[Closed] University - plan to start this year or defer?

I know there are a few HE staff on here - would be good to know what they think!

Speaking of the uni I work at - a mid-table, post-92 uni in England - no-one really has a clue. Currently we're expecting:

Fewer international students than usual...
...leading to the Russell Group coming for our lunch, to offset their loss
Autumn term could start 2 or 3 weeks late
Some courses might consider starting in Jan instead of Sep
'Freshers week' will be much reduced

So depending on how International recruitment goes, I'd imagine that demand will indeed be higher next year. Deferring might be an idea, but what would she do instead? Finding a job for the year might be tricky too.

Our lot here are thinking the other way - scrabbling around to sack off their gap years and start in September/Oct. Their thinking is that a gap year will be rubbish - no travel or work opportunities.

Any ideas what your daughter would do in her gap year? Jobs will be hard to come by.

That said, I would defer - virtual learning doesn't suit me at all (though it might suit your daughter more? I think it's more about the learner than the delivery method).

If she was good enough to get into Edinburgh this year (congrats to her 🙂 ) I'm sure she will be in 2021.

Watching developments here. Son is off to do dance, so not much can be done remotely. Looking into deferring or whether it's too late since he's accepted an unconditional offer for 2020 already. My daughter is in 2nd year and is doing exams remotely this week after weeks of remote teaching. There were meant to be loads of fieldwork and mapping trips (geology) but all now cancelled. We're not complaining or anything, but for most courses with lots of non-bookwork, I can see the sense in deferring.

My son floated similiar ideas. His first choice starts October anyway. And although virtual is being floated unis are still preparing for usual start dates.

I seriously doubt we will be in lockdown in 5 months time. It appears from the news anyway, that the peak has passed and we are only 3 or 4 months in?

My advice was to proceed as if starting, fees are not due till first day of term and things will be crystal by then.

Take your points about deferring and demand next year. I would rather see him missing out on a first term on-site than the uni of choice.

What are you gonna do for a year? Just make the best of it.

Once the fat layer of 6-figure paid University "managers" slash their teaching staff (all those on insecure contracts and those mostly teaching international students) and see that online delivery can be made to work by squeezing all the remaining "good will" out of staff, they will realise that they can continue to deliver remotely and charge the same fees, therefore increasing their profits, and give themselves yet another fat pay rise.

Thats if they have any staff left, don't forget just before this virus they were striking over yet another pension squeeze, pay equality and workload / working conditions.

So 2021 entry will probably still a large online delivery content. Although you might actually get to "go" to uni.

midlifecrashes where's he off to, vocational school or academic institution?

My daughters off to vocational upper school in September, we're assumimg things will be sorted by then, currently at a different vocational lower school which is closed, virtual classes. Hoping she might get to go back there before the end of term to finish and say goodbye to friends.

For us she's got DADA funding so could still reapply for other degree courses later, she's 16 now but many schools take them later as well, 17 and 18. So she's still got options and will keep dancing even if things don't go well in September.

My son has set himself on starting this Sept.

Worried that deferred entry will mean many more entering next Sept.

He will be in a cohort of lower numbers when it comes to employment too.

@Stumpyjon He's off to a regular Uni, he's never been into the ballet side of things and is mostly into contemporary choreography and show production. Leeds Beckett seems like it will be a good fit. The conservatiores and he were mutually disinterested without ballet, but he's 6'5" willowy strong so we can see him carrying and throwing around his classmates for the next few years.

I would apply and go through the motions and see what happens. You can pull out without any issues

Forget Uni. Son2 was planning on commercial pilot training from September. He deliberately did NOT apply to university and chose to work at Heathrow to save for training.

And how is the airline industry looking at the moment 🙁

We are looking at starting in September, but first term may be on line due to social distancing - can't get everyone in a class room or lecture theatre. Fees are going to be hammered though, leaving a massive funding gap - I'm busy trying to work through this (finance).

Just let them stay at home for a year of recreational drugs, casual sex and netflix bingeing. At least they won't have a ton of debt on top of that. Of course, the real trade-off would be some form of paid work, but who knows how likely that would be.

It might be worth thinking about the other end too - for those entering this year, if many others defer, there will likely be better opportunities to travel and less competition for jobs upon graduation. We’re expecting to provide virtual teaching up to Christmas, and have contingencies to go beyond that. For science degrees though (my area), lab work is a necessity sooner or later - any advice will be subject dependent.

@wwaswas are you in Scotland? Obviously if not there are fees implications.

Edinburgh would be a toughy to re-apply to next year. There will be more people possibly going for fewer places. Obviously if you're outside Scotland that bum on seat is worth more.

I should say that I'm currently furloughed so I'm not fully up to date on the day to day in the uni I work for (not Edinburgh, a neighbour). But basically, I think we still don't have much of a clue and for that reason we can't really give good advice to kids and so the best thing i can say about that is that it's OK for them also to not have a clue, scary as that is. Everyone's "planning" for a moving target. But the reality is it's only 4 months away, coronavirus could vanish from the world tomorrow and it'd still be sketchy come september.

I think as far as delivering teaching, you can count on Edinburgh to do their best, so the question is going to be if that's enough. (as a general observation, I believe every scottish university will want to do the absolute best for their students; but some were already very financially/resource stressed for a normal year and will just not be able to do the acrobatics needed. And once you can't do what you believe to be the right thing or the best thing, that's a pretty dangerous place to be when decision making, expediency can start to feel like inevitability. Even with the inevitable government shake of the magic money tree it's going to be a concern)

There are some things with them that will probably cause some issues- they're a big, slow moving org and they're definitely not as student/prospect focused as some, as is often the case with older/more elite/more selective unis. Not a criticism but I think it'll cause them some bother. They're pretty well resourced though and have a depth of staffing that we lack which might be more important. They don't have as much experience with distance delivery as we do but there's a lot of info sharing going on.

So I don't think you have to worry about their intentions; they'll move heaven and earth to do what they think is best for the students. Whether that leads them to actually do what's best for students is not certain. Whether what's best for all students is what's best for one student, is always debatable. This is always the case, right now it's going to be more of a thing.

What I think everyone does have to worry about, in all universities, is capability/reality meeting hopes/wishful thinking/"the show must go on". Some courses are just naturally going to be very hard to deliver, even if campuses are fully reopened there's likely to be social distancing etc, so the more contact, the harder it gets. It's mostly common sense this; you don't need to be a uni expert to see what courses need you to, frinstance, build something in a lab and which are more lecturey. I have heard a lot of "we'll figure it out" and often that's a reasonable answer and sometimes it's basically insane. There will be serious problems and failures in every institution.

Some of the other posts nailed the wider concern though. This isn't a one year thing, there'll be big impacts on next year's student recruitment, there could be issues for course funding, university internal funding... So it's not like "pause and pick up the same place". I'm not going to speculate much as it's so subject to change but it's probably stating the obvious that there are hundreds of thousands of kids thinking the exact same thing so if even 10% decide to wait it out that'll have a huge impact next year.

And yes it's going to be a bollocks of a year to do useful things with a year out- less travel, little work. Though, that will be fully understood by almost every decision maker in admissions- usually we want to see a productive or personally developing year out, this time next year we'll know perfectly well that there'll be thousands of kids who didn't do that through no fault of their own. It will disadvantage those who basically play xbox for a year but it won't disqualify them.

It is a choice between two bad options. I really feel terrible for this year's kids. Personally, 40 year old me can say with hindsight, 18 year old me in this situation should absolutely take the year out, even though he'd probably not do much of value with the year and even though he's going to do one of the courses that's easiest to deliver. And that's mostly because of the experience of it, which was incredibly important for me. It's not the same for all students. There will be some for whom the right option is to go this year, even if they're going to be significantly disrupted at uni, it'll still be right. There are just so many factors, and sadly too many unknowables.

Be very suspicious of anyone that gives individual advice. Do speak to Edinburgh, they have some fantastic people in their admissions and recruitment team, some of whom they headhunted from us 🙂

I'm really surprised that they've not introduced a deferment process. I always thought it was pretty stupid that they don't already have one tbh.

I'd crack on. If she's decided on a course get it done. See at as an opportunity to master a brave new world of self disciplined online learning. Folk holding off waiting for things to return to normal are likely to be disappointed.

It matters more what state the economy is at the end of your degree not the start.

I’d crack on. If she’s decided on a course get it done. See at as an opportunity to master a brave new world of self disciplined online learning. Folk holding off waiting for things to return to normal are likely to be disappointed.

It matters more what state the economy is at the end of your degree not the start.

Very much this. A university course offers 3-4 years of relative stability in uncertain times. Better to be ready to brave the new normal sooner rather than later.

Hi wwaswas,

I work for a few Top 100's but only with international students. We're planning on there being no face to face classes until the end of 2020, but hoping for it to get back to 'normal' by October.

In terms of online learning, I think it depends greatly on each individual university i.e. some will manage the transition online better than others because they've got much greater capacity. Now would be a good time to have EdTech startup because I understand they're inundated with requests from universities.

I think there has been a lot of criticism at universities with managing the transition to online teaching. But really, speaking as someone who has been involved in this, it was simply damage control. Trying to shift everything online in the space of a weekend was a real challenge, to say the least.

So really, what we've seen is just a hasty conversion of pedagogy and materials based on conventional models of teaching to an online format. It has not been terribly effective from my perspective but online delivery flips the 1:1 model on its head, so it's going to take some time for teachers and content producers to catch up. It took years for online retail to develop but we had literally a weekend to do it.

That said, there are still five months left before the start of the 2020 academic year, and right now universities are scrambling to get coherent, slick and user-friendly courses online. The uni/company I work for have just a few of us to work alongside some Swedish EdTech startup they bought out last year.

Already, I'm seeing the potential of it and actually I think education will never be the same after this. Online teaching and EdTech was growing already, especially now Apple, Amazon and Google have realised there is a huge emerging market, and the pandemic has lit the fuse. So basically, I think the online content will be much better for the next academic year.

I think the social side might be a bit strange - but it's not like it isn't going to by not going to university. It's something we're all going to have to live with. Likewise, as other people said, what use is a gap year if you can't go and get pissed every weekend at the pub, or go traveling, or volunteer, or go up Kilimanjaro or whatever it is that gap year students do these days (I either worked dead-end jobs or was on the dole getting stoned and mixing techno).

So I'd say go for it myself - no reason that 2021 will not be the same, so then she'll have wasted a year. Edinburgh uni will be well placed to fund the transition. Hopefully by time next spring comes, things will be sorted out and everyone will be down the pub? Finger crossed!

I teach at a uni in Canada and see a lot of good advice here. The truth is, a lot of profs have never been trained in online delivery and are playing by the seat of their pants. However, this may also be the future of post-secondary education. I would assume the intake cohort for 2021 is going to be a lot larger than this fall's, so that may affect things as well. FWIW, my son is starting uni this fall because a year spent eating my groceries and playing XBox doesn't work for anyone. And in 50 years, he'll still be telling stories of starting school in a pandemic.

My wife has been working flat out to change lectures to online delivery. It helps that they have all been recorded before but it’s a whole new world doing an online lecture and monitoring the chat. Almost need a wingman to make sure you can pick up the questions as you deliver the lectures. Add in the lack of training in how to share videos during a lecture etc and it will take time. She has to go into work for it too as our broadband is too flakey for something as important as that.

As she teaches a very practical subject it’s not sure how they are going to get on with the clinical years as yet and social distancing etc but they are trying to get a plan.

I guess I would look at what your daughter is doing. Lots of courses have very little contact time which sounds ideal for online but are based on lots of small group idea sharing which is difficult to set up especially if you don’t know the others already.

We have this question to answer as well… not helped by my daughter’s course requiring time to be spend in two other countries (joint language). No idea yet.

I seriously doubt we will be in lockdown in 5 months time. It appears from the news anyway, that the peak has passed and we are only 3 or 4 months in?

Look up the history of Spanish Flu, they got through the first peak with isolation and every one came out thinking it was over. Second peak was 10x bigger and killed 100,000s.

Hugely helpful. I've got one finishing and one starting this year.  Both don't seem too stressed which is good but still not easy

‘Freshers week’ will be much reduced

I hadn't thought about Freshers week. How are people going to get leathered and, err, conduct associated social-physical activities whilst keeping to social distancing!?

I'd say watch this space, the UCAS deadline for decisions has been put back until June for accepting offers so there's no need to be rushed into anything.

The vast majority of of institutions that are any good should have plans for the coming year in place by then I'd have thought.

Scottish institutions are massively reliant on English students for fee income so I can imagine subtle pressure being made for them to avoid deferrals.

I'd say kick the can down the road for a month and don't feel pressured as long as a response is made by the UCAS deadline and the offer is met then it's all legally binding.

I expect a lot of exam board finegling so that students aren't disadvantaged as it going wrong looks massively bad, that was the case with the first year of the non Linear A Levels.

Any updates from anyone?

No idea what to advise my eldest at the moment.

Cambridge (she doesn’t want to go there) has announced distance learning ‘till September 2021… what are other institutions doing?

Jnr is aiming for Cambridge in September 2021, hopefully it will be open!

No idea what to advise my eldest at the moment

Dunno, I did a 4yr degree and tbh the 2nd, 3rd and 4th blur into one. So much as an online course would be missing out on the fun stuff I dont think you'd really miss out on relationships/memories/STIs doing a 2yr course instead of 3.

What no ones mentioned is where are all the "freshers" going to do in 2021 if there's two intakes to house in halls rather than private houses with friends they made in year 1?

My advice to my daughter who is looking to start next year is still go for it.  Online learning is going to be different but it isn't going away anytime soon.  With everyone bailing it there is less competition the year she graduates if she can handle it.  Why wouldn't you?

Thank you for all the advice everyone and taking the time to reply - I think we're still in a bit of a holding pattern and wait and see but I suspect it'll be January at the earliest before she can move up there so she'll need to decide based on that. She could move there and do online lectures but that's a lot expense for not much gain.

My son's just coming to the end of his final year of a 4 year degree (with a sandwich year) and feeling very disconnected from the whole process. I think it's not the online lectures that are the issue for him it's the whole feeling of 'involvement' with the degree - sitting in his bedroom for 3 months trying to finish off his project has been a long old slog with very little contact from lecturers and no feeling of being a part of a 'cohort' going through the same process. Not helped by the previous 6 months of off and on strike action, tbh. Final exams appear to now be a single essay with 48 hours to complete it with whatever resources you can find online which isn't enthusing him either. He was on for a first but now seems to be saying 'a 2.1 will be good enough', which is a shame.

Some time yet, so don't think this is done and dusted quite yet.

I teach UG and I'm an admissions tutor (not Edinburgh) and although the talk at my uni is of getting ready for online in October, most academics know full well that online isn't a patch on proper face-to-face in terms of learning outcomes and skills, so it'll always be a temporary plaster. It can work in some of the 'easier' subjects but technical subjects don't get close.

Cambridge have fleshed out their plan a little- lectures will be online, but supervisions will go ahead as normal. Labs will be open, but class sizes will be smaller to allow for social distancing. They are looking at how they can open libraries etc, and getting post grad students back on site soon for a soft opening.

Cambridge (she doesn’t want to go there) has announced distance learning ‘till September 2021… what are other institutions doing?

This isn't true, BBC jumped the gun as Lapierrelady says. The University will have a hybrid provision (some courses will need face-to-face for field / lab work with physical distancing, libraries will be made available but again with details to be worked out for physical distancing) and the Colleges will decide how they will provide their tutoring - the expectation with these collegiate Universities where a lot of the learning is driven by the Colleges rather than the University is that tutor groups are small enough that face-to-face can happen.

Final exams appear to now be a single essay with 48 hours to complete it with whatever resources you can find online which isn’t enthusing him either.

It depends very much on the Uni and Department's / lecturers' opinion, but the exams have to ensure that the learning outcomes are met. If this 48 hour timed-essay is anything like my Uni/Dept implementation, it will basically be the same / very similar exam questions just set in a way that can be implemented remotely. So that all of the leg work done internally up to this point (lecturer determines the exam content, poses questions, internal review to check level and marking rubric should meet external examiners expectations for the standard of degree etc) can be retained and the learning outcomes for the graduate are met. My point is, if your son looks back at the course module prospectus and the learning outcomes, that is what will be in the exam. It will just be set as a timed assessment. In our implementation at least, you shouldn't even need any internet resources, but the students are /allowed/ open book if they want. Definitely being remote from peers when trying to do a project / dissertation is really isolating and that is an issue we are trying to work out the best way forward with.

online isn’t a patch on proper face-to-face

I think this is where we (Uni people) need to stop saying we are 'online teaching'. We are currently providing our content in an emergency situation remotely. Proper online learning like OU who have teams of 15-20 people spend 2 years developing online learning material do provide just as good if not superior learning outcomes and skills, for the right people who want to do distance learning. Trying to change your pedagogy overnight is always going to be difficult and in addition to the course content and its delivery we are also thinking about student engagement and well-being and all the other tasks that fall by the wayside.

My Uni still hasn't made a final decision about how we will deliver the 2020-2021 academic year but it is looking like we want people to sign up this year, not defer. We are likely to teach from September and have some students attend in person for e.g. lab work. I don't think a decision has been made for courses that *could* be fully remote if we still want face-to-face lectures and particularly small tutorials for the cohesiveness/social/wellbeing aspect.

While you consider the decision, is it a decision that is actually available to you? If your kid has applied for an entry this year and been made an offer, this may not translate into the ability to defer into the following year. I would be hesitant to assume that your kid will actually be able to defer without having applied for a deferred entry in the first place. Remember that there will be an entirely new cohort of applicants next year. As such, a wholesale deferral of entries almost certainly isn't going to happen as it would adversely impact on next years entry prospects for 2021 school leavers.

I would suggest that you contact the Universities in question and ask what the options are, if any? If Edinburgh is her first choice and you understand that they do not offer deferred entries then you have your answer. If she applies again next year, she will potentially be competing with a larger group of entrants if there is move among candidates to reapply next year.

Edinburgh along with Glasgow and St Andrews face a particular challenge given their success in attracting overseas students. It is now proving to be a double edged sword. Quite simply, who is going to pay around £30k a year in fees for online teaching?

If it was me or my daughter/son I would would be for deferring.

You really want to immerse yourself in the who uni life. Learning is not just about doing the lectures and studying the notes. Its about interacting with people in (and out) of an academic environment. You will get far more out of it in person than online.

Additional ‘issue’ for us is that it’s a course with a study year in Japan and some working time in France…

Lectures can easily be carried out online, especially first year one. Recorded lectures are a much better way of learning due to the simple fact that you can pause them. The lecturer-student interaction happens in tutorials that and assesment will be the issue. Labs can always be deferred to the next year.

@sanny

Interestingly, Glasgow and St. Andrews already have some modules available for distance learning, however I agree with your assesment.