[Closed] Vaping crisis

It's mostly #fakenews

The reports from America have to my knowledge all been cases of people who have added cannabis or THC to their vapes, these have to be dissolved in oil and inhaling boiling oil is very bad for you.

In the UK vaping is much more regulated, the ingredients used, amount of nicotine etc all controlled

In the USA laws by state vary and ingredients used that are not permitted in European countries or the UK
They also have targeted marketing soecifally at kids, which is bonkers

Here in the (regulated) UK so far (longest users about 10 years) no terrible side effects been seen and certainly it seems so far to be waaay safer than smoking & most successful method of getting people off fags.

(I work in a cancer research lab and have discussed it with epidemiologists from CRUK & several oncologists)

Deaths seem to be pretty limited so far but 10 years doesn’t seem a very long time over which to form a judgement about long term health effects. How many centuries were people using tobacco for before the health effects were appreciated...?

Go search “popcorn lung’

If I were a vape user, I'd seriously be rethinking it. This doesn't appear to be a "no side effects seen", although it could possibly argued that vaping is still better than smoking. Not sure if that's a great comparison, but there you go.

One of the problems is that all the various ingredients e-cigs are not properly regulated - in US, UK or EU. Mainly the regulations are around advertising, nicotine levels, and (in some instances) what flavors are allowed.

Massachusetts just declared public health emergency, placing this in the same bucket as the opiates problem in the US: https://www.mass.gov/guides/declaration-of-public-health-emergency

Whilst not ideal, there is no evidence to suggest that what we are seeing in the us is in any way a long term effect of vaping. Looks to me more like acute poisoning

Go search “popcorn lung’

Is that one with no evidence that vaping causes it?

Is there any evidence it's bad for you. Seen alot if conjecture but little facts.

Presumably there are some real events that have led to recent news but with millions of users are you more likely to get killed by a goat. Or not?

Also, tobacco companies, hmm.

🐐

Didn't know you could vape a goat! Learn something new everyday.

Didn’t know you could vape a goat! Learn something new everyday.

If you can blow a seal, why not?

Re evidence it's bad for you, some doctors are starting to review previous case studies where vaping could have been a factor, I expect it will take a while to review it all and I think it is sensible for people to stop vaping in the meantime; interesting article on Bloomberg about the lack of joined-up research

the argument that big tobacco is lobbying behind this seems unlikely given they've invested heavily in the vaping sector anyway.

A lot of people on twitter are outraged at prospective vaping bans...but it is a young industry and no one seems to be able to categorically say at this point that vaping is largely safe.

Pretty much it Handybar 10 years is not going to give us a lot,of evidence but with the massive uptake we will soon see what harm it does. Good to see America talking of banning vapouring but not firearms.

A friend who is very senior in one of the largest global tobacco companies told me that they're expecting to move away from selling tobacco entirely in the next decade or so. He also believes that the vaping industry, which is currently a bit Wild West, will be dominated by the big tobacco companies in a few years, due to much greater legislation governing it that will be forthcoming.

I very much doubt they'd try to cut their own arms off, as stated above.

JP

USA, 2019..
Vaping deaths: 9
"We need to ban vaping!"
Mass shooting gun deaths: 335
"We need more guns!"

<slow clap>

Yebbut all it takes to stop a bad guy with a vaporizer is a good guy with a Marlboro Red. With the filter ripped off.

Aye, lets see if they start banning cigarettes which are known to cause 480,000 deaths a year.

What's that? *tumbleweeds*

#doucheflute

Good to see America talking of banning vapouring but not firearms.

Arent they just suggesting banning flavoured versions.
Which doesnt seem unreasonable.
The primary defence for vaping seems to be its better than smoking so restricting vaping to some very limited flavours seems to meet that.

Why just flavoured?

😁

USA at is finest,

They must have a spare opioid type pill they need a use for.

Why just flavoured?

By making it more specific to only flavoured as cigarette it means it would restrict the likelihood of non smokers starting it.
Obviously not guaranteed but does lower the chances of making it appeal to others.

You've also got to consider vaping home made concoctions, or cheap grey Market liquids from the Internets.. £20 'carbon bars from Ali express' anyone? That seems to feature in a lot of these cases.

I can't help but think the danger is blown out of proportion considering the above, as there's very few issues considering the number of people who vape globally.

I once got given some unknown brand to me, liquid that was bought online from 'somewhere'.
Tried it a few times, didn't feel right in taste/texture so I only stick to established brands like totally wicked etc.

I suppose there's another aspect to usage, some people seem to chug the hell out of them at high voltages with massive clouds of smoke... Like it's some kind of fashion.. That can't be good for you.
Seems pointless to me, as for me it's simply a means to get off the tobacco, and slowly lower the nicotine dose until I can quit nicotine completely.

The amount of 'cloud' I exhale is almost nothing compared to some of the idiots you see with these oversized contraptions pumping out massive drifts of fog.

I do find it perplexing that non smokers would do it for fun, unethical marketing I guess.

My vape has adjustable voltage but it's only set to something like 2 out of 10 on the power dial.. Any more and it's too harsh and produces stupid amount of vapour.

I wonder what will replace vaping for those who like being addicts?

Caffeine?

I wonder what will replace vaping for those who like being addicts?

Caffeine?

I've actually quit coffee apart from one morning cup.

Also, bravo for belittling those with genuine addiction, who are trying to do something about it. You sound like a really nasty person.

there’s very few issues considering the number of people who vape globally.

We're looking at health effect within a 10 year time frame (and widespread uptake is much less than that) and making a comparison to the risks of smoking.

Most smokers take up smoking in their teens so after smoking for 10 years will be in their mid to late 20.

Whats the rate of smoking related deaths for people for people under 30?

mattyfez

Also, bravo for belittling those with genuine addiction, who are trying to do something about it. You sound like a really nasty person.

Having spent a large part of my life where venturing into an enclosed space meant breathing in the poisonous byproducts of smokers, I suggest I have cause.

The nasty people are those who subject others to the unpleasant consequences of their addictions.

(I work in a cancer research lab and have discussed it with epidemiologists from CRUK & several oncologists)

how big is your dataset and what markers are you looking at?

It does seem a bit odd that they can be looking at banning vaping/liquids but not smoking/cigarettes. There might well be a case for more regulation of the vaping industry and possibly even a ban if research showed a clear health risk, but surely that would only make sense alongside a smoking ban (although obviously logic doesn't factor in tobacco industry lobbying money).

I’ve actually quit coffee apart from one morning cup.

So, to recap, you have not quit anything?

It does seem a bit odd that they can be looking at banning vaping/liquids but not smoking/cigarettes.

It is odd but as you say I would imagine the Tobacco lobby is behind it.

There might well be a case for more regulation of the vaping industry and possibly even a ban if research showed a clear health risk, but surely that would only make sense alongside a smoking ban

The issue is the lack of regulation of additives and flavouring. There have been a few early studies showing an increased rate of cell death/immune response in lung cells 'perhaps' associated with flavourings. Not something that would cause an immediate problem in a vaper, and quite possibly not as harmful as smoking, but worrying nonetheless.

As for the opportunity to ban vs banning smoking, we have a product which is relatively new, whereas smoking was thoroughly entrenched in society by the time firm evidence of harm crystalized. If smoking was a new thing these days, I imagine it would be outlawed pretty quickly - we have far more advanced techniques to detect the kind of dangerous cell changes it causes.

From Drac

"Is that one with no evidence that vaping causes it?"

No - just inhaling it over a period of time. And even you must understand the similarity. It was linked to a specific aroma chemical. The link between it and cancer was not absolutely proved but enough for big payouts in the States.

It’s mostly #fakenews

and

Also, tobacco companies, hmm.

pretty much says it all

Without reading all the previous comments....

I thought the few people who had lung issues were in the same area, and they were suggesting it was possibly a "bad batch" of vape liquid?

Either way, it may be healthier than tobacco, but there's no longitudinal studies. Just stop smoking and eat edibles. ;o)

epicyclo

Subscriber
I wonder what will replace vaping for those who like being addicts?

Or, fair play to people trying to stop smoking tobacco, one of the hardest addictions to quit, best of luck to them, it must be really hard for them, I wish them well.

It is still likely to be significantly less harmful than smoking, but folk need to go into it with their eyes open and maybe stop buying those hideous fruit-scented ones. Because they smell like death, at least.

It is still likely to be significantly less harmful than smoking, but folk need to go into it with their eyes open and maybe stop buying those hideous fruit-scented ones. Because they smell like death, at least.

This, pretty much. Banning vaping is not likely to be effective in stopping people vaping, the same as with all other drug taking, so I wouldn't be in support, just regulate it appropriately.

epicyclo

Subscriber
I wonder what will replace vaping for those who like being addicts?

Fair play to epicyclo for not seeing vaping through the prism of Scottish Independence.

As an ex-smoker who has vaped for 5 years, while never having a single fag during that time, I just view it as me feeling about a million times better, in all manner of ways, than when I smoked 20 B&H a day.

Any speculation about the health effects seem pretty spurious to me, but at the end of the day my attitude to it is 'so what?'.

There's no way on earth I can see the damage vaping potentially doing to you being anywhere near the magnitude of fags

Is there any evidence it’s bad for you. Seen alot if conjecture but little facts.

Presumably there are some real events that have led to recent news but with millions of users are you more likely to get killed by a goat. Or not?

Also, tobacco companies, hmm.

As I understand it, and admittedly this was a headline on BBC radio news so I haven't spent hours pawing over scientific studies or anything, but based on current knowledge it's only about 10% as harmful as smoking, but we can't really know the full long-term effects yet as it's still only a relatively new product.

It's possibly telling that the CEO of Juul (big e-cig maker) recently told non-smokers not to use their products and then stepped down because he could no longer stand behind a company making unsubstantiated health claims.

Tobacco companies aren't scared of Vape, they love it! They know their industry is dying so they're investing heavily in Vape. And why not? It's a tobacco product, it's hugely addictive and they can go back to advertising pretty much where they want at the same time as claiming health benefits, it's like the 50s all over again for them!

A genuine question for the vapers here: do you vape and drive? Related, I guess, to a couple of the posts above, I've seen a few cars with windows wide open and more steam being emitted than the train that passes my window on a daily basis. Whether it's the driver or passenger(s) is there not an impact on visibility?

A genuine question for the vapers here: do you vape and drive?

Yes, absolutely, with the windows up. It’s great practice for driving in fog.

It is odd but as you say I would imagine the Tobacco lobby is behind it.

Tobacco lobby has brought heavily into vaping companies. Its a nice resurgence for them although admittedly with more competition.
Most of the suggestions I have seen around vaping are to apply the same limits as are currently on cigarettes plus reduce the range of "flavour".
The argument about it being less harmful than smoking seems to be correct but as anyone who has walked down a highstreet recently knows the problem is it is being marketed way beyond smokers to pretty much anyone.
So it doesnt seem unreasonable to treat it the same as cigarettes and put limits on its usage. Especially some of the more dubious tactics which do seem aimed at kids.

A genuine question for the vapers here: do you vape and drive?

I’ve seen a few cars with windows wide open and more steam being emitted than the train that passes my window on a daily basis. Whether it’s the driver or passenger(s) is there not an impact on visibility?

None at all. As you said above. It all goes out of the window.

Ah, cool. You might understand that I've tended not to hang around near these cars to see what the effect is. 😄

Venturi effect.

Having spent a large part of my life where venturing into an enclosed space meant breathing in the poisonous byproducts of smokers, I suggest I have cause.

No-one has cause for belittling people who are trying to get better. Don't be a dick.

Tobacco lobby has brought heavily into vaping companies. Its a nice resurgence for them although admittedly with more competition.

And no excise duty on vapes. So potential for greater profit margins.

how big is your dataset and what markers are you looking at?

You don't need a dataset specifically.
A little knowledge can often be enough to see one thing is better than another.
Would you rather be locked in a room with a hungry tiger or hungry rabbit?
I don't need a load of studies and data points to know which I'd choose to recommend given a binary option.

Obviously, it would be better to not have to make the choice but given a choice between something we know contains numerous carcinogens and something that contains no known carcinogens it's a bit of a no brainer.

Tobacco lobby has brought heavily into vaping companies. Its a nice resurgence for them although admittedly with more competition

It's a completely different market which is why they are lobbying to ban vaping whilst hedging bets to develop their own at the same time.

A few little known facts... nicotine is additive but generally in the low/mid range by itself.
Cigarette smoke however contains 2 specific byproducts (can't remember what they are right now) that increase the effect and hugely increase the addition part.
Tobacco companies are all to familiar with this which is why they have funded endless studies about nicotine addition rather than tobacco addiction.

They will also segment markets so for example if a company has a small market share of cigarettes in a geography they will push vaping, if they have a big market share they minimise vaping.

After the Gold Blend fiasco* this is normal practice in most companies that sell based on market share.

*Those who remember the Gold Blend ads... Rip off James Bond ... these ads were phenomenally successful at increasing market share for Gold Blend... almost exclusively at the expense of Nescafe original who then spent millions making their own ads with the "record seller in Brighton".

molgrips

No-one has cause for belittling people who are trying to get better. Don’t be a dick.

The dicks are those who impose their addictions on others.

Now let me tell you about my bicycle addiction...