[Closed] Upside Down Bikes, Know what it means?

Like crossed skis...

I'm also a big advocate of sending someone up the trail to warn people.

Not something I've heard of before, I'll be honest, and thankfully not come across. Whenever I've been involved in a cycling accident it's been in a big enough group that we've put people in the road to divert other riders or traffic

puncture repair?

I'd be tempted to put them at the crest or upside of that "feature" looks like a nice jumpy bit and landing on bikes indicating an accident would be.....

interesting people's interpretation of the photo, never in a 1000 years would I have thought that photo was taken back up the trail. It's obvs to me direction of travel stopping people before the jump, not on the landing!

yeah, I know what it means, had to do it in Morzine a few years back after one of a group had fallen and broken his ankle and we stopped to help. Judging by the amount of folk that either rode around them or stopped to remove them, it's not well known enough!

I have used my bike for this in the past.
Sadly common sense, let alone knowing a few basics such as this, is missing for many people.

Not seen it before but would slow down regardless.

We certainly need to raise awareness of how to behave on our trails. Far too many who care far too less about anything other than their own kicks..

Common sense is not actually common.

Free bike, help yourself 😀
I'll have the gold one, comes with a pump and a bottle of sprite.

Never seen it in all my years riding, but I reckon I'd work it out if I saw it. Either that or think a numpty wasn't bright enough to get out of the way when fixing a puncture. Funnily enough, I have seen [i]that[/i] many times.

OK, I'm going to be honest and say that the tone and approach of this article is pretty bad. It flips from a sensible "we should have a discussion about trail rules", to "this is already the rule and you should already know". And throws in a patronising "for new riders or those who haven’t been out in a while, they may not be aware"

There is no "crossed skis" equivalent in mountain biking. It's not an "unwritten rule". It has none of the acceptance that's needed to make that the case, if you want it to be, we're pretty much starting from scratch.

Seriously, if you asked 100 people, how many do you think would give this answer? (I don't mean like I would answer with common sense, "maybe something's wrong", I mean "upside down bikes on the trail is the signal for an accident") Try googling "upside down bike accident" and "crossed skis accident", bit different. (literally the only hits on my first 2 pages for the bike one are this article. OTOH there's a hell of a lot saying "never turn your bike upside down")

Upside down bikes like in the photo are a good way to block a trail/warn people, yes. And also suggests possible mechanicals- if I see someone with an upside down bike at trailside I'll ask if they need help. And it's common sense that if someone's made an effort to block a trail you should react and think about why... If we're going to have a rule, it's a good one.

If you want to create and popularise a rule or rather set of rules, work to publicise it and get it accepted enough so that it's actually a useful standard, fill your boots, it's a good idea. It'd be a useful part of a whole brief guide to "what to do if there's an accident".

You don't do that by just pretending it's already the case and that people should already know. Good idea; wrong message, wrong delivery. And that's a shame.

Either that or think a numpty wasn’t bright enough to get out of the way when fixing a puncture. Funnily enough, I have seen that many times.

Agree. This is the problem. If I saw an upside down bike, or a person stood in the middle of the trail my initial thought would likely be "what's this clown up to?", then probably want to ride round. Hopefully I'd realise pretty quickly, especially if arranged as in the photo. I do tend to stop and offer assistance so wouldn't go ploughing through but it's not as simple as sticking a bike upside down on the trail and hoping everyone understands what is going on.

Been riding since the start of the 90's and never come across this, however common sense would say there is some kind of problem, i mean who treats their bike like that. I would probably prefer to have someone go back up the track & warn others, if bodies are available. As has been mentioned I have seen people blocking a trail fixing mechanical's or even having a rest.
As Mountain Biking is becoming more popular it would probably be a good idea if BC / Cycling UK & any other organisations came together and came up with a consolidated guide to trail etiquette, a standard as how to deal with incidents etc. Take for example who gives way on a climb/descent some believe those going downhill should give way (as you are supposed to when driving) and some believe those climbing should give way, how to overtake slower riders safely and so on.

Well said Northwind. The writer of the article and the thread OP are the same (fairly newby rider, IIRC) funnily enough. Not dissing their newbiness by any means. But it makes you think eh? 😀

I think it's catching on.

I'd never heard of it until one of our group (very experienced from riding big events around the world) did it immediately at bike park wales after a big off.

It's a fantastic idea and saved further injuries.

Well said Northwind. The writer of the article and the thread OP are the same (fairly newby rider, IIRC) funnily enough. Not dissing their newbiness by any means. But it makes you think eh?

Although I sometimes ride like one, I've been riding for the past nine years (well, I did take a year off). I have also been working in the bike industry since 2013. The point of this article (was not to say this is the rule) it was to say I've never seen it, even when I've been riding in different parts of the world.

It's purely just for discussion, and to raise awareness following the accident and the fact people were still riding around. Sorry if the tone was off, @northwind

Oops, din't mean no 'arm, honest 😀

I didn't know about this until recently when I saw it on a YouTube vid. My first reaction was "which bellend blocked off this feature" before it clicked. It would be enough to make me think and slow down though.

I've seen the ski and snowboard thing before though.

Oops, din’t mean no ‘arm, honest 😀

Not at all, just defending my honour. Ha. As I said, I definitely do still ride like one at the best of times.

Again, just wanted to open the discussion. Didn't mean for things to come across like this is the rule and everyone should know. As I admitted, I've never seen it myself. Hopefully we don't see it often, but perhaps it can be adopted where sensible if there's a need to block the trail.

Common sense IS VERY common. Ask anyone if they have common sense and most people will say they have more than the average.

So if everyone has more than the average amount it must be very common with one poor sod with a massive deficit just to make the match balance out.

Not gonna lie never heard of this until now. Also no idea what the crossed skis thing meant either? Theres a lot of us who have no exposure to winter sports so maybe quite a big assumption?
I would stop but it would be 50:50 that I would assume its a)maybe a crash b)morons having a look at the jump and forgetting about other trail users c)morons trying to film there mate in peace and blocking the trail for others.

^^ And there's a man who's crashed once or twice 😀 (WCA!)

So if everyone has more than the average amount it must be very common with one poor sod with a massive deficit just to make the match balance out.

It’s very noble of you to take the job on though. 😉

Upside Down Bikes on the Trail, Do You Know What It Means?

I didn't know what it meant the first time I saw it, but it becomes pretty obvious once you've passed a bike positioned like this and then a casualty on the floor. Doesn't hurt to raise awareness though to reduce the number of folk trying to blast past.

Surprised no-ones been along to comment about how bikes should never be flipped upside down like that etc....

Warning: Aussies on trail

Never come across it in all my years of riding either. Curiosity would make me stop and look around. I’d assume it was somebody attempting an artful photograph who’d been caught short and needed to nip for a piss.

Never heard of it but cleary a good idea. I think I would have braked if I've seen a couple of upside down bikes on the trail

I also did not know this (or the crossed skis thing). Would definitely slow down/stop if I seen it on a trail though. Will for sure stop now that I know this. Thanks for the education

Been riding since the start of the 90’s

Must be knackered by now!

I've never seen that before but it is a good idea.

Upside down bikes don't mean anything. Its not a recognised sign and people put bike upside down all the time

Upside down bikes don’t mean anything. Its not a recognised sign and people put bike upside down all the time

Well there's really only two options:

1) I'm a total idiot who's put my bike there as I'm trying to fix a puncture without any thought as to what is going on around me or where I am.

2) I'm helping a casualty out of sight but directly on the trail, perhaps around this blind bend or over the lip of this jump so I've put the bike in a bloody obvious position where it's clear that it's been done deliberately (rather than the bike lying down where it could be the outcome of a crash or fall).

Either way, any oncoming rider should see that and think "gosh there's an obstacle there, I'll slow down / stop and investigate".

Honestly, in MTBing (or cycling in general actually), it's equally likely to be either of those options, I've seen some people put their bikes (and often themselves) in unbelievably stupid places when trying to fix it.

Upside down bikes don’t mean anything.

But if it's upside down AND blocking the trail it probably does. And now you know because today, TJ, you've learned something new. Cool eh?

In all fairness, it doesn't really matter whether people know what it means or not as one way or the other it's going to achieve it's desired effect.

Erm ... it means i am fixing a puncture.

... in all honesty there's rarely anyone around where I crash.

If it's me, either I'm fixing a puncture or trying to sellotape my derailer back on. 😆

Happened to me 4 times(2 of each) crossing the devils straircase last week. 😆 worst run of "mechanicals" in history. 😆

But aye, If I see a bike like that across a trail, I'm gonny enquire if they need help. kinda obvious if on the trail really that you should ask

Upside down bikes don’t mean anything. Its not a recognised sign and people put bike upside down all the time

Do they ?. I mean do they place two bikes side by side, across a trail in a manner that only works to block passage, especially given those in the pic are at the base of a short steep hill where you cannot see over the other side.
If someone thinks that isnt a warning sign,about what might be over the other side of that hill, then they shouldn't be outside unsupervised.

Upside down bikes don’t mean anything. Its not a recognised sign and people put bike upside down all the time

So if you saw a bike or two, across the trail like in the article, you’d carry on, at full speed, into whatever lay ahead? Would you still, having read it? What would you have done in the same situation, should you have been trying to look after an injured, immobile, rider?

Reeksy, we’re not talking about a bike upside down at the side of the trail, we’re talking about one across it, trying to block it as best as possible.

.....Awaiting pure pants counter argument....... 😀

Car in sinking sand.

@tomhoward I don't think anybody said they wouldn't stop did they?

IIRC in Rally Raid moto riders leave a helmet at the top of a dune if something's happening over the crest.

Seems risky, but it's a bit harder to drag a motorbike up a dune and turn it upside down.

I wasn’t aware, glad I read it. Don’t feel bad about the article tone. Who cares, the information has been passed on successfully.
Thanks
In the panic of a really bad off, you might not think to do it.

But if it’s upside down AND blocking the trail it probably does. And now you know because today, TJ, you’ve learned something new. Cool eh?

What I have learned is that some folk think this is a recognised signal. It isn't

Never seen it before. My initial thought would be that some ramblers won the fight, ditched the bodies and left the bikes there as a sign to others.

@Northwind summarises my feelings perfectly, I've been riding MTBs and reading the mags/forums since the late 80s and I don't recall a single time that anyone has ever mentioned this.

I agree it's a good idea, but universally recognised? /shrugs

Is there a book of recognized codes for every situation TJ. you'll have to give us a copy of your reference material.

Maybe theres meant to be a bloke waving a yellow flag 😆

Not to self for trail riding equipment
Pump - Check
Spare tube - Check
Bike tool - Check
Yellow flag - Check

I am not the only one who has never heard of this. therefore it is NOT a recognised signal. I don't ski and I knew about the crossed sticks - because that is a reecognised signal

Is there a book of recognized codes for every situation TJ.

No, which is the point.

don’t ski and I knew about the crossed sticks – because that is a reecognised signal

Interested to know how you found out about this. I absolutely did not know this when I first went skiing.

It became blindingly obvious the first time I saw it, probably on my first day.

Being a wide blue run and me moving slowly I was easily able to work it out.

The usage numbers and trail width on bike single track mean you could go years without coming across this, where it would only act as a physical barrier.

Blimey, this thread has gone into repeat mode.
OP has already said "just wanted to open the discussion. Didn’t mean for things to come across like this is the rule and everyone should know. As I admitted, I’ve never seen it myself. Hopefully we don’t see it often, but perhaps it can be adopted where sensible if there’s a need to block the trail."

we need an internationally recognised warning flag for 'circular argument - caution, once involved you cannot leave'

I think something like the roundabout sign but in yellow with black arrows

Interested to know how you found out about this.

I don't really know - probably reading up on mountain safety. Its something I have thought about and read about a lot over the years.

I think the confusion is along the lines of;
A. What is a recognizable signal there may be a problem up ahead
Or
B. What is a universally recognized signal there may be a problem up ahead.

Cycling along a trail, outwith a competition or a guided run,2 bikes that have been deliberately placed across the track, is a recognizable signal, rather than a universally recognized signal, that something is amiss up ahead, especially when the information to hand shows a blind summit where the road/trail leads that you cannot see forward enough to plan.

It's either a sign that there's a problem or its an ambush 😆
Common sense should tell you to slow down, maybe even stop, call out, go have a look see.

Never heard of it either, I've seen it plenty of times, but usually just nitwits fixing their bikes.

It will certainly be effective, first step of your DRSABC is Dangers, so as long as you have either someone to position the bikes, or your casualty does not require all consuming attention, then go for it.

And now you know because today, TJ, you’ve learned something new. Cool eh?

What I have learned is that some folk think this is a recognised signal. It isn’t

Stay special TJ.

It's pretty common in the resorts in Switzerland and France and so on, no real surprise as it's similar to the crossed ski thing. As bike parks become more common in the UK, and folk tend to ride in groups, perhaps we'll see it more here too, at the very least it slows on coming riders up (even if they sometimes try to get around bikes planted across the trail) Out on BW and in the hills, it's probably less useful

we need an internationally recognised warning flag for ‘circular argument – caution, once involved you cannot leave’

😆 I'm going with that! Officially recognised.. from now! (by me)

I’m with others that say you can’t get annoyed if people don’t understand your own made up code - the article says at first it was just one bike which is even less obvious. It would be a good clue that something was up but with all these people passing did nobody think to ask one of them to walk back up the trail stopping people at a junction? Not much point stopping everyone at the two bikes for an hour if there is nowhere to go.

I’ve seen the ski and snowboard thing before though.

But that is 1. Taught by every ski school worldwide; 2. On signs, posters on lifts and in books; 3. Used by ski patrol; 4. Not something that’s easy to confuse with ordinary muppetry!

The article, or at least it’s headline were a bit click baity - yes it’s obvious there is a problem even if it might just be a couple of folk walking the next section but to complain that people were passing it is niaive - half the moan actually seems to be that these people weren’t stopping to offer support, presumably the author is aware that on skitrails not everyone stops either if people seem to have it under control why form a crowd. If you need help you only need to shout “can I get some help here” and the timid will step forward - it’s the next level of the bystander effect, once someone else has stepped forward you can retreat into your bubble.

I've been mtbing, for over 20-years now and I've never heard or seen of that rule. it's a sensible one though.

Jesus, this place.

What's that saying about good deeds going unpunished?

Never heard of it either, sounds like a good idea. First instinct would have been to stop as well.

I've done the 'gone up the trail' in person to warn people.

Squirrelking - read northwinds answer on the first page. He sums it up well.

I have seen loads of bikes upside down on the path. Its always been muppetry.

To state this is a rule that we should all know when it is not is stupid.

Obviously bikes on the path mean slow down. However it does not have a recognised meaning in the way stated

I’m with others that say you can’t get annoyed if people don’t understand your own made up code

It isn't made up, it's just not that common in the UK is all.

However it does not have a recognised meaning in the way stated

It does, just not in the UK.

jeez, this place sometimes.

nickc - go on then. find a document that states this recognised meaning is officially accepted worldwide

I bet you cannot find any official guidence

I bet you cannot find any official guidence

I'm pretty sure I won't be able to, but last I was out in Morzine (2008), I helped guides do it and saw a couple of kids do this on two separate occasions, and once in Verbier also (in 2015/6 something like that). Get out of the wee bubble of UK biking and into Europe, and I'll bet your money that folks would have a different view on the article.

Just because there's no "official document" (and what does that even mean?) doesn't exclude the idea that something is common. Like a said, in ski resorts where they have a biking summer, it's well known, here not so much. For pretty much obvious reasons.

Now I know you don't frequent bike parks, and it's use on general trails isn't going to be that important, on high(ish) speed man made trails, a bunch of folk will now have a wee light go off in their heads if they ever see this at say BPW or Glentress...

I'm on Team TJ: I've never seen it in nearly 20 years of riding in Spain, either, so I find it hard to say it has a recognised meaning.

And while I don't think it's that bad an idea, it doesn't work anything like as well if you block the trail with just one bike - the first thing I'd think if I saw that was that it was a muppet who'd left his bike in the wrong place.
And if there's a group of you I'd say a much better idea is to send someone up the trail to warn people in person.

Interested to know how you found out about this. I absolutely did not know this when I first went skiing.

FWIW (and that’s not a lot), I was told about the crossed skis (or boards) thing by three different instructors in three different countries, Norway, Italy and France.

Good idea, never seen it myself in 15 years.

To catch on, it'll be important to teach riders NOT to put their bike anywhere near this position fixing a puncture etc...otherwise it might start causing confusion, and hesitation, when they're going gonzo.

So then nickc - its not a recognised meaning then like the crossed ski poles? I have ridden in Morzine and Les gets and no where did I see anything telling me this

Oh, I've got something new to add to this. Oh no I haven't sorry

Jeez this place. I wonder if anyone has said that yet.

Jeez this place

This. Healing vibes to Darren.

I don’t think anybody said they wouldn’t stop did they?

Then it’s done it’s job, no?

I have ridden in Morzine and Les gets and no where did I see anything telling me this

1, I'll willing to bet money that you'd not follow the instructions on anything blindly anyway, so let's call that moot. 2. I don't think the locals in ski resorts have to be told, I think they just swap poles for bikes come the summer.

Well I do vaguely recall hearing this in the past, but it wouldn't have been my first thought, so it's a useful article to remind / suggest that.

It does remind me of that slightly creepy wave that did the rounds last year in presenting something as "This is a thing, you should already know about this thing" - see also What 3 Words. There's a fine line between "option / convention" and "standard".  See also:

I'd say depending on context, any deliberate attempt to block a trail (upside down bike, pile of Camelbaks, jacket tied between trees) would see me proceed with caution - even if it's kids / NIMBY dog walkers making obstructions, they may have made a bigger one round the next fast corner.

That said, it does strike me as more likely to be innocuous than say, the crossed skis, which it's hard to imagine being done without deliberate meaning. I certainly wouldn't be calling mountain rescue just from seeing an upside down bike.

F me.

It’s a good idea common sense idea - why the bloody bell are folks still arguing over it?!

Some of us know this or some of us know that. We don’t all know the same bloody thing. Let’s just agree that this is a pretty good idea whose sole intent is to make the trails safer…

Why does there need to be any kind of argument around it??

Some of you……….

why the bloody bell are folks still arguing over it?!

STW; come for the advice about your bottom bracket, stay for argument that follows

Really good, well written article drawing attention to a widely used signal (particularly in bike parks) which many people are not necessarily already aware of.

1, I’ll willing to bet money that you’d not follow the instructions on anything blindly anyway, so let’s call that moot

I would always follow instructions - but never blindly

so lets see - nothing I saw in Morzine or les Gets on bike park trails said this was a signal. Lots of other info about what to do in a crash but not this

Really good, well written article drawing attention to a widely used signal (particularly in bike parks) which many people are not necessarily already aware of.

Tautalogy?

Widely used / many people not aware?

its one or the other surely?