[Closed] Virgin Trains RANT!

thereby stranding me in the middle of nowhere

err, you had a bike....

Ok, it's rather a long way to Preston from Tamworth, at 9.30pm...

But in fairness, 100 miles is a bit of an long ride to get to where you've got digs for the night

edit: molgrips - snap!

they are total jobsworths, the Virgin trains managers, they think they're in charge of Air Force One or something.
I once managed to plead ignorance and get my bike on, but that was at the start of the line so there were no time issues related to finding the right guy with the key to open the door.
I was once on a train with my bike and two others had been let on without tickets for their bikes, the train manager was going mental at them spouting a load of toss about health and safety despite the fact that there was loads of room and they were only going one stop.
shower of arseholes.

Train was bloody empty too. I've never been denied in those circumstances even when you did need reservations. Wtf? What have they got to lose?

I was quite excited about going on one of those nice trains too, esp in first class, but now I'm just annoyed at them. I'm going to complain.

why did nt u just get on ?

Especially if it was empty I'd have just got on.

I know the rules are stupid but did you not got get on so you could complain ?

If it had been your money not your companies would you have just got on ?

Utterly stupid, especially so as it was the last train. I'd be complaining.

Also, as someone who originally comes from Tamworth I can sympathise with you there too 🙂

why did nt u just get on ?

It did occur to me afterwards that I could've just got on. Or just stood with my bike half in the door and force her to open the bike door. They are locked btw on these trains, hence the issue.

Also, as someone who originally comes from Tamworth I can sympathise with you there too

Whilst trundling around looking for the Holiday Inn Express I thought it was quite nice actually. The hotel is right next to the famous snowdome too.

had this with virgin [ at preston FWIW] when my bike was booked but they had let 2 on without tickets. i stood in the doorway till the police turned up and they put my bike on the train.
It was years ago and the bike rack was behind the driver and would have fitted about 50 bikes

If the guards standing in the way of the bike place then I doubt just pushing past and telling her to do one is going to work.

Harsh that - could leave you totally bolloxed if you hadn't the means for a hotel.

Stiff letter of complaint on eaded paper.

Train was bloody empty too. I've never been denied in those circumstances even when you did need reservations. Wtf? What have they got to lose?

There seems to have been a change with all the rail companies recently as regards un-booked bikes. I did wonder if it has something to do with the Olympics.

If the guards standing in the way of the bike place then I doubt just pushing past and telling her to do one is going to work.

No ones suggesting do this if its empty just get on another carriage. Try and get the bike in the right carriage at the next station, if not repeat ?

 

No ones suggesting do this if its empty just get on another carriage. Try and get the bike in the right carriage at the next station, if not repeat ?

I guess it's true that once you're on and the train is moving you might be in a stronger position to get away without the reservation. Then again, it might be a face-off at the next station, big-man style.

I dunno Druidh. Scotrail last month let four of us on at Fort William last month without a reservation between us. Or is this more recent?

Asking very politely to bend the rules before boarding is the only realistic option. Or travelling a bit earlier and travelling by London Midland / Northern (changing at Crewe & Manchester) who you don't need bike reservations with. Travelling with a bike late at night is risky, engineering works (of which there is a lot at the moment in the North west - and hence rail-replacement buses) could leave you stranded anyway with a bike - the RRBs don't take bikes.

The little darlings who turn up by the dozen with their bmxs & tend to be antisocial / faredodgers / abusive are one reason the TOCs are being more rigid with the bikes rules.

Virgin Trains are utter *****s! I've almost lost count of the number of times they have bolleauxed my 'with bike' travel plans, despite prebooking!

All my options involved Virgin Trains at some point I think.

Travelling with a bike late at night is risky

Good point.. the train could have been full in any case.

For the record, First Great Western never bat an eyelid when I get on with my bike.

When you book virgin train tickets there is STILL not a way of 'seeing' if there is space online, so you have to ring india, and about £5 in calls and fury later you have a 'booking code'

When you get on the train you are supposed to be able to get a 'bike reservation ticket' from the office with the 'code'.
However the ONLY stations that do that are the London terminus's, every other station either doesn't have the system in place, or CBA'd or don't care. Its just LDN that is the problem.

Also with the train doors, its just a turnkey, nothing fancy about it (I have one and have used it before to let myself on and off trains with bike otherwise I'd have been bolloxed many many many many times when the guard fails to show) if you have a beefy car key or very large flat screwdriver blade you just turn it clockwise or anti-clock and hold it for 5-10seconds until door chimes and then opens; I'm telling you this as a PSA as
1) you might find you need it soon (guards often don't realise you can't get off/ or are even there/obscured by platform furniture)
2) DO NO FOR ONE MINUTE think others cannot access your bike, strip the components off it, and/or calmly walk off train from the bike luggage space with your bike (because they've made pendalinos' so its impossible to lock your bike to anything). as this happens more regularly than you would care to know about (and Virgin absolve all responsibility)

Hmm.. I see.. interesting to note about the key thing, cheers.

I've got to complete my journey tomorrow in rush hour, wish me luck.

+1 on RRB's not taking bikes. the line that links our county/area to the rest of the known world is cut off at least at one end thanks to floods/ bridge inspections pending. There was a group of 3 girls waiting to get on train back from their C2C trip only to find trains not going anywhere and bus man is not having bikes, let alone bikers in manky kit on his new plush £260k bus. Cue epic arguments and presumably EPIC last minute taxi bill (or maybe they could have just ridden the 250miles back to Bristol (in time for work in the morning?) I think was one of the comments!
Bloody joke eh.

Oh lastly, I got into road riding loads last year, and was getting bored of riding out and back, so instead booked a train to Lancaster (about 90miles away) then set the task of riding back. Got hyped up, ready and down to the station (sunday so only the morning train thats any good). Got to station and wasn't allowed on. Why? Because there was 2x prams or wheelchairs already onboard (and maybe 15-20people out of a capacity of 100-120). Despite it being a double train thing with 2x bike areas and 4x wheelchair spaces? Guard was a complete cock, and I was out a ride and my £27.50!! juice stains! Public transport in this country is a bloody disgrace.

wheels in a binbag, frame in another/strapped to case. Then it's luggage. Or Brompton...

There are increasing numbers of guards at are ****s, I can vouch for that as I have to work with some of them (-driver for Northern TOC). Most are OK, but the jobsworth minority are growing at every company. And yes, the bike booking system is just an exercise in frustration. Whatever you do don't get caught with/using the carriage key (I assume by 'turnkey' you have a T-key type carriage key). Unauthorised access of any kind even for access to your own bike could be taken well-over-the-top seriously and you could have all sorts levelled at you. If you're on a train and you think the guard's forgotten you at your stop pull the passcomm. You'd be surprised how many numpty guards forget about wheelchair passengers needing assistance off the train, never mind bikes locked away.

Take enough brown paper, neatly folder + a roll of Sellotape. If guard gets snotty, off come the wheels and wrap the whole thing in paper and tape. Magic - luggage!

I've witnessed this (or variations of) twice at London bridge where the station staff won't even let you onto the platforms with a bike in peak travel times. Once where a chap had obviously done it before and whipped the kit out of a rucksack, the other when the cyclist ran into WH Smiths and bought said roll of wrapping paper and tape.

Or Brompton

Yeah great idea, just hold the train whilst I nip to the bike shop. And give me £500 whilst you are there, cheers.

I need to carry up to a week's worth of luggage, Brompton won't carry it, otherwise I might try it. If I had the money, which I don't.

Oh, and guess what, my ticket's not valid any more is it? So the train company help themselves to my money and give me naff all in return. Great.

Having thought about it, the guard probably shouldn't have let me on because she didn't know if anyone down the line would have a reservation. So someone could have been in BrickMan's position and not been able to get on despite having a reservation.

The real issue was nationalrail.co.uk and the First Great Western ticket machine at Cardiff, neither of which gave any inkling that I might need a bike reservation.

Woffle - we used to do that back when you had to pay, using a bed sheet and a couple of straps.

do what everyone else who's had the same experience does and drive next time.

If my car wasn't out of use I'd have considered it. Mind you I doubt I'd have had a much better experience on the M5/M6

the RRBs don't take bikes

If you book online do they warn you of any engineering work?
If you try book a bike place in advance and there's going to be an RRB will they prevent the booking or say "thankyou for you money, have a nice journey"?

train travel eh, when it goes well it's a joy, when it goes wrong you are ****ed

Looks like I'd better invest in a folder.

Next question, what folder that rides well and can take panniers?

Never had any problems with Virgin trains. Always pre-booked my bike (always pre-booked my entire ticket - it's cheaper) on Virgin AND First Great Western.

Staff on trains at both companies have always been helpful and efficient.

Must be me.

[i]Looks like I'd better invest in a folder.[/i]

Or since you are on company business, just drive?

If you book train tickets using the East Coast website, you can make bike reservations online, which saves the tiresome phone call to India. You get a bike reservation ticket to show to the jobsworth guard, which is handy when they claim the bike spaces are all taken ("here's my reservation, you must've let someone else on without checking"). It's amazing how space can magically be found in such situations...

Or since you are on company business, just drive?

200 miles at rush hour, through Birmingham, when I've got work to do?

No ta.

Molly: there are sooo many reasons why Virgin Trains insist on a reservation I could write a good page full here.

Edited highlights are:
1) The Pendolinos were designed in the mid 90's against a backdrop where flying was the travel mode of choice (esp. between Manchester/Liverpool and London). The whole 'experience' was designed to rival the feel of an aircraft. Cycling was definitely a minority activity so cycle carrying was a very low priority. Hence, the cycle space is a non-public area accessed by T-key only.

2) In order to make the cycle area 'public' a HUGE amaount of work and cost is required (not just changing the door operating buttons, but assessing platform lengths/clearances etc etc etc)

3) Because a T-key is required, loading and unloading of cycles has to be supervised - usually by station staff, given the on-board safety responsibilities of the Train Manager. I echo the point made above, if you're caught using one then woe betide you if the TM is a bit 'jobsworth'.

4) If you don't have a reservation, nobody knows you are there so the chances of being over-carried are significant - a reservation ensures that all parties are informed. Train Managers and Station staff have notification that you are there. (I expect someone will be along in a minute to state that they had a reservation and this happened anyway.....)

5) The time to load/unload a bike if no-one is there ready to open the door can be 2 or 3 minutes. It doesn't sound like much, but on certain services this can be the difference between a right-time arrival and 20 to 30 minutes late if the train misses it's slot on a certain stretch of track. One inconvenienced cyclist verses up to 300 people 20 minutes late is quite a simple decision to make. The delay minutes would be attributed to the train manager should they occur and they would be 'asked to explain' why they had not upheld the reservations policy.

6) There are 100's of incidents annually for every operator that result in late trains that involve bikes, so some operators have tried to give themselves a chance and insist on a reservation. The level at which that reservation policy is implemented varies due to all of the above factors.

It's of little comfort to you having been left without onward travel, but it is an issue that is taken very seriously by many operators.

I believe there is a twitter account (@virgintrains) that you could use to complain.

Me: Since I actually bought a first class ticket for this journey yesterday and I couldn't complete my journey yesterday due to the bike problem, is there any chance I can sit in first today?

Guard: No

Me: You absolute arsehole

[i]I grab the guard by the throat and push him up against the toilet door, administering two swift punches to the stomach then let go. As he doubles up I smash my knee into his face[/i]

Me: I've had just about enough of this petty jobsworth arseholery you objectionable bastard! AAARGH!

[i]Further violence similar to the printer scene from Office Space[/i]

THE END

Note some of the above may not have happened.

Blob on a stick - those are good points, and I do acknowledge that the guard probably had no choice given the circumstances and the real blame lies with nationalrail where I checked times and the FGW machine that sold me the ticket - neither of which hinted that I may need a reservation. Given the possible consequences of not knowing that there would be a problem (ie stranding) I think they should be much clearer.

However:

If you don't have a reservation, nobody knows you are there so the chances of being over-carried are significant - a reservation ensures that all parties are informed

FGW, Southern and others seem to manage quite happily without any of that. Bike space is always limited.

But do you need to be supervised on and off the train on FGW, Southern etc?

No. I can't see why they can't replace the turnkey with a button to be honest, then it'd be no different to the FGW trains.

see point 2

2) In order to make the cycle area 'public' a HUGE amaount of work and cost is required (not just changing the door operating buttons, but assessing platform lengths/clearances etc etc etc)

Elaborate. I can't see it.

Pendolinos were designed in the mid 90's against a backdrop where flying was the travel mode of choice ... The whole 'experience' was designed to rival the feel of an aircraft

It didn't work then.

Never has a Pendolino felt like it was 20,000 ft off the ground. Neither has the carriage been filled with stale dry air. Never has a stewardist brought me a plastic meal. I've never been informed what the weather's like at my destination by the posh bloke driving the thing. I often get a table with loads of leg room, & power for a laptop.

In what way is any of this like flying?

I can't see it

Sadly many of the problems so easily overcome by armchair critics of the railway are far more complex than they first appear.

The turn-key open/close buttons have a different interaction with the train control systems than a normal push-button door. That means some significant and expensive alterations to the train and it's systems would be required(possibly involving a complete re-run of all the assessments against railway standards for the whole train.)

The position of the door at the far end of the train means that there is a potential for it to be off the end of a platform, or on an extremely narrow section of platform, or close to a nearby structure/bench/signal post etc. the gap between platform and train/step edge may be too great or too high. If this was to become a publicly-operated door each platform would have to be measured/assessed and potentially corrected to allow public access.

The location of the cycle storage area is behind the driver's cab. The driver needs to access the cab through this area. Free access to this area for 'any number' of cycles has a very great potential to trap the driver in the cab. This for many number of reasons is really not safe and not necessarily for the driver alone.

Like I said, there are pages and pages that could be written about cycles on trains and the ins and outs. By far and away the easiest solution is to insist on reservations and stick to it.

Next question, what folder that rides well and can take panniers?

Birdy for panniers. But you can easily carry a suitcase upright on the back of a brompton, strapped to rack and seat tube/saddle. Or you can take panniers. I'd go with a case, myself for a week's clothing. And of course the front bag

BlobOnAStick - Member
By far and away the solution that is least inconvenient to the railway company, and damn the customer, is to insist on reservations and stick to it.

Interesting reading and, I'm sure, all valid points.

But I'm really not seeing why, [i]on an empty train,[/i] designated bike storage aside the guard couldn't have just let him take the bike and stash it in the corner where pushchairs and such usually go. Especially when the alternative, as far as he knew, was for our esteemed colleague spending the night on a park bench.

So basically, if you need to travel with a bike, try and avoid Virgin as much as possible, due to a series of poor/non bike friendly decisions over the years.

That sound fair?

Btw I don't agree with the argument about there being a risk of the door being off the platform - if it were, we wouldn't be able to press the button would we? However if the cab is accessible from that spot then that's fair enough - would be a bad idea to open that up to the public. Still a stupid train design though.

Anyone remember those great big guards' vans where you could stick any amount of bike and stuff in a big cage?

It still isn't over btw - I left my phone at home, and the email with directions to the site didn't come through.. given up for now and having a coffee whilst I try to find where I need to be.

Anyone remember those great big guards' vans where you could stick any amount of bike and stuff in a big cage?

Mercifully, First Great Western still use the old intercity type trains on the Cardiff/ London service, which have a proper compartment for bikes at the front of coach A, and you don't need a guard to get on/ off. No dount electricifcation of the line will see the introduction something much worse for cyclists..

Whilst I sypathise with the OP being left behind (which really shouldnt have happened and worth complaining about), bike reservations have been required since the 90's at least and isn't something new.
However its completely unjustifiable to leave a passenger behind, esp if its the last train north.

BlobOnAStick, with that type of can do attitude, you should get a job with Virgin trains.

Thanks Fourbanger! Compliments indeed! 😀

I'm merely pointing out why there are rules around this particular issue. If there was anything I could do to change the situation, then I would be doing it.

You can use Virgin Trains with a bike as much as you like, just make the reservation.

I've been seen with a Tkey many a time, mostly nobody asks, but once a guard/ticket gadge came up and asked me when he came for tickets later and asked if I was the one who let themselves onto the train, I said 'yeah I work for Nexus Metro in the north east so carry it around as its useful!' he said yeah, but just don't get seen by station staff.

I actually did work for nexus and half their units are actually operated by the things!

Also had lots of chats with TFL & transport police over the years because of my hobbies, but thats another matter, and generally they are sound, bar the odd one.

4) If you don't have a reservation, nobody knows you are there so the chances of being over-carried are significant - a reservation ensures that all parties are informed. Train Managers and Station staff have notification that you are there. (I expect someone will be along in a minute to state that they had a reservation and this happened anyway.....)

I've got off a train at Lancaster with my bike, to be informed by the station staff that someone at Euston [i]should[/i] have told them I was there, but didn't. Which seemed odd to me because one of the members of staff at Euston instantly jumped on me and asked me for my bike reservation when he saw I had a bicycle.

In any case, the biggest pain in the arse for me is actually getting hold of a bike reservation. As far as I can gather, you have two options. Option 1, going to Euston station and sorting it all out at the ticket office in one go (not all that convenient for me and I live in London, and significantly less convenient for others I'm sure). Still, this is what I'll be doing next time, as before I went to option 2 and it was much harder than it should have been.

Option 2 is to ring up Virgin and book it all over the phone (no bike booking is available online). However, to do this the ticket agent had to take all my details, then go through and talk to the back office to make sure there was a bike space free, then come back to me, actually book my train, then go back and talk to the back office again to finally book the bike on. However last time, the bike spaces actually ran out in between her checking and booking the train for me, leading to somewhat less convenient journey times. I know it's all first world problems etc., but I wouldn't mind having to have a reservation if it wasn't such a PITA to acquire one.

Pro-tip:

east coast website lets you:

a) book for any train
b) book a bike reservation online!

The other way that Virgin (and other companies) could reduce the likelihood of there being no spaces when you turn up unannounced with your bike would be to provide more spaces.....

[b]BlobOnAStick[/b] thanks for that - I had no idea about the difficulties (apart from getting off once aboard!), so I'll be less lax in future 🙂

Trains here don't insist on reservations. They have areas on the modern trains like SWTrains do where the seats fold up and you can stand bikes. On older trains they have hooks so you can dangle them from the roof and two sets of seats for the riders (so basically a quarter of a carriage just for bikes and riders right behind the driver or at the other end of the train). Hasn't appeared to cause drivers to die, people to fall of platforms, the four horsemen to descend on the country nor the fall of civilisation.

So I'm guessing it's not beyond the wit of the train people in the UK to make their trains bike friendly. The problem is they don't give a shit.

I've been seen with a Tkey many a time

So I'm guessing it's not beyond the wit of the train people in the UK to make their trains bike friendly. The problem is they don't give a shit

The bike carriages should be in the middle of the train so there is none of this cant get off because the platform is too short. B*ll*x.

Hopefully when they design the next set of trains they will take this into account but they probably wont.

The other way that Virgin (and other companies) could reduce the likelihood of there being no spaces when you turn up unannounced with your bike would be to provide more spaces.....

Absolutely. I've never understood why demand for a service seems to always be seen as a problem, rather than an opportunity. If I knew that taking my bike on the train was going to be a painless and straightforward process I would probably spend a shedload more money on travelling by train rather than on driving.

I loved the bike carriages I saw in Germany. Big empty carriages with fold down seats around the edges. Anyone can use the seats, but if bikes come on they take priority.

The trouble is a lot of the UKs long distance routes are running close to capacity, with a limit on how long the trains can be.
The comparison with SWT / Southern, however is a little unfair as many of their services run half hourly or less and generally only take 90mins end to end. Virgin / East Coast / First Great Western have considerably longer routes running on lower frequencies.
So do you:-
a) Carry half a carriage of fresh air around on every trip to cater for a minority which generates little or no additional revenue?
or
b) Fill that same train with as many seats as possible to maximise revenue and capacity?

Or they could change the stock depending on time of day. Why should you have to reserve a spot on a train on a weekday evening when the trains are often half empty?

More likely c) start charging for bikes.

You can use Virgin Trains with a bike as much as you like, just make the reservation.

No you can't, because they don't have enough spaces for bikes.

atlaz - Member

Or they could change the stock depending on time of day. Why should you have to reserve a spot on a train on a weekday evening when the trains are often half empty?

well they have these great big depots with carriages and stuff in them where they can store them. they have this thing called planning where they can work out what rolling stock is needed and when

they have this thing called planning

You seem to be confused. We're discussing rail companies.

Trouble is if the stock is sat around all day its not earning its keep, so effectively costing the TOC. (They rent most stock from ROSCOs so if its not earning its costing!)
Thats why most maintenance is done at night, outside peak times. So aside from a few spare sets (to cover for breakdowns etc) there isn't much spare stock lying around.
Not like the 70's or 80's where there was lots of spare stock all over the country.

As someone already mentioned above - why not have seats which can be folded up to allow bike son and down when not required?

Southern trains (annoying website packed full of tracking cookies) have a booking thing online for bikes, and you can see the availability on different trains, but you have to check some obscure box early on.

Hopefully when they design the next set of trains

Hah, I'll probably be dead by then. FGW trains are 50 years old if they're a day.

no trains on west coast mainline due to landslide at Carlisle and around trhat area,and the east coast mainline is also closed.

NR have no idea as to when both are going to reopen

Which reminds me - I need to book the train on my return journey.

Molgrips, the HSTs were first introduced in 1977, so you're only 15 years out.....

I won't use Virgin trains on principle - even if I don't have my bike. A small protest I know, but it makes me happy.

For information, this is a bit of a shocker from Arriva Trains Wales' website:

Carriage of bicycles is always at the discretion of train staff, even if you have a reservation

That could cause some issues..!

So now I have a choice - get home at say 7.30pm but travel on an Arriva Trains crappo train for 2.5 hours, or stay later, get more done, travel in first class and get home at 9.30... hmm...

I was given the same info from First Transpennine when I called to book.

me: "So I can't actually reserve a space for my bike"
person: "Yes you can. But you might not be allowed on"

me: " So I can't actually reserve a space for my bike"

etc

etc

etc

when is a reservation not a reservation?
.
..
...
....
sorry were you waiting for a punchline?