US 'experimental' execution. WTAF!!

Not even slightly surprised. It is the US after all.

They've been experimenting with random drug cocktails for years. Nothing new unfortunately.

Performative cruelty is very much in vogue in parts of the US. Tends to be a correlation with church attendance levels.

Wouldn't it just be easier and cheaper to shoot them?

It's quick and efficient, plus they're not lacking in firearms. 

It's interesting, the real torture is the 30 years of awaiting his execution.

Maybe he miffed them off by them not being able to find a vein previously so they spitefully thought up a nice unpleasant end for him.

Surely being surgically anaesthetised / sedated prior to testing out the nitrogen would have been more humane.

If they'd of used helium his last words would have been squeaky...

it seems that the method of the execution is as much a part of the punishment as the actual execution.

It’s interesting, the real torture is the 30 years of awaiting his execution.

and this.

It's how they kill animals - mix of nitrogen and carbon dioxide. Supposedly pretty quick but with an animal you can just pop it into an airtight chamber and whack the gas on.

With humans, that has rather unfortunate similarities to the Holocaust which is one of the main complaints about use of gas as means of carrying out the death penalty - plus humans are more aware and can resist by trying to hold their breath.

Wouldn’t it just be easier and cheaper to shoot them?

I think they do in some states.  That's another bizarre thing. That individual states can decide their own favourite way of killing people.  Even if it's some fag packet, untried, 'what about this' method it seems.

I'm very much against the death penatly, moral issues aside, we do know there are miscarrages of justice and wrongfull convictions, they are a thing.

But assuming there is a death penalty, I always wondered why they they can't just put them to sleep in the same way you might put a cat or dog to sleep... cheap, fast, clean, painless, they just go unconcious and don't wake up again.

I did read that a lot of drug production companies simply won't supply drugs for the execution of people, big pharma with a social concience? seems a bit ironic when the streets of america are awash with with super powerfull synthetic opioids.

It’s how they kill animals – mix of nitrogen and carbon dioxide. Supposedly pretty quick but with an animal you can just pop it into an airtight chamber and whack the gas on.

You sure about that?

The actual process of putting an animal to sleep is painless and involves the injection of an anaesthetic overdose. This is usually given into a vein, just as a normal anaesthetic would be. Animals quickly fall asleep and usually pass away while the injection is still being given. We would usually place an intravenous cannula to make this process as simple and stress-free as possible.

Sometimes an injection into a vein is not possible, either because the animal objects to being held or because the veins cannot be accessed (e.g. due to circulation problems or age). In such cases, we will give a sedative injection into the skin or muscle which allows an animal to relax and become sleepy first before we inject the anaesthetic overdose into the blood stream. We always try to minimise any stress for the animal so that he or she will pass away peacefully and painlessly.

Some animals will not move at all after they have been put to sleep, but it is perfectly normal to see some muscle movement or even something that looks like breathing or gasping for a few minutes after the heart and brain have stopped working. This is not a sign of life, but just automatic muscle movements that can go on for a few minutes after death – it is not a reason for worry or concern. We always make sure that an animal has definitely passed away by feeling the pulse, listening to the heart and checking reflexes.

I did read that a lot of drug production companies simply won’t supply drugs for the execution of people, big pharma with a social concience?

This, plus also expert medics to find suitable veins, etc.

I’m surprised they haven’t reverted back to crucifixion in public, sell the tickets and take the entire billy bob family unit to watch

We can only hope he suffered as much as his victim.

Good result I would say.

Have they considered fentanyl? 

Totally against the death penalty

but I'd bring back flogging for obvious trolling.

We can only hope he suffered as much as his victim.<br /><br />

Woohoo……daveylad is back from boffing his sister, we can now expect informed and erudite arguments regarding the pros of the death penalty 

You sure about that?

Should have clarified. It's how they kill LAB animals (and poultry as well). Can do large scale euthanasia in minutes without injecting each individual animal. There have been studies on rats and mice as to how they react to different gases.

Yes, pets are done differently as you say.
And larger (food) animals like cows are done with a bolt gun.

BBC radio did a series on death row

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001rgxf

It’s how they kill animals – mix of nitrogen and carbon dioxide. Supposedly pretty quick but with an animal you can just pop it into an airtight chamber and whack the gas on.

Not in the UK. I think most pigs are lowered in cages into increasing concentrations of CO2. Seems inhumane and very distressing to watch - I've seen it once and haven't eaten pork since. 

We can only hope he suffered as much as his victim.

Good result I would say.

We can only hope that one day you'll contribute to the forum instead of popping up predictably at every trolling opportunity.

What did we do to deserve the worst troll on the internet? He’s not even funny.

H's pet rats were euthanised by gas (by the vet I should clarify).

I did wonder why they didn't just put a bunch of smouldering disposable BBQs in the room - or is CO too painless ?

Discussion on the shortage of execution drugs

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/europe-moral-stand-us-states-running-out-of-execution-drugs-complicating-capital-punishment/

Its perfectly possible to produce a pain free quick death with the right drugs - after all thats what happens when active euthanasia is performed. 

The death penalty only exists for revenge, not for punishment or justice.

As a global society in 2024, there should be no place for it. History has repeatedly shown the plethora of issues inherent in its existence.

I did wonder why they didn’t just put a bunch of smouldering disposable BBQs in the room – or is CO too painless ?

My understanding is CO would be quite a slow death.

CO2 triggers your body to breath more, and would result in you continually gasping for air as CO2 builds up in your body.

Nitrogen on the other hand displaces the oxygen, and essentially fools your body into thinking everything is OK, until such a point it runs out of oxygen and gives up.

As with davros their is plenty of fentanyl in the USA.

It's barbaric the USA prison system. as a aside I've seen some horrible images of animal torture using gas and the death wheel pigs are hard as nails when fighting for life.

But I am biased as I've not eaten meat for 40 years

Animals...

Can they not just stone wimmin and fling men off high buildings like a civilised society?

Nitrogen on the other hand displaces the oxygen, and essentially fools your body into thinking everything is OK, until such a point it runs out of oxygen and gives up.

I am not sure its that simple.  there are two drives for breathing low O2 and high CO2.  would this not trigger the low O2 drive and thus give rise to panting attempts to breathe?

but I’d bring back flogging for obvious trolling.

I share the sentiments behind that comment but I am not convinced daveylad isn't expressing genuinely held medieval views.

I was reading the comments associated to this story in the Daily Mail yesterday, at least half were from the USA and the rest from the UK, they were almost all in line with daveylad's comment.

That after all is why many States in the US still execute people - it is popular with many voters. Although happily not with most of the civilised world.

I am not sure its that simple.  there are two drives for breathing low O2 and high CO2.  would this not trigger the low O2 drive and thus give rise to panting attempts to breathe?

It's certainly not my area of expertise, but my understanding is that's the build up of CO2 that causes you to breath harder, not a lack of O2. However I'm sure somebody will clarify.

Execution just brutalises society.

daveylad isn’t expressing genuinely held medieval views.

he does have a remarkable talent for always taking an objectionable view, whilst still having that ‘could be genuine’ vibe though.

Imagine having all those views, all the time…

Likewise can’t say I’m shocked by a backwater state testing on humans.

I was reading the comments associated to this story in the Daily Mail yesterday, at least half were from the USA and the rest from the UK, they were almost all in line with daveylad’s comment.

I'm not enirely sure the comments section of daily mail articles is the best place to find a balanced and representative view of society as a whole. 😉

MC there are two drives - of that I am sure.  carbonic ( high CO2) and Hypoxic ( low O2) and they interplay .  I only know of the interaction between the two in end of life care tho - gives rise to Chayne Stokes breathing as they get out of sync at the end of life<br /><br />I do not know how they play out in this sort of scenario.

edit - I did a quick search and found stuff thats far to technical for me to understand and there seems to be some dispute about what happens in hypoxia

the build up of CO2 that causes you to breath harder

That's my understanding too - hence the dangers of liquid nitrogen or helium, there's nothing to make you realise you are asphyxiating, other than the hypoxia making you disorientated and incapable, so while you might be fleetingly aware it's a nice light-headed feeling and you don't particularly want to get away even if you could. Then you're unconscious, and then eventually brain damaged after hypoxia properly a few minutes later.

The alarms are set at a level of 02 that are below normal, but still above survivable, if they were at the lower limit then you'd hear the alarm but NGAF and might try dancing to it or something daft.

A litre of liq N2 creates almost 0.7 m^3 of gas, liq He even more. Liq He being lighter than air and also flashing to gas faster is particularly hazardous as it rises compared to air and fills the room from the top but (so I was told) as you fall unconscious and fall over you then go back to a more oxygen rich atmosphere and crawl out..... maybe.

Woohoo……daveylad is back from boffing his sister, we can now expect informed and erudite arguments regarding the pros of the death penalty

An interesting post to try and claim some high ground.

His sentiment is not that uncommon, and I understand the desire for "vengeance", even if I disagree with it as a basis for executing someone.

I’m not enirely sure the comments section of daily mail articles is the best place to find a balanced and representative view of society as a whole

I wasn't looking for balanced views! Obviously.

I do sometimes find it fascinating to read the opinions of people whom I sometimes feel are a different species to me.

I am currently reading a lot of articles from Israeli news websites. I am frankly gobsmacked by some of the comments on those.

Should have clarified. It’s how they kill LAB animals (and poultry as well). Can do large scale euthanasia in minutes without injecting each individual animal. There have been studies on rats and mice as to how they react to different gases.

Even the Animal labs are moving away from CO2 euthanasia for ethical reasons (in the UK).It was the typical method small rodent euthanasia in large numbers.

I am not sure its that simple.  there are two drives for breathing low O2 and high CO2.  would this not trigger the low O2 drive and thus give rise to panting attempts to breathe?

It’s certainly not my area of expertise, but my understanding is that’s the build up of CO2 that causes you to breath harder, not a lack of O2. However I’m sure somebody will clarify.

Typically, the CO2 was/is fed in at a low and slowly increasing rate, as a sudden increase in concentration is irritating (like inhaling fizzy drink gas). if the flow rate is low, CO2 intoxication (without irritation) leads to unconsciousness *before* their bodys automatic 'last gasp' low O2 reflex kicks in (as TJ rightly described). So death (in small rodents) is a 20-30 min process, with them being unconscious after 5 mins, and being largely unaware of what was happening.

With all that said, it's now seen as sub optimal method of Euthanasia, with more risks associated to the animal.

Agreed that 30 years on death row (effectively solitary confinement isn’t it?) sounds worse than 30 minutes of slow suffocation.

The US does seem to differ from the rest of the first world on their treatment of criminals, and it doesn’t seem to be working out so well for them.

generally I’m against the death penalty for murderers, but the article indicates he was acting as a hit man for want of a better phrase, so that changes my view a bit on the whole crime of passion and rehabilitation arguments.

thieves, and bike thieves in particular, I’d happily see executed however.

“That it happened in a supposed Western democracy is unbelievable.”

this is where you went wrong.

The USA is not a Western democracy.

it’s a third world country with electricity.

Inherently racist and thick as mince barely scratches the surface 

I guess I feel particularly sensitive to this because I have seen many folk in respiratory distress at end of life and its awful.  This includes Mrs TJ

there are two issues here - is the death penalty morally right and is this "cruel and unusual punishment"

I am very much against the death penalty but have an interest in self euthanasia. 

I'm not an expert but I think the main respiratory driver is high CO2, CO just displaces oxygen without causing respiratory  distress hence all the warnings about disposable barbeques in tents on campsites, it is also a popular method of suicide in Japan I understand. And you get a sausage before you go.

I recently read about a suicide pod being developed in Switzerland that uses nitrogen, they said death should follow unconsciousness and take 10-30 mins again by displacing oxygen and without distress. I wonder which is accurate.

is the death penalty morally right and is this “cruel and unusual punishment”

Kinda, but nah. Yeah.

I am very much against the death penalty but have an interest in self euthanasia.

I thought helium was the thing for 'exit hoods'.

I thought helium was the thing for ‘exit hoods’.

I think i'll stick with the sausage thanks

guess I feel particularly sensitive to this because I have seen many folk in respiratory distress at end of life and its awful

It’s absolutely awful, COPD and life threatening asthma especially. Their eyes beg you to help one way or another, sometimes you just can’t.

Yup - its really triggerd me now.  I shouldn't have contributed to this thread.

I am sorry if I have seemed lighthearted in this thread, and if thats caused any distress. My interest comes from watching friends and family go through terrible deaths with no way out. I am reaching the age where I am getting more likely to get ill, and I'm not going to leave it to our government to decide whether or not I am allowed a peaceful and painless end. I don't fear death, I fear a bad death.

Thats not what distressed me sweepy. Nothing you said - I too can be very flippant

the idea of this man dying like that is what triggered me. Brought back some nasty memories

That’s why I have my exit planned for when my spms gets to the stage of needing excessive help for my daily function, mum already does everything in house for me, I can stand and shuffle about by bars fitted around house but I feel my arms and upper body going rapidly south, when I can’t wipe my own arse or wash myself (I’m already down to one shower every few weeks due to effort involved) then I’m gone. Mum, brother and closet mate know what’s coming.

Sorry TJ, didn't anticipate that when starting the thread. Sweepy, a different subject to the OP, but I agree. I think we should all have the option to go on our own terms when the time comes.

again blokeuptheroad - not your fault - mine for contributing and getting involved.  Ta tho

CO2 triggers your body to breath more, and would result in you continually gasping for air as CO2 builds up in your body.

Only at lower levels, above 10% its toxic and throws your lungs into respiratory arrest. Which I'd imagine is pretty grim in itself.

I have similar memories my friend. This isn't really the thread for it but I do wish we could be allowed clear information and the autonomy to act.

The death penalty is an abomination, it shouldn't have happened but nobody there was impartial, he wanted to live, his representatives wanted him to live and so did opponents of the death penalty, others wanted him to die, and some of them wanted him to die as unpleasantly as possible. If we had a clear picture of the efficacy of nitrogen as a means of euthanasia rather than execution many people could be spared fear and suffering when they face the end.

CO just displaces oxygen 

Kind of - it's not just displacing in the lungs, CO binds to haemoglobin and outcompetes oxygen for the binding sites hence why even low levels can lead to chronic poisoning. Get a detector and sweep your wood burner chimneys!!

sweepy / somafunk

I have started some threads around dignity in dying.  want to open them up again?

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/dignity-in-dying/

I recently read about a suicide pod being developed in Switzerland that uses nitrogen

That would be this one. The inventor Philip Nitschke is Australian. He has sought advice regarding the legality of its use in Switzerland.

I reckon going out I the cold is a better way to go than a capsule full of nitrogen.

TJ, I would, but I think the moral argument has largely been won and now the real obstacle is our lawmakers, and religion. Drugs similar.

What i want is honest discussion of an individuals options should the state not allow assistance, and that is rarely welcome possibly for valid reasons.

I did read that a lot of drug production companies simply won’t supply drugs for the execution of people, big pharma with a social concience? seems a bit ironic when the streets of america are awash with with super powerfull synthetic opioids.

Don't be silly 😀 they just don't want the companies name associated with it, it might affect sales....

sweepy - sent you a PM

I did wonder why they didn’t just put a bunch of smouldering disposable BBQs in the room – or is CO too painless ?

I think one of the complications is that some “humanity” rules seem to entitle the convict the right to have a religious representative with them - so they can’t simply fill an air tight room - you need to wear a positive pressure mask to supply the gas.   Still seems odd that they can’t use ether/chloroform as part of the mix - those are easily manufactured and widely available without pesky drug companies getting involved.

nothing they do really surprises me - we only treat them like a civilised country because they are mostly white, speak English and are economically prosperous.  Take away any of those elements and we would be much more critics of their human rights.

UN: ‘Death penalty is an anachronism that doesn’t belong in the 21st century’
Following the execution of Kenneth Smith, Ravina Shamdasani, spokesperson for the United Nations Human Rights Office said that the death penalty was “an anachronism that doesn’t belong in the 21st Century.”
“We deeply regret the execution of Kenneth Eugene Smith in Alabama despite serious concerns that this novel and untested method of suffocation by nitrogen gas may amount to torture, cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment,” she said.
“Let's just bring an end to the death penalty. This is an anachronism that doesn't belong in the 21st century.
“There is no proof that the death penalty deters crime, but on the contrary, there is a lot of evidence of miscarriages of justice. The death penalty is inconsistent with the fundamental right to life, and we urge all states to put in place a moratorium on its use as a step towards universal abolition.”

Since 1973, 196 former death-row prisoners have been exonerated of all charges related to the wrongful convictions that had put them on death row.<br /><br />

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/innocence

One thing I have respect for Micheal Howard for.  He used to be in favour of capital punishment but after the Guilford and Birmingham acquittals he publicly changed his mind as they would have been hung.

Its one of the issues with capital punishment.  Mistakes get made and although getting out of prison with compo is not a great recompense for years inside its a darn sight better than being in a grave

Really good interview with a US based UK lawyer on The News Agents.

Just highlights how mental the system is over there but also highlights problems with the UK justice system as well.

Well worth a listen.

https://www.globalplayer.com/podcasts/episodes/7DrhkE2/

Executions don't brutalise society. Anti social scum do. Bloody good idea this. If death isn't enough deterrent then maybe a painful one will help.

Crime must be punished. Heavily. Persuasion doesn't work with criminals. More to the point, it has nothing to do with us so people should mind their own business.

^^^
Nearly every single in that post is just incorrect.

Looks like something from the Daily Heil comments.

Wow. Calm down Judge Dredd. Have you considered a move to Saudi Arabia? You'd love it there. Though perhaps you'd prefer it if they used butter knives instead of swords to make the pain levels a bit more to your liking.

More to the point, it has nothing to do with us so people should mind their own business.

And yet here you are, doing the exact opposite of that.

Good podcast Gobuchul 👍

Most of the episodes are good but I thought that was exceptional. Very informative.

Mattsscm - then explain why the US with its punitive judicial system, 3 strikes and you are out and death penalty has such a high crime and murder rate whereas Sweden with a low rate of imprisonment, a judicial system based around rehabilitation has such a low crime rate

Mattsccm is a troll, he’s got form for being a dick 

IMO people can do as they wish with their own life as they see fit, so long as that make them "happy". (Note: all major religions prohibit taking own life)

However, when a person crossed the line by taking or violating others life, against the will of those who wish to continue living etc, such as murder, they need to face or accept the consequences.  If the consequences mean capital punishment by the state in a horrific way so be it.  Revenge has nothing to do with it.

Well, unless the murderer can turn back the clock and to put things right again, they should face the penalty in whatever form there is deems fit by the society (law).

"Revenge" etc in the form of capital punishment impose by the state is just a "closure" for the victim(s).

If the guilty person is really showing remorse or "repent" of his/her past action, then guilty will naturally understand or accept that forfeiting his/her own life for the past heinous action is the "law of the nature".   It is when the guilty fights the law to stay alive that prevents the closure and acts against the balance of the nature.  i.e. action has consequences.

In the event of wrongful conviction (self defense etc), then either the investigation continues by proofing the innocence or letting the nature takes it course. i.e. the latter is rooted in the belief that "karma has ripen".

No place for religion in this conversation chewkw. So your karma stance means nothing. Also your law of nature line makes absolutely no sense at all. No death penalty in nature. America is simply a backwards country with a host of issues. The death penalty has no place in a modern society and doesn’t work as a deterrent to crime at all.

The US is more than capable of having somewhere for a convicted person to spend the rest of their lives so the reason for executing them makes me wonder if its more about a message to keep the rest of the population in check(doesnt seem to have worked)

Personally I think the practise should be banned, and as above a whole life tariff imposed, which at least means if that person is found innocent years or decades later, they at least have someone to release.

No place for religion in this conversation chewkw. So your karma stance means nothing. Also your law of nature line makes absolutely no sense at all. No death penalty in nature. America is simply a backwards country with a host of issues. The death penalty has no place in a modern society and doesn’t work as a deterrent to crime at all.

Nothing to do with religion. Since the discussion is about moral (some of the threads starting taking about moral etc) then some forms of association with "religious" belief is normally present.

If the discussion is about the "moral of science" (as in we created death penalty for revenge etc) then moral does not come into the discussion other than the way the system works. i.e. it is the law of the science or moral is injected into Science. Science itself does not distinguish the good or bad moral. It has no belief other than the way things work.

I used the term "nature" as in everything in this existence falls into the realm of "nature" as far as I am concerned.

Death penalty has been in place since the existence of mankind, even in the animal kingdom death penalty is imposed in various form that human interpreted differently.

Just because a death penalty is apparent in certain society, it does not signify a backward society other than the consequences of a particular action.

Deterrent to crime etc? It is not always about deterrent. It might work for some but will not work for others. By applying the logic of science (not a good example), if a product is damaged we simply discard them. If we were to repair them, there is no guarantee this can prevent other similar product from being damaged. The only way to prevent the product from being damaged is to ensure future similar product is made properly, otherwise we discard them.

That’s some of the most astounding bullshit I’ve ever read! That’s quite the statement considering some stuff you’ve posted over the years. I don’t even know where to start so it’s safest not to bother

That’s some of the most astounding bullshit I’ve ever read! That’s quite the statement considering some stuff you’ve posted over the years. I don’t even know where to start so it’s safest not to bother

As I mentioned many times in many other threads, there seem to be inconsistency in "rational thoughts". i.e. science vs phenomena or belief whatever.

Science itself has no emotion other than pure logic and rational. Is capital punishment a science? i.e. system?