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Another vote for a T5 Kombi
Huge Dog crate to look after the hounds, can squeeze a few bikes in there for day trips - Atera Strada on towbar when the bus is full..
5 Adult size seats - we had Merc E class and Volvo estates prior to this - nowhere near the capacity/capabilities of the tranporter.
Same footprint as the estate car - Mrs reckons the school run is way easier in the van as people give her more consideration.
As the kids grow up we might go up to a Ducato size next time...we don't go to cities very much and don't have that many parking challenges locally
I think it would be of help to prospective purchases if they could benefit from others experience as to how they load their bikes/kit with tips and photos.
Would it help anyone, would anyone be interested
YES
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52271632134_055d7fef2e_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52271632134_055d7fef2e_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2nD4M7N ]2022-08-08_10-14-29[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/152318156@N08/ ]Steve Weeks[/url], on Flickr
Will get pics of bikes in it later this week - I'm constructing a rack at the minute which bolts into the rear most lashing points and then has a number of axle mounts attached which will slide/swivel to make fitting with front wheels off easier but also stop them from moving/knocking into each other... Prototyping it at the min...
Not sure what A11y is riding but I can easily fit 4 bikes in the back with wheels on and I’ve got shelves running along one side.
Yes, I should clarify I could fit in 4 x bikes with wheels on (before adding my platform/storage).
I think it would be of help to prospective purchases if they could benefit from others experience as to how they load their bikes/kit with tips and photos.
OK, here goes mine. Ford Transit Custom DCIV (5-seater) L2 with bulkhead and tailgate. Raised platform against bulkhead with folding crates lengthways underneath. Fork mount brackets bolted directly to wooden top of platform, although I also have a Saris track system I can use which allows fork mounts to be repositioned more easily.
One, two or three bikes: front wheels off, bars straight.
Four or five bikes: front wheels off, bars turned.
I chose to use fork mounts to avoid issues of bikes rubbing together when driving (Tracey-style pads was my alternative plan), and isn't a very efficient use of the space I know. Certainly posible to pack them more efficiently.
^^^ Old bikes and pre-tarting up with carpet etc but pic gives an idea of the space in the back of a L2 DCIV Transit Custom. Those are 4x adult 29ers inc a couple with near 1300mm WBs. Longest bike I've had in was my extra-longest G15 with 1340mm WB - fitted lengthways with fork axle at bulkhead, rear tyre brushing the tailgate...
^^^ I've added a couple of supports to raise the rear wheels off the floor - opens up the floor area for loading in camping stuff, coolbox, etc. Kids bikes get strapped to ours if we need the space in the middle for 'stuff', or can go outside on the tailgate rack.
I thought I had pics of it fully loaded for a camping trip but I only have part-loaded:
^^^ 2 adult 29ers, 2 x 24" kids bikes, powered fridge/freezer, carry-on sized luggage x 2, pillows, induction hob (purple box vertical), and 4 x storage boxes with stuff. Raised platform with 3 x crates and portaloo still in there too. Not shown is all the STUFF still to be added... Was also my previous attempt at raising the bike rear wheels off the ground but the continuous beam across the van was a PITA (was only secured in with velcro).
All our 'stuff' goes in boxes for ease or organisation even though it's not efficiently using up space - we'd fit more stuff in if it was simply chucked in loose, but that's not my style.
^^^ there's space under the rear bench for 4 x camping chairs, a trolley jack (cos standard scissor jacks are lethal), tools, windbreak, sunshade for side of van, can't remember what else. Individual front seats, heated (p)leather, swivels, electric adjustment on drivers.
^^^ C-channel Sikaflex'd into the roof channel - can attach sunshade or driveaway awning using a pole n clamp. Roof rails I added when we bought the van, proper load-rated ones rather than for styling.
^^^ Fiamma 2-bike tailgate rack (can add 3rd bike rail too), and Kamei Husky XXL 510L (but more like a 600L) roofbox. Still space for bike carriers either side of the roofbox, but not required. Also shows full-length sidesteps I fitted - functional to help the kids climb in, not (just) for looks.
Five and a half years in and still making enhancements/tweaks to refine what works for us.
I've been told that the fords are crap for security and reliability. I'm not sure I believe either, any comments?
1. Correct, Price is £500 for Hook locks and anti-peel bracket supplied and fitted.
2. Not as far as i know. They sold more Transits than ANYTHING last year (according to top gear anyway).
I have this internal discussion regularly - most often, when parked in a trail centre car park, stood in my pants, cold and wet, trying to avoid getting a tire track on an alcantara headlining and looking over at someobody wheeling a complete bike into their LWB van and getting changed inside!
I've always had two cars, my 'normal' car currently is a very large, comparatively practical E-Class Estate and I think regularly about changing to something a bit more utility.
My own Dad is a long time fan of the Berlingo/Partner/Rifter/Kangooo etc. This was always ean easy choice for him becauyse his purchase criteria were 'is it massive inside/cheap to run/does loads of MPG' and nothing else. He had loads of them and I always thought that they were incredibly useful but not for me.
Now as a family, who likes biking, camping etc, even the E-class is pushing it. Fundamentally, its the bikes - the car will swallow a tonne of camping gear, but bikes would have to go on the roof.
Cars like the previous and new gen Caddy Maxi Life/Grand Tourneo Connect are about the only thing I might possibly consider, and even then the issue is only very very recent and high spec ones, or the brand new collab version (thus, expensive) are the only ones at all viable. I'd need to spend 4x the value of my very nice, 260bhp, quiet, 7 speed automatic, comfy, spacious (for a car) Estate to get anything I'd want to actually use as a car.
Every time I borrow a van or go out with mates who have them I am amazed by it in the short term and proceed directly to autotrader. Soon thereafter. comes the the realisation of having to drive a van. Every day. Most of time completely empty. By choice...
Now none of this seems to make much sense to many of you as evidenced by some of the comments, which is great for you, however some people actually enjoy driving! Its also apparent/amusing how many people comment that their van drives just as good as a car. I can only presume you have only ever driven terrible cars.
Being both a mountainbiker/outdoorsy person, AND a car person, are two very difficult to blend interests.
On the topic - has anyone had a look a a new gen VW/Ford collab Caddy/Tourneo? Being MQB based it might actually not be too bad to drive, it certainly sounds like a big improvement.
Every time I borrow a van or go out with mates who have them I am amazed by it in the short term and proceed directly to autotrader. Soon thereafter. comes the the realisation of having to drive a van. Every day. Most of time completely empty. By choice…
As said matey, they drive really nice... My Custom has heated seats, windscreen, air-con, DAB, loads of space, upright position. I really really like how it drives... But i'll be the first to admit, i'm not a car person in the slightest.
Nice pics A11y. I am so far down the rabbit hole now.
@a11y that looks ace! And exactly the kind of thing I would to have... but just on Sundays and two weeks in July!
Each to their own and all that but afraid that sounds more badge-orientated than practical choices (nothing wrong with that, but doesn't bother me).
You are absolutely right, there are plenty of very nice cars out there and some do a decent job for bike carrying. Likewise, there are (now) plenty of very nice vans (or van-derived vehicles) that do the bike carrying very well and are a nice place to be for driving - but it depends on the type of driving you do - Nurburgring then a van isn't really going to the first choice (although I seem to recall a Top Gear episode where a (tuned) Transit was taken round it and it performed rather well.
As has been said throughout this thread, it seems to be about compromise and what the driver is willing to compromise on.
@a11y, how do you secure the fork of the last bike or 2 bikes at the back of the van. Is it just a case of moving the back wheel to the side and contorting yourself?
@a11y yes I have 18" wheels, which probably does account for quicker tyre wear. I suppose they are a little wider and bigger footprint so will affect mpg as well.
As mentioned by someone else, if we were to go as a family camping, with bikes and dog, then I will need either the trailer, or the bike rack. BTW the van tows the trailer so well - in fact too well! I cant feel it under braking, or accelerating, also cant see it! Bit of a worry sometimes!
My issue is that I really don't want to give up the comforts I have in my car - I've just booked up 2 weeks in Scotland for April/May this year, and I'm looking at a 12hr drive back from Torridon to Kent - I may break that up into 2 days but that's still a lot of miles to cover. The radar cruise, active lane assist, auto gearbox etc etc makes that sort of drive quite easy.
The thought doing that journey regularly (I go to Scotland/Lakes/Wales etc 3-4 times a year at least, all of which are 4-5hrs away minimum) in a noisy, uncomfortable van based car, with no radar cruise control at the minimum, fills me with horror!
I don't need anything that big, so long as it can get a bike or 2 in work wheels on.
The thought doing that journey regularly (I go to Scotland/Lakes/Wales etc 3-4 times a year at least, all of which are 4-5hrs away minimum) in a noisy, uncomfortable van based car, with no radar cruise control at the minimum, fills me with horror!
Have you driven a van much?
The much-higher driving position provides great visibility and makes everything much calmer IME.
And three or four times a year isn't really "regularly".
radar cruise control
the what now ?
Mine will do about 28MPG. 33 on a long run at 70mph
Thats a ford thing i think. Ours (Bigger actual transit, rather than the custom) get similar. I think its because Fuel consumption and emmissions are not directly connected. I suspect they are burning fuel to keep emmissions down?
Having said that, ive had mine remapped and it hasnt improved it noticeably.
Im afraid to say i think there is a reason the Customs/Transporters/Proace are so popular.
They fit in the footprint of any normal car parking space, and under most barriers, they are sufficiently quick, nimble, comfortable and quiet much like an estate and you still have a van.
Shame the Tax on them is held higher than it would be for a car.
There are a lot of horror stories about fords floating about, BUT there are a HUGE number of vans as well. I think they still have an excellent reliability rating.
Most of the horror stories on the 2L seem to be the engine blowing up and needing replacing within 20-30k miles (wet belt issues and bad injectors), so buying a 50k mile one will have the adcanteage of been sufficiently run in to knock most of the gremlins out of it?
Adaptive cruise control is really awesome! Only used it once in Norway on my borthers car - bloody marvellous! It turns out the Titanium X version of the Transit/Tourneo has this feature. My Titanium has std cruise control and auto, so pretty damn good for long journeys
the what now ?
Adaptive cruise control is really awesome!
Yep, radar/adaptive cruise control, once you've used it it's a must have.
Keeps you at a set speed but will also detect cars ahead and automatically slow down to match their speed and speed back up once you pull out into another lane to overtake.
It's hours upon hours of motorway/dual carriageway from my house until I hit the borders so there's no way in hell I'm doing without it.
Have you driven a van much?
The much-higher driving position provides great visibility and makes everything much calmer IME.
And three or four times a year isn’t really “regularly”.
Yeah, a bit - and it doesn't seem that much, but I only did 5k miles last year between MOTs and well over half that was on trips - North Wales, Scotland and Dartmoor - I'm hoping to do more this year. I do very few local miles, other than driving to ride, and once a month in the office, so long distance comfort is a top priority. After all it's going to be the car/vans main use.
The Scotland trip in April is 1500 miles on its own.
The thought doing that journey regularly (I go to Scotland/Lakes/Wales etc 3-4 times a year at least, all of which are 4-5hrs away minimum) in a noisy, uncomfortable van based car, with no radar cruise control at the minimum, fills me with horror!
We drive to Austria 4 times a year and always use the Vito instead of my wife’s BMW, even when not taking all of the toys. It’s a whole different level of comfort for long journeys compared to a car. The seating position alone is the deciding factor, but the Vito is quiet, fast, auto, cruise, economical.
Regarding the Transit driving "experience", as others have said modern vans are a world apart from what they used to be. Like snotrag, I do actually enjoy driving a proper car and I'm not going to pretend it's anywhere near as nice to drive as my 3 series, but I've put 62,000 miles on it in 18 months and I'm still happy. My middling spec has cruise control, DAB, sat nav and heated seat. Top of the range ones can have leather, auto box, LSD and more so you're really not slumming it in a van nowadays!
True, but you pay a lot to get that top spec.
My 17 plate superb is worth around 17k trade in, realistically I'd have to find another 8k to buy a similar age transit custom, with a worse spec and more miles 🤨
If you've got 30k to splunk then you're fine, or 20k and ok with something 5-8 years old with 100k on the clock.
Yep, you definitely pay more for an equivalent van compared with a car but that also applies (albeit to a lesser extent) when you're selling it.
I'm lucky that work pay for mine, but I wouldn't let a few years/miles put me off if I had to buy one myself and couldn't afford new. Our cars are 19 and 33 years old, both with well over 100k miles and neither has ever let us down.
My 17 plate superb is worth around 17k trade in, realistically I’d have to find another 8k to buy a similar age transit custom, with a worse spec and more mile
I paid £16k for a Custom with decent spec and 42,000 on the clocks recently. It's a 2016 model.
I paid £16k for a Custom with decent spec and 42,000 on the clocks recently. It’s a 2016 model.
Find me and L2 one like this and I am sold. would prefer 9 seat minbus version, or 6 seat crewcab.
Find me and L2 one like this and I am sold. would prefer 9 seat minbus version, or 6 seat crewcab.
Throw me a message with your email address and i'll get my mate to find you one.
There's some lovely builders van white, poverty spec (no air con!!) 2017 crew vans with 80k on the clock and mouldy seats/seatbelts and "a few marks" for 18k. Plus VAT.
😐
We have a LWB DCIV Transit, which is used for dog transportation, road bikes, mtbs and moto trials bikes as well as airport runs when visitors come down. We also have a Discovery Sport, which is not always used in preference to the van, even for running around locally. We are about to drive from the SW France to the UK and back, over the course of 4 days and both of us prefer to do it in the van. More space (not that we'll be carrying much), comfier seats and a better driving position being the main attractions.
The van is a little juicier, a little noisier, a little slower but with heated seats, heated screen, excellent mirrors, cruise control and apple car play, it is a better drive on motorways and A roads. We've used it to go to Portugal, Italy and the UK over the four years we've had it.
Headlights are truly awful and there are worries over the cam belt but I would buy another tomorrow.
We are currently looking at buying a motorhome and one vehicle will need to go. At the moment the Disco will be up for sale rather than the van.
Bit more money but very low miles.
Again, more than budget...
But it's an L2 crew
big vans are rather large and can be a pain in the arse in supermarket car parks.
i understand what you’re saying about it being your mistake to make, but give one a good go before making a final decision. perhaps rent one for a trial. not for going on trips, but for the day to day stuff
I've rented a few transit crew cabs and t5s for trips and local moves etc. I was happy.
If only you could get it with a pop top…
Beach 😗
Beach owner here, I’m on my second one. First I had 7 years and this one almost 2 now. I used to have fast cars and don’t miss them at all.
It’s almost the perfect family/ activity vehicle but not quite. As said above, the latest model has all the car like bits - adaptive cruise, auto box, lane assist so is really great to drive long distances.
It’s great for family trips, camping trips, lugging stuff around and is also very nice being high up.
The only place it lets itself down is with bikes. Because the tailgate has the camping chairs in it and the caravelle style rear seat/ Bed is quite big, the load area in the back isn’t massively long.
When there’s 4 or 5 of us in the van with bikes then that’s fine, they go on the tailgate rack.
When it’s just me and my eldest going riding, I want to be able to Chuck 2 bikes in the back without taking wheels off. It can be done but is a bit of a pain putting them in diagonally. I used to be able to put bikes in straight 10 years ago but now they’re longer there’s no chance.
I’ve said for years, If VW made a LWB beach camper then that is the perfect vehicle.
It’s also nice driving round in an expensive vehicle that everyone thinks is a builders van. And they hardly depreciate. I’ve lost the grand sum of £1,500 on my last two over 11 years.
Here’s a pic because I’m attention seeking 😁
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That second van on weeky's post sums up my dilemma - this doesn't help the OP, but why would I spend £23k on a transit custom with basic spec (base cruise and heated seats) when a 10 year old Berlingo for £7k, or a 2016 one for 10-13k, has a similar spec and probably has enough space for me.
As I say, doesn't help the OP (well, might help in realising just how ****ing expensive they are!) but that's where I'm at currently.
In fact I'd get this over a transit custom.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202212072356041?atmobcid=soc3
Interestingly weeksys pricing reflects my experience, I bet he bought before covid, they were way cheaper...
If that's big enough for you and ticks all your boxes then yeah a Berlingo looks great.
But I was making a recommendation based on what the OP asked for. 4 people, 2 dogs and 4 bikes inside. Can't think of anything smaller than an L2 Transit or similar that works, although I may be missing something.
Well, you shouldn't buy a van now unless you really need to TBH.
Prices are expected to continue to drop this year.
Can’t think of anything smaller than an L2 Transit or similar that works, although I may be missing something.
No, I completely agree - but he also has a budget of 20k. Which, at the current prices doesn't get you anything with a decent spec and/or newish and/or low miles.
Well, you shouldn’t buy a van now unless you really need to TBH.
Prices are expected to continue to drop this year.
They're not dropping though.
I bought mine with 5+ years of ownership in my mind. Which even if I could get for £1000 less in 6 months time, is really nothing over the next 5 years or more. But I wanted a van now, not October or whenever, sometimes you just have to get on with it and jump in. Like a planet X purchase, things may get better if you wait, but who knows when and indeed what you'll get in the end.
weeksy, you make sense, I'd be using the same logic. I need it by end of feb, so if I see the right one now, I'm getting it.
Why do I need it by end of feb?
Me and 3 mates are going to pyrenees and spain for 2 weeks on a riding trip.
weeksy, you make sense,
Hold on, let's not go too far here.
I don't think they will come down in price, ever. Look at the prices of new cars compared to 5 years ago.
My car in 2017 was £32k new. The same model, same engine now is £42k new. That's not going to change.
@a11y, how do you secure the fork of the last bike or 2 bikes at the back of the van. Is it just a case of moving the back wheel to the side and contorting yourself?
With difficulty! Haven't yet trained up a small child to wriggle in there (plus they're growing too fast...). Fork mounts at tailgate and reverse bikes in would be easier, but wasn't compatible with the layout I wanted with my storage at the bulkhead. For info, this was me trying various ideas:
Security: Transits aren’t worse than most other vans. Too easy to break into.
Reliability: given the volume of them sold its inevitable some issues crop up. Internet blows them out of proportion obviously. Later 2.0 euro6 engines have a ‘wet belt’ (timing belt runs through the engine oil). Oil dilution linked to DPF regens and software issues could cause fuel to dilute the oil and degrade the wet belt. Belt snaps, engine goes boom. More frequent oil changes than the scheduled isn’t a bad idea.
Re van driving experience. As @snotrag says a van will never compare to the comfort of a decent car. I’m also a car person – or was, I just sold THIS and still in mourning – but genuinely find driving the van a nice experience: raised position/visibility, plenty of space, comfy seats, cruise, speed limiter, A/C, heated seats. Ride is OK, it’s a commercial vehicle after all. Still a less jiggly ride than Mrs a11y’s Qashqai on 18” wheels. Different mindset when driving the van, just chill.
And pricing. Just ridiculous. I paid £22.5k in Sept 2017 for a factory order inc options of towbar, metallic paint, leather seat package, single passenger seat, tailgate, etc. To be fair that was a 33% discount off list price so rather exceptional. Until recently the likes of WBAC/Motorway were offering close to that if I wanted to sell it to them, which I don't!
Any reason not to buy a transit custom that's done 130k? Not expecting to do mega miles, just weekend trips, odd short run.
@ally- do you know the dimensions of the load area? We’ve currently got an Alhambra - often need the 6/7 seats or load area for my sons wheelchair. If we’re off camping we have to use a trailer for his chair & the gear.
Have been looking at replacing the Seat- generally other MPV style seating but likely still need a trailer. Seeing yours makes me think a crewcab with 6 seats & decent load area may let us do away with the trailer.
Any reason not to buy a transit custom that’s done 130k? Not expecting to do mega miles, just weekend trips, odd short run.
I test drove one with 130k about 6 months ago, it was quiet, nice, a happy place to be... I should have bought it in honesty.
Surely the ultimate biking vehicle is a bike? Folk seem to be recommending tin boxes for biking 🙂
Surely the ultimate biking vehicle is a bike? Folk seem to be recommending tin boxes for biking
NOt until you get there.... but we're not all crazies who can ride 200 miles to get somewhere 😀
Have been looking at replacing the Seat- generally other MPV style seating but likely still need a trailer. Seeing yours makes me think a crewcab with 6 seats & decent load area may let us do away with the trailer.
We went from estate to MPV to make camping trips possible without a trailer (no roofbox as wanted option of taking kayaks). It was such an arse packing it that we got a trailer. We now have an MPV and a trailer.
Appreciate your situation is slightly different as you have a wheelchair to contend with and I found in my previous experience with ageing relatives they're often hard to make really compact and ideally they need to be accessible with zero boot Jenga whenever you stop (wheelchairs not the ageing relatives).
We found the trailer has a really big benefit while camping as it holds all the boxes/spares/bike kit/dog food etc so it's not cluttering up the tent and it's not in the car boot while you're on a day out. It's also bigger than it needs to be so packing up is a doddle. If you want a van then go for it but don't get rid of the trailer just yet I've seen a few Transporters with a small camping trailer tucked behind the tent.🫣
tj is just recommending what he has got. : )
I don’t think they will come down in price, ever.
Used van asking prices have already been dropping off a bit in the last couple of months, when I've been searching.
I don't know about new ones though.
@ally- do you know the dimensions of the load area?
L2 DCIV is about 1.8m loadspace length - marginally longer than that at floor level due to the curve in the bulkhead (I'm 1.87m tall and could just about sleep fully stretched out lengthways in it, not that I've tried)). Between the wheelarches quoted width is 1390mm, width side to side 1775mm. Cargo area height in H1 van 1.4m.
If I had a crewcab - assume that is A11ys dciv? I woudl remove the bulkhead. I did this in a transit rental once and there was a lot more room. It was jsut a plastic moulding held in with slef tappers, easy to remove and replace.
They are from a sail maker on the South Coast RB Sails. They are bombproof. Had them for seven years and not damaged a bike in transit yet.
We also use them in the back of the camper. They have been allover Europe. Wouldn’t transport the bikes without them.
I had RB Sails noted and was going to get some made but hadn't got around to taking dimensions. Then noticed Evoc make something bike shaped that's a chunk cheaper than they were going to be. Works well - covers all the potential contact points and works with front wheels on or off. £50 at the moment.
Evoc Bike Rug
It's not so snazzy or refined, but I use some of those chunky, soft workshop floor mat tiles to place between bikes in the back of the van. Supplemented with old curtains if necessary.
Great for standing on in car parks, sitting on to eat lunch, etc. too.
that Evoc is PERFECT.... i'll get on the case 🙂
If I had a crewcab – assume that is A11ys dciv? I woudl remove the bulkhead. I did this in a transit rental once and there was a lot more room. It was jsut a plastic moulding held in with slef tappers, easy to remove and replace.
Yep, DCIV (Double Cab In Van) Ford-speak for VW's Kombi / crewcab. Standard bulkhead is indeed moulded plastic, easy to unbolt, fairly robust. However, not much to be gained from removing it as it closely contours the rear seat with only a couple of cm between bulkhead and seatback. Also bear in mind the cab floor level in a DCIV is a few cm higher than cargo area, leaving a step up if you removed the bulkhead.
Found a photo of the rear before I built my platform/storage - that was a large 29er with 1200mm-ish WB:
Yeah we were transporting beds and were able to tuck them under the back seats, jsut needed an extra couple of inches...
That bike rug is it two sides? So would fold out like a butterfly? If so its awesome.
I got 34mpg from the first tank. As it was not the sort of conditions today that need the screen/windows clearing with the air-con i thought i'd switch it off when i was out.
Over a 2 hour trip.
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52608824215_9b2fccd4f6_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52608824215_9b2fccd4f6_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2o9RYzn ]2023-01-05_12-51-18[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/152318156@N08/ ]Steve Weeks[/url], on Flickr
Got to be happy with that... mostly motorway and sitting at 67mph on the Cruise control.
Very good. I get at best 36/37mpg on a long steady run and about 33mpg, maybe a bit less, with mixed driving. 16year old T5.
I'm in roughly the same position as the OP (minus the dog) and the pics have been really useful so thanks for those. Cant make my mind up whether to chuck £20k at a van or stick with our ageing Berlingo..
We're at tipping point now with 2 bikes on a rack, 2 inside (and bikes getting bigger as kids grow), and needing to buy a roof bag/box for camping kit. I'd much rather chuck it all in the van though.
If you don't need 6/7/8 seats, I'd say a nice spec crew cab van all day. Bets both worlds for being able to fit kids in comfortably and just wang stuff in the back. fully loaded, wheels might need to come off the bikes but as weeksy said you can't see anything in there so all good.
My Viano has privacy glass in all windows behind the driver/passenger ones, but I'm sure if you really wanted to see, you'd be able to squash your face up against the glass a be able to see outlines....
We wanted the extra seat and the extra bit of luxury though (leather heated seats and all that...), so I know I'll pretty much always need to put some bikes on the tow ball rack during big holidays. It'll just have to be the wifes and daughters!!
As for the driving experience, I've driven to the Alps/Pyrenees in 2 different Passat estates, 1 petrol, one diesel, a ford SMax and my Viano. I can honestly say that for all of us in there (4 normally, but I had 5 kids (11-16) in the back last summer driving back from Pyrenees), the Viano has been the best. It just seems so effortless. Auto helps I suppose, but it's jsut so easy to drive long distance on motorways.
Nice.
So an L2 minibus with the back seats removed would take the same I think.
That's a reasonable assumption. I think they're both M and both slightly old school geometry rather than a massive Geometron for example, but just shows it's not impossible