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My son’s been contacted to ask if he wishes to sign up for an advanced apprenticeship in the submariner part of the navy. He was hoping for a similar role in the air arm.
Is there anyone willing to give him a frank description of what it’s like? I have absolutely no knowledge of what he’d be letting himself in for......
He has to reply by the end of the day, so if you’re willing, perhaps a telephone call might work best.
Thanks so much, BOAS
Can’t help but keen with anticipation that STW will smash it.
Tell him to watch Das Boot, that will give him an idea.
Might as well start him with the basics - how does he feel about being stuck with 100+ others in a tin can for 3 months at a time?
He'll be in the right place to survive a nuclear war!
how does he or you feel about dying. If you go into the forces this could happen.
This is purely anecdotal; I've no direct experience of my own, so please consider this alongside more informed perspectives.
However, two former colleagues of mine had a lot of experience working with submariners and their families on the Faslane base. One was directly employed in a military role. One was a Children and Families social worker in the relevant local authority. Both described high rates of alcoholism and domestic violence amongst submariners.
Watch out for the coffin dreams.
I used to work with a lady whose husband was an XO on HMS Repulse.
When he came home from sea, he stank so badly that she made him strip bare in the garden and turned a hose on him before she would let him in the house.
Fresh water is apparently at a premium in the sealed environment of a submarine. Personal hygeine standards are set pretty low due to water rationing.
As is personal space..... Bunks are shared by three men on a rotating 8 hour shift pattern. When one exits the bunk, the next guy is in while it's still warm.
how does he or you feel about dying. If you go into the forces this could happen.
See also;
Crossing a road
Driving, or being a passenger in, a car
Riding a bike
Landyachting
Golf
Oh, and just simply existing. Death happens there as well.
OP, I know someone with a job that sees them spend a lot of time in subs, not a submariner per se however. Will see if I can track him down* and point him your way.
* Easier said than done sometimes...
He’ll be in the right place to survive a nuclear war!
Or to help start one
I've worked with former Submariners and its a complete commitment. Worst case is a three month cruise in a 'Bomber' not surfacing and extremely limited comms with home. If the Careers Office have to have an answer by the end of the day its not going to let him make an informed decision. If he has his heart set on the FAA the Submarine Service is very different. Don't let the CIO railroad him by offering a different branch with instant entry when with a bit of time and patience he can do what he wants to do.
I should add that I think people in the forces do a great job protecting us all and admire them. It's just the adverts on tv do not show war.
If they need an answer now, then the answer is no.
IMO
I know a gentleman who is currently serving in the silent service. Drop me a PM and we can organise putting you in touch.
perchypanther
Member
I used to work with a lady whose husband was an XO on HMS Repulse.
When he came home from sea, he stank so badly that she made him strip bare in the garden and turned a hose on him before she would let him in the house.
Fresh water is apparently at a premium in the sealed environment of a submarine. Personal hygeine standards are set pretty low due to water rationing.
As is personal space….. Bunks are shared by three men on a rotating 8 hour shift pattern. When one exits the bunk, the next guy is in while it’s still warm.
Both Vanguard and Astute classes no longer require hot bunking. He'd be hoping to avoid the remaining Trafalgars for many more reasons anyway
I don't believe the hygiene thing is quite as bad now either, but still a tad stinky
No experience with submariners but father in law was FAA CPO and fixed helicopters for his whole navy career then left to run sims for westlands or somebody. He loved it and would recommend that bit of RN, not sure I would recommend someone to take on such a big commitment in something they know so little about.
When he came home from sea,
he stank so badlyhe was so sex deprived that she made him strip bare in the garden and turned a hose on him before she would let him in the house.
Fixed it for you
good answer beaker - a rushed decision isn't the way to go, I bet if he doesn't get into FAA then there will be the option of subs available another day.
Friend of mine was a navigator on a sub - great guy, completely normal. BUT the stories of the stuff they got up to were pretty disgusting!
If your son wants to do the same in the AA does he want to fly or just fancies the AA more?
(personally if it was my son I'd be suggesting he hang on and try for what he really wants - the AA and subs are really quite different)
Perhaps he’s been mulling it for a while, but if not it strikes me as pretty bad form to expect an answer about something like this at short notice.
Morning,
I did 6 years in the navy although on surface fleet side. Personally if its not what he wants to do then I would say no. I know people that were submariners and loved it but it is a completely different way of life even compared with surface ratings. I couldn't ever imagine being under water for the time they go with minimal access to the outside world. Depending on size of submarine then I believe they still 'hot bunk'. So basically sharing a pit with the opposite number of your shift. I think they are constant 12hrs on 12 hours off etc.
If he his heart is fleet air arm then stick with it. They are probably only trying to shoe horn him into Submariner due to gaps in manning. I had same call, I want to be an Artificer but was told no entry for a year or two 'but you can do this instead and join next month. I joined the next month :-).
See also;
Crossing a road
Driving, or being a passenger in, a car
Riding a bike
Landyachting
Golf
Oh, and just simply existing. Death happens there as well.
+1.
I work in construction in the water industry, at least half of which is in sewage treatment and I consider that a dream job compared to being shut in a metal tin under the sea. Must take a special type, speaking of which we have a number of ex-forces on the company and of them the three submariners are three of the most awkward people to work with I've ever come across, so stubborn and bloody minded it's untrue. Could just be a coincidence though I guess.
As others have pointed out, not a decision to be rushed- I wouldn't trust an employer who uses that kind of pressure. But I suppose they've stopped the actual press-ganging.
This is a guy I went to school with, his CV is frankly ridiculous 🙂
I doubt he remembers me, but you could try dropping him an email and mention my name (Jason Wood) or my brother (Gavin Wood) from Crossley's in Halifax.
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/alan-daveney
I have worked with three submariners.
They were all a bit crazy especially after a drink.
One of them assaulted another for letting him down for a lift home.
They knew what they were on about and definitely enriched my apprenticeship.
🙂
how does he or you feel about dying. If you go into the forces this could happen.
According to this: “Overall, in 2018, the UK Regular Armed Forces were at a statistically significant lower risk of dying compared to the UK general population.” (but I guess they would say that!).
However, I’d be worried about ethical implications (e.g. killing other people), adjusting to life after the forces, impact on relationships, long-term mental and physical health...
Could just be a coincidence though I guess.
It is, plenty ex-Submariners here (and I used to work in Faslane as a civvie) and they're normal(ish)
According to this: “Overall, in 2018, the UK Regular Armed Forces were at a statistically significant lower risk of dying compared to the UK general population.” (but I guess they would say that!).
They did pick a period of peacetime for that statistical comparison. The full report concedes that the mortality rates (well, for the army at least) were a tad higher than the national average during the Helmand campaign (unsurprising, really!)
Suggests that you get a higher proportion of fit and healthy adults in the forces than in the general population, though. 🙂
No experience of submarines (other than a boat visit in training) however I did 22yrs in the FAA, if he’s set on joining then the Senior Service is the way to go, and the FAA the best of the branches (I may be biased)
But a word of caution, it is called Service for a reason, he may serve wherever the need arises, for however long it’s required at any time. If he’s single then it’s a fine life, relatively good job security if he remains within the agreed restrictions (and for ‘modern’ youngsters they will be classed as restrictions) and the life rewards can be amazing, friends for life and endless tales of things few will see.
Engineering is engineering, if he’s set on aircraft then the FAA is niche, but he will have civilian equivalents and he will see the world. Submariners have extra pay because of the conditions, the money is good and the conditions are not that arduous BUT he will not see the world or just be able to get a view of the horizon and a breath of fresh air whenever he wants.
If it was me I would wait for the FAA (....and undoubtedly the recruiter will be trying to fill a undersubscribed entry, undersubscribed for a reason)
Good luck to him whatever he’s decides.
I managed 24 years with 5 deployments including iraq and Afghanistan outside the wire and didn't die.
Such a miserable and cynical point to pick.
I'd push back and wait for the FAA, aviation is far better with greater opportunities to see the world and for future employment.
My son was offered a great deal by the Navy to go on the subs, including paying for his degree, straight after his A levels.
He was dissuaded quite robustly by a couple of serving submariners whilst on his first week who said that he was too young for it and he should give it a few years then come back if he still wanted it.
He's now a paramedic in training and loving it.
Your son can accept at this stage and explore whether it's what he really wants to do.
My advice would be to accept and then he can spend more time thinking about it; Zach had months of hoops to jump through before it got to that sign on the dotted line moment.
Worst case scenario is a year out which your son might need support with; my lad was convinced that he'd be totally left behind with the year out. Us a bit older know a year is **** all.
"I’d push back and wait for the FAA, aviation is far better with greater opportunities to see the world and for future employment. "
^^ this ^^
One day to apply?
Presumably there will be some kind of finding-out and decision-making period post application?
One day to decide to go on subs?
One day to apply?
Presumably there will be some kind of finding-out and decision-making period post application?
One day to decide to go on subs?
They were really pushy with my lad to get his answer in much the same way - I suspect it puts a tick in a box and a cross in others.
My brother was on the subs for (I think 11 years) out of Faslane. Many antics, drunkeness, coffins dreams, and harsh conditions, but obviously made some great mates for life. He did say if you're on the subs you either become an alcoholic or fitness addict.He had some great experiences despite extended lengths of time under the sea with no idea where he was.
He was a mechanic so got his own bunk rather than hot bunking as mechanics are so fifthly and sweaty from the job. As mentioned hygiene options are very limited.
When he left it would seem they were really good at setting up with additional training for work outside the forces, but the reason he left was that as a mechanic he was in high demand and they wouldn't let him move on to other areas within the forces; he wanted to go for special forces.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0008313059/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_-xn-DbM2N1Y8Q
Skimmed through this in Waterstones the other day, might be worth a read?
Fresh water is apparently at a premium in the sealed environment of a submarine.
Must be incredibly frustrating considering there's a nuclear reactor which could run a desalination plant without difficulty.
Another option is perhaps getting and apprenticeship with BAE systems (if that’s what they’re still called) or Qinetiq etc
Fresh water is apparently at a premium in the sealed environment of a submarine.
Russian Typhoon subs had a swimming pool. Pesky Reds!
Thinking longer term the transferable skills from aviation would be better than from a sub. But he might be the best plumber when the chips are down.
Russian Typhoon subs had a swimming pool. Pesky Reds!
Seriously? That would be very impressive!
Pool is stretching it but still impressive!
Wow! Thanks so much for the responses everyone.
My son’s been reading these as well as doing a bit of research. He’s decided not to go for it this time - the advice about being too young hit home and the bit about having less than 24 hours to make a decision that may commit him to something for so long was something I’d already pointed out, but hearing it from someone else as well made him think twice.
As always, STW is a font of all things. Many thanks 🙂
Ben / Blob On A Stick
Get him to seriously consider getting into Aviation Engineering, real shortage of them, well paid, lots of good training, very transferable, More options when you come out, work on / play with big boys toys.
+2 Aviation engineering. Up to 2012 I worked for an private charter airline. Our Maintenance Director was predicting there'd be a shortage of engineers as very few recruits were being taken on & trained. Salaries when he was trying to recruit were climbing rapidly.
Being on submarines comes down to character a lot of the time, you're either ok with it or you're not.
I would never put people off by saying they are small and cramped, V boats are huge, T boats are smaller but not tiny and the new Astute boats are decent size.
They do have a certain smell about them, worse if you're a back afty. Its just a place of work, most of the time you don't know if you are moving. You get up go to work and when you are finished you might go to the gym, watch a film, study, read etc.
Jobs wise, I was in communications, but any engineering role is an ideal career and can lead to some fantastic opportunities whenever you leave. Lots of my mates are now senior engineers at BAE and within the nuclear industry. There is a lot land based roles as well, not at sea all the time although a couple of friends who are still in 25+ years are saying its getting a bit tougher due to reduced numbers.
Anyway, being told to make a decision in a few hours is not great and I wouldn't advise it.
FWIW when I joined I didn't get told I was going on subs until they put the train ticket to Plymouth in my hand! Even then it was 6 months before they decided I was up to the task.
Just remembered White101 comes from the accommodation block and room I had at Faslane. It may have a new carpet since I left but I imagine its still pretty crap!
V boats are huge
Massive, still got naff-all actual space inside
(Unless this is in your time) You’ll be saddened to know that the accommodation at Faslane has all been getting rebuilt over the last 12 years or so
Slightly off topic, interesting comment about submariners still going into the nuclear industry. After reading Atomic Accidents that somebody on here recommended, the author of which wasn't convinced that sub reactor drivers (approx 60MW) make good power reactor drivers (1000MW+) as its a bit like comparing a Ferrari to an oil tanker! Hopefully the civil world reactor driving training has improved, incidentally the US Navy has never had a serious accident with their sub reactors (compared to the Russians and some of their more esoteric designs (liquid sodium cooling etc)
squadra
Member
As others have pointed out, not a decision to be rushed- I wouldn’t trust an employer who uses that kind of pressure.
It does seem pretty crazy tbh, for them as well as for prospects- be a great way to put off good candidates AND to get inappropriate ones.
What happens if you sign up to one pathway and it's not working out, is there a transfer option or is it just muster out?
Barely relevant, but, a mate desperately wanted to be a submariner. He got as far as the background checks then had to have an awkward conversation with his dad about his hidden past life in the IRA.
Never trust the Navy careers office - they will try and shovel you where they have a quota to fill, not where you want to be.
Any reason why he wants the FAA instead of RAF techie?
I did 10 years in the RN on surface ships, several of the lads I joined with were drafted to HMS Dolphin at Gosport for submarine training, prior to this there was a submarine specific medical, this was after 9-10 months of basic and trade training, so sub selection prior to actually joining seems a bit odd.
IMO Submarines are a rather dull existence with very little chance for any real foreign travel which ultimately seems the only real valid reason to join todays Navy. I have contact with quite a few lads still in the job and the ultimate goal of the submariner seems to be the chance of a cushy shore job.
Surface fleet with an aircraft engineering role would be my advice.
Good luck !
I would do it. Money's great, learn skills (ideal if you don't like skewl) and chances of dying are low. 5yr minimum I think but they like more. Very tough selection just because demand is so low and likely to get lower.
Ever watched Corrie? - Peter Barlow was an ex-submariner, alcoholic with a bit of a temper and a way with the ladies. I am sure that his character was a result of careful research so ITV player is your friend!
Does sound like trying to fill quotas.
A pilot at the airline I was at had joined the RAF to fly. He already had some hrs from his time in air cadets.
Unfortunately, when he joined they had a surfeit of potential pilots. He wasnt even wrangling for jet fighter- he’d have been happy doing freight etc just so he could fly. He was told that there were comms technician places on the Nimbus (?) spy planes and he could transfer across to flight training when a place was available. However, whenever he tried it was always refused as he was “too valuable” having been trained on the surveillance equipment.
Dominic Cummings has it in his head that carriers and naval aviation are a huge waste of time and money - so I wouldn’t be surprised if he has them canned/mothballed or operating with only a small handful of F-35s.
If you read his blog and the news, you’ll note that the MOD is currently in the calm before a hugely turbulent lunatic Cummings inspired shit storm.
Don’t trust the CIO they have been know to lie and will just try to fill slots, if there isn’t a slot for engineering in the FAA try the RAF if your lad has the exam results and has passed the isometric tests then he will be in demand
Dominic Cummings has it in his head that carriers and naval aviation are a huge waste of time and money
I read he wasn’t impressed with carriers, plenty of other naval aviation though.
IMO Submarines are a rather dull existence with very little chance for any real foreign travel which ultimately seems the only real valid reason to join todays Navy.
My mate left the service in the late 80's. He thinks he's been around the world a lot but cant be sure as he only ever got off the boat when it was in the US once, Canada once and lots of times in Faslane and Portsmouth.
I read he wasn’t impressed with carriers, plenty of other naval aviation though.
Perhaps.
He thinks that a toy drone flown by a schoolboy with a grenade attached to it could sink a carrier. He thinks that the next form of warfare will be slughterbots, Black Mirror style - despite various military experts stating that the technology to swat down even the smallest of drones is fairly basic and that the economics of doing so favours the defender. He's a tech bro, who is a fan of "disruptors" and thinks a "disruption" makes everything else that came before it obsolete - despite the fact that outside of the battleship, nothing has ever become truly obsolete - technology is just re-engineered to counter the new disruptor:
eg Bows -> Chainmail and leather -> Crowssbows -> thicker Armour plate -> Bullets -> Kevlar -> Armour Piercing Bullets -> Ceramic Plates.
or Artillery -> Mechanized Armour -> Anti Tank weapons -> Thicker Armour -> Missiles -> Active Protection
He monumentally misunderstands a lot of medical science as well (which is my area), whilst constantly banging on the need for evidence based decision making in politics (which I agree with). It's just he is one of those lunatics that could be brilliant but somehow gets science and then doesn't all at the same time (eg Peter Duesburg). He describes people as hacks, whilst not realizing that the lunatic raving on his blog that stupid people think is cleaver, is actually the work of a proper, full fat hack.
I worked in the defence industry for 20 years - in the last 10 years ago looking at cross-sector skills including aircraft techs and naval engineering. Whilst there is a global demand for aircraft techs and the opportunity for travel, if you want big bucks, nuclear engineering is where it's at because there's an absolute dearth. There's also good opportunities for RN trained weapons engineers as most of the role is now looking at computers, software and diagnostics. The military are also looking at their career models to get a better balance of work/home balance to help retention but with more defence cuts looming, not sure they'll stop the flow of leavers in time. That said, it's a good way to learn a trade/skill and get relatively well paid in comparison to most of industry but above Snr NCOs the pay is probably better on civvy street and where the services struggle with retention.
Interesting advice there about looking at the RAF. I’ll pass that on.
When he phoned to decline the position they offered him an Air Engineer technician role. He’s probably going to accept that, despite it not really being an apprenticeship.
Thanks once again all!
Good luck to him. If he can’t already teach him to iron and start doing phys. The fitter he is prior to entry the better.
Another marine /mechanical engineer here, 15 years in surface ships mainly the Type 45 destroyers and new carriers, I've since left so can tell you a bit about both sides. I've got some close mates who are/were sun dodgers too, one weapons and the other dealing with the reactor. Please PM me if you want to chat about any of that!
Suppose the question is would he rather be a slave to government's poor decision making when it comes to instructing forces or be a slave to the grind in everyday life re: the rat race
I personally would skip that idea and if the want is strong in him to get with THE NAVY would be to do something on board war ships or flying fast fighter jets
24 years and counting in the RN (in fact I'm on watch now).
First off, the pressure to decide in that amount of time is nonsense and a bit confusing as, even considering quota filling, they can wait longer than that.
I'm a Warfare Officer with a surface ship background so my SM knowledge is second hand but on the plus side they are very well trained, expert and rightly proud of the fact (and the money is better). Negatively, they don't get the runs ashore that the surface cadre do and it's a demanding environment that I personally couldn't imagine coping with.
The FAA are a slightly different story in that they are based at Naval Air Stations predominately until they are required by a ship under training or deploying, at which point they proceed on board as a movable package of aircraft, spares and personnel. In years gone by the aircraft would be permanently assigned to the ship and go with it everywhere. The upshot of this new working practice is that your son could theoretically spend a good deal of time doing a lot of desirable trips.
I'm a Warfare Officer and couldn't recommend it enough when you're a single young man. However, when I joined up we'd stop in a foreign port for at least a week and had a real opportunity to look around, party, practice foreign language chat up lines. Nowadays the demands on units are far higher and a foreign visit is often around three days long (one day re-storing, one on duty and then a snatched run ashore), it's nowhere near as much fun and the exit rate amongst the youngsters reflects this.
Lastly, it's not nearly as rosy when you have a family and your three year old is hanging off your leg screaming that she won't let you leave the house and you have to prise her off before disappearing for six months (as you know though, if your son's a teen, the idea of a future family seems like a fantasy - just something to bear in mind).
Ex Royal Navy myself, but no hands on experience of working on any of the subs.
As others have said, it’s not the environment but the people that make the difference.
I was surface fleet, and not specialised in my trade further than Navigation Officer as a regular seaman officer.
What I found working with anyone in the RN who was one of the more specialised branches, ie submariner, air crew officers, mine clearance divers etc was they became one of two types of people:
They were either great people who thought that they were lucky enough to get the chance do a cracking job that they loved, or..
Smug and arrogant, who though they were above EVERYONE else in the RN as they had done more difficult training.
And not much in between.
There’s people like this in all walks of life of course.
Some advice for any ex army, navy or airforce technical engineers for career after the forces.
My background is a modern advanced apprenticeship in mechanical maintenance at an oil refinery followed by another 8 years in a sugar refinery (mostly in their steam producing boiler house). I have ended up working in the insurance inspection industry as a pressure surveyor (we also have lift & crane and electrical surveyors). We end up taking on loads of ex force engineers purely because they have seen so much kit in their time in the armed forces and better trained up. Money is good, based from home so you can work around home life as well, probably a better career move than staying on the tools.
It’s worth having a bit of thought about what he wants to do after time in the forces to direct him in to a career in the right part of the forces.
That's a really good point. A lifetime commitment is rare these days and finding something that will give a good basis for civilian roles will be worth it. As a tax payer it can be hard to think of using the military as training for a civilian career, but that's what it can (and in some cases should) be used for.
Life after the military may be just a little tougher if your CV does not have things that are directly relatable to the job market (and I say that knowing full well that a lot of infantry officers go straight in to management without direct technical skills).