[Closed] Vegans?

i think killing for "sport" is not the same as killing for food

i think many folk have ethical concerns with folk who kill for fun, not just vegans.

i think killing for "sport" is not the same as killing for food

You're right it's not but that was kind of my point as to why it's not necessary.

i think many folk have ethical concerns with folk who kill for fun, not just vegans.

Yeah I'm sure that's pretty obvious.

Have we done vegan kids yet? I admit it, mine have weak bones, no energy and look a bit pale.

I guess you won't be moving to Italy.

i think killing for "sport" is not the same as killing for food

i think many folk have ethical concerns with folk who kill for fun, not just vegans.

I would like you to consider this carefully and allow us to discuss this. Earlier you agreed with my point that

In the light of this proof, [b]we meat eaters should accept that we do it for pleasure[/b], and embrace that, rather than trying to come up with some spurious moralising about how carnivorism is necessary. For me it is enough that we enjoy it, that makes it necessary enough

Now as a meat eater, and a sometime hunter/self butcherer etc, I do enjoy the hunt - but I prefer to only hunt/kill for meat - but we agreed that I only eat meat for pleasure (IE I don't biolically require it)- therefore I am hunting/carnivoring for pleasure, correct?
Whilst I find hunting lions and other non "table" animals distasteful, I don't feel as a raging meat eater that I have a moral leg to stand on criticising the trophy hunters when I derive pleasure from the non necessary killing of animals.

Toys, you're my kind of meat eater. 🙂

therefore I am hunting/carnivoring for pleasure, correct?

We might be nearing the fallacy of equivocation here.

yes you enjoy eating meat and they enjoy killing things for fun. However you eat meat to survive and they kill it for fun. They are just not equivalent just because neither are truly necessary and both are fun.

Whilst i get your point[ and it was well made] - and trust me i have done these debates to death[ see what i did there]- everyone can see the difference between killing for food and killing for fun.

You may as well argue cycling and eat meat or "sport killing" are the same; all are "fun" and none are necessary

However you eat meat to survive and they kill it for fun.

They must go hand in hand. We wouldn't have evolved if we didn't enjoy hunting. Well, we might have evolved as somebody else's lunch.

They must go hand in hand. We wouldn't have evolved if we didn't enjoy hunting. Well, we might have evolved as somebody else's lunch.

I'm not convinced humans originally did it for shits and giggles.

not least because, without weapons,and long range ones at that, it's a pretty dangerous activity with a very real risk of injury and death. It was not sport it was survival.

These days its a safe place to just murder something for fun
you dont need to be vegan to have issues with this

I was out to dinner with a party of Indian colleagues this week, two of them are Jay/Jain vegan (shouldn't eat anything that kills the plant or kills other organisms when harvested, typically root vegetables). One doesn't eat or drink anything between dusk and dawn so that kept his share of the bill down, and the other eats root vegetables apart from onion and garlic because they are classified as bad foods under the scriptures he follows. He ordered some dahl without onion and garlic which must have been grim.
The point of the story? I respected him for his lifestyle/religious choice and he didn't criticise me for mine.

we agreed that I only eat meat for pleasure (IE I don't biolically require it)- therefore I am hunting/carnivoring for pleasure, correct?

I think what we have here is an uncomfortable truth.

I'm kinda coming at it from the other side; one of the answers to the inevitable "but wwhhhyyyyy??" question is that I'm fortunate enough to live in a society where I don't need to eat meat to survive, and vegetarian alternatives are varied and plentiful. I don't want to eat meat, I think it's a revolting practice, and crucially [i]I don't have to.[/i] So the question for me really isn't "why?" but rather "why not?"

I'd never judge anyone for eating meat (with the caveat I mentioned earlier), but we're glossing over the fact that it's almost entirely for selfish reasons. And I'm cool with that, in so far as animals are less "important" than people, but it's not for me.

I do wonder idly whether a lot of meat consumption is habitual. "We've always done it that way." I would neither want nor expect society to turn vegetarian overnight, but I think it'd be nice if we moved away from this collective obsession that [i]every [/i]dish has to contain some sort of dead animal in it otherwise it's lacking in some way.

I used to get hangover breakfasts with a friend of mine of a weekend. Sometimes he'd order pork sausages, sometimes vegetarian ones, not because he'd made some sort of part-time vegetarian lifestyle choice but rather that he liked them and didn't want to eat the same thing every time. It's a healthy attitude to have I think. I've known people avoid vegetarian options precisely because they're vegetarian, like they can't eat them, which always struck me as a bit odd.

TL:DR

Anyone mentioned bacon yet?

^Of course they haven't. What a highly original and amusing thing to say!

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To keep things topical, here's some bacon! Or otherwise known as pigs. More intelligent than dogs yet for some reason people think that this is a good way to treat an animal for it's entire life, just to end up satisfying someone's selfish desire for two minutes.

We live in a weird world when the people who don't want any part to play in this inhumanity are the ones labelled as 'extreme'.

Look as a bit under done.

Ok, nobody mention it, I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it!

We live in a weird world when the people who don't want any part to play in this inhumanity are the ones labelled as 'extreme'.

As an aside. I would label the treatment as inhuman, cruel yes, but inhumanity no.

you monster ! 😛

I wish more people would be Vegan.
There'd be more meat for others who aren't.

Did someone mention bacon?

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Fakeon. (-:

that is quite clearly Facon

Trying to work out what's "natural" about bacon seitan!

And where did this bacon obsession come from? I'm pretty sure it didn't exist 20 years ago.

I was vegetarian for a few years in the early 90s and the bacon "obsession" was a thing back then.

So you used to have morals but the finacial sector squeezed them all out of you 😉

I have no idea when i turned vegan you could get sizzles which was essentially a smoky bacon flavoured sosmix- powder mix in a packet. It was pretty rank and looked a bit like scottish sausage once mixed

no idea what bacon they did then as i never tried it and i dont remember any obsession - I am not part of the "scene" though

This was 1987 ish

I've tried quite a few meat free "bacon" offerings.

Shit, without fail.

I miss bacon.

There was a bacon-alike salmon product launched a couple of years ago but I've never seen it for sale.

(Yes, I do appreciate that vegans don't eat fish)

The only thing that I have found that has a similar textures and a bit of the taste of bacon is shiitake mushroom stalks, flattened, beaten, salted and then fried in olive oil. They have a similar texture to meat and a nice strong taste. It is not bacon, but close enough that the kids like it and thought it was meat first time they tried it.

some scientist has invented some weird thing that bleeds so it tastes like meat but i cannot find the link- apparently I can
http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/06/21/482322571/silicon-valley-s-bloody-plant-burger-smells-tastes-and-sizzles-like-meat

journo report of eating it- headline The Fake-Meat Burger So Realistic It Fooled My Entire Family article linky
http://www.bonappetit.com/entertaining-style/trends-news/article/impossible-burger-fake-meat

I think fake real meat has been on the telly box a year or so back. Very expensive at this stage but very interesting if it could be commercially viable.

Edit, think we'd may actually be talking about different things

its really not something i know anything about tbh i just saw a report on the guardian as I like to [s]break[/s]live up to stereotypes 😉

<only came on this thread to see what how excited JY was getting. !disappointed>

Have we mentioned onion bhajis yet?

Yes we have and i did not get it 😳

This has been a better discussion than usual

Yeh, the thing i was thinking of is cell culture meat.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/lab-grown-meat-is-in-your-future-and-it-may-be-healthier-than-the-real-stuff/2016/05/02/aa893f34-e630-11e5-a6f3-21ccdbc5f74e_story.html

$330k a burger

And where did this bacon obsession come from? I'm pretty sure it didn't exist 20 years ago.

It's a trope that all veggies are in denial and go to pieces at the prospect of a bacon buttie.

I think fake real meat has been on the telly box a year or so back

It's a really interesting question, in that if we can grow meat rather than killing animals for it, would veggies eat it?

Moreover, perhaps a more interesting question might be, would the carnivores stop eating animals in favour of it (assuming there's no compromise in taste / quality)?

It's not for me, but my reasons for being veggie aren't in the majority. I'd be interested to hear what both sides feel about lab meat.

There's this: http://www.seriouseats.com/2016/10/beyond-burger-impossible-burger-vegan-taste-test.html

It's a trope that all veggies are in denial and go to pieces at the prospect of a bacon buttie.

The trope seems to have grown with the internet, I suppose.

[quote=Cougar ]Moreover, perhaps a more interesting question might be, would the carnivores stop eating animals in favour of it?
It's not for me, but my reasons for being veggie aren't in the majority. I'd be interested to hear what both sides feel about lab meat.
Assuming it was proven as safe as farmed meat then if it tasted like, cooked like and had the texture of real meat then I can't think of a good reason I wouldn't switch to that (or even just include it in my variety of foods). However, while I can see that it might be possible to imitate some of the characteristics of farmed meat, after all, many of us find Quorn an acceptable substitute for mince, but, for example, bacon? I'm not convinced it would be possible to fabricate something that complex.

There's this

That was a really intriguing read, thank you.

The trope seems to have grown with the internet, I suppose.

That's true of all tropes I fear.

Assuming it was proven as safe as farmed meat then if it tasted like, cooked like and had the texture of real meat then I can't think of a good reason I wouldn't switch to that

Cool.

I'm not convinced it would be possible to fabricate something that complex.

Why is bacon more complex than other meats?

It's more complex than mince 🙂

It's not just the meat bit you'd need to get right. The flavour and texture of bacon is a combination of the meaty bits and the fat bits. Then there's folk that like it streaky, or crispy etc. A slice of gammon might be easier to fabricate.

Forget bacon, when the hell is someone going to make a fake doner kebab?

I only eat good meat, none of that intensive farming crap that doesn't even resemble meat. The way the worlds population is now and the way it's going it's just not sustainable to feed everyone on meat. I would rather eat a good vegetarian diet than a crap quality meat diet. Thankfully I don't need to and have the best of both worlds.

FWIW, the smell of bacon doesn't make me immediately want a bacon sarnie, in fact I never want a bacon sarnie, or bacon at any time, and the mere thought of a Full English makes me nauseous.
Liver? Eeeeewwwwww! Same goes for any offal, in fact I can't be arsed with most meat, but I'm more than happy to scoff a quality burger, a kebab from a man in a van after the pub, pepperoni snacks/pizza/pepperami and salami.
My first choice when eating out is chicken or fish/seafood, I like a good curry, or Chinese or sushi, and I've yet to be convinced by anyone that I should give up anything that I eat.
I've got to be 62 years of age eating what I do, because I enjoy the taste, I'm intrigued by some of these new alternatives and if they can be produced in large quantities cheaply and efficiently, without any environmental impact, then I'd be happy to eat them.
If survival dictated that if I wanted to eat meat to keep my protein intake up, and that meant catching, killing and processing animals, then I'm sure I could, but I'd prefer it to be done by someone who knows what they're doing so it's done properly and efficiently.

in that if we can grow meat rather than killing animals for it, would veggies eat it?

10 years ago I think i would but the fake meats taste rank to me and the closer the texture gets to meat the less i like it

I suspect that is the result of 30 years meat free though and the minority view

[quote=Junkyard ]in that if we can grow meat rather than killing animals for it, would veggies eat it?I woudl not
10 years ago I think i would but the fake meats taste rank to me and the closer the texture gets to meat the less i like it
I suspect that is the result of 30 years meat free though and the minority view

My Missus is vegetarian and has often rejected meat substitute dishes because they are too meat-like.

10 years ago I think i would but the fake meats taste rank to me and the closer the texture gets to meat the less i like it

Well, to be fair you've almost certainly not tried cultured meat. Hard to know whether it would also be rank!

That said, you're taste are likely so predisposed to a [s]yoghurt knitters[/s] vegan diet you'd probaly still not like it.

Edit, wot scotroute said really.

The rankness comes because i seem to no longer like the taste or texture of meat

I suspect stuff like that is more for healthy veggies/meaties or vegans who do it for health reasons rather than an "ethical" vegan like me

re: bacon trope;

Has anyone else actually seen a veggie/vegan "broken" by bacon? I only have one data point, so cannot yet join in any generic bacon based LOLs based on some possibly mythical inherent bacon lust.

My missus is vegetarian but I'm not. She spends half her time in France and half here in England. When she's away we'll eat meat 3-4 times a week. When she's here we won't have meat in the house. It's not a problem as I tend to be more "creative" with cooking, but if she's here more than a couple of weeks I have to skulk off to the butcher for one of his pork pies and shovel it down at my favourite bench in the park.
I do feel healthier when I don't eat meat though.

Has anyone else actually seen a veggie/vegan "broken" by bacon?

My missus is vegetarian but I'm not. She spends half her time in France and half here in England. When she's away we'll eat meat 3-4 times a week. When she's here we won't have meat in the house. It's not a problem as I tend to be more "creative" with cooking, but if she's here more than a couple of weeks I have to skulk off to the butcher for one of his pork pies and shovel it down at my favourite bench in the park.

The problem there is not one of diet.

The problem there is not one of diet.

[quote=Cougar ]I used to get hangover breakfasts with a friend of mine of a weekend. Sometimes he'd order pork sausages, sometimes vegetarian ones, not because he'd made some sort of part-time vegetarian lifestyle choice but rather that he liked them and didn't want to eat the same thing every time. It's a healthy attitude to have I think. I've known people avoid vegetarian options precisely because they're vegetarian, like they can't eat them, which always struck me as a bit odd.

When I was flying a lot (there's another selfish thing), back in the days when they used to feed you on flights I ended up claiming to be vegetarian on flights as my perception was that you got better service and in general the food was better!

I can certainly live without meat, and will happily eat meals without it - admittedly a lot less so since we've had children, I guess because they've got accustomed to eating it and don't like meals without. To some extent it's actually a health thing - I used to have smoked meat in my sandwiches most days, but now more often than not I have cheese instead, it's probably a very tiny difference to my health, but there don't appear to be any downsides. It's a bit of an "I could give up any time I like", but before children I did sometimes do meat free months (fish a couple of times a week though).

Though that's all about eating meat, and this thread is supposedly about vegans. Which is an important point given there is a lot of animal cruelty involved in milk and egg production etc. I am certainly bothered about the animal cruelty involved in all of these things, but a horrible hypocrite as I'm clearly not sufficiently bothered. My perception is that fish isn't so bad from that perspective.

Oh and I suppose I need to mention it; whilst I like bacon I could live without it.

My perception is that fish isn't so bad from that perspective.

It's possibly worse. Hauled out of the sea and dumped in the hold to die slowly under a couple of tons of other fish...

My perception is that fish isn't so bad from that perspective.

I've been vegetarian since my early mid-life crisis in 1989 (another element of which was buying my first mountain bike). I don't eat meat because I wouldn't be prepared to cut the throat of a cow or a pig so I don't think it's right to ask someone else to do it for me. It's also true that farming animals for meat is pretty bad for the planet, but since that's probably screwed beyond redemption already that's probably not so important any more. I'm always slightly uncomfortable that I haven't taken the next step to veganism, which I freely admit is due to laziness more than anything else.

My Missus is vegetarian and has often rejected meat substitute dishes because they are too meat-like.

Has anyone else actually seen a veggie/vegan "broken" by bacon? I only have one data point, so cannot yet join in any generic bacon based LOLs based on some possibly mythical inherent bacon lust.

I was vegetarian for about 6 years - having to eat out everyday in Madrid 15 years ago put paid to that... it just wasn't possible, at least not healthily and not for more than a week or two. When I finally gave in to the inevitable and had some meat I went for a bacon sandwich as it was apparently the thing to have - and meh. It was alright, but nothing special.

For me meat just isn't a foodstuff - I've as much interest in eating meat/lab grown meat/stuff that purports to look and taste like meat as I have in eating carpet slippers or traffic cones. And the smell of bacon makes me think of crematoria.

I don't know what the last 4 pages have been about because I can't be arsed reading them and I've drunk a significant amount of Aspall Imperial Vintage 286 cider.

Anyway, the other half has been vegan just over a year now, mainly for environmental reasons but also because of animal welfare stuff. She still gets jealous when I make a bacon sandwich. She has tried meatfree bacon, so did I, it was minging.

I can understand why she has done it but I just can't bring myself to follow. I enjoy food way too much to have to limit my options. I did really enjoy cooking but now I have limits on what I can cook (unless I go the extra mile to make something separate for her) which can get a bit frustrating.

Anyway, I'm going to bed this cider has done me in.

Why would a vegetarian want to eat something that pretends to be meat?

As I've said once, why would you eat a chicken burger that pretends to be beef?

For me meat just isn't a foodstuff - I've as much interest in eating meat/lab grown meat/stuff that purports to look and taste like meat as I have in eating carpet slippers or traffic cones. And the smell of bacon makes me think of crematoria.

Right there with you. I don't see it as food either, "why don't you eat meat?" is as alien to me as "why don't you eat turds?"

Well to quote Mr Attenborough . . .

Wonder what impact a career spent encountering animals has had on Sir David’s own lifestyle choices. He hasn’t been tempted by vegetarianism?

“As a scientist I can see perfectly well that Homo sapiens is an omnivore. So I think I can have a mixed diet with some degree of biological logic. And, providing the animals that you eat have been kept [and killed] in a reasonable, humane way, I think you needn’t worry.”

Has he been to an abattoir?

“I have seen animals being killed and it’s not a pleasant sight. But then there are quite a lot of realities of life [that] are not pleasant.”

is-ought fallacy

Why would a vegetarian want to eat something that pretends to be meat?

Like me, I guess many if not most vegans / vegetarians ate meat at some point. I know too much to eat meat these days but that doesn't mean I didn't like the taste of it.

This is linked in with peoples opinions that vegans just want to eat healthy food. F- that! Load me up on Skittles and Oreos baby!

Bacon - I always liked the smell of dead sliced up pig being fried but the end result was always a bit of a let down. You start off with a pan full food, and it shrivels up to hardly anything. Just a bit of stringy crispy fat.

Unfortunately meat eating is tied up with status and bravado. Hence people posting up daft comments on here, or people talking about 'meat sweats' as if gorging ones self is something to be proud on. More people are educating themselves and making less selfish choices. We'll have to see how that continues as for many people status is an intricate part of life.

I'm now pretty much a veggie. I'll still eat decent, quality meat on occasion, but not often. I've reduced my intake of dairy but still have it in my diet.

Being a vegan just seems logical to me;

1. Generally its more healthy, I know a few slightly over-weight veggies (me included) but certainly no obsese vegans 🙂
2. Less environmentally damaging / a plant based diet requires less land & water to sustain and emits far fewer (if any) greenhouse gases.
3. Greatly reduces animal cruelty

As for bacon; cooked human flesh smells/looks a lot like a cooked pig flesh, would you tuck into that?

Bacon - I always liked the smell of dead sliced up pig being fried but the end result was always a bit of a let down. You start off with a pan full food, and it shrivels up to hardly anything. Just a bit of stringy crispy fat.

Only cheap shitty bacon does that as its been wet cured (ie pumped full of water). Good quality dry cured bacon wont.

As for bacon; cooked human flesh smells/looks a lot like a cooked pig flesh, would you tuck into that?

Ask again when we have run out of pigs.

but certainly no obsese vegans

Not fully vegan yet (but getting there), I am definitely obese but have lost some weight lately. Not veggie/vegan for health reasons but if I lose a bit of weight as a result I won't be upset about it.

Skittles are nice though, especially the big bags...

Ask again when we have run out of pigs.

😆

As for bacon; cooked human flesh smells/looks a lot like a cooked pig flesh, would you tuck into that?

Resembles it yes It's very close which is why pig flesh is often used to practice medical techniques. Smells the same when burnt? Certainly not.

Unfortunately meat eating is tied up with status and bravado.

I think I eat meat because I'm an omnivore. it would be disingenuous though to deny that the consumption of meat has never been related to status (like salt, sugar, spices, white bread have been in the past).

What a dumb thing to say.

I can assure you it is not.

It is most certainly seen as "manly" by a lot of males to eat piles of meat. As such it is seen as being weak to not eat meat.

Yup it does carry a bravado associated with.

So, I have a question for vegans/vegetarians, I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts...

Inevitably, one day, we'll be able to grow "meat" from stem cells in big vats (not too dissimilar to quorn, I guess). It won't have been anywhere near an animal, apart from it will, technically, be flesh. Would you eat it?

[url= http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/there-is-nothing-pretentious-about-being-a-vegan-723?utm_source=vicetwitteruk ]Most vegans I know[/url]
it's worth a read 🙂

Inevitably, one day, we'll be able to grow "meat" from stem cells in big vats (not too dissimilar to quorn, I guess). It won't have been anywhere near an animal, apart from it will, technically, be flesh. Would you eat it?

When there's plenty of existing food on the planet to feed everyone, why on earth would we need to grow meat from stem cells?
I get it, it will probably have a smaller footprint than current meat, but it will probably be pretty expensive, so limited to a small number of customers, therefore not particularly sustainable as a food source.
Also, way too much money is invested in the current systems of agriculture, which have been monopolised to such a point that the political lobbyists would soon put a stop to anything that threatens their profits, as this sort of thing might.
Long answer, but no, I would not eat it, as, for me, being vegan is about more than animal welfare.

Inevitably, one day, we'll be able to grow "meat" from stem cells in big vats (not too dissimilar to quorn, I guess). It won't have been anywhere near an animal, apart from it will, technically, be flesh. Would you eat it?

That's a fantastic question, which I answered (for me personally) on the previous page.

People should make a point of reading the article that sideshowdave posted above. So much truth there.

As for growing meat, as someone who liked the taste of meat and has eaten probably a ton of the stuff over 35+ years, and as someone who is only a vegan for animal welfare reasons, it's an interesting question. Ultimately the thought of mowing down on a bloody steak these days honestly makes me want to barf. I also like the fact that eating a plant based diet has a lower impact on the environment than eating meat. It'd be interesting to see what resources are needed to 'grow' meat, and what the cost would be once it goes to market. So, no I can't see me wanting to eat the 'new' meat any more than I want to eat Kale! God awful stuff....

I enjoy food way too much to have to limit my options.

in a supermarket there are what? 4 meat options? (Lamb, beef, chicken pork) that people use on a "regular" basis, then perhaps a few more with sausage and burgers, bacon and the like. Compare that with the perhaps thousands of ingredients still available to you.

I certainly don't feel like my food choice is restricted.

I can assure you it is not.
It is most certainly seen as "manly" by a lot of males to eat piles of meat. As such it is seen as being weak to not eat meat.

Yes, when I used to eat meat (bacon mainly) I always felt compelled to roar like a Lion whilst ripping my shirt at the [s]Asda[/s] Waitrose meat counter.

I think we move in very different circles! Not saying it doesn't happen, I've just never seen it in day to day life.