[Closed] Views on men in drag for charity

Struggling to see the offence really caused here. However, I can imagine the hospice worrying that it’s all going to be a bit ‘I’m a lady!’ trans insensitive for the times. Pantomime is next.

Personally I've always found men in drag offensive to women.

Pretty poor effort on the drag front, looks more like Grannies?

That aside, I get where the charity are coming from. Local festival in These Here Parts involves local rugby team doing "fancy dress". They have only recently curbed the black-face costumes.

I am sure without much effort they could come up with costumes that don't offend people. It is only fun when everybody is having fun!

It's political correctness gone mad!!!

@gauss1777 - are you a woman? One of my daughter's favourite TV shows is Drag Race..

Trans rights groups are particularly vociferous on social media. I can understand why charities might choose to avoid a potential social media storm.

It is only fun when everybody is having fun!

Or as long as everyone remembers their ‘safe’ word 😃

Not clicking on the link.

But in my old job I did lots of pastoral work with teens. I remember vividly spending time with one young student who was making decisions about their gender identity. Deciding if they were 'brave enough' to wear a dress around school which they felt most comfortable in but tradition dictated would be unusual. They made the decision, set a date and planned what they were to wear. So proud of them when the event came around and they came down the stairs all dressed up with a massive smile.

Unbeknown to them (and me) a group of the 'likely lads' (to paraphrase - alpha male, rugby players) decided the same event would be a right laugh to pitch up to in drag. Camp it up for the laughs. Not in any way intended to offend or belittle the other student and not done knowing the importance of the date to them or what they were going to do. Just a terrible coincidence. But the impact was felt and it was real. They felt their decision was being humiliated because this group were (sort of) doing the same thing for laughs - to look ridiculous. QED they looked ridiculous. It took months to unravel that.

I'd say in time (and not too long) blokes in drag for the jokes at a stag do (or charity do) will be viewed the same way as a stag do in black face would be viewed now. 3 years has passed since the incident above and I'd say most 16-20 years olds already get it. It's just us old codgers who need to catch up.

Pretty poor effort on the drag front, looks more like Grannies?

That's part of the whole vibe - they buy the crappest outfits possible from the hospice charity shop, raise loads of money for the hospice, then donate the crap dresses back to the charity shop, so they can be re-sold

I feel a bit conflicted about this as it feels rather 70s to me - but on the other hand I have organised entertainment shows in nursing homes I worked in ( staff doing the acts) and the drag acts always got the biggest laughs

I think storm in a teacup really and a bit OTT from the hospice but I get where they are coming from

Isn't this just another one of those occasions where people ask us to sponsor them to climb Kilimanjaro or cycle across Africa or something else they've always really wanted to do but lacked the excuse?

Isn’t this just another one of those occasions where people ask us to sponsor them to climb Kilimanjaro or cycle across Africa or something else they’ve always really wanted to do but lacked the excuse?

Eh?

I’d say in time (and not too long) blokes in drag for the jokes at a stag do (or charity do) will be viewed the same way as a stag do in black face would be viewed now.

That's what I was thinking. Obviously there is fundamentally nothing wrong with men wearing women's clothes. In this case the motivation is important. I feel people do this to make themselves look ridiculous ("for a laugh") and choosing this method may not be something a charity want to be associated with and probably should be consigned to the past

Isn’t this just another one of those occasions where people ask us to sponsor them to climb Kilimanjaro or cycle across Africa or something else they’ve always really wanted to do but lacked the excuse?

Subtle 🤣

I feel people choose to do this to make themselves look ridiculous (“for a laugh”)

This is really the answer, I think. We've created an environment where we encourage and enable people to consider and experiment with sexuality, gender, etc, and we need to ensure that that environment supports those people, not makes fun of them, remembering that many will be young and /or vulnerable in various ways.

It's very difficult to look at this objectively and think beyond 'so you're a man wearing women's clothing and that is meant to encourage me to give to a charity'. What's the driver for it?

'Full Member'

footflaps
Full Member
It’s political correctness gone mad!!!

nah, you want to read this for true madness...

https://meaww.com/oberlin-studentscared-as-cisgender-men-installed-radiators-dorms

From a non Binary perspective.

I don't like it. It enforces the belief that men in dresses or skirts are freaks, figures of fun to be laughed at. Real men only do it for a bet, to humiliate a stag or to raise money because it's so freaky.

Those who are trans, or non binary do not want to be seen as freaks. We just want to wear what we want and present how we feel comfortable without being laughed at or ridiculed.

So your mates put on dresses and go to pubs encouraging people to laugh at them in exchange for a few quid in the collection bucket. Lots of "whay heys" and "show us your tits love". All good fun and no harm done. Then I walk in wearing a skirt and heels, what reaction will I get?

Oh and a trans or non binary man in a dress is not the same as drag. Drag is a character performance. It's like dressing up as a unicorn or something.

I'm not going to get angry about it if people do it, but it's not right and not really acceptable these days. We've moved on. It's not the 1970's anymore.

@boriselbrus I’m with you, this belongs in a different era. It’s not “political correctness”, a right wing invented term, like “woke”. It’s politeness and caring for other human beings.

+1 boriselbrus. Well said.

I clicked on the link. I'll probably survive.

Odd story. Is the event they take part in - the "Leo Sayer All Dayer" what it appears to be, an all-day pub session?

I'm also reading that the charity thanked these rugby club guys on social media etc, but didn't include their photo. This has caused the outrage.

In response, despite supporting this specific charity for 18 years, the rugby club members involved have chosen to continue the drag, but support a different charity as they think this is - quoted - PC gone mad.

This apparently started because when they first went to the charity shop many years ago, no men's clothing fitted them. Believable.

Hmmm. I'm with the charity on this one.

I think the history of drag stretches well over a hundred years, and in entertainment was the norm in the military, navy etc. Cant see what the problem is these days.

characters in panto are in drag too both male and female. Not putting pics up on the site is PC wokeness gone mad.

Its not a million miles from blacking up is it?

The hospice didn't use the photograph they sent and a man that dresses up as a woman went in a huff.

If it makes it into the mail it's not really news, it's a bit like showing Benny Hill vids for charity, more imagination and cultural awareness required.

So your mates put on dresses and go to pubs encouraging people to laugh at them in exchange for a few quid in the collection bucket. Lots of “whay heys” and “show us your tits love”. All good fun and no harm done. Then I walk in wearing a skirt and heels, what reaction will I get?

Surely context has everything to do with it? In the first case everyone knows its for a laugh and is in on the joke. In the second case, I assume most just think 'that's a bit odd' and just carry on doing whatever they were doing.

Pre-Covid, when we used to go to work, we had a few non-binary / transgender / obviously ex men dressed in womens clothes on our business park and everyone just ignored them (inc one who dressed in the most dayglow pink outfits you could possibly imagine which was quite hard to ignore as it nearly burnt your retinas).

But if a charity you'd supported for 18 years said something like "could you just be, like, Transformers or something for us" would you really feel the need to die on that hill and ditch the charity? Time moves on, surely it's about the fundraising, yes?

would you really feel the need to die on that hill and ditch the charity?

Who knows what really happened. Maybe they quite liked having a laugh and wanted to dress up in drag and just found another cause to support - possibly they weren't wedded to that charity very much. Eg we have a work sponsered charity which someone decided on ages ago, I have zero emotional attachment to it and if it changed tomorrow to another one, I wouldn't give it a second thought.

are you a woman? One of my daughter’s favourite TV shows is Drag Race..

No, I am not a woman. But, to me it says 'we are men and this is how we picture women' ie women should dress in high heels, fishnet tights etc etc. You never see men dress as women by putting on jeans and a jumper. It just rankles.

A Leo Sayer is indeed an all day drinking session. No one told them not to do it. The drinkers' money was accepted. Their photo wasn't used in charity publicity. The drinkers phoned for a huff and left in it.

I mean, I like a good culture war as much as the next complacent ****, but can't really see a story here. If only I could think of a fitting pic...

 I have zero emotional attachment to it and if it changed tomorrow to another one, I wouldn’t give it a second thought.

I was getting the vibe you were backing the dressing-up-for-charity dudes in the story, but that is savage 😂

I was getting the vibe you were backing the dressing-up-for-charity dudes in the story, but that is savage

I have to confess to attending a few fancy dress parties in drag, so I have some sympathy 😉

It would appear that the Daily Mail article is factually incorrect, who would have thought it?

The DM claimed that there had not been one single complaint.

According to another source the hospital has said that they received complaints some years back :

https://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/19660159.hospice-says-truly-sorry-got-decision-wrong-upton-rugby-club-drag-fundraiser/

The simplest solution to the problem is not to get offended.

That would definitely solve the problem.

Dressing up as a woman for amusement purposes is as legitimate as any other reason imo.

It's not a right "owned" by women and transexuals anymore than dressing up as a man is a right reserved for men.

Surely context has everything to do with it? In the first case everyone knows its for a laugh and is in on the joke. In the second case, I assume most just think ‘that’s a bit odd’ and just carry on doing whatever they were doing.

So it would be fine to dress up as say a golly*** for a laugh would it? Go to a pub, raise a bit of money? Then a black person walks in and wouldn't feel even a bit uncomfortable?

Sorry, but it's offensive. The days of laughing at men for wearing skirts is over. David Walliams and Matt Lucas have said the same.

Edit.
Oh FFS Ernie, is the solution to racism or sexism just to not be offended? Or is the solution to try to not offend?

David Walliams and Matt Lucas have said the same.

I don't think having a hit TV show gives you some sort moral right to dictate how other people may dress or what constitutes humour. Fascinating as their opinions might be.

Oh FFS Ernie, is the solution to racism or sexism just to not be offended? Or is the solution to try to not offend?

I don't believe in one solution fits all.

If the problem is racism and sexism then it is obviously a different problem to the one being discussed here.

Not sure how best to put this...I don't much care if men dress up as women, therefore a group of men dressing up as women for comedic purposes strikes me as slightly uncomfortable.

And I think this is why it's in the Mail, it is intended to appeal to the crusty gammon that thinks the opposite, nothing wrong with proper rugby playing heterosexuals dressing up for a laugh, not so sure about the real ones though...sort of thing.

I think the history of drag stretches well over a hundred years, and in entertainment was the norm in the military, navy etc. Cant see what the problem is these days

It was explained, just a few posts before yours.

If the problem is racism and sexism then it is obviously a different problem to the one being discussed here.

Is it? Pray tell show your working.

Or do you think the difference is 'choice'?

I don’t think having a hit TV show gives you some sort moral right to dictate how other people may dress or what constitutes humour. Fascinating as their opinions might be.

Because they had a very well known set of characters who were men dressing as ladies in order to get laughed at and they have now said that they don't think they should be doing that any more.

If the problem is racism and sexism then it is obviously a different problem to the one being discussed here.

So you really can't see that mocking a marginalised demographic for their identity is really not acceptable any more? Wow. I really thought you were better than that. And yes it is sexist as well as it portrays women as the high heels, short skirt wearing, dolly birds beloved by 70's sitcoms. Does the fact the story is in the Daily Mail not tell you something?

I think the history of drag stretches well over a hundred years, and in entertainment was the norm in the military, navy etc. Cant see what the problem is these days.

Oh great. The "it's traditional for entertainment" excuse. Well done. Bring back public executions and the stocks.

Because they had a very well known set of characters who were men dressing as ladies in order to get laughed at and they have now said that they don’t think they should be doing that any more.

TBH weren’t actually more caricatures of terrible behaviour sort of holding a mirror up to society rather than just a giggle at a bloke deliberately badly dressed as a lady.

I did like the vomiting racist lady and computer says no thou.

Just wanted to thank boriselbrus for their comments, I had no real opinion of the subject and initially thought ‘why the fuss’, but their comments have educated me, I now have a better understanding and can see why it can be so offensive

Just wanted to thank boriselbrus for their comments, I had no real opinion of the subject and initially thought ‘why the fuss’, but their comments have educated me, I now have a better understanding and can see why it can be so offensive

Hear hear. You would have to be activity looking to not comprehend to not have empathy after reading thier clear explanation.

+1 @Houns

A typical case of Political Correctness gone mad, gone mad. Time moves on, public attitudes change but it's a slow process and there is a lot of drag from the old guard, mostly the same people who want to go back to the 1950s, digging their heels in. Probably a generational condition.
(I spotted the puns as I wrote)

Views on men in drag for charity

Doesn't it boil down to "I don't find it particularly amusing, but each to their own"? While I'm not insensitive to the ways in which it may affect those in a more gender-fluid or gender-uncertain space, I'm very wary about the concept of ownership of a particular space by a certain group, and the current trend for banning or demanding the banning of certain behaviours along the lines of "you can't do that, that's *my* space!".

Now I'm at a keyboard for typing rather than a phone let me put a bit more detail in this.

What's the harm? It's just a bit of fun...

I was born in 1972. I knew I was different from the start. I wanted to wear clothes like my sister did, have long hair and play with dolls. I knew it was weird because no-one else was like me. I spent years agonising about this. I wanted to tell my parents so they would buy me a dress. They were kind and loving so it would be fine wouldn't it?

Then when I was about 9 we were all watching TV. It was The Two Ronnies or Morecombe and Wise or similar. The two charactors came on wearing dresses. The audience erupts. It was the funniest thing ever. They didn't tell jokes or do anything, the whole gag was two men wearing dresses. The audience laughter was the real screeching laughter. I was just locked in position. Then I was aware that my parents and sister were laughing as well. It was a massive joke. A man in a dress what could be funnier. I was absolutely mortified, I knew I could never be myself and I'd spend my life as a lie.

The programme finished. I went upstairs and embarked on a 20 year programme of self harm interspersed with a few half hearted suicide attempts. My parents would hate me if they ever knew the real me. I will never come out to Mum.

So where's the harm in laughing at men in dresses? Well think of a 9 year old sitting in his bedroom slashing away at his arms with a penknife, then tell me where the harm is.

I was gonna say don't go dressing up as a carrot for fancy dress, you might upset the vegetarians... but the above has rather put a dampener on it.

Double post, no idea why

So you really can’t see that mocking a marginalised demographic for their identity is really not acceptable any more? Wow. I really thought you were better than that.

I think big burly guys dressing up as women is more a case of mocking themselves rather than any marginalised demographics.

And I think it is probably remarkably easy not to get offended by it. I assume that the BBC, which is sensitive to the issue of offending viewers, presumably receives very few complaints with regards to Mrs Brown's Boys.

Not getting offended by someone dressed up in a grotesque racial caricature manner might however be more difficult.

Commonsense would dictate to most people that Brendan O'Carroll playing a role which required him to dress up as a golliwog would be deeply offensive and nowhere as acceptable as dressing up as a middle-aged woman.

I would still however always urge people wherever possible not to get offended. Very few people have the capability to offend me and allowing yourself to be offended almost always satisfies the person who is attempting to offend you.

I assume your comment "I really thought you were better than that" wasn't designed to be a compliment, I will however strive not to be offended. So no need to apologise for questioning my integrity 😊

I was gonna say don’t go dressing up as a carrot for fancy dress, you might upset the vegetarians… but the above has rather put a dampener on it.

Agreed.

There is always someone who is offended by something or a lack of something, so if you set out to offend no one you've failed before you've even started.

It slightly smacks my gob, that, after reading boriselbrus's posts, people still think that, effectively, "it's just a bit of fun, don't take it so seriously" is a reasonable response.

Well, no one has said anything on this thread that offends me.

However, several people have said, and are continuing to say things, which are hopelessly (and at this point I would say willfully because I honestly can't understand how you can read what boriselbrus wrote and continue to spout the same shite about 'offense') ignorant.

I don't find you offensive. I just think you're arseholes.

It slightly smacks my gob, that, after reading boriselbrus’s posts, people still think that, effectively, “it’s just a bit of fun, don’t take it so seriously” is a reasonable response.

The Two Ronnies and Morecombe and Wise was definitely just a bit of fun.

Boriselbrus has obviously experienced some traumatic emotional issues in life, which is clearly extremely unfortunate.

I don't accept that the solution to issues which boriselbrus might have personally experienced is to categorise cross dressing humour as offensive.

Before Boris' reply, I thought it was stupid and faintly insensitive. Plus it's not funny. Now I can see why it could be properly offensive and of course, it remains unfunny*.

See also: Mrs Brown's Boys.

I don’t find you offensive. I just think you’re arseholes.

lol

Ru Paul has said

"I do not impersonate females! How many women do you know who wear seven-inch heels, four-foot wigs, and skintight dresses?"

He also said,

"I don't dress like a woman; I dress like a drag queen!"

Dressing as a woman has a long history in Industrial and social striking and civil disobedience as well, going as far back as the middle ages, and the opposite; women dressing as men to either join the Army, Navy or Pirates is pretty common, hell the French even celebrate a cross dresser as an historic national treasure.

While boriselbrus childhood experience sounds awful, and I've every sympathy, I don't think folks dressing as the opposite sex for a laugh, or for politics,  is going away any time soon.

The Two Ronnies and Morecombe and Wise was definitely just a bit of fun.

decades ago. Social attitudes change. Both look very dated now

How about "love thy neighbour" - would you see that sort of humour just as " a bit of fun?

The Two Ronnies and Morecombe and Wise was definitely just a bit of fun.

So was the Black and White Minstrel Show.

I don’t accept that the solution to issues which boriselbrus might have personally experienced is to categorise cross dressing humour as offensive.

Even though you've had first hand, detailed, testimony about why it causes offence. In fact, not offence, because that word has become meaningless really. It causes hurt. You still okay with it?

I don't know why I'm asking really.

I don’t accept that the solution to issues which boriselbrus might have personally experienced is to categorise cross dressing humour as offensive.

What do you mean by 'offensive'?

To me, being offensive is just a progression of being an arsehole to the point where you could end up being publicly shamed, lose your job, possibly face prosecution... etc.

This issue is not at the offensive stage yet. It's still at the 'bit of an arsehole thing to do' stage.

If people could just leave things be once they got to the arsehole stage then the world would be a happier place. Unfortunately, people are so invested in their personal freedom to do whatever the hell they want that you always get some who feel compelled to continue with their arsehole behaviour until it gets to the stage where the only people who are still doing it are out and out racists, homophobes, misogynists, transphobes, etc.

And at that point, yes, it becomes an offensive thing to do.

If you are so hell bent on making this an offensive thing then please carry on doing it/defending it. Otherwise can't we just agree it's an arsehole thing to do and leave it at that?

I always thought a good way to gauge humor was,

are you laugh up or laugh down at the subject.

if you are laughing down, then its effectively mocking the subject from a point of power.

In this case rugby guys getting dressed up as women for a laugh seems to me to be laughing down. i.e. the joke is by dressing as women that is "funny". Would it be as funny if a women's rugby team dressed as men?

The Two Ronnies and Morecombe and Wise was definitely just a bit of fun.

So was the Black and White Minstrel Show.

You walked into that one, Ernielynch!

I thought the STW forum was a bit of fun. How wrong I was.

Pre-Covid, when we used to go to work, we had a few non-binary / transgender / obviously ex men dressed in womens clothes on our business park and everyone just ignored them (inc one who dressed in the most dayglow pink outfits you could possibly imagine which was quite hard to ignore as it nearly burnt your retinas).

It may just be your particular choice of words, but do you think those people want ignored? Obviously, they don't want harrassed but I think treating people as though they are invisible is almost as bad as laughing at them.

I thought the STW forum was a bit of fun. How wrong I was.

It is, there are some [i]very[/i] witty people on here (and some proper arseholes too, mind). Making fun of people who have (historically) less power than you isn't funny though, it's just bullying, and bullies are ****s.

And yes it is sexist as well as it portrays women as the high heels, short skirt wearing, dolly birds beloved by 70’s sitcoms. Does the fact the story is in the Daily Mail not tell you something?

mmm... you didn't look at the pictures did you? not a single high heel, and the skirts were barely above the knee. Probably the only thing 1970's about it was when the dresses were created... I can't work out if that makes it better or worse - but it certainly doesn't mean that a charity is under any obligation to (1) take money from anyone it doesn't want to or (2) promote the fundraisers on social media. Even if I worked at the charity and thought "probably no harm done" I'm not sure I'd want to put it on Social Media and deal with the inevitable flak and twitter storm that would ensue. Regardless of where you sit on the argument - the volunteer who deals with their twitter account probably doesn't need that stress or abuse in their life.

I notice that the new charity doesn't seem to have been named?

This issue is not at the offensive stage yet. It’s still at the ‘bit of an arsehole thing to do’ stage.

Did you read boriselbrus's post? We are talking about a 9 year old child self-harming and contemplating suicide as a result of watching the Two Ronnies. That's how offensive the Two Ronnies was, apparently.

A 9 year old child self-harming and contemplating suicide is a truly appalling crises. I personally don't recall ever hearing of anyone that young wanting to self-harm or end their lives.

And I don't personally believe that it all centred on watching a comedy programme loved by millions, whatever boriselbrus might say.

I don't think the Black and White Minstrel Show was supposed to be comedy btw. It was crap though.

apparently

Stay classy.

some proper arseholes too, mind

Aren't there just.

Did you read boriselbrus’s post? We are talking about a 9 year old child self-harming and contemplating suicide as a result of watching the Two Ronnies. That’s how offensive the Two Ronnies was, apparently.

A 9 year old child self-harming and contemplating suicide is a truly appalling crises. I personally don’t recall ever hearing of anyone that young wanting to self-harm or end their lives.

And I don’t personally believe that it all centred on watching a comedy programme loved by millions, whatever boriselbrus might say.

I don’t think the Black and White Minstrel Show was supposed to be comedy btw. It was crap though.

The thing is, I bet you're looking at things from a fairly privileged perspective (ie straight white male? Apologies if my assumption is wrong though, no offense meant m8y, just a bit of [i]fun[/i] etc...) so your opinion isn't really worth anything because you have no frame of reference and no experience of the feelings that boriselbrus had/has. Unless you do, in which case I apologise.

In my job I've had people assume I'm 'just' the help when in fact it's my business, I come up with the ideas and do the drawing and machining and people (men, pretty much) are amazed that 'just' a woman can think of and make all these clever little things and I'm ****ing bored of it.

So shit like this and other bullying behaviour can get right in the ****ing sea along with the ****s that perpetuate it.

Even though you’ve had first hand, detailed, testimony about why it causes offence.

There will be someone else who is triggered to self harm by something else.

Say, I wanted to be a good MTB rider but found out at 10 I was never gonna make it because I saw someone doing stuff I could never do. Do we ban MTB?

If someone is raped on a bus and then busses trigger self harm? Do we ban busses?

Or supposing someone is raped by blokes on a stag night dressed as Groucho Marx and then their trigger for self harm is stag nights themselves? We ban stag nights?

I suspect a lot of people have all kinds of triggers that take them to dark places. The Fast Show sketch where the guy can't hear the word black - that's based on fact, words can trigger.

My daughter smashed her face on a wooden post. If I see similar wooden posts it sends me to a pretty bad place.

I'm pretty sure Sarah Everard's family wouldn't want to see a stag night party dressed as policemen.

So I think stopping doing things for fear of triggering bad things in people is a non stater and if we want to do that I'm pretty sure the most urgent things to ban won't be remotely clothing related.

Did you read boriselbrus’s post? We are talking about a 9 year old child self-harming and contemplating suicide as a result of watching the Two Ronnies. That’s how offensive the Two Ronnies was, apparently.

Offensive isn't about the effect on the individual, it's about society's awareness of the harm that seemingly harmless things can cause.

Gender fluidity is a concept that we, as a society, are only just starting to tackle. It's still possibly to act thoughtlessly. It would be nice if someone said, 'Maybe you should think twice about doing that' then normal people would actually stop, have a think, and decide that with the new knowledge and understanding we have we should adjust our behaviour and attitudes.

Unfortunately, instead of actually listening to the personal stories of people like boriselbrus' and others, some people choose (and it is a choice at this point, the ignorance is willful) to put their fingers in their ears and keep repeating, 'JUST DON'T BE OFFENDED, JUST DON'T BE OFFENDED, IT'S JUST A BIT OF FUN...'

So, to answer your question, I did read boriselbrus' post. Did you?

Stay classy.

Well I say apparently because I am assuming it was the Two Ronnies and not Morecombe and Wise. Despite the fact that it had such a profound affect boriselbrus can't be sure which show it was.

I don't recall Morecambe and Wise ever dressing up as women.

Nor do I necessarily accept that the trauma in boriselbrus life for the following 20 years was centred on a comedy show. A 9 year old doesn't go up to their bedroom to self-harm because of a telly comedy show. There must have been some truly bad things going on in boriselbrus's life.

OK, I'm done.

You're a ****ing piece of shit.

Ban me, I don't care.

Trans rights groups are particularly vociferous on social media. I can understand why charities might choose to avoid a potential social media storm.

Unfortunately, the whole debate surrounding Gender identity etc, has been poisoned by a small number of individuals who are almost always quite young, extremely opinionated, yet also quite ignorant. People who seek to impose their own views as correct, yet not listen to anyone else and scream 'phobe!' at anyone who dares question them, whilst dismissing anyone with a different opinion as 'wrong'. Cultural cancellers. As a result, many people have got their undergarments in a twist, and are desperately trying to be nice' and not upset anyone. Trouble is, there's always going to be someone who is upset by something. That's life. But the real problem now is that many women's voices are being drowned out by hysterical screeching from an extremely vocal and abusive (and sometimes violent) minority. And then many people who haven't thought it through all that much (because it really wasn't considered an 'issue' by most in society until very recently) suddenly nail their colours to a mast without really knowing in what direction the ship is sailing.

And here's a great example:

Its not a million miles from blacking up is it?

It is. It really is. Go have a read about drag artists and the Stonewall riots.

@brucewee, online abuse is *far" more likely to trigger self harm than charity money raising in drag.

I'm pretty sure people have actually killed themselves. (In fact, I think someone on STW has.)

Agree?

Yeah probably time to close the thread. I can't see anything good coming from further discussions. Unless everyone agrees.

No, keep it open. Such discussions are well overdue.

Despite the fact that it had such a profound affect boriselbrus can’t be sure which show it was.

He was 9, ffs. And I'd imagine the fact that there were two fellas on the telly dressed as women, and everyone thought that was hilarious, was more important to him at the time than who the two fellas were.

A 9 year old doesn’t go up to their bedroom to self-harm because of a telly comedy show.

No, they go to their room and self-harm because they know that they are 'different' to everyone else and think that the world they're trying to grow up in won't ever accept them for who they are, and the telly comedy show is, to them, further proof of that.

There must have been some truly bad things going on in boriselbrus’s life.

There were, see above.

As for outofbreath's post, I don't know where to start really.

Well I say apparently because I am assuming it was the Two Ronnies and not Morecombe and Wise. Despite the fact that it had such a profound affect boriselbrus can’t be sure which show it was.

I don’t recall Morecambe and Wise ever dressing up as women.

Nor do I necessarily accept that the trauma in boriselbrus life for the following 20 years was centred on a comedy show. A 9 year old doesn’t go up to their bedroom to self-harm because of a telly comedy show. There must have been some truly bad things going on in boriselbrus’s life.

Jesus wept, you have absolutely no ****ing idea do you?

Hmmmm, I don't actually think it is "PC Gawwn Maaaaad!" really is it?

Rugger-buggers put on women's clothes whenever there's a Charadee event to fancy-dress-up for, it's about the craziest thing their imaginations can come up with I think.
It's pretty standard and forms part of their unconcious commentary on gender roles and attire I'm sure. Manly men subverting expectations by wearing old dresses blah, blah, blah... Were people offended? perhaps, a couple in passing, no big deal a decade ago, barely registers today TBH...

But times do change and now in 2021 an organisation that has to consider all perspectives on the publicity they put out there have simply decided to stop sharing those particular images on their website, just to avoid fuelling any would be offense-takers (label them "woke" if you must).
I don't think the charity are ungrateful for the effort or money raised, they're simply trying to head off a minor conflict/publicity issue every time they put up some photos.

Somewhat ironically the people getting most wound up by all of this, and taking offense are the "Anti-Woke" and "it all PC gone mad" crowd.

Mr Tomlinson added: 'We are going to continue to raise money, but for a different charity.

Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face. Why not simply carry on doing what you did before but in Hawaiian shirts and trilbies or something.

I do sometimes wonder who the "Professional offense takers" actually are...

Yeah probably time to close the thread. I can’t see anything good coming from further discussions. Unless everyone agrees.

Why? Cos you're in a position of weakness? Not a very nice place to be, is it?