[Closed] US gun violence

It`s ok because the NRA will fix it by making sure more people have guns...

Guns don't kill peop.......oh yeah.They do.
Sliiightly sweary

Didn't armed toddlers cause more accidental death in America than Islamic terrorism in 2017?

Priorities.

matty - not aware of that but wouldn't be surprised.

Bell ends.

Them lot, not you lot.

And Trump still survives.

Didn't armed toddlers cause more accidental death in America than Islamic terrorism in 2017?

Looks at angry toddler. Not quite sure they will all have been accidents.

At Christmas we were invited to stop over at a friend ranch near Portland

within that bedroom there was a sniper rifle and scope on tripod and a hand gun

all loaded and ready to go

these were what I would call professional white 'normal' Americans

Absolutely nuts

And Trump still survives.

I do find this amazing. All those people around with guns and only one attempt I am aware of.

I was hoping he would be shot in the crossfire of a multiple shooting that he seems to dismiss so readily.

They have a scheme in the USA called the NRA Roundup. When you buy anything from a gun shop you are invited to round up the bill to the next full dollar then that extra bit of money goes into an endowment which is used to pay to fight challenges to the second amendment.

My Father had a fun whilst were lived in deepest Florida, I found it and took it out to show my mate and we shot it at an Harvester Ants nest (huge domes)
Hilarious.
I was 12.
Not angry, nor angsty, just a normal kid who’d found his Fathers gun.

It really is mind boggling. America was often seen as "the most developed country etc..." However, with the emergence of the internet and the free flowing nature of news coming out of America it really paint it in a different light.

Issues such as gun rationality, quality of their news outlets, workers rights, food quality, health care, social welfare, education let alone politics! It's less first world, more third world developing nation stuck in the dark ages, just with better telly.

But as long as they keep the Muslims out they will be fine

It's third world with electricity

America was often seen as "the most developed country etc..."

A few mates to live there don't agree, NYC yeah, LA for the most part, some of the other major cities, yeah if you want to see how life could be in other cites around the world in 10 years, see what NYC is like now.

Vast swathes of the place are pretty undeveloped though, honestly a lot of it would struggle to complete with Eastern Europe.

just with [s]better[/s] more telly.

FTFY 😆

There was a programme on last night with Miriam Margolese (sp?) going around the USA. She was in Chicago in one of the less attractive areas shall we say. Shortly after she left the area (videos had been posted on social media of her talking to one of the local gang members so they'd got out quick) her bodyguard returned to pick up a vehicle and in the interim there'd been a shooting there with one dead and two injured. Everyone else from kids to pensioners was just carrying on as if nothing untoward had happened.

We see the headline figure of X thousand murders per annum but I've not seen (or looked TBH) that broken down. I wonder how much of it is gang/drug related.

It is far too deep rooted to change.

I have a very good American friend from when I spent some time over there. Ex-army Pilot and now a dentist. A decent kind guy. A family man.

BUT don't mention tightening of the gun laws. There is no reasoning with him on that discussion. It's just encroaching on an American's perceived hard won civil liberties and freedom.

It may be obvious to us. It ain't obvious to them. It's not just the Southerners, the Rednecks, the detached Mid-West or the NRA. There is a whole load of 'normal', 'professional' people that need their whole mindset changing.

Chicago is unreal, though if you're a couple of miles outside the hotspots, you're unlikely to see any of it.

[url= http://heyjackass.com/ ]http://heyjackass.com/[/url]

Didn't armed toddlers cause more accidental death in America than Islamic terrorism in 2017?

And apparently Kinder eggs are banned in the US because they are a choking hazard.

priorities

indeed

The US doesn’t even get close to having truly bad gun homicide statistics compared to the countries at the top of the table and yet you only ever hear about the US’s problem.

Why is that?

It's all fine, any minute now the Good Guy With A Gun is gonna turn up and make it safe for everyone

For example RSA’s gun homicide rate is almost three times that of the US but no one ever mentions it. Brazil’s is six times and El Salvador’s is 15 times. Why does everyone only ever talk about the problem in the US?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Why is that?

Why does everyone only ever talk about the problem in the US?

Why don't you tell us.

@geetee1972 - maybe because they claim they are a civilised country? When compared against European countries they are in a league of their own. Many of the countries at the top of the list are effectively lawless or have large parts of the country that are not under control of central government/law enforcement.

Looking at the list (nationmaster) there's quite a few that have long running internal civil conflicts so that could make a difference. For instance Yemen sits just above the USA. That site also just shows "intentional homicide" so accidents aren't counted.

that hayjackass site is amazing I love the graphics.
but Chicago is roughly the same size as brum? one shooting every 2.1\2 hours don't they go to bed or have weekends off.
young black men are mostly the victims I'm sure they are NRA supporters

No I think the US does have a problem with gun crime but I think the motivation for focusing on it is part of a much broader anti US sentiment that seems to be very fashionable these days.

As an interesting alternative perspective consider that it’s possible the US doesn’t have a gun crime problem so much as it has a violent crime problem. And then ask why the US, the most developed country in the world, does indeed have this issue.

I was reading about the Gini co-efficient recently and it made for interesting reading. The problem the US has versus say any country in Europe (Switzerland is a good example where gun ownership is very high but gun homicide almost non existent) is massive wealth inequality.

As an interesting alternative perspective consider that it’s possible the US doesn’t have a gun crime problem so much as it has a violent crime problem. And then ask why the US, the most developed country in the world, does indeed have this issue.

And then ask why the US, the most developed country in the world, does indeed have this issue.

Parts of it are well developed, but not the country as a whole. Mad gun laws, vast differences in wealth and little mental health care provision aren’t signs of a well developed country IMO

I think Canada has a similar gun ownership figures to the USA but the murder rate is closer to European rates. So there's definitely a cultural/social element.

I'm not anti US (I work for an American company for a start) it's more exasperation that a supposedly advanced society is not only unable to recognise that there's a problem but that it almost pointedly refuses to address any of the issues leading to that problem. The current administration's recent "successes" like the tax reform bill and attempts to repeal the Affordable Health Care act actually exacerbate things.

Why is that?

Developed country innit.

Oh and as to why the US gets a tough ride
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-city-attack-trump-response/
vs
White dude commits mass murder
http://time.com/4965063/las-vegas-shooting-trump-response/

Summed up by CNN
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/01/politics/trump-vegas-nyc/index.html

Isn't it all a bit Darwinian ? Eventually they'll all kill each other and the problem will go away.

but Chicago is roughly the same size as brum?

oh and more from the developed world
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-04/oregon-gas-pump-law-change/9304840

"I had to do it once in California while visiting my brother and almost died doing it. This a service only qualified people should perform. I will literally park at the pump and wait until someone pumps my gas. I can't even," he wrote.

The change will be instituted in counties with less than 40,000 residents with some areas now allowed to fill their petrol tanks any time of day, and others will be restricted to self-service only between 6:00pm and 6:00am, The Washington Post reported.

But petrol stations will not be forced to install self-service pumps.

If that rate continues it will result in 11,000 deaths.

No I think the US does have a problem with gun crime but I think the motivation for focusing on it is part of a much broader anti US sentiment that seems to be very fashionable these days.

I suspect that a far more likely explanation may well be "who gives a shit about El Salvador?"

Population of Honduras, 9 million.
Population of the US, 326 million.

That's why we focus on the US.

frankconway - Member
In the first two days of this month 63 people in the US have died in gun violence; that's more than the total who died in the LA concert incident last year.
If that rate continues it will result in 11,000 deaths.
That is all.

How many wee with legally owned guns? you can't just bunch it all together with criminal activity as that's another issue completely

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
Why can't you? a prevalence of guns is the issue. It leads to more guns with people who are scared of filling their petrol tanks, it leads to cops with more reason to shoot unarmed australian women in their PJ's, it leads to more and more dead people

No I think the US does have a problem with gun crime but I think the motivation for focusing on it is part of a much broader anti US sentiment that seems to be very fashionable these days.

Well said, it’s a sentiment that’s been spectacularly popular on the British political left for years - see John Pilger as as example.

So do you think it's safe to give somebody a gun who is scared of filling their car up?
Have gun deaths dropped?
Have they done anything about the fact a normal guy managed to kill so many with legal guns?
Nope.

So do you think it's safe to give somebody a gun who is scared of filling their car up?

Why do you think it’s unsafe? Do you think they’re going to go on a rampage just because they have a gun?

Knock out suicides (they’re going to find a way anyway) drug/gang violence (they’re going to get guns anyway) and domestics (he’s going to kill her anyway) and the figures look remarkably different

Knock out suicides (they’re going to find a way anyway) drug/gang violence (they’re going to get guns anyway) and domestics (he’s going to kill her anyway) and the figures look remarkably different

Firearm Access is a Risk Factor for Suicide
Every study that has examined the issue to date has found that within the U.S., access to firearms is associated with increased suicide risk.

In America, a majority of fatal domestic violence is committed with firearms; in turn, gun violence against women in America is inextricably linked to domestic violence. At least 52 percent of American women killed with guns are killed by intimate partners or family members. And women are 16 times more likely to be killed with guns in the U.S. than in other developed countries. Despite impressions from media coverage, mass shootings in which at least four people were killed with a gun are also typically acts of domestic or family violence: an Everytown analysis of every mass shooting between 2009-16 found that 54 percent were committed by intimate partners or family.

Anyway carry on BS

At Christmas we were invited to stop over at a friend ranch near Portland

within that bedroom there was a sniper rifle and scope on tripod and a hand gun

all loaded and ready to go

It does seem mad but bear in mind the thing they were most likely to kill you with was parked on the drive. Over 37,000 road deaths in the US in 2016 compared to an estimated 11,000 firearm homicides. Firearm deaths overall tend to match road deaths but they are people who choose to shoot themselves.

Is there anything that [i]isn't[/i] a left wing conspiracy?

Is there anything that isn't a left wing conspiracy?

Anti-clockwise air travel?

When you include 99.9% of the world as left wing it has to be

It's fairly simple, lots of guns means a lot of people get shot. All the guns in the hands of criminals were at one point legal firearms, there isn't a big company making guns to sell to criminals.

Well said, it’s a sentiment that’s been spectacularly popular on the British political left for years - see John Pilger as as example.

'Dumb as s, a dope, and a fing idiot': Trump book reveals what his top officials and billionaire confidants, including Rupert Murdoch, really think about the president

'Furious and disgusted' Trump files cease and desist letter against Bannon - who still calls the president a 'great man' - while Don Jr labels the ex-White House strategist an 'opportunist' who created 'nightmare of backstabbing, harassing, and leaking'

Trump called female acting attorney general 'such a c***' in astonishing attack when she advised against his travel ban, book reveals

Trump eats McDonald's because he fears being poisoned and ordered staff not to touch his toothbrush: The shocking claims about his first days in the White House revealed

Ivanka and Jared Kushner have a Clinton-style pact that SHE will run for president as Trump dismisses his son-in-law as a 'suck-up'

Steve Bannon looks like s**t, Reince Priebus is a midget, Sean Spicer is stupid and Kellyanne Conway is a crybaby: How Trump unloaded on his staff during after-dinner phone calls

Yale psychiatry professor 'warns Congress President Trump's mental health is "unraveling"'

Chilling bodycam video shows moment US cops shoot disturbed, gun-wielding woman after tense standoff

just the left, all stories from today mail online

It's a downward spiral really. People don't feel safe (which I find amazing), which means they get a gun, which means lots of people have guns, which makes people feel less safe, which means people get more guns and bigger guns, which make people feel even less safe. Then one day you have an altercation with someone in the street and instead of a verbal altercation, maybe turning to a bit of fisty-cuffs, because people have guns they get drawn and waved about and ultimately this will result in people squeezing off a few rounds and people dyeing. It is inevitable. By the pure fact you carry a gun increases your chances of getting shot.

guns in the hands of angry and scared people is never ever a good thing.

What I find amazing is the trigger happiness of the authorities. I was shocked when in the aftermath of the Boston Marathon bombings the Police allowed an open shoot out with the bad guys to happen in a suburb with people having to take cover in their won homes as bullets came wizzing in through their windows and walls. Unbelievable incompetence. They should have contained the situation and tracked them out of any built up area before they had their Spaghetti Western shoot out. Just utterly bonkers. They all must imagine they're in some sort of movie or something. Living out some kind of fantasy in their heads.

mikewsmith - Member
> http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
Why can't you? a prevalence of guns is the issue. It leads to more guns with people who are scared of filling their petrol tanks, it leads to cops with more reason to shoot unarmed australian women in their PJ's, it leads to more and more dead people

Because it's the same as saying we should ban all knives due to 4 people being killed in London and 5 killed in Sheffield in the same night, it was crime, if it wasn't a knife it would have been a baseball bat or hammer.

You can't just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point

Because it's the same as saying we should ban all knives due to 4 people being killed in London and 5 killed in Sheffield in the same night, it was crime, if it wasn't a knife it would have been a baseball bat or hammer.

You can't just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point

Or a gun, if they had access to them?

akira - Member
It's fairly simple, lots of guns means a lot of people get shot. All the guns in the hands of criminals were at one point legal firearms, there isn't a big company making guns to sell to criminals.

That's a massive over simplification (and blatantly not true), outside of the USA most illegal firearms are imported, easily proved by the fact that we're not allowed the types being used over here (and never have been), a lot are ex military weapons that have never been in the hands of a LEGAL gun owner.

My other hobbies include firearms which people keep trying to clamp down on, do you know how many people were killed by legally owned semi-automatic rifles before Michael Ryan went on the rampage - NONE, do you know how many were killed with LEGAL pistols before Thomas Hamilton? Again NONE

The easiest way to make the place safer isn't to target legally owned firearms but to actually enforce a proper sentence on the criminals using them

Because it's the same as saying we should ban all knives due to 4 people being killed in London and 5 killed in Sheffield in the same night, it was crime, if it wasn't a knife it would have been a baseball bat or hammer.

You can't just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point

I'm fairly sure there already are laws stopping you from carrying a knife around town and restricting their sale, but y'know, carry on with that argument if you want.

You can't just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point

In a discussion about the relationship between gun ownership and deaths from bullets being fired from said guns, they’re not unrelated statistics I’m afraid.

IdleJon - Member
Because it's the same as saying we should ban all knives due to 4 people being killed in London and 5 killed in Sheffield in the same night, it was crime, if it wasn't a knife it would have been a baseball bat or hammer.
You can't just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point
Or a gun, if they had access to them?

quiet possibly but it would be an illegally held firearm that no amount of licensing (or banning) would stop it getting into their hands after all murder is illegal and that didn't stop them, I was showing that people will kill and its not the tool used that needs banning

deadlydarcy - Member
You can't just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point
In a discussion about the relationship between gun ownership and deaths from bullets being fired from said guns, they’re not unrelated statistics I’m afraid.

errr yes they are unrelated if the bullet didn't come from the same 'said' gun and no amount of typing "I'm afraid" changes that, you're obviously allergic to facts and have a preconceived argument

prawny - Member
Because it's the same as saying we should ban all knives due to 4 people being killed in London and 5 killed in Sheffield in the same night, it was crime, if it wasn't a knife it would have been a baseball bat or hammer.
You can't just add two unrelated statistics together because you want to prove a point

I'm fairly sure there already are laws stopping you from carrying a knife around town and restricting their sale, but y'know, carry on with that argument if you want.

So why would a law banning guns (which there is about the types being used) stop the shooting? so yeah we'll stick with that point thanks

Good grief. U ok hun?

So why would a law banning guns

Who’s asking for guns to be banned?

deadlydarcy - Member
Good grief. U ok hun?

yes thanks sweetie

So why would a law banning guns (which there is about the types being used) stop the shooting?

It has though hasn't it, generally speaking, there are fewer guns over here, and fewer gun deaths, there are other reasons obviously, it's not black and white, but its definitely a contributing factor.

I could shoot you if I had a gun, but I don't, so I can't.

yes thanks sweetie

You seem angry. You don’t have a gun do you?

Knock out suicides (they’re going to find a way anyway)

prawny - Member
So why would a law banning guns (which there is about the types being used) stop the shooting?
It has though hasn't it, generally speaking, there are fewer guns over here, and fewer gun deaths, there are other reasons obviously, it's not black and white, but its definitely a contributing factor.

I could shoot you if I had a gun, but I don't, so I can't.

I kind of agree BUT you probably could get one if you were 'desperate' to (not saying you are lol) and if you did have one legally the vetting process is quiet strict (over here anyway) I'd feel pretty safe on the range next to you as I know that you've been through the police (and medical) checks

I do and several of my friends have them, and we're no risk BUT constantly under more pressure and legislation.

What I'm trying to say is that the targeting legal owners doesn't achieve anything

deadlydarcy - Member
yes thanks sweetie
You seem angry. You don’t have a gun do you?

hahahaha yes several but not angry, just get these type of statistics far too often lol

What I'm trying to say is that the targeting legal owners doesn't achieve anything

I'm fairly sure that's an oversimplification at best.

It may well be true for the UK, in so far as guns are pretty rare and legal owners tend to buy shotguns for clay pigeons rather than assault rifles for home dee-fense, so targeting legal owners here is pretty pointless.

But you can't hold us up as a mirror to the US. There's plenty of legal gun owners who wouldn't go to Wal-Mart without a Glock in their pocket. My ex-girlfriend has a gun for protection whilst she's working; she's an accountant.

Cougar - Moderator

But you can't hold us up as a mirror to the US. There's plenty of legal gun owners who wouldn't go to Wal-Mart without a Glock in their pocket. My ex-girlfriend has a gun for protection whilst she's working; she's an accountant.

Now that I DO agree on... untrained people carrying firearms in public 😮 , even if something did happen the adrenaline of the situation would have them firing everywhere

Last year my cousin (lives in Alabama) got tied up with an electric cord on her bed, by a neighbour who broke in, while he robbed her flat. She got free of the cord while he was in the kitchen, grabbed her gun and shot him dead.

we're not that close so I've not asked about it, just saw a link to the news story on FB and people asking if she was ok, but get the feeling she would have been in a very horrible situation if she hadn't got free...

No idea if that means guns are good or bad, but I'm glad she had one, and I'm glad I live in a country where they are very rare.

TBH, I didn't even know any of my "American" family owned guns until that day.

Now that I DO agree on... untrained people carrying firearms in public

Fortunately most Americans don't own a gun.
It's a tiny minority of multiple gun owning nutcases that keep your death toll so high.

grenosteve - Member

Last year my cousin (lives in Alabama) got tied up with an electric cord on her bed, by a neighbour who broke in, while he robbed her flat.

Lucky the neighbour didn't have a gun, or find her gun. 💡

I was showing that people will kill and its not the tool used that needs banning

Licensing and restricting firearms would reduce the flow to the criminals.
A classic example is Chicago.
The gun nuts go on about the number of shootings there and the fact it has strict gun laws as being a case against gun laws.
However they skip over the minor detail that less than an hour down the road they have some of the slackest gun laws in the country. So there is a constant supply of "legal" guns.

Now that I DO agree on... untrained people carrying firearms in public , even if something did happen the adrenaline of the situation would have them firing everywhere

Quite. And that's a Problem. I expect most people with guns in the US believe that they're a good shot (see also, "above average driver") and many will think they're the ghost of John Rambo. But even if reasonably competent, a lot of people would go to pieces in an actual firefight.

You'll never rid America of guns for the simple reason that all other things aside they just really really [i]like[/i] them. But I reckon having a mandatory training course to get them to a decent standard and teach them about things like safe storage would be a big help. The notion that in some states you can just pick one up along with a gallon of milk is just looney tunes.

get the feeling she would have been in a very horrible situation if she hadn't got free...

She'd have been burgled and wouldn't have someone's death on her conscience for the rest of her life. Beyond that it's guesswork and American "thank god I had a gun" logic.

Fortunately most Americans don't own a gun.
It's a tiny minority of multiple gun owning nutcases that keep your death toll so high.

There's truth here. Guns:people in the US is about 1:1, but gun ownership is about a quarter of the population.

This is interesting though:

https://qz.com/1095899/gun-ownership-in-america-in-three-charts/

[i]"The average American gun owner owns three guns, according to a 2015 survey conducted by Harvard and Northwestern University. More than a half of them own just one or two, whereas 14% of them–7.7 million or 3% of the US population–own anywhere between eight to 140 guns. [b]This 3% of the population owns half of the civilian guns in the US.[/b]"[/i]

My brother in Michigan sometimes sends me long emails agonising about several aspects of life in the USA, mostly his wife's irrational behaviour and insecurity and Americans' love of guns. He reckons the Wild West is still fresh in the psyches of Americans, most of whom are only a few generations descended from Europeans who fled persecution or poverty to establish a new life, which they did by killing indigenous Americans and taking their land by force.

Cougar - Moderator

But I reckon having a mandatory training course to get them to a decent standard and teach them about things like safe storage would be a big help.

Always seems to me like this is the button to push- the "responsible gun owner" line, "So you want a gun to defend your family? Good for you! But it takes more than just a gun to defend your family, you need to know how to use it safely, you need to know how to keep your family safe from it". You could have a video delivered by Captain America to really drive the point home.

But the trouble is, the definition of "responsible gun owner" seems to be "all gun owners who haven't yet gone on a killing spree". You even hear the line trotted out after accidental shootings- "X has been a responsible gun owner for 10 years, today there was a tragic accident where her son shot her baby" So even that might be a hard thing to reset.

Me, I don't accept "it can't be fixed"- it'll take a long time but then it took a long time to get all these guns into circulation in the first place. It's not impossible, it's just very hard. As soon as you stop the flow of legitimately bought firearms and ammunition into the market things start to choke. And "only criminals will have guns" is exactly the point, you no longer have to wait for a person with a gun to murder someone before you can arrest them, they're a criminal just for having the gun so you can arrest them on the way

Also, I absolutely hate when people say "discounting suicides", as if they just don't matter. And similiarly, the number of times you see "black on black" as a synonym for "gang related" and therefore also ignorable is flat out disgusting.

Also, I absolutely hate when people say "discounting suicides", as if they just don't matter. And similiarly, the number of times you see "black on black" as a synonym for "gang related" and therefore also ignorable is flat out disgusting.

"The average American gun owner owns three guns, according to a 2015 survey conducted by Harvard and Northwestern University. More than a half of them own just one or two, whereas 14% of them–7.7 million or 3% of the US population–own anywhere between eight to 140 guns. This 3% of the population owns half of the civilian guns in the US."

I don't really have much of an opinion about gun ownership in America. They might share a common language with us but are a different country 4,000 miles away with a totally different culture and mind set on very many things. Not sure why we have this preoccupation with things American.
But owning multiple guns is no different to them than a STW'er owning many different bikes. Different guns for different things, or collectors like we might collect stamps or something, just a hobby.

deker - Member

[b]My other hobbies include firearms which people keep trying to clamp down on[/b], do you know how many people were killed by legally owned semi-automatic rifles before Michael Ryan went on the rampage - NONE, do you know how many were killed with LEGAL pistols before Thomas Hamilton? Again NONE

The easiest way to make the place safer isn't to target legally owned firearms but to actually enforce a proper sentence on the criminals using them

Genuine question, what sort of "firearms" do you own and why?

Aside from sporting pistols for target shooting and a bolt-action rifle or a breech loading shotgun for vermin and game shooting, I can't see any justifiable reason for owing a gun.

EDIT: and to be honest I find the latter two pretty difficult to objectively justify.