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...for 2012 entry (based on applications to this point).
It is early days yet, but it looks like higher fees are putting students off. Unsurprising of course, but there are some figures to show this.
The biggest fall is in over 25s (down 20%) and over 40s (down 28%).
is this just compared to last year or to the overall trend? i'd have expected more than usual people to apply in the last couple of years, delaying gap years etc so they could get in before the fee increases?
I don't think 9% will make a difference to all but the bottom end unis?
the fees are higher, but the repayments are lower: £600/year lower.
the new fee/loan/repayment system needn't put anyone off.
Disatrous we need more unemeployed graduates and perhaps some more fully qualified chid care workers, hairdressers. motor mechanics and construction people with no jobs to go in to as well.
ye sthe mathcs is ace borrow more pay back less - obviously the givt did this to cost them money its not a cost sdsutting excercise [ is someoen else pays more] but w ehave done that debate to death
Less per year for longer is not less
I know 25% are better off but that means 75 % ar enot better off as a result
The Minister was clear on this cost
5lab - Compared to last year. The stats i've been sent don't include a comparison with 2009, which would be a better comparison for the reasons you've given.
The fall in applications is 12.1 per cent in England; 13 per cent in Northern Ireland; 11.8 per cent in Scotland; and 8.3 per cent in Wales.The data show that applications have dropped for all subject areas except “veterinary science, agriculture, and related”, which is up by 5 per cent, and “combined sciences”, up by 1 per cent.
Applications for computer sciences and technologies have dropped 10 per cent and 23 per cent respectively. Social studies and arts & design have fallen by around 22 and 27 per cent respectively.
The drop in applications for core science subjects is less extreme. The biological, physical and mathematical sciences are down 7 per cent, 1.6 per cent, and 2.6 per cent respectively.
Applications for courses for which have a 15 October* fell only 0.8 per cent.
*Oxbridge, medicine, veterinary subjects and dentistry
Total applications by Year
2008 60,532
2009 64,438
2010 71,883
2011 76,612
2012 69,724
[url] http://www.ucas.com/about_us/media_enquiries/media_releases/2011/20111024 [/url]
A cunning ploy to get people entering apprenticeships or undertake other vocational training (assuming that it is available)? When my lad grows up I would rather he got a proper training than some Mickey Mouse degree.
...Less per year for longer is not less...
yes, it is.
about £12,000 less*.
If someone's dumb enough to be put off due to the debt (given the earning minimum and low repayment amounts) they're too dumb to warrant a place at uni anyway.
OU reports a large rise in applications amongst younger people.
Advantages people see are;
It's cheaper
You can fit in around work due to few fixed time lectures.
Can stay at home whilst studying.
you can apply to go to uni up to a the day the terms starts, these figures are pretty meaningless, a lot more than 69k will go to uni
Are you saying that a 9% reduction is a good or bad thing? Isn't there too much emphasis on having a degree, any degre, and not enough emphasis on having the right qualification to satisfy the employers' needs?
Taking the figures in isolation tells you nothing.
IMO, fewer people at uni than presently is generally a good thing - there are lots of people graduating with degrees that do nothing for their prospects and they'd have been better off in vocational training.
The key bit of information is who's stopped applying. If it's poorer people (as seems likely) then that's a problem. IMO, the goal should be to reduce the overall number of applications but to make it much more equitable so that people aren't given a significant unfair advantage just by being better off.
amt27 - Member
you can apply to go to uni up to a the day the terms starts, these figures are pretty meaningless, a lot more than 69k will go to uni
deadline is 15th Jan, if you want a popular choice you'll struggle through clearing.
Why is this a bad thing. Is this percentage drop those that would have tossed it off previously not wanting a huge debt?
If it's poorer people (as seems likely) then that's a problem.
Again, not a question of wealth but the ability to see the long term advantages and a question of intelligence. If you're poor and stupid, it would have been a wasted investment anyway. 😛
[i]the ability to see the long term advantages[/i]
I do think that people from abackground where there is no 'history' of higher education have a 'cultural' bias away from it.
My wife was told both by her school and her parents that she should go to secretarial college and learn to type as that was the sort fo job that 'suited her'. This was more to do with her background than any assesment of ther ability - she's just become deputy head at a school as she ignored advice and did a degree.
People who are beign told 'it's not for you' by those around them are surely more likely to forgo university if all they can see is a mountain of debt and have no one close to them to use as a role model for the advantages they might gain by attending.
I agree with Clubber. Far too many people go to university but asking up to £9000 is stupid it will put poorer people off because of the fear of the debt.
Personally I have a business degree but my professional accountancy qualification is far more important to my job prospects and I could have got that three years earlier if I hadn't studied for a degree.
she's just become deputy head at a school as she ignored advice and did a degree.
And that's exactly the the type of person I was talking about. 😆
Yeah, ok, I guess that I meant poorer but capable people.
I do think that people from abackground where there is no 'history' of higher education have a 'cultural' bias away from it.
+1
IMO the additional costs that will be coming in will significantly deter people who might otherwise have gone against that cultural bias.
I think she's a minority though, don simon.
anMunro - Member
Total applications by Year
2008 60,532
2009 64,438
2010 71,883
2011 76,612
2012 69,724
Cheers. That doesn't look too bad, but the subjects facing the biggest falls is the worrying thing.
University entry has got too easy over the last few years with everyone coming out with 20 A*+ or whatever the heck they get these days. Havent many employers complained that the standard of degree entry students has also dropped over the years.
Higher costs hopefully means that only those who really think they can get the good jobs will even bother applying in the first place. So hopefully employers will only get good candidates.
However it may well leave a skills gap. Would you want to do a 7 year architecture degree which may well leave you with £100,000+ debt, which will take you years to pay off and leave you in real terms earning a lot less than piers who have managed to get in before fees came in...
If your a parent of a new born, you roughly need to save £50 per month per child to the day they are 18 if you want to get them through a 3 year uni course.
Agreed, but we suffer from an idea that the be all and end all is a university degree, when it is not. The Dutch quite successfully have a different approach valuing highly the vocational approach. Can we not simply accept that some people are not suited to university education and get on with things? And people dropping out of enlisting isn't necessarily a bad thing. Universities have become huge money making machines and I guess have less of a focus on education, but I digress.
Those that want a degree and can see the advantages will and are still applying which is why we're seeing such a small drop in applications.
[i]the vacational approach[/i]
never mind learning, let's have a holiday?
😉
valuing highly the vacational approach.
Bit like me. I love holidays.
Edit: Too easy! Not quick enough! If only I'd gone to university...
You really should wait until my 15 mins are up, otherwise it's not me who looks stoopid... 😀
Cheers. That doesn't look too bad, but the subjects facing the biggest falls is the worrying thing.
Social studies and arts & design have fallen by around 22 and 27 per cent respectively.
Doesn't worry me .. 🙂
Isn't there likely to be a demographic slump in the near future where there are just less kids wanting to do undergraduate courses? And how come there isn't a marketplace where different courses have different costs? I'm sure an engineering department costs more to run than an English deparment (but then probably generates some income form it's post grads)
Engineering departments still receives funding from government, the English dept doesn't.
Higher costs hopefully means that only those who really think they can get the good jobs will even bother applying in the first place. So hopefully employers will only get good candidates.
Thats a big hope and when we are hoping that an important government policy might, kind of hopefully be good I lack confidence that it will be.
[
A cunning ploy to get people entering apprenticeships or undertake other vocational training (assuming that it is available)? When my lad grows up I would rather he got a proper training than some Mickey Mouse degree.
oddly we pay up to 15 k for an apprenticeships training so they can go straight into employment trained so a large company can make money of them straight away ...thank god taxpayers still subsidise employers I say
TBH it depends in may areas there are no jobs once you qualify and it is just as pointless as going to Uni - if you do not have an employed apprenticeship chances are you will never be employed in that profession - its about 90-99% depending on exact subject choice. We all pay for that "education" as well
We had a massive drop in applicants to our instructor training course this year - almost all the enquiries we followed up stated that they were getting in uni while it was 'cheap' in 2011.
We already have an increase in enquiries for 2012 start 🙂
http://www.abernethy.org.uk/PROFESSIONAL_INSTRUCTOR_COURSE/
"Shocked"
Good
Now we need to cut the nonsensical subjects followed by promoting apprenticeships again.
Far too many skilled trades are now ignored in favour of useless degrees imo
Thats a big hope and when we are hoping that an important government policy might, kind of hopefully be good I lack confidence that it will be.
Sorry a_a, but I can't actually take anything you say seriously unless it has an accompanying video. 😉
😆
.When my lad grows up I would rather he got a proper training than some Mickey Mouse degree
Indeed, but how do you tell which is which?
had an apprentice 3yrs ago ( gas and plumbing) no setting the world alight but was getting there, only basic gcses etc left to go to uni.. did faff all first year ( racked up 5k overdraft and that whilst working shifts at Maccy Dees) left at end of second year with 10k overdraft and full time telesales job, had half a dozen similar jobs since come back asking for his old role..
university/ further education should be for those who are capable of making it make a difference to thier career prospects not as a way of hoovering up any kid who a, cant find a job b, has a job but has thier head turned by dreams of 'sports journalism'
and whats wrong with paying for an education i have to pay for my CPD and re training and exams why should nt everyone else? ( approx. 1 -1.5k PA every year for me)
If your a parent of a new born, you roughly need to save £50 per month per child to the day they are 18 if you want to get them through a 3 year uni course.
No, you do what evryone else does and let them take the loan when they get to 18.
I only knew one person at uni who had it paid for by wholy by family, and that was by an inherited trust fund.
I was better off under the 'old' system, smalled debt and relaistic cance of paying it off well before its written off.
My brother (might) have been better off under the new system as he's picked an (on average) lower earning career, so would have benifited from lower repayments.
I only knew one person at uni who had it paid for by wholy by family, and that was by an inherited trust fund.
really? there were at least 3 people on my course (of 25) and a few more rounds halls. brighton uni - so not famed for its rich kids.
When my lad grows up I would rather he got a proper training than some Mickey Mouse degree
There's a lot of nostalgia for 'real jobs'(tm). Does anyone with this nostalgia actualy work on the shop floor of a factory/down a coal mine/etc doing the'se jobs we lament loseing to be replaced by banking and call centers?
really? there were at least 3 people on my course (of 25) and a few more rounds halls. brighton uni - so not famed for its rich kids.
On my course there were none from the UK, and one guy who'd lived here most his life but didn't have a UK passport but did have rich parents.
Not exactly a reprisentattive sample, but unless your couse was only 3 people then it's still a small proportion.
the thing I really disagree with is the apparent plan to penalise people for paying off their loans early. I paid off my loan early cos I got a decent job. I don't see how being out of debt is something an individual should be encouraged not to do
5lab - Member
the thing I really disagree with is the apparent plan to penalise people for paying off their loans early. I paid off my loan early cos I got a decent job. I don't see how being out of debt is something an individual should be encouraged not to do
I guess it's because it makes higher education cheaper for rich people. Even at £9k a year, university is still cheaper than many private schools.
Harry_the_Spider - Member
A cunning ploy to get people entering apprenticeships or undertake other vocational training (assuming that it is available)? When my lad grows up I would rather he got a proper training than some Mickey Mouse degree.
What's a mickey mouse degree?
We've got slightly lower applications but we're anticipating offering more places due to the changes in funding.
Our rest-of-uk interest is bizarrely up- apparently all the talk in England of tuition fees for scottish universities has had the effect of having english students go "Wow, I didn't know they had universities in Scotland", whereas our highest-allowable charging has made us more desirable since obviously, we must be good 😉
We'll fill all our SAAS-funded places with ease again and end up turning away good students (Alex Salmond- "No tuition fees for scottish students on my watch. But I will happilly cut places because nobody notices that").
I know a few tradesman! 🙄There's a lot of nostalgia for 'real jobs'
Even in my chosen profession earning well above the national average I would probably have been better off going down the same route as them.
Let's face it though, we have a whole load of graduates who have been encouraged to go to Uni who are now filling basic admin jobs. A lot of them will fill similar roles throughout their careers, drafting poorly worded e-mails, with horrendous spelling and struggling with basic maths.
For a lot of people these days Uni is a waste of time and money.
still they keep me in work TSY so lets not discourage it just yet
Personally if my kids wer enot doing a vocational degree iw ould discourage them from University which is ashame for them if not the country.
What amsess me is how many people come out with poor degrees we have people with a d and and an E at a level going on to get a third and that debt WHY?
What amsess me is how many people come out with poor degrees we have people with a d and and an E at a level going on to get a third and that debt WHY?
Ummm... I think that's my point just worded a different way. 😆
(not the spelling content btw 😉 )
What amsess me is how many people come out with poor degrees we have people with a d and and an E at a level going on to get a third and that debt WHY?
here's my take on it:
cos its fun to avoid the real big bad world of grown-up work and bills junky, debt isnt the biggest fear when you're 17 and kids are constantly being told the world is a horrible shit place to grow up into. i can understand them wanting to mess around at uni for 3-4 years, then travel a bit, then return to live with their parents again whilst they doss about in a state of unemployment or piss easy jobs for a few years whilst deciding what to do with their life and almost pointless 3rd class degree in media. when everyone else is doing it, well why be the exeption to the rule... the goverment will have to take care of people if everyones in the same situation yeah? so why bother working hard, not getting into debt, living within your means and other such sensible ways of living!
What's a mickey mouse degree?
We had a lad (who didn't last through probation) at our place recently. B.Eng Mech Eng and he didn't have a clue. How the hell he got it we have no idea. Hard degrees for the smartest, not the richest or those that want to stay on in eductaion for another 3 years in a bid to avoid reality.
mrsconsequence got told to get pregnant by the lady working at the jobcentre when she was 17 and having problems at home so she could get a house and benefits.
luckily for me she went to uni, got 1% off a first class degree in psychology, worked as a specialist Independent Domestic Violence Advisor for high risk cases with the police and now works for the probations service in a prison as a programme facilitator for the perpetrators of domestic violence.
my point (apart from being proud of her)... the goverments and the generation above us have created a country that hands out money to people who boast about doing nothing for that money, they feel they deserve it and when government workers are also advising people to go down that route... we cant expect things to get much better. That apathy towards responsibility spreads to people who are perfectly able to study hard and achieve something/make a difference in life.
BUT there are people out there who ignore the advice from benefit receiving friends, job centre staff and in many cases (i imagine) their parents and work hard and try to make sensible decisions that hopefully make the world a slightly better place for people who aren't so fortunate.
i think the future will become more and more polarised... the have and have-nots, the workers and and deliberate benefit culture, the healthy and the not. mleh! what a happy thought 😥
There seems to be a dominant view that going to uni is about getting a job afterwards. It is much, much more than that.
Ummm... I think that's my point just worded a different way.(not the spelling content btw )
i think you will find, if you check, I made a more coherent point by using more incoherent language 😉
Phil that was a touching comment on your missus and one of the first that did not mention boobies or cats { PLEASE PHIL NOOOOOOOOOO] ...is everything ok do you need to talk to someone
Fair points from you all [ including HtS] TBH
EDIT:
There seems to be a dominant view that going to uni is about getting a job afterwards. It is much, much more than that.
if you want to lend me 40 k fo rthe three years ages between 18 and 21 I am opretty sur ei could have learnt a lot to.
We all know it is but the issue is why get saddled with that level of debt for the "experience".
You are correct it is shame we talk about it in those terms
Unfortunately IMHO uni should be ameritocracy and for the very brightest in society. Once we open it up as an egalitarian meausre it looses its woth, I would imagine if you take out vocational jobs [ architect, dr, vet etc] you will find very little evidence of a premium for degrees these days.
CaptJohn - under the current system of fees, sadly, it is exactly about that.
Infact, if individuals weren't to pay for their education... IMO it should still be about the total benefit to society gained from people studying.
sorry junky, i try not to take things too seriously, hence the boobies and cats 🙂
for the record i am incredibly proud of mrsconsequence, she's now at the point of identifying her own triumphs and being proud of herself... which just makes me even prouder. i feel bad using the word 'proud' as it suggests her success is somehow down to me, its not. She's one of the most driven, honest and beautiful people in my life.
Aside from from assuming a degree is about a job afterwards, what narks me is the CBI's mantra that graduates aren't skilled or experienced enough when they finished. Well, you know what, maybe contribute towards degrees, or encourage your members to make placements available. We've got 50 third years who have opted to do a module which includes working in a job. Public sector organisations are jumping at the chance to get 10 days free labour of some quite bright students. Businesses, however, run a mile. It is little wonder graduates have little work experience when businesses aren't prepared to give them any.
maybe contribute towards degrees
Pretty sure that some top Accountancy firms are doing this now.
The armed forces have done it for years, right?
Is there not an argument to say that Graduate Schemes offered in the private (and lesser extent Public) sector are doing the sorting of quality role that University used to do itself 20-30 years ago?
10 or so years ago I studied the economic worth of a degree... If you go to study Geography with the current fee structure... good luck.
There seems to be a dominant view that going to uni is about getting a job afterwards. It is much, much more than that.
As someone who has interviewed to employ graduates but has struggled because they are not up to scratch I couldn't care less if they have had an "experience". If they can't do the physics they shouldn't be awarded an honours degree in Engineering. Positions now filled by apprentices who have been trained up internally and to HNC level on day release BTW.
Harry_the_Spider - Member
As someone who has interviewed to employ graduates but has struggled because they are not up to scratch I couldn't care less if they have had an "experience". If they can't do the physics they shouldn't be awarded an honours degree in Engineering. Positions now filled be apprentices who have been trained up internally and to HNC level on day release BTW.
I'm not suggesting going to uni should be about the student experience, it should be about the learning you do while there (not how often you go and get trashed).
...10 or so years ago I studied the economic worth of a degree... If you go to study Geography with the current fee structure... good luck...
why the need for luck?
i assume you mean that their job prospects are a little gloomy (which may or may not be the case), but if they end up working in a call centre on £16k, their repayments will be zero.
they'll have had 3 years of education and character development, and it won't cost them a penny.
It'll have cost them £48k in lost earnings at the very least 😉
Assuming they're not completely stupid they might rise to the position of team leader and start earning just over the national average... then have to start paying back.
I haven't really looked at the new fee structure... it's irrelevant to me. All I know is it's not as good a deal as when I went.
Wonder how this will play out with more students going for 'premium' degrees like science and engineering in order to get better paid jobs. Students already cost far more to teach than the government is willing to pay, so this could either make these courses the preserve of the privately educated (entrance exams for STEM are now common at the top unis) or we will see an explosion of cash cow foreign students subsidising the EU/home students.
If you are prepared to look there are other options that don't just involve learning "a trade". As someone mentioned above I'm sure the big 4 (accountants) are now taking on A level student. You train while doing the job and become certified (?) in a fe years and then can go on to become chartered later. I'm certain EandY are taking on A level student.
We have around 10 students in the lab. They work 4 days and study one and get a BSC of 5 or 6 years. They get paid a livable wage (it's not great when you start but comparable to what I was living off as a student). Fees are paid and you get a guaranteed job at the end.
I know of other companies that do similar.
Many of the well known graduate employers take on graduates whos degree bares no resemblence to the job they are being asked to do. So in some cases they are looking at skipping the "getting a degree just to prove you can" stage and taking people on earlier and training them up.
One big disadvantage of lower numbers studying is that research and technology is something we do really well at. If we have less people going to uni this will have knock on effects.
Some people go to uni to learn
FunkyDunc - Memberhowever it may well leave a skills gap. Would you want to do a 7 year architecture degree which may well leave you with £100,000+ debt, which will take you years to pay off and leave you in real terms earning a lot less than piers who have managed to get in before fees came in...
Posted 7 hours ago # Report-Post
7 years training to use a pencil,and some paper, when all it means is your drawn line or squiggle has to be interperated by trained craftsmen who actually build what you have drawn, and probably have to re draw your drawings and check all the sizes frequently.
A relevant piece in the Telegraph (of all places)
Schools in Germany and UK have shocking behavioural problems.
Universities teach rebellion and left wing political attitudes.
Got to love the Telegraph comments section, you can almost hear the Harrumphing 🙂
uni should be ameritocracy and for the very brightest in society
well thats being ****ed up royally already