[Closed] University Open Days

professors/tutors aren't all living the dream, they are under a lot of pressure - some of which includes "selling" the uni at open days as if it's the best place ever. there is a drop in student numbers due to demographics and now student recruitment is a major part of the job.
you normally know fairly early on what uni you want to go to, it just seems right, difficult to quantify the whys.
the eye-watering debt is the main difference since when i started way back in 1999

Awaiting the daughter to start this process. She's super bright but incredibly slack. No doubt will go through clearing and end up at ****ing Oxford Just to bankrupt me further. The debt is horrific. I'm pushing for a years travel then workplace degree. I'm always wrong....

Accommodation costs vary a lot.

professors/tutors are living the dream, and some of them know it.

Really, many are under lots of pressure to bring in funding, lots of long hours in the higher levels, mental health is a another issue if you do your research.

I'm not visiting open days, but I help run a couple 🙂 So here's what I say to people, from the other side.

Honestly feel is really an important thing, it's the only thing that you can only do via boots-on-ground really. There's nothing about courses that you can't learn by prospectuses, websites and other comms- pretty common for people to have skype calls or webchats. It's good to see labs or other such features if it's a hands-on subject. So don't get too tied up in presentations and that about courses, it's way more valuable to breathe the place a bit, meet real students, get a feel for place and tempo and social life and that. And demographic- the kids who're running the tours and all that are your future classmates, do they seem like you or are they all space aliens?

The "volunteers" are generally being paid so they will tend to be enthusiastic. Finding unpaid people- like, union people are generally doing open days for free- can be really useful. And it's skewed of course, nobody that hates their uni works at an open day, at least not twice, we kill them after the first time. And the ones that love it, we put in really visible places. Though, it's just as important to be able to walk backwards and talk loudly to be fair.

"Sussex was a bit meh, Reading was a lovely site, and chichester had a lovely village feel to it"

The other thing is, don't be overwhelmed by lovely. Our campus is gorgeous, and yes it does have a real community feel to it since we're outside of the city itself and totally selfcontained. It knocks people's socks off... But then, some- not all- discover they don't much like living in what is basically a park 30 minutes from the city. Others think straight away that they couldn't stand that, then realise that it's not really that big of a deal. But what really counts, isn't what the uni has but how important

(it's the entire reason I studied where I did, I turned down an offer from Edinburgh because I couldn't imagine living and studying there. It was full of Edinburgh students for one thing. I was totally unfussed about the actual green location, despite loving it now, but it was the place I could most see myself and nothing else could match that.)

The number one reason for dropping out isn't academic failing, it's unhappiness- so this stuff is important. Sometimes, it's still worth going places you don't like but you've got to really know what you're getting into.

Accomodation like jkomo mostly differentiates on costs, and then mostly on size/number of people per flat. And again, that's not all simple. We have 2 really modern, gorgeous blocks of halls, they're all over the literature, the marketing people are obsessed with them. But overwhelmingly the students say go for the cheaper option, it's all much the same after a couple of months really and the bills still need paid after the shine wearsoff. Location can be really important too-if you're not looking at a campus uni, what's the impact of say an hour a day travel on costs, life, even on study (because nobody ever took 2 30 minute bus rides to go to an hour long tutorial in the middle of second semester) Large shares on paper seem worse than small but everyone in our double sized 10 rooms/massive kitchens raves about them.

Handybar is spot on, this is a great year to be an applying student and a terrible year to be in university recruitment- there's a massive demographic hole which means that there'll be a lot less demand for spaces, which will mean both relaxing of entry requirements (*) and generally being in a buyer's market. And clearing is going to be massive, I've seen some data that suggests this'll be the all time highest number of clearing places. And of course it's not just for failures any more, loads of people will be upgrading offers.

(* This can be a trap. My brother got onto a course because they relaxed their entry requirements, it bit him in the arse later on as he wasn't a good enough mathematician for the subject. Getting in/entry isn't everything)

You're spot on about every uni finding a way to be the best. Like, we got humped in the National Student Survey last year, mostly because of redundancies which obviously had a huge impact... but shone in it for the 3 before, and guess what- we used to act like it was the only thing that mattered, now we've forgotten it exists 🙂

Check out bursaries and scholarships, there's a tendancy to go "they're for poorer people than me" and it drives me round the ****ing bend. We have a scholarship for average earning households from RUK, it's automatic and loads of people are surprised to get it. Make sure you get everything you can, be that middle class helicopter parent that works the system, nobody else will. (we have like 10 people fundraising but only 3 giving out funds, says it all)

Also look at things like placements, years abroad- I imagine History is a special case for this but it's a massive deal for some courses.

Check out the cities too if you can, you don't want to live for 3 years somewhere you hate.

Do they have to go straight to uni?

I'm a huge fan of working year out our five years, gaining life experiences and making a more mature decision about what they want to do in part of life.

I agree with the uni's all claiming to be best. We visited Strathclyde, Heriot Watt and Napier. Although Strathclyde is meant to be 'all that' when it comes to engineering, we felt that the others were more innovative, better access to tutors and workshops etc. Much nicer campus and happier students it seemed as well.

We are also hoping for degree apprenticeship / sponsor company and only Heriot Watt has a managed list of companies and opportunities - upto 50% of students on some of thier courses are on such schemes. Many recruited from being accepted on the courses.

After a year riding bikes, eldest_oab goes to Heriot Watt to start Masters in Mechatronics and Robotics. Currently looking for sponsor company.

I’ve been on both sides. I’d echo everything NW says above. We visited 10 last year - my advice to my daughter was pick the place you want to go and the course afterwards.

There’s so much focus on NSS, TEF, UNISTATS and all the other metrics that somehow rank universities. But in my experience prospective students don’t really look at them. Which I think is a good thing.

The only other advice I’d give is it’s a great time to be doing open days- warm, campus full of lovely trees and flowers, but you have to think about what it’s going to be line in Mid Jan.

There’s also a snobbery about degrees - Russell group being the worse. I don’t think past your first job interview anyone cares about where you studied. And if they do, I’m not sure that’s a place I’d want to work! There are some good reasons to study at a research intensive institution but the name on the door isn’t one of them 😉

The other note on all the gradings etc is that some of them are just ridiculous. Like, we had a big push to make sure everyone updated their qualifications in HR, so that we could get scored properly on that metric. I work in a non-educational role, my qualifications are totally irrelevant but it all goes into the numbers. A cleaner with a fine arts degree they're not using makes a university score higher than just being really good at cleaning.

Capital expenditure gets included too so stupid vanity projects boost a university's score in some- spend a million quid on a gold statue of the principal and go up 3 places.

matt_outandabout

Subscriber

We are also hoping for degree apprenticeship / sponsor company and only Heriot Watt has a managed list of companies and opportunities – upto 50% of students on some of thier courses are on such schemes. Many recruited from being accepted on the courses.

It's a bit unfair this, we helped write the rules 🙂 But yeah we are killing it, it's the sort of thing we do well being pretty practical minded. My team's got a graduate apprentice working in it, which is pretty cool.

Thanks for the exhaustive reply Northwind.

My original post was intended to be a bit flippant but as has been pointed out education is now a big business and the stakes and pressures can be high for the individuals and corporations.

Entirely agree that the gut feel is a very important emotion to take on board consideration. Sussex just felt tired and and a bit dis-organised plus the course wasn't exactly what my daughter was looking for, Reading campus felt like a small town, modern, clean, well loved but the walk to the accommodation albeit lovely on a summers day will be rubbish on a wet winters day. Chichester, as i said before felt like and cosy old village, and the uni focused on the small family togetherness of the place.

Most the tutors have come across a passionate, knowledgeable, energetic, patient. Although i have met one who i thought if it was me going there i would struggle to get on with them.

Finance is my main concern. Not the "debt" (its not a loan in a conventional sense, but deferred taxation depending on your income) but the day to day balancing of the books. Convincing my daughter to find work to fill the gaps will be as much of a challenge as anything else.

Choose university in the following order.
Russell Group University
Post-1992 universities with polytechnic roots
Post-1992 universities that are not former polytechnics or central institutions

Some of the Universities are lemons so do a research (google on them) on them thoroughly especially those that managed to grab the headline news for all the wrong reasons. Otherwise you will paying for a degree that does not really worth much other than saying you have a degree.

Universities aren’t great places to work - bureaucratic, useless management and limited mobility especially if you’re an academic. Can’t believe I lasted a decade.

Stats can be manipulated, so don’t put too much trust in them - as an example I did some work on NSS, DLHE and entry quals that raised my employer by around 15 places in the ST and GUG guides. When I left and no one took over this work they went back down (muppets!)

Don’t be fooled by nice buildings or people offering you the moon on a stick - look instead at staff student ratios, contact hours and destinations upon graduating.

JP

I only took mine to one, at St Andrews. She didn’t want me traipsing round with her because she was worried I’d get bored and start arsing about to amuse myself, so I just dropped her off then spent the day watching the Alfred Dunhill Championship on the Old Course. So my experience of university open days is fairly positive.

Don’t be fooled by nice buildings or people offering you the moon on a stick – look instead at staff student ratios, contact hours and destinations upon graduating.

Just choose the Russell Group or the "redbrick" Universities ... that's how I advised my nephew and niece.

... so I just dropped her off then spent the day watching the Alfred Dunhill Championship on the Old Course. So my experience of university open days is fairly positive.

🤣 you must be embarrassing her ... you trying to look cool in front of others?

👍 Alfred Dunhill Championship ...

I don’t need to try

The Russell Group unis are losing their prestige since they were allowed to increase their student numbers, some have seriously dumbed-down in order to get bums on seats and the tuition fees to fund the new buildings and there are issues of overcrowding.
Oxbridge is intense but good on the CV, you need a work ethic as well as talent, otherwise I'd keep a very open mind - I think a lot of degrees which have links with business and internships could be more relevant going forward and some of them are in the ex-polys.
There is also likely to be a change in how unis are funded away from pure research towards knowledge creation and transfer, under the Knowledge Exchange Framework rubric, and that could benefit the ex-polys at the expense of the RG.

@fisherboy, you are right to say it is not debt in a conventional sense, but I don't quite buy the "graduate tax" argument either. The main reason being the interest rates on this debt/tax are running at 6percent, so over time if not paid off that debt/tax will get very big indeed. It's still true though (as my dad happily once said to me) that it is written off if I die.
Keep an eye on the Augar review and whether it's recommendations are implemented - I just think the 6percent rate of interest is completely unfair; these youngsters are being shafted.
But the whole system is unsustainable - think sub-prime - so it is likely it will all be written off at some point in the future.

but shone in it for the 3 before

I was enjoying the posters that talked about being #3... two years ago.

Open days - ask if they can relate to the keenos that we got to volunteer? Don't listen to the staff (we'll all claim we're the best at xyz, as only the keenos will put their hand up to staff it), but do check out the taster lectures. If they are crap, believe that there's nothing less boring on the cards.

I barely ever do open days. They don't trust me not to say society has dumped the cost of HE on to kids, loaded them up with credit, that we'll get them to spend on an education themed Disney-campus full of artisanal coffee shops, fast fibre equipped "live life like a rockstar" halls, and lecture captured courses that they only want to watch to meet the assessment.

Uni was transformational for me and my cohort. There were barely any contact hours, and we knew we were reading for our degree ("read Marx on Alienation for next week and be prepared to discuss it intelligently" - with the veiled threat of being humiliated if you didn't). We knew we were lucky to be there, and if we didn't get that, there was no NSS to give a platform to our naive voice.

I'm fortunate, I'm in a field flush with NIHR money, so teach less than 20hrs a year, not including research students etc. Uni ought to be a stretch, absolutely challenging, and full of people whose research informs their teaching. Unfortunately, there aren't enough hours to meet the admin heavy, contact and feedback intensive teaching style we're asked to provide by our NSS wielding undergrads, so they end up being taught by the staff who fail to bring in enough funding to support their research.

professors/tutors are living the dream, and some of them know it.

Still trying to determine how you were able to draw this conclusion. Unless you are simply referring to the fact that some academics get to continue pursuing a subject they have been passionate about since the beginning of their careers.

Beyond that, the pressure to sell the university, publish, fundraise, teach, supervise, grade, etc., can be immense. Not worse than that of other careers; just significant.

I'm an Open Day 'tutor' and I'm living a dream.

Shows the best side as you'd imagine, quite general views of some very specific areas, e.g. smart new kit that some students won't get to use. More of a feel for the place, but what do you expect in a day? I think the furthest that we went was 3 1/2 hours each way, and he didn't like the place or the course 🙁

Since when did parents start getting invited to these? Ones I went to, (early 90's) I either went on the train or borrowed my dad's Fiat Tipo. Don't remember any other parents traipsing around either.

Bloke at work had last week off for this reason. Sounds like his daughter wants to go and visit them all! 😳

professors/tutors are living the dream, and some of them know it.

That may be true in History, but I can assure you that it's not the case in all subjects. I'm on the other side (science lecturer) and it's hard but rewarding work (some of that reward coming from conducting and publishing research, going to conferences, being part of an international community etc, but a large part of it being from seeing the progress in students who leave after doing independent projects in their final year).

Having said that though, my dad still thinks I spend most of the summer on the beach after the end of term, rather than supervising research students and postdoctoral researchers, writing grant applications, writing papers, refereeing papers and grant applications, doing administrative work, revising teaching material, marking resits, promoting research, attending umpteen training sessions etc etc (oh, and helping out with open days) 🙂

professors/tutors are living the dream, and some of them know it.

Maybe 25 years ago. Most have been sacked and employed as contractors on zero hour contracts with zero job security and massive pressure to pass everyone as the students have coughed up £30k+ for their degree and expect a 2:1 or 1st just because they've paid so much (which I sort of agree with).

I went to Reading in the early 90s, lovely campus, but not a great Uni for Engineering (my old department has long since closed). Apparently the Uni is running a big deficit at the moment, and in trouble over some dubious management of charity funds it leant to itself to help cashflow (conflict of interest as the trustee of the charity and being up to their necks in debt).

Finance is my main concern. Not the “debt” (its not a loan in a conventional sense, but deferred taxation depending on your income) but the day to day balancing of the books. Convincing my daughter to find work to fill the gaps will be as much of a challenge as anything else.

With my three I spent some time on a budget spreadsheet with them, using actual costs where available (as said above uni accommodation varies hugely, and if on minimum loan often this wont even cover rent). Although we gave them some money, I made it clear that they needed £1k of savings before going (part time work whilst at school) and left them to decide if they could afford to live without working part time at Uni.

One word of caution however - keep an eye on both their grades and mental health - had to persuade one to stop working as they really didn't need to financially, and the employer was taking the mickey with hours and refusing leave etc.

Having spent the last 2 years doing the rounds of open days I would say enjoy it! I loved looking round a range of unis with my three - everything from Oxford / Cambridge / Durham to UCLAN and Sheffield Hallam. Great to see the differences. If you're like me you will have a clear favourite - don't be surpised if your kids choice is different!

Portsmouth Uni today.

Interesting how the campus is interwoven within the city center. This is definitely a campus for people who like the buzz of a city.

The history degree sounded fulfilling and engaging, definitely a contender with my daughter.

The university played on the employability of their graduates and how they have consistently risen up the Guardian tables over the last few years. (perhaps they are good at getting the right data results - as suggested above).

Accommodation ranged from the very poor to very good new builds.

Accommodation ranged from the very poor to very good new builds.

You can guarantee that the hands down best halls to be in will be the shite ones.

The wildest parties the most communal feel. Great fun.

Mr Vegas
Formerly of
13b
Birkbeck
Strathclyde

If you're going to campus universities outside the town centre, actually wait for and make the bus journey to and from the town centre. Bit of a nuisance in Reading IIRC. Also go to the accommodation office (if such a thing still exists) and check out the areas of Reading where students might end up living (unless you're banking on three years of catered halls).

I went to a some engineering ones a few years ago. They all made a big thing of the labs, but typically your son/daughter will only use these for a few hours a year, so focus on the teaching/contact time etc.

Living the dream here...
My advise is to ignore league tables. The current Guardian table for chemistry puts Lincoln second and Imperial College 42nd - this is of course bollocks.
chewkw's table is reasonable. I would add that there are ~4 top universities for each subject (excluding Oxford and Cambridge). There's no point putting more than one of these down.
Location is important, so is course demographics. A large percentage of overseas students on the course can dramatically change the dynamic. My niece dropped out after one year doing engineering at Imperial for this reason. There wasn't a cohesive group she could socialise with outside lectures. I always say that you have to be happy to get a good degree. She switched to Sheffield and was much happier.
I disagree about labs - access to facilities and instruments is crucial for STEM subjects. Lab capacity vs student numbers is a big thing also. Student will spend a lot of time in labs or on PC clusters.
Avoid trendy clickbait degree names - the hot subject this year might be redundant in ten years time. The core subject will usually offer options in the hot topics anyway.
Finally, at open days ask if the course is a 'recruiter' or a 'selector'. Recruiter courses may set high offers to attract good students, but would most likely still accept students if they drop grades on results day. Selectors won't.

My point about labs is that the tour gave too much time to labs that would be available for a few hours in the whole of a 4 year coarse. For example, the wind tunnels, my son has done one lab using this lab in a 4 year MSc degree. Same with the engine test lab. I agree, very important, but good access to your tutor is, I think more so.

Yes agreed, big ticket bits of kit that students have limited access to and research labs are not as important as teaching labs.
Personal tutors and student well-being services are also vital.

Since when did parents start getting invited to these? Ones I went to, (early 90’s) I either went on the train or borrowed my dad’s Fiat Tipo. Don’t remember any other parents traipsing around either.

This. I had interviews to attend as well, would have felt strange having my parents with me.

Don't be fooled by shiny new equipment and fancy names. You may even find the people selling the course are not all tutors.

As a tutor myself I'm just honest on open days. Yes we are great at certain things like most Uni's but not perfect.

At university level the course is only as good as the student. If they slacken off they will be warned by their tutors but not chased for the work like in school and FE. Tutors are often teaching across multiple courses too so have less time. Though a student who puts in the effort will always get time from me, regardless of their grades.

Just choose the Russell Group or the “redbrick” Universities … that’s how I advised my nephew and niece.

Advice like that is the only reason a lot of Russell group courses still run. It's not the quality of a lot of the teaching now. I work at a post-92 former poly and one area we smash the redbricks at is getting students placements and then jobs in the subject they're studying.
Also look at borrowing rates by russell group uni's, it might take 30 students tuition fees just to pay off the interest rate on the half-billion loan it's taken out.

Not having a go at you directly Chekw, just in the assumption that the university sector is still the same as it was 20 years ago. For record i'm one of the few members of my family not to go to a russell group uni, but i went to the best dept in britain for my subject area and did a placement year at a very high ranking uni in germany.

Those of you worried about eye-watering debt, have a read of this...

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-loans-tuition-fees-changes/

FWIW, I think my Mum came with me on a couple of visits in 1995...

Since when did parents start getting invited to these? Ones I went to, (early 90’s) I either went on the train or borrowed my dad’s Fiat Tipo. Don’t remember any other parents traipsing around either.

Since at least 15 years ago! Basically once grants were out, fees and parental contributions were in.

Do they have to go straight to uni?

I’m a huge fan of working year out our five years, gaining life experiences and making a more mature decision about what they want to do in part of life.

I think there's probably a balance to be had.

With hindsight I would have been best off doing a proper year in industry before uni, like the OP's offspring I was bright but lazy so could have done with a kick up the arse before it really mattered.

In reality I would have worked at the same place I worked every summer (which was industry related but not a career stepping stone) but would have learnt nothing and just been a year older than everyone else. I think if you went to uni in your mid 20's it would be a very different experience. Remember the slightly odd postgrad who tried to hang around with the freshers, that would end up being you. I'd imagine the potential for being a bit lonely and depressed then get's quite high. Half the fun of uni was being among thousands of other kids from all walks of life mostly going through the same experience.

Half the fun of uni was being among thousands of other kids from all walks of life mostly going through the same experience.

indeed, which is why i stumbled out into the daylight 3 years later with a 2:2, tinnitus and a powerful tolerance for booze.

by contrast MrsDoris went to uni at 30, had already got the partying out of her system, got a first with no trouble at all and currently has some work up in the Royal Academy.

It depends on your personality type obvs but I do kind of wish I'd waited a year or 2.

Since when did parents start getting invited to these? Ones I went to, (early 90’s) I either went on the train or borrowed my dad’s Fiat Tipo. Don’t remember any other parents traipsing around either.

"Borrowed my dad's Fiat Tipo"? Luxury! When I were' lad we hitched, then claimed train fares back from the local authority and spent it on pot. Kids today don't know they're born.

Anyway OP says that accommodation is all the same but while the uni-provided stuff may be much the same wherever you are I'd check what the situation is in the second and third years. It's a million years ago now but as a student I lived in an area where you could rent a nice house for peanuts whereas friends in big cities and in particular in the smoke had to spend a lot to rent in a dive that was miles away from the student action. I suspect student action as a concept dates me. Mind you when I was a student Sussex was aspirational whereas Chichester was probably a college of technology at best.

In our place the student guides were told exactly what to say and not to deviate from it (they got paid to do the tours). I know at least one got reported to the tour leader for going off script in an unfavourable way. Uni now care about money and statistics, not people. I was glad to get out, it was turning into a dirty trade from one I was once proud to be part of.

If you get chance investigate the student cafes and eating places. Try to get chatting discretely with any students or staff still hanging around who are not involved in the official tours. Do not repeat what they say to anyone or they might be formally criticised for going off script.

An important thing to look at is transport to the site - even staff are discouraged or refused parking these days so you are totally vulnerable to public transport and fares. That can be make or break due to costs and available routes over the years ahead. Check these out before committing and remember councils are finding it increasingly impossible to subsidise some routes due to government austerity project. This stuff can also affect where you are able to live.

A lot of new student accommodation has irresponsible (in my view) wooden cladding (cheap decoration/insulation). Think of Grenfall when you look for places to stay. Wood burns well, much student accommodation is now in clad blocks of flats on campus.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/04/cambridge-teaching-staff-to-protest-over-insecure-work

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/nov/16/part-time-lecturers-on-precarious-work-i-dont-make-enough-for-rent

Try to find out if the staff are worn out, desperate or likely to have to change jobs mid course too.

Another thing to think of is the long term viability of your course. In the last 2 years I have seen 3 different cafes with ads in the windows for waiting staff. All 3 said the prospective waiters had to

be in possession of a degree.

What job does your child plan to get with his/her degree? Think with care. The days of automatic good jobs and pay with any old degree are very long gone. £40,000 plus debt is a lot to owe to work in a cafe. Ask a few shop staff etc if they have been to Uni, its scary how many have good degrees.

Schools idealise Uni and sell that idea to the kids as it looks good on the schools stats to have X number of pupils go on to higher/further education. All education now is for the benefit of the school or Uni, very long time since the child has been of any value at all except as a means to a governments ends.

An important thing to look at is transport to the site – even staff are discouraged or refused parking these days

it's true - staff parking permits at the uni where i work are about £1.75 a week!!!

The interest payments on student loans are punitive:

https://www.gov.uk/repaying-your-student-loan/what-you-pay

I'd be surprised if you can't do better with remortgaging if you have that possibility, or cashing in savings as you are highly unlikely to earn as much interest as you'll pay on the debt.

If you can then showing a bit of vertical solidarity and simply paying is perhaps the best option. I'm convinced that student debt has a negative psycholigical impact and influences life choices. Anyhow, we're just paying whatever is required. A cheap year this year, junior is doing his Erasmus year at the Humbolt in Berlin.

Edit: this gives the opposite view for balance:

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/repay-post-2012-student-loan/

"staff parking permits at the uni where i work are about £1.75 a week!!!"

You were lucky, both in price and in being able to park at all.

Sorry about the formating on my prev post, I dont post on here much these days and have screwed it up.