[Closed] US gun violence

So with all of your firearms experience you know that there's almost no way anyone can legally own an AK-47 in the states? In most states they can own generic semi automatic AK lookalike variants but almost no one can legally own a full auto 7.62 AK-47 without extensive FBI and ATF background

Modifying a trigger group isn't hard....but I didn't say full auto did I.

They might not be as bad as we were or the Septics but that still don’t make them the good guys.

I find them more benign than the yanks.

Tom_W1987 - Member

Modifying a trigger group isn't hard....but I didn't say full auto did I.

If you weren't trying to deal in hyperbole you would could/would have written "semi automatic rifle". Anyway, you are are constantly evading any rational reason for owning a firearm as per the standard STW befuddlement at US gun policy.

If you lived in rural USA why wouldn't you hunt for meat?

Does this men the all the Ar15 variants are not actually Ar15s because they do not have the automatic fire option either?

That's not a need for protection, it's for pleasure. I would, but a bolt action - locked away in an armoured guncase... like a civilised person.

Like you can here.

Tom_W1987 - Member

That's not a need for protection, it's for pleasure. I woukd, but a bolt action - locked away in an armoured guncase.

Okay so just to clarify, if you lived in the states, you'd own a gun?

Do hardened Mexican criminals abide by the laws of legal AK47 ownership?

Why would you only own one in the states?

Tom_W1987 - Member

Why would you only own one in the states?

We're discussing gun ownership in the states. Just to clarify, if you lived in rural USA you'd own a gun, right?

giantalkali - Member

Do hardened Mexican criminals abide by the laws of legal AK47 ownership?

Why so racist?

The inventor Mikhail Kalashnikov made gun and named it after himself as he had a dead hard name, it's a real shame the inventor of the AR15 / M16 didn't do the same...

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Stoner ]Like, hey man...[/url]

Why not, but we are talking about ownership for defence.... presumably you're reason for doing so based on your past posts.

Owning a firearm for hunting purposes is a totally different ballgame.

He did.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoner_63

Tom_W1987 - Member

Why not, but we are talking about ownership for defence.... presumably you're reason for doing so based on your past posts.

You construed it as such. Did you bother to read my post or did you just zero in on some imagined point you disagreed with and decide to challenge me in order to make some kind of virtue signal to fellow forum members? Is the thread specifically about gun ownership for defence?

Owning a firearm for hunting purposes is a totally different ballgame.

Hence the diversity of opinion among gun owners in the US. Seriously.

Tom_W1987 - Member
He did.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoner_63
/p>

POSTED 2 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Well, bugger me. I'm off to get stoned.

EDIT - 100 million AK47s produced vs 4000 Stoner guns, I'm allowed not to have heard of them.

Watching John Wick for the first time. I now understand the personal defence argument.

The idea of being helpless and at the mercy of someone because they have a gun and I don't does not appeal to me

O RLY? Jimjam.... above quote begs to differ... you essentially addmited there that you would own a gun for defence.

Tom_W1987 - Member

The idea of being helpless and at the mercy of someone because they have a gun and I don't does not appeal to me

O RLY? Jimjam.... above quote begs to differ...

Which was a actually a direct reply to your, selective or shall we say myopic post wherein you ignored an entire paragraph and tried to start an argument.
You seem to have some kind of aversion to admitting you would own a gun if you lived in the US. As if you're embarrassed to type the words. I have no problems stating that if I were to move to rural USA I would own a gun, and I would like to hunt to provide ethically sourced meat for my family. I also feel no qualms about saying that if I lived in a nation awash with firearms I would own a firearm for home protection. A fairly large number of forum members keep some kind of lethal weapon near hand just in the off chance a bad actor should break into their house.

I don't care what way you choose to colour that for forum prestige points.

You said you'd own one if you moved to the states, why not here? The only added excuse stateside is defence.

Unfortunately the forum doesn't have karma/prestige points like reddit...that'd be quite fun.

Tom_W1987 - Member

You said you'd own one if you moved to the states, why not here?

Because the only thing I can legally hunt as a food source here (without considerable litigious difficulty) are the rabbits on my land. I can't really eliminate supermarket meat buying and replace it with rabbit meat, whereas I could actually do that if I had access to deer, elk, moose or pig.

The self defence aspect isn't bourne out of some deep harbored desire to shoot people, rather out of an honest assessment of being helpless as an unarmed man in the face of men armed with guns in a country awash with guns, as per my earlier posts.

I've posted before that I don't conceal weapons I wouldn't be comfortable using - that's because I do not want to kill people, or cripple them with dangerous weapons. I feel the same way about guns but if I was confronted with the likely reality of dealing with home invaders armed with guns I would have to be rational and respond in kind to at least create a stalemate.

Again, many people on this forum seem okay with braining people with a cricket bat or iron bar, in case they meet a more aggressive person with similar weapons. The same logic applies to guns

Again, if that genuinely worried you - you would be better off just armouring your house.

Right so how much armour do you put on a house to make it capable of hunting wild game?

lol wut.

Would you use a pump action shotgun, glock or an AR15 for hunting elk?

Or are you going to swing a great big ****ing deer rifle around in your house, when being burgled?

Does this men the all the Ar15 variants are not actually Ar15s because they do not have the automatic fire option either?

AR-15 is the civilian (semi-auto) version of the m16/m4 essentially as far as my limited knowledge tells me.

Would you use a pump action shotgun, glock or an AR15 for hunting elk?

There are plenty of AR15 varients that would be capable of that...

But I am getting on the wrong side of the argument here.

Me think guns bad

Watching John Wick for the first time.

Just sleep with a pencil next to your bed. #homesecuritysorted

And they have long barrels, weigh 10lb and fire 7.62 and will pretty much make an utter mess of your house and anyone behind a light wall.

Brilliant idea.

Whyyyyy. The whole idea is bonkers.

Tom_W1987 - Member

And they have long barrels, weigh 10lb and fire 7.62 and will pretty much make an utter mess of your house and anyone behind a light wall.

Yup. Like I say, wrong tool for home defence. And wrong tool for hunting. And wrong tool for absolutely anything apart from fighting a war, blazing away cheap walmart bullets at the range/back lot, or standing around feeling awesome because you're a big man with a big gun. And yet it's the US's most popular rifle (in fact 4 out of the top 5 most popular rifles are an AR platform rifle)

Not that there's anything wrong with that, just don't excuse it by saying "home defence", it's like buying yourself a rail dragster and saying it's to drive to the shops.

And if you feel like you have to lie about your reasons for buying it, maybe you should think again about the purchase. If your home ever does get invaded, you'll wish you'd got that Remington Police or M&P the shop told you to get.

ninfan - Member

Do they now...

Interesting that US burglary rates are lower than UK though, isnt it?

Wasn't there a thread where we kept our resident fascist troll holed up?
Who let the bugger out?

Even if they do have less burglary I'd rather have more stuff nicked than people murdered seems a decent trade off.

Funnily we’re talking guns and I had a couple of conversations today with normal ‘Mercins about how they would like to come to London but were put off due to the immentient risk of dying in a Muslim terror attack.
I did point out that they would be much more at risk of looking left rather than right at the roadside when in London. The sarcasm and appreciation of what relative risk was missed on them.

So much of the rest of our conversation here is overblown about the risks of gun crime in the US.

Overblown?

Europe 0.027 deaths per 100 000 due to terror

US 10.54 gun deaths per 100 000

Not even comparable, Yanks really do have their heads in cloud cuckoo land if they are scared of UK terror risk.

@Tom AR15 are 223. AR10 are 308/7.62

Yes, I know that.

You shouldn't really be shooting elk in the USA with. 223 though. The minimum is.. 243 or 6mm.

.308 seems to be the go to calibre for largish game in the US if you want one gun to cover most uses.

243 in the UK generally centrefire in the us

So much of the rest of our conversation here is overblown about the risks of gun crime in the US.

Ninfan the interesting difference between us and UK burglary rates may be down to the difference between how the us and UK define a burglary:
"The breaking and entering the house of another in the night time, with intent to commit a felony therein, whether the felony be actually committed or not.[4][5][6]"
Will produce a lot fewer offences than section 9 of the theft act which covers any building at any time of day and some shoplifting.

Cranboy, you're engaging ninfan using logic, you're crazy man - don't do it. You weren't in the Brexit thread man, you don't know!

US 10.54 gun deaths per 100 000

Not even comparable, Yanks really do have their heads in cloud cuckoo land if they are scared of UK terror risk.

See this is a good example of how the data is rarely used correctly. That figure of 10.54 includes suicides and isn't remotely the figure for gun homicides, which is what we are talking about.

The US gun homicide rate is 3.6 per 100,000, still considerably higher than the UK's 0.06 but relative to other countries it's nothing like as high. Argentina's rate is very similar, I don't know why more isn't made of that.

He clearly put gun "deaths" not homicides so that isnt the statistics being used incorrectly it is you not reading correctly.

Argentina's rate is very similar, I don't know why more isn't made of that.

Because they dont claim to be a superpower setting an example/invading the rest of the world and are a considerably less developed country...

Tom I'm not certain the difference is down to definition, it's hard to pin down what burglary is in America from Google , it may well vary from State to state . Crime stats between nations are always hard to cross compare because of different definitions and ways of recording offences. See how the neo Nazis twist sweeden in to being the rape capital of the world.

That figure of 10.54 includes suicides

So it should as every study shows easy access to guns increases the suicide rate.

Yes we’ve been through this already. Gun homicide is totally different to gun suicide. On is a reflection of how violent a country is the other how unhappy it is.

Guns aren’t a problem in any country just as Switzerland shows (btw what is the suicide rate in Switzerland?) Gun homicides are the problem but even then that’s not a really a factor of gun ownership (as again Switzerland shows) but rather of wealth inequality. This is demonstrated by the Gini Coeffecient.

As for Argentina not being a super power, so what, does that make their gun homicide problem less of a problem?

geetee1972 - Member

Guns aren’t a problem in any country just as Switzerland shows

What?
More suicides are committed in Switzerland using guns per capita than anywhere else in Europe.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/suicide-rates-maryland-rural-urban-firearms-guns-johns-hopkins-united-states-a7898951.html ]Independent article[/url]

There are about 32,000 deaths from guns a year in the United States, of which some 60 per cent are suicides, three per cent are accidents and the rest are homicides.

Crankboy

Guess what happens if you rely on Wikipedia for your legal definitions rather than the definition in the FBI’s uniform crime report statistics:

UCR.FBI.GOV "https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/burglary.pdf"

More suicides are committed in Switzerland using guns per capita than anywhere else in Europe.

But how does Switzerland’s actual overall suicide rate look compared with its neighbours?

every study shows easy access to guns increases the suicide rate.

But how does Switzerland’s actual overall suicide rate look compared with its neighbours?

It's higher.

its higher

Fake Noos!

Most recent OECD stats:

[img] [/img]

Rates in Austria and France are higher (Germany and Italy lower) Switzerland is pretty close to the OECD average.

You’ll also note that despite the aforementioned gun suicide rates in the US, their suicide rate is still below France (one could postulate that given the healthcare etc. situation, you would expect the US suicide to top most of the countries with free healthcare systems anyway)

Ninfan so still narrower than section 9 and was the FBI's data the set used in the comparison ? Do Americans report and record thefts from sheds as burglary or theft or not at all?

I live in the US and many of the people I work with are convinced that if they do not keep guns in their houses then countries like North Korea or Iran will sail across and invade and they will be defenceless. Mind you they are all pretty terrified of everyone else in the country, other countries as well as their own government who they also believe will at the drop of a hat come into their house and imprison them...
Many of these people are very educated but years of indoctrination has made them a bit odd...

Record number of people shot & killed by Police in America last year 1000

And then remember the Vegas shooter with the mod to turn his rifle into a machine gun, the makers of that bump stock are suing the hotel he fired from !

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/24/politics/bump-stocks-interest/index.html

ninfan - Member

Fake Noos!

I'm working from raw data from 2014.
It is substantially higher.
You should check your facts more carefully.

"You should check your facts more carefully"
And definitions.
https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=321