[Closed] Unions , is their time coming to an end.

The tories will make us stronger we have people joining every week 😕

Its not just about jobs.

the time of unions came to a end when the witch thatcher and her yankee henchman destroyed the miners.

take away the a mans right to fight for a better standard of living and you take away a bit of the man.

im not joining in this one as you can telegraph all the posts 🙂

but

I found out today that neither the RMT nor the NUT are affiliated to the Labour Party. Surprised by that.

As far as the NHS is concerned, I'm with the Unions.

The ConDem reforms have the potential to seriously disrupt acute care services. Spouting platitudes about competition (largely code for handing stuff over to Serco [i]et al[/i]) doesn't form the basis of a coherent health policy.

As for being out of a job.... perhaps nurses should simply copy the bankers - and threaten to leave.

Besides, who is going to staff all these multiple & competing entities? ❓

Seems as if the unions are just affraid of loosing members and are just hyping things up, to keep themselves in the media

Reckon there will be a 'second coming' of Unions, meself... Good to see some people waking up from apathy.

The tories have basically killed the unions with T***ch** (swear filter avoidance gone mad?) effectively removing the right to strike, although the union is more than this, if you remove one of the main weapons you remove their power and their main source of publicity.

did i hear the govt were going to bring in emergency legislation to ban/make this action illegal..

we really can't be far from scenes like Egypt/France/Greece,any other place that has had civil disruption due to cuts....

But if people are loosing their jobs, paying to be in a union is a pointless waste of money, so the union looses that money, and the menber and becomes less potent.

Then we have the train drivers union strikeing on the first day of the rugby in south wales, now what is that going to achieve for them, absolutely no public sympathy at all.

When there is no more money what are they striking for? 😆

they are not at all bothered about their members loosing their jobs, having their pensions rights changed, having their salaries frzxen whilst inflation rises

But if people are loosing their jobs, paying to be in a union is a pointless waste of money, so the union looses that money, and the menber and becomes less potent.

It is equally pointless to strike and cripple a company into bankruptcy. To take a cliché, 80% of something is better than 100% of nothing.
Plus unions do alot of other work.

But if people are loosing their jobs, paying to be in a union is a pointless waste of money, so the union looses that money, and the menber and becomes less potent.

Public sector staff are always the easy target for a govenment looking to save jobs and, therefore, money. It used to be that a lot of jobs could be 'lost' numerically by transferring them to a contractor with, in effect, the same staff still doing the same job. The headline figures showed a reduction of government staff and so everyone was happy. Now real cuts seem to be on the agenda, so how can anyone not expect people to protest, and if the only way they can do that is by withdrawing their labour who can blame them? Don't forget that a strike costs people money: they do not do it for fun. Also, there is no right to strike in this country.

Junkyard the unions job is to protect jobs,and to keep themselves in jobs, the governmnets job is to save money we dont have,so cutting budgets is the only way, or reducing pay scales, and working harder.

projet....................are you serious.........i hope not.

Now real cuts seem to be on the agenda, so how can anyone not expect people to protest, and if the only way they can do that is by withdrawing their labour who can blame them?

We could have a solution here! If they stay out on strike for *just* long enough, then not having to pay their wages while on strike will mean the govt save enough money that nobody has to be laid off 8)

Ton of course i was joking on the second bit above, but a lot of councils and companies are asking/teling the staff to take pay cuts and they are.

A lot of LA jobs have been created as non jobs, to soak up unemployment and create empires for the management, these are the jobs that should go,everyone of has abn idea of non jobs and there should be a list made with them at the top of if .

You missed raising taxes and get non doms to pay their way and taking bankers bonuses whilst expousing yout TINA* argument. It is a choice as to how to balance the books and how quickly. Perhaps we could have raised income tax for the wealthy rather than VAT for us all for example?
*There
Is
No
Alternative
Is the government not interested in keeping their own job? It is all that motivates them isnt it get re-elected do you have the same view of them?
Edit: front line jobs will be hit delivery staff, raod mender, refuse collectors . Did you get your list of non jobs from the Daily mail 😉

Union membership has been declining for years.

The biggest mistake people are making in this debate IMO is to think public sector have it bad and private doesn't. Private sector's been hard for the last few years, job security is low and pensions are hard to come by and it's hardly an easy life now.

TBH the whole crash and recession has had such a fundamental an impact on our confidence in the system and the future that it's pretty irrelevant who your employer is... it's hard for everyone.

And i do think the unions need to think sensibly about where their support will come from if they play the 'we're being victimised, everyone else is ok card' because I doubt very few amongst the general public feel ok enough to have sympathy with it

TBH the whole crash and recession has had such a fundamental an impact on our confidence in the system and the future that it's pretty irrelevant who your employer is... it's hard for everyone.
And i do think the unions need to think sensibly about where their support will come from if they play the 'we're being victimised, everyone else is ok card' because I doubt very few amongst the general public feel ok enough to have sympathy with it

Junky - how about the Irish approach?

Rather than laying people off, an across the board paycut - would you prefer that perhaps?

A year and a bit ago, a former employer of mine where I still have a great many friends, turned round to the staff and gave them a choice - either everyone gives up their overtime payments until further notice, or we make redundancies - unsurprisingly enough the unanimous reaction was to lose the overtime, equivalent to a 15% pay cut for nearly all.

So, instead of whinging, come up with an alternative - either save money, or lose staff - that is exactly the choice that has been tackled in the private sector!

Junkyard all councils have a statutory duty under law to empty bins and keep roads in a good condition, eg the highways act,

The main reason there is higher union membership in the public sector is because the huge private sector firms which once dominated the economy have gone (e.g. In manufacturing) as jobs are offshored, the number of SMEs has grown and labour markets have become more flexible to suits the need of business - otherwise known as the shift from Fordism to post-Fordism.

What I don't understand is why people accept the 'race to the bottom' approach to so-called reforms to pensions, pay, employment conditions. Why make public sector pensions more like the relatively worse ones many in the private sector have to accept? Why not hold up final salary, well protected pensions as the aim for all workers no matter who employs them?

I'm a member of a union and think they are vital for all workers. But i also think a more modern approach needs to be taken by both unions and employers. I also think unions don't do themselves any favours for allowing people not doing good jobs to continue in their employment with little hope of the sack or even official warnings.

don simon - Member

"It is equally pointless to strike and cripple a company into bankruptcy. To take a cliché, 80% of something is better than 100% of nothing."

But as a way of getting your demands listened to, it's hard to beat being able to threaten striking and crippling a company into bankruptcy. After all for the management giving in to union demands is better than losing everything. But for some reason this argument doesn't seem as popular.

brooess - Member

"And i do think the unions need to think sensibly about where their support will come from if they play the 'we're being victimised, everyone else is ok card' because I doubt very few amongst the general public feel ok enough to have sympathy with it"

You're missing the point there- this is not a "We're being victimised, everyone else is OK" situation- this is an "everyone is being shafted" situation. We're not talking about one union striking for one group of workers.

true but what has that got to do with this debate thought you wanted to discuss unions nt statutory duties of LA's?
Zulu - i run script blocker for your posts 😆
God bless programmers

ah, boo hoo Junky -

Come on - why not be realistic

A friend of mine is a school governor. When asked if cuts of 10% had to be made whether this could be achieved by sacking one of the ten teachers or cutting all salaries by 10%.

I found his response amazing. He claimed that even suggesting to staff that they might reduce their salaries was a non-starter. It just wouldn't even be contemplated.

Of course the nine remaining teachers would all complain later and write letters to the Guardian about evil Tory cuts but they wouldn't voluntarily reduce their standard of living to save a colleague's job.

The eternal cry of the Unionised workforce! "I'm alright Jack"

Just used another browser to see your reply predictable faux upset [didnt read sthat tbh] but I bet you still post stuff up to me even though you know i wont be reading ...let your actions speak for your feelings sweetheart 😉

Jesus, have you [b]still[/b] got your lip out over the name issue [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/cuts-union-knee-jerk-response-or-last-line-of-defence-against-the-torries/page/5#post-1807611 ]Junky?[/url]

I mean, come on, move on darling - you're really [b]still[/b] stewing over that?

CaptJon sums up my views far more eloquently than I could have.

Terribly nice of you old boy.

So, instead of whinging, come up with an alternative - either save money, or lose staff - that is exactly the choice that has been tackled in the private sector!

So in the context that the private sector is having to compete with businesses from abroad and it's associated cheaper labour, and as a result is shedding jobs or employees taking pay cuts, how the hell is it going to create more jobs to compensate for all the public sector job losses? Take into account that a large portion of public sector money which is spent in the private sector is disappearing too.

Now if you can answer that one Z11 you'll be doing better than Osborne and co. Oh, and meanwhile in the US the quarterly figures show a 3.2% increase in it's economy.

This Government has done a couple of good things. It's kicked off the union movement again and managed to politicize the Students of middle class families.

I only ever joined a union under protest but never paid the political levy to the labour party

Besides, who is going to staff all these multiple & competing entities

cheaper immigrant labour?

A friend of mine is a school governor. When asked if cuts of 10% had to be made whether this could be achieved by sacking one of the ten teachers or cutting all salaries by 10%.

Teachers pay can be quite poor an nqt earns little when you think of the responsibility they have

If I employed anyone who went on strike I would just make their job redundant and legally create another position that they were unable to do

Zulu-Eleven - Member

"A friend of mine is a school governor. When asked if cuts of 10% had to be made whether this could be achieved by sacking one of the ten teachers or cutting all salaries by 10%."

I'd say "Are you out of your ****ing minds? Schools aren't that well funded anyway and teachers don't get paid enough considering the jobs they do. If there's money for fannying around with nuclear submarines there's money for schools. You can't just offer 2 terrible choices and act surprised when people don't want to choose either. Cut something else. Offer the right choices in the first place."

But I suppose TINA eh.

If I employed anyone who went on strike I would just make their job redundant and legally create another position that they were unable to do

Brilliant. Why didn't anyone else think of that? Oh, that's right, Industrial tribunals costs the employers money.

You can't just offer 2 terrible choices and act surprised when people don't want to choose either.

He's deflecting attention away from the fact that it's the Tories that are forcing these choices on people.

Er, remind me what's been happening to employees in the private sector, which actually pays for all this, over the last couple of years.

I'm sorry pays for all what? You pay my taxes, no. Ah you pay my wages? No. You pay my union fees? No. So I'm sorry what us it you pay for? Ah must be my pension? No not that either.

Today the unions have anounced a day of action in March

They announced it last year.

God there are some reactionary numpties on this site............when the system craps on us all, blame those challenging the system, not the system itself. Yeah, right. Back to your caves boys.

Union Leaders? Politicians? Is there a difference??

I can understand the history of and need for unions; I can also understand the history of and need for government.

What strikes me [see what I did there 😉 ] is that a lot of people start off with good intentions and then get embroiled in the power, greed, and corruption of being a fat-cat union leader or politician. Union Leaders are politicians that aren't MPs! Party politics prevail which is why unions raise their heads above the media parapet when we have a right-wing government and work behind the scenes of a left-wing government. We currently have a right-wing government ergo the union leaders are raising the ante. The current swingeing range of cutbacks are just a sideshow 😕

Union memberships will rise would be my guess

Judging by the number of folk over the last couple of years on here who have been asking for employment advice a lot more of you could do with being in a union.

Unionised workplace no matter what the sector have better terms and conditions.

Its not all about strikes you know.

Well, sadly Br0one and Bliar lulled people into a false sense of security when we created 00000's of Jobs in the public sector that were meaningless. They have to go.

The worrying thing about the Con-Dem approach is the triple whammy of: Job cuts, pay freezes AND Tax hikes. It's pricing people out into oblivion.

Not saying the latter wouldn't have occurred if Br0one had stayed in.

Sadly, the UK lost its manufacturing clout as a result of unionised greed and poor labour practices; as a result we're a service nation in a global recession where nations don't have the money to outsource their services.

We're f00ked!

[i]I'm sorry pays for all what? You pay my taxes, no. Ah you pay my wages? No. You pay my union fees? No. So I'm sorry what us it you pay for? Ah must be my pension? No not that either.
[/i]

LOL I've lost count how many times i've said that to people. 😀

As long as we get to see Bob Crow's head on a spike outside the Tower, I really don't mind. 😉

Unionised workplace no matter what the sector have better terms and conditions.

Gosh - I didn't realise that the heads of the banking industry were union members

I could be wrong, and it's not a position I wholeheartedly agree with, but I think ps44's point is that the private sector create wealth that the govt tax, and govt subsequently spend that tax on the public sector. It's an argument that the private sector are the 'engine room' of the economy, and the first to feel the pinch and (unlike the public sector) relatively unprotected from the forces of economic downturn. The corollary of this is that public sector unions arguably see their job as (or are seen as doing the job of) lobbying the govt to keep their protections in place. Even when the wealth / tax receipts clearly aren't there to pay for their demands. As a result of such perceptions, many private sector workers and media commentators see unionised public sector workforces' complaints as disconnected from reality. Selfish even. I would say that the unions have a significant challenge on their hands to address such perceptions, going by the coverage they get in the press. Bob Crow would seen to be the epitome of this, in that he has clearly been successful in achieving salary gains for his members. At what PR cost though, for his Union, his members, the sector and the Union movement as whole?

I read this thread as "are unicorns disappearing" and then thought "They're extinct aren't they?"

Having worked for unionised and no unionised companies in the oil and gas industry I'd have to say I prefererd having a union.

To a certain extent the fact that companies are getting better at looking after the health and safety, equal opportunities etc. of their workers (ie following legislation) reduces the need for this kind of representation somewhat.

Rather than laying people off, an across the board paycut - would you prefer that perhaps?

already happening in the NHS. No April cost of living pay rise for next 3 years = pay cut, non? They are already talkng about giving NHS employees the option of one or other form of freezes on their pay increments too.

Unions should be made illegal.

I hope their (our) times not coming to an end, or that would be me out of work.

Speaking as a fulltime union official, its not at all about striking. It's about defending jobs, public services, communities, your childrens futures, pensions, and thats just for starters. Fact is that the country is facing the most savage attack from its own government since the 'years of the witch'.
If you want to see what happens when Tory economic and social policy is applied have a day out in Redcar, or Ravenscraig or any other town or community that had its heart ripped out in the eighties.
I could go on all day (and do most days , as that's what I get paid for).
A lot of people on here have already started raising concern over the privatisation of forestry land. Maybe we all need to look a bit further and see what other 'wonderful' ideas Mr Cameron has to sell off, I would say the family silver, but the witch did that with coal and steel etc.
Admittedly not everyone will be affected badly by te cuts, I suppose the toffs will benefit and a few 'I'm alright Jack f##k you' types with little or no moral conscience may profit off the backs of the rest of us. But for the majority you will be affected in a negative way. It's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

March the 26th London - I'll see you there.

socialism and peace !

Unions should be made illegal.

Why? A little bit of justification for your ludicrous statement might help somewhat...

I read this thread as "are unicorns disappearing" and then thought "They're extinct aren't they?"

No.

already happening in the NHS. No April cost of living pay rise for next 3 years = pay cut, non? They are already talk about giving NHS employees the option of one or other form of freezes on their pay increments too.

Yup pay freeze for at least 3 years and yes increments might be next, I get my last increment next month anyway though. Pay freeze is kind of fair enough doing our thing, increment freeze is give little incentive for promotion though.

LOL I've lost count how many times i've said that to people.

It's just such utter rubbish to say "I pay your wages!" anyone who pays tax and NI pays towards NHS pay, including those employed by the biggest employer the NHS.

Good luck with a no Unions future. The race to the bottom would kick off in earnest then and will affect everyone. The lowest common denominator approach is why everyone wants to move here from Uzbekikuristan or wherever.
Civil disturbance is likely to start in earnest if the government goes too far and at some point the police will not follow political orders like they did in the recent student protests..

I bloody wish they were coming to an end. Bunch of lefty whinging cocks who would rather see a company go out of business than actually get off their collective fat arses and do something about it. Upon closure of many a manufacturing company, the last thing heard has been "it's managements fault..."
knobbers.
Yes I run a manufaturing comapny.

So with a lot of councils and other places loosing jobs or closing down, just where are all these new union joining members going to come from.

Oh and a few workplaces have said they will strike, in defence of anounced redundancies, sadly that may be the final straw for the company to close or go bust.

A survey by the Taxpayers’ Alliance found that Birmingham employed:

* Nine European officers at a cost of £246,523
* Twenty-eight diversity officers at a cost of £1,916,657
* Two climate change officers at a cost of £97,914

The total cost to the city was £2,261,094.

A survey by the Taxpayers’ Alliance found that Birmingham employed:

* Nine European officers at a cost of £246,523
* Twenty-eight diversity officers at a cost of £1,916,657
* Two climate change officers at a cost of £97,914

The total cost to the city was £2,261,094.

Sounds reasonable value to me, just need a few more people with a grasp of climate change and its potential effects too. Birmingham has a substantial ethnic minority does it not? I presume quite a few pay council tax, surely it doesn't hurt for a council to understand where their culture's coming from? Likewise, as Brum is the UK's 2nd city, knowing a little about the wider economy in which it sits probably doesn't hurt either.

The total cost to the city was £2,261,094.

Which is more than covered by the £23 million Birmingham City Council gets every year in EU funding as a result of their lobbying.

Birmingham City Council does not employ any diversity officers. It does however have to ensure that it complies with government legislation concerning non-discrimination, equal access to services, etc.

[b][i]Ill-informed tabloid fuelled rants, is their time coming to an end ?[/i][/b]

As an aside, I work for E.On in the IT department. We are all being outsourced to HP (sort-of EDS). When we found out that outsourcing was going to happen there was a massive sudden uptake in union membership (me included) as people were/are scared to death they are going to lose their jobs and think that perhaps being in a union will help a bit, if only for redundancy terms.

And, having been a part of an enormous company (private) I can assure everyone that the old rhetoric that 'businesses are lean and mean while government is bloated and heavy' is just not true. The sheer amount of waste I see happening around me is phenomenal!

Unions and managers, united in destroying business prospects since a long time ago........

Do the unions have an official line on how they would tackle paying back the mountain of debt that Tony and Gordon's NuLabour experiment left us all with?

Genuine question.

As an aside, I work for E.On in the IT department. We are all being outsourced to HP (sort-of EDS).

Eds: good at playing golf with company directors, good at writing very expensive contracts. Less good reputation for actually writing code and doing sensible requirements / user interface design etc., or so I hear.

Oh and don't get me started on the joys of out sourcing coding work to India - what a complete waste of time and money that was.

enfit - there is a well known answer from the left. Fair tax, go after tax avoiders seriously, tax non doms. Stimulate the economy and growth will do it over time.

Thing is companies such as news international and tesco pay next to no tax. if they paid their fair share then the issues would be far less

This governments approach will not pay back the debt as they send us into recession again and increase spending on benefits and decrese tax take due to contraction of the economy

Anyone? 😮

TJ, as usual you walked straight into that one and took the bait.

The clue was in the fact that enfht was asking the question.

And by adding "genuine question", enfht simply reinforced it for me that he wasn't asking a genuine question.

Mind you, you did give a fairly crap answer imo.

Fair enough ernie - a little heard of thinking today after last nights night shift.

Do the unions have an official line on how they would tackle paying back the mountain of debt that Tony and Gordon's NuLabour experiment left us all with?

Genuine question.

Gosh - I didn't realise that the heads of the banking industry were union members

They do belong to organisations that promote and protect their interests, so like a union, but far worse for us.

We're f00ked!

No we're not, we never got anywhere near to the level of problems of Ireland/Greece.

Not saying the latter wouldn't have occurred if Br0one had stayed in.

There would have been cuts, but probably not to the level of what the current Government are trying to do, too fast, too deep.

Unionised workplace no matter what the sector have better terms and conditions.

errr, no.

collected bargaining staff (unionised) got just as a rubbish deal as the non-collectively bargained staff when UNISON etc let the pension scheme get dumped at my place. (They [b] UNISON etc recomended acceptance of the proposed changes[/b])

Listen to their campaign to save public sector pensions which get funded out of my direct and in-direct taxes (by salaries and direct contributions or "in year funding") no thank you. I'll [b]recommend they accept the proposed changes[/b]. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander

project - Member

"A survey by the Taxpayers’ Alliance"

Oh come [i]on[/i], you can't actually be using the Taxpayer's Alliance as a source can you? Everyone knows they're dingbats.

you can't actually be using the Taxpayer's Alliance as a source can you?

Yup, a bunch of self-appointed individuals with non-jobs, who claim to speak on behalf of all taxpayers, included me, despite the fact that no one elected them.

Of course if they really believed the things they accuse Birmingham City Council of, then they could stand for election themselves. I guess the thing only that stops them is the knowledge that no one would vote for them.

BTW, despite calling themselves the Taxpayers Alliance, the Taxpayers Alliance avoid paying tax by claiming they are a "charity" ....... a slight stretching of the meaning of the word "charity" I reckon.

I doubt that Unions are going to cease to exist entirely, but I suspect that unions will become far less powerful within the public sector.

The simple fact is that public sector workers are generally reasonably paid, enjoy decent T&Cs and decent pensions. Some parts of the public sector are either overstaffed or straight out slack. Near enough everyone in the private sector knows someone working in the public sector, and they know all of the above. And most people can see that whilst the private sector has had a massive correction, the public sector correction has been delayed until after the general election.

Add all that together, and the result is that a sizeable proportion of voters will be about as supportive of union action as they would be of free botulism in school dinners.

Strangely today in Liverpool where 1500 jobs are going, with sefton and wirral as neighbours they had a demonstration against the cuts and only 500 turned up,according to the local news, so much for union power mobilising the workers to protest.

TandemJeremy - Member
enfit - there is a well known answer from the left. Fair tax, go after tax avoiders seriously, tax non doms. Stimulate the economy and growth will do it over time.

Thing is companies such as news international and tesco pay next to no tax. if they paid their fair share then the issues would be far less

Just for the record TJ in 2010 Tesco paid £840m in tax on profits of £3,176m, hardly "next to no tax". Sure, they get away with few dodgy off-shore tricks, but not on the scale you suggest.

The Unions are in self harm.

🙄

I wonder how much of the tax "dodged" by Tesco is just them paying their taxes where they made their profits. They certainly didn't take £3B+ in profits just from the UK market.