workforce, assume the fact that Ineos engineering partner, Magna already has chassis manufacturing/assembly facility at Hambach would be a major draw.
Also Portugal looses out in this deal as they were due to build chassis / bodies but this will move to Hambach.
When it comes to making putting together cars, they need us more than we... Ah. Piddle.
Geraint Thomas? Isn't another 'tax dodging' Monaco resident?
Since when was Brexit or the EU about locking up domestic businesses? My wife's NMW X3 was produced in the US just as every X3 is. Where is the outcry about that? Global business being global shocker!!
Starting a non electric car company these days does seem a strange idea.
Hopefully next week he'll start a VHS factory.
wobbliscott
Full Member
Geraint Thomas? Isn’t another ‘tax dodging’ Monaco resident?Since when was Brexit or the EU about locking up domestic businesses? My wife’s NMW X3 was produced in the US just as every X3 is. Where is the outcry about that? Global business being global shocker!!
How many models are there in the BMW range?
Did BMW court the Welsh assembly with a view to knocking the X3 together in Cwmbran?
I thinks not.
Did BMW court the Welsh assembly with a view to knocking the X3 together in Cwmbran?
I thinks not.
Because you chat to somebody casually at a bar, are you committed to marrying them, having a family and spending the rest of your lives together? Are the Welsh Assembly the bunny boiler at the bar that genuinely think that?
In laymen’s terms the uk will get a massive shit sandwich delivered every month. We all have to take a huge bite to get rid of it. However a new one will be delivered before we finish the first one !
And repeat
Are the Welsh Assembly the bunny boiler at the bar that genuinely think that?
Given that even the PM tweeted that it was a major bonus for Wales, global business, secured investment and jobs in the area then yes, I imagine they did think that, even if there wasn't a specific contract saying "we promise to build the car here".
Be interesting to see how many other components or pieces of the puzzle are in or in close proximity to Hambach. Also be interesting to see where his outside investment and advisors are based for other reasons that could have pushed the move like Gov grants / subsidies / loans offered from each country.
Not my industry but sounds a bit like when the US tried to incentive electronics co’s to manufacture in the US, not understanding that most of the supply chain is in or around Shenzhen. So many factors beyond the understanding of those not actually in supply chain or manufacture that end up getting politicised or simplified for pub conversation.
It’s a harsh thought but outside of F1 / small scale performance or specialist engineering I don’t see much incentive to physically manufacture at any real scale in the UK. I hope I sound nothing like D Davies when approaching business. Just try to look at all aspects at play rather than the headline. I think there will be real issues as a result, just don’t see cars as one of them. E.g https://www.reuters.com/article/eu-tech-semiconductor-idUSKBN28H1HV
Alongside losing ARM would be of much more concern to me...
Ratcliffe was only ever going to take the right decision for his company; if it's good for his company, it's good for him.
He's taken a pragmatic decision to not invest in the UK - as, I fear, many other businesses will also do in the coming years.
Ratcliffe was only ever going to take the right decision for his company; if it’s good for his company, it’s good for him.
He’s taken a pragmatic decision to not invest in the UK – as, I fear, many other businesses will also do in the coming years.
Of course he has - it's all the "go on, vote Brexit, it'll be great, the country will thrive, the streets will be paved with gold and unicorns for all, etc" nonsense he did that irks rather, now that he's taking his manufacturing elsewhere.
And his tax payments. Brexit cheerleaders making use of moving abroad personally and professionally, and taking jobs and tax income with them, leaving us to deal with the shit they have left us, is hard to take on the chin. He’s yet another who sold us down the river, and than ran away.
I have given up getting excited about the hypocracy and double standards surrounding Brexit. I could go full on Michael Douglas in 'Falling Down' at the drop of a hat if I think about it too much. So far on the hitlist:
1) Everybody who voted leave
2) Everybody who didn't vote at all, thus leaving the door open for the muppet collection in point 1.
(edit - I am perhaps only half joking here. I don't have access to the arsenal of a small African country!)
I negotiate for a living and train others to do so. The complexity of the Brexit negotiation is mouth watering to me as an intellectual exercise, but is the ultimate deal worth the pain?
Yep.
Someone will be along selling scaffolding and nooses in the new year.
They'll probably source them cheap from abroad though, putting UK rope makers out of business.
I negotiate for a living and train others to do so. The complexity of the Brexit negotiation is mouth watering to me as an intellectual exercise, but is the ultimate deal worth the pain?
Depends on what side of the fence you sit, the great mistake Remainers made, both as individuals and the official Remain campaign was debating on a purely non-emotional, economic basis.
Pretty much every economist the world over said it was stupid, and they were assuming it would be a 'light' Brexit when we'd remain in the Customs Union etc. There isn't a deal available that will offer an immediate improvement to our Economy, and or indeed any that offer an obvious long-term benefit.
The problem was the majority of Leavers didn't care, the more we shouting about Trade Agreements the less they engaged. There argument is far more emotional, they simply don't like the idea of being 'Ruled Over' by a foreign country and there is no financial penalty too great for 'Freedom' the worse the deal, the better for them as it's puts the most distance between the EU and us.
With that wonderful 20-20 hindsight, Remain should have campaigned to show that we had a huge amount of control over our neighbours, whilst the Sun was running bullshit stories about bendy bananas or whatever, we should have highlighted the changes we made for the rest of the EU to establish ourselves as one of the richest countries in the world.
The Sad thing is that there will be no comeuppance for Leavers, they won't accept Brexit caused anything nationally, they'll blame the EU for travel restrictions, punishment for leaving them high and dry and we will likely continue to be a wealthy country, just less so than we could have been and it will be a far rougher journey, but the dye is cast. Most leavers will never accept Brexit was bad, because that's too much like admitted you're wrong and will celebrate every victory as confirmation - like saying we managed to get the Vaccine first because of Brexit or whatever.
Since we're not likely to have tariff free access to the EU market for cars and will be subject to rules of origin etc, it makes no sense whatsoever to build cars in the UK now. So if you're at the point of making a decision, it would be completely irrational to pick the UK.
It's a logical and very obvious consequence of Brexit.
Depends on what side of the fence you sit, the great mistake Remainers made, both as individuals and the official Remain campaign was debating on a purely non-emotional, economic basis.
This didn't happen.
The Leave teams focussed on immigration, the NHS, and "our money"... that £350 million bus was all about an "economic basis" for leaving... the bait & switch about "sovereignty over the economy" happened post referendum... and even more so post having lost membership. When persuading people to vote Leave they absolutely promised that an economic benefit would be coming our way. The "average voter" was supposed to see that big fake number, and believe that it was costing us to be members, and we'd have more money to "spend on things like the NHS" if we left.
As for the emotional case... over to Sheila Hancock...
Remember Dyson pulled out of market after testing / analysing competition
I get your wider point but this is a bit apples and oranges, Dyson was about an electric (possibly self-driving) car that needed a massive amount of R&D. The Ineos Grenadier just seems to be a Defender/G-Wagen mash-up with nothing innovative about it, sure it needs a lot of tooling/manufacturing investment (which is what they're saving on by going with the French plant) but there's comparatively little R&D investment required (and the car doesn't rely on yet-to-be-developed technology).
I think it's adieu, actually.
hth
I agree Kelvin. The leave campaign was about building a hospital every other day and how much more prosperous we would all be without having to pay for the French farmers and Spanish fishermen (grumble, grumble). Yes there was an emotional component about 'taking our country back' (whatever that means), but the leave campaign was not totally lacking financial fairy tale content.
I do also agree with P-Jay that with 20/20 hindsight the remain campaign could have generated more of a feel good factor around being inclusive and diverse and what would be lost without that. As a remainer (did you pick that one up yet?), despite the financial impact on me personally, what I will actually miss the most is the emotional connection having worked for European companies and having friends in many European countries. There is richness in diversity and being open minded and it feels like a real backwards step culturally and emotionally. We now risk being stereotyped internationally as small-minded small-islanders.
the remain campaign could have generated more of a feel good factor around being inclusive and diverse and what would be lost without that.
That's exactly the kind of 'metropolitan elite' kinda talk (which, incidentally, I agree with) that many Leave voters rebelled against.
I think its going to be rebadged as the Panzer Grenadier 3.9 ... i have already got me coat.
Sounds quite snappy as a model name..
That’s exactly the kind of ‘metropolitan elite’ kinda talk (which, incidentally, I agree with) that many Leave voters rebelled against.
Sadly yes. Is it just me or is politics becoming increasingly divisive?
The leave campaign won because it lied totally and utterly and had some catchy phrases. Remain was less attractive as it told the truth. Anyway, all in past, Leave won and they can own every single consequence of their choice...
Leave won and they can own every single consequence of their choice…
Totally agree, and the exact sentiment of my first contribution to the this thread (he says trying get back on track with the OP's original thread and avoiding yet another Brexit thread!). Be careful what you wish for.......
Democracy isn't about making the right choice, it's about making the common choice. I accept the result but I will never accept the narrow minded lies that achieved the result.
Maybe remain should adopt the Trump approach and just completely deny that leave even won even after all of this time? 'It was the greatest steal in electoral history - everybody's saying it'.
As a percentage more people voted Leave in England than Wales. In Wales 47.5% voted Remain, so it's a bit harsh to tar them all.
one thing I've learned is that you can never have too many Brexit threads
In Wales 47.5% voted Remain, so it’s a bit harsh to tar them all.
Likewise the few people in the NE who didn't vote for all the car plants to close and move to Europe, who will find themselves in the middle of an unemployment black spot surrounded by racist nut jobs rejoicing in their new found freedom to never work again. Nissan's days must be numbered now.
As a percentage more people voted Leave in England than Wales. In Wales 47.5% voted Remain, so it’s a bit harsh to tar them all.
Actually, the Scottish and N Irish remainers should have the biggest axe to grind. In Wales, like it or not they voted to leave. Not sure how that breaks down in the exact catchment of the proposed Ineos factory site.
What galls me more given that Brexit will impact everybody in the country was the voter turnout (see my previous comments about 'Falling Down'). The apathy of almost 1/3 of the country is frankly (and in the truest sense of the word) unbelievable. The biggest failing of both campaigns can ultimately not be measured in lies or misdirection, but their inability to motivate the electorate to give a s#*t at the ballot box.
England
Voter turnout 73%,
Remain 46.6%
Leave 53.4%
Wales
Voter turnout 72%,
Remain 47.5%
Leave 52.5%
N Ireland
Voter turnout 63%,
Remain 55.8%
Leave 44.2%
Scotland
Voter turnout 67%,
Remain 62.0%
Leave 38.0%
Bridgend - 54.6% voted Leave, while 45.5% voted Remain.
Vale of Glamorgan (which would include a lot who might have worked at Ford) - 50.7% Remain, 49.3% Leave
so to say "Bridgend voted for it, they should own it" is a bit silly
(and yes, I know I'm adding to another Brexit thread)
That picture of the dogs is just excellent.
Not only because it has lots of dogs in it (and normally that alone would be enough).
I think that may end up being the best thing to come out of Brexit.
The Daily Mail has a lot to answer for...
Not only because it has lots of dogs in it (and normally that alone would be enough).
I want a pocket size German Shepherd now. Have you seen a Corgi cross…?
I stood on a Corgi once, it was very cross.
Not like Landy's haven't been made abroad before, does anyone remember the Santana or Iveco Massif versions?