Ultimate biking vehicle?

I've got an XLWB Viano. Its great.

🤞 I haven't now cursed it....

Does that mean extra long wheelbase? I think i need that?

Not what you want to hear, but a large estate will be:

More fuel efficient
More commonplace for spares
Nicer to drive
Cheaper to run (tax, bang for buck purchase price)
More comfortable for passengers (this one is quite a biggie and often overlooked)
Better day to day in the real world when not on your family trips (height restrictions etc)

On the rare occasions you make an overnight stopover, just take the bikes off the roof and lock them up.

Otherwise you are in T5 or Vivo territory for that money.

Any van or estate with a Tow Bar Rack.

Berlingo. Your usage case is literally what we’ve done with ours for the past 4 years, apart from the 2 kids bit.

one thing to know... the Viano/Merc seats whilst removable is really a 2 man job... they're VERY substantial !!!!

But i'd say yeah, the Merc is very much along the right lines.

Thanks for rack and estate suggestions, however I've done bike rack and trailer on various long trips, and I am done with it. If buying a bigger vehicle turns out to be a mistake, well thats my issue to live with.
Viano's look good.
What about peugeot, vauxhall, citroen, and ford, all cheaper? Are they less reliable than a merc?

On a recommend what you've got Tourneo Custom LWB bought on impulse 4 years ago as a Ford Black Friday deal before prices went mad
Ours is used as a daily driver, 4 adults and 4 bikes with wheels on isn't a problem. Dog in the back is great. Daughter takes to the alps with all the seats removed and sleeps in it no problem.
After previously having estates and MPVs I wouldn't want to go back.

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Berlingo XL if you can find a non-EV one. EV ones only have a 174 mile claimed range so that'll likely be 150 mile real world.

Or big estate - think Volvo V90, Merc E-Class, BMW 530d etc etc, or curveball (and because this STW where people recommend what they have) a Dacia Jogger.

Personally I wouldn't buy a T5/Vito/Vivaro etc because for 99% of the journeys I do it'll be massively overkill.

peugeot, vauxhall, citroen

All the same van pretty much, so take your pick.

I totally agree a LWB van is perfect, saying that I have SWB transporter and I can get 3 kids, a wife and a dog in it and 5 CX bikes in the back along with rollers and kit for 4 people. MTB's are just as easy but to get more in you take the front wheel off.

With teh back seats folded I can get a bike in and my fishing bed along with all the kit for a weekend away easily

I wish I'd bought my K9 Berlingo years ago. Bar far the most comfortable car I've driven. Not too big for short trips or to park in carparks. Big enough to get bikes in the back, upright with only the front wheel off. Could do it with the wheel on if you tie them to something. It gets 50mpg on long motorway journeys too. 1.2 petrol.

I started a similar/different thread on the same subject. I have been a mtb'er for almost 30 years and my best vehicle has been a 5 seat pickup. I have had 2x L200's bought the first new in 2005 and the second almost new in 2017, and just sold it.

By far the best vehicle for muddy dogs. Cage in the back, four bikes on the roof, and loads of space for gear around and in front of the cage. I loved driving pickups also, calmed my driving down no end, lightweight rear end on a two ton car going sideways on a wet round-a-bout is a little scary.

We did 2000 miles to Switzerland, Italy and beyond on a walking/mtb holiday this summer. four bikes on the roof, no dogs all the gear, fridge etc in the back. The last one was ace on the autoroutes, cruise control and was getting almost 40 even with the bikes up top.

why sell it? We bought an EV Merc and now the truck just sat there, I was doing c4-6k miles pa but now pretty much using it just for the sake of it. Last service cost £2k and see a clutch needing doing soon, lat one (12+ years ago cost £1500 so was expecting £3k this time. Plus I wasnt working so it was expensive to see this just sat on the drive.

Working again (in London) so no need for a daily drive but missing the mtb vehicle. I have been looking at T6 Caravelle and Merc Jap import Viano's but after just watching my wife come back in with the muddiest Border Collie in the world I wonder if I should get another pickup, maybe a VW Amerok?

A pickup with a dog cage keeps all the mess separate, same for the mtb gear. I once had seven bikes on my old pickup on the roof and on racks on the roller cover (prior to dog and hardtop).

I do wish Tracey would stop posting about that lovely looking van....

Or big estate – think Volvo V90

TBH, much though i hate to say it, but the latest V70 you can find is *probably* a better bet, especially in budget! My ex has one and it takes pretty much the same amount of stuff as the V90's we've had. Mainly as the boot is big and square. The V90 is lower and more awkward to use.
We've had 3 road bikes in the boot of a V70 before now. Plus 4 people and all the kit for a stage race.
Or 2 road bikes, plus spare wheels, full tool box etc and enough kit for a fortnight in Spain.

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IT's the van version... but shows the space. I can obviously put them a lot lot closer together if needed.

a van is worse than a car at all "day to day" (non biking) activities. A car is worse than a van at doing a bit holiday, 4 up with bikes. Its worth balancing your compromise on how much time you spend doing each. Something like a galaxy will be fine for 2 bikes + 2 people, fine for 4 people and luggage (nicer than a van for that for sure), but a minor faff for 4 + luggage + bikes (both wheels off needed).

I do wish Tracey would stop posting about that lovely looking van….

Yeah, I think that looks perfect.

For us it is. We have always swapped after 4 years but this is going nowhere soon.

I thought the answer was always Octavia?

2 dogs mean most of your load carrying space will be given over to them when they come

Estate + roof box + towball bike rack

Mix and match as required for each journey

a van is worse than a car at all “day to day” (non biking) activities.

For example ? I've just been shopping in mine, delivering a parcel, getting milk... It worked perfectly well.

I'm sticking with my large estate.

Does that mean extra long wheelbase? I think i need that?

Yes extra long, over hangs parking spaces a bit, but not too difficult to find spaces to fit it in. Sliding rear doors helps with kids getting in and out as well.

As Weeksy says, the rear seat are bloody hefty. Pretty easy to get in and out but heavy to move if you're not right next to where you're leaving them.

We've got a small petrol run around as well so means we don't have to kill too many dolphins and don;t spend too much on deisel for the Viano. TBH though its not too bad on a good long run through France. Not that much worse than my previous Ford SMax.

Its sooo nice to drive on big motorway journeys though, you just don't seem to get tired. I actually wanted a torneo like Tracy's up there but couldn't find an automatic for a decent price, so went back to the Viano. I don't regret it. Mines an 8 seater and the kids really like having the rear seats facing each other. If we're fully packed up though the rear most set will have to come out or at least fold down to pack stuff on. I reckon with 4 bikes you'd need to take wheels off to get them all in along with other stuff though.

The thread title is 'ultimate' biking vehicle, anyone suggesting a rack has failed the first requirement.

I recently had a hoody give my bike a good yank whilst on the rack, I was in the car guarding the bikes (and browsing STW). By the time I'd worked out it wasn't a gust of wind and that the car next to me hadn't clipped the rack, and got out, hoody had quick marched across the car park and was almost out of site. He could've had the bike off and a head start by the time I'd got out. I guess he saw my head move when he rocked the car.

Equally, bikes on a rack whilst touring equals restless nights and a problem if you want to go out for a curry...

The "ultimate biking vehicle" is obviously... a bike.

Everything listed by the OP could be done on a bike with a bit of help from public transport.

A Nissan Prairie or a Berlingo - I am clearly winning at life!

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I find modern estate cars just aren't big enough for modern bikes where the aim is bikes inside. A lot of small and medium vans are no bigger than a large estate, our long Vito is only 50mm longer than a Mondeo we had.
Got a crew van with bulkhead so can properly stack up and make use of the extra height of a van.

the kids really like having the rear seats facing each other.

Can these be changed back, or is it fixed?

For example ? I’ve just been shopping in mine, delivering a parcel, getting milk… It worked perfectly well.

its clearly larger. That means

it uses more fuel
its worse for parking
its noisier than a car
its less comfortable than a car
etc etc

now, it might be "good enough" for shopping, its its not as good. In the same way that for an annual trip 4 up, an estate car with bikes on a rack is "good enough", but possibly not as good as a van

I was quite a few years with large estate cars, towbars and roof boxes. May 2021 I bought myself a Ford Tourneo (19 plate) SWB. Although I would have liked a LWB, I was concerned about parking spaces and also my driveway would not be long enough, so SWB it was. Auto, single seats in front as I wanted the space between driver/passenger to possibly walk through and didnt want a squeeze for 3 in the front.
Best decision ever! Its fantastic. ok, I much prefer to use my wife's HRV for driving into towns and short trips as I've whacked the drivers side mirror off twice on country lanes - nightmare, but not as bad as it seems (cheap ford parts). Used on lots of trips away, camping and ferrying people in the "party bus". I have a fridge in there pretty permanently, but I can take out when needed. I also have a bunk bed in for the kids when we go camping. I sleep in the awning bedroom or tent (depending on what I can be arsed with putting up). There are 4 of us and also a large dog. I leave the 2 rear seats and middle left seat most of the time. This enables me to put a couple of bikes down 1 side. Its annoying that the SWB cannot fit a bike in with both wheels with middle seats down. As mentioned by someone else, the seats are incredibly heavy. I'd say about 50kg and a little awkward. I'm happy to move them around, but others might not be on their own.

My issues with the van are mainly fuel consumption. Mine will do about 28MPG. 33 on a long run at 70mph. Its not great at all. Also the width going down our country lanes can be scary, especially when a motorhome comes other way with no intention of slowing.

XLWB Vito Tourer (same size as LWB T6)
Take rear 3 seats out and you have a 5 seater with 6’x4’x4’ boot (possibly longer if you slide the 2nd row of seats forward a bit).
Very reliable, do mega miles.
42MPG @ 65mph
50+MPG @ 50mph

My SWB T5 has almost exactly the same footprint as the Saab 93 estate it replaced. With larger reversing mirrors and sensors it's no harder to park and it fits under 2m carpark barriers.

The Saab did 10mpg better on a run and was near as dammit the same when pottering about town. The van is less to insure but a bit more on tax.

The prospect of the OP's scenario of adults, kids, bikes and touring Europe in an estate versus in a van wouldn't cross my mind unless I couldn't afford a van. The convenience of slinging everything inside far outweighs any potential downsides.

I guess someone might mention handling or driving enjoyment but unless you have track days planned that's nonsense imho. I only keep our yaris because it's paid for and keeps junk miles off my van.

mert
Free Member
Or big estate – think Volvo V90

TBH, much though i hate to say it, but the latest V70 you can find is *probably* a better bet

Will agree, you'll get more in a V70, though the V90 Inscription with napa leather is verryyyy comfy and eats the miles - shit on fuel though, my 520D was better.

Tourneo options above look awesome, but are you also getting into Jap import territory as per another recent thread on here?

After the best part of 20 years with large estates we bought a long (swb but longer body then the compact) Vito dualiner 2013 model so last of the w639s with the facelift. 6 seats, privacy glass in side doors and rear tailgate (lift up rather then barn doors). We love it, all day comfy, loads of leg room for everyone. The dog thinks it's wonderful too as he gets to sit up front between me and Mrs f and he can see out of the window (he gets far more attention from the ladies than I ever have) 😀
Mrs f is a long term rheumatoid arthritis suffer and finds it easier to get in and out of, lighter steering and handbrake (foot pedal and dash release) is much easier to use.
It's the 113 so 136bhp and we see around 45mpg at 70 on a run, far better than I was expecting. I'm considering getting it mapped as we also tow a caravan too and whilst it tows it fine it's glacial.
For mounting bikes we use floor mounted tubes that clamp through the fork, front wheels, out slide the axle through and that secures each bike, plenty of room for luggage between the bikes although if we didn't have the caravan I'd probably go for an xlwb to give us another foot of room or so.

We are remembering the 20k limit, aren't we?

I'd love to chop my Skoda Superb in for a tourneo/Vito/viano but 20k doesn't get a lot in terms of something newish/without intergalactic miles.

Big estates are great, but they do have their downsides - even getting a single bike in the boot along with 2 weeks worth of kit/luggage is a right faff and that's with a clean bike. Means you need places with secure storage when going away anywhere. I've left several thousand pounds worth of bikes locked to the towbar once overnight, on Arran - wouldn't want to make it a regular occurrence.

I could probs stretch to this?

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211292125554

Or this

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211191825523

or

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202210210934725?

There seems to be plenty about for just over 20k..

I'd spend 15k on a large estate and use the 5k for hiring something bigger for overnight trips (unless you're planning to do a lot of those each year)

I’d spend 15k on a large estate and use the 5k for hiring something bigger for overnight trips (unless you’re planning to do a lot of those each year)

You're looking at £1000 to hire a tourneo/Vito car for 2 weeks (minimum time I'd spend on a Scotland trip), so that doesn't get you many trips. And the whole point of having an ultimate MTB vehicle is to be able to put the bikes in the back and sod off for a dirty weekend without having to trawl through hundreds of websites looking for somewhere to stay/go and book and collect a hire car.

Those links above are ok but you really don't get a lot for your money. Basic spec, no luxuries. A Berlingo at a quarter of the price would do the same job if you don't need to carry more than 2 people asking with bikes.

I really should get around to testing my Geometron in one to see if it'll fit with the wheels on.

Mine will do about 28MPG. 33 on a long run at 70mph

Are you quite heavy on the gas? I have a 2012 vivario lwb and get close to 40 on a run and low 30s dodging around. I only do 70 ish on the motorway but don't hang around on rural roads.

Are you quite heavy on the gas? I have a 2012 vivario lwb and get close to 40 on a run and low 30s dodging around. I only do 70 ish on the motorway but don’t hang around on rural roads.

Fords don't seem great on economy. I think in honesty most of the others are better.

Jeez that Vito is expensive! I guess they’re in short supply at the moment.

I paid less for a 2018 one in 2019 with 16000 miles and a fair bit nicer.
Also, it’s an L2 (long) so is definitely a front wheels off bikes job with 5 seats in.

I've a Berlingo Outdoor and can get 3 people, 3 bikes and luggage in for a weekend away all inside vehicle - it is tight but doable.

An ultimate MTB vehicle isn't the same as one that also needs to carry bodies and dogs...it can be done but it is a compromise on everything as each thing has specific requirements.

So I think you need something that allows flexible carrying options - unless of course your MTB adventures all include the whole family and the dogs...in which case you need something very big.

Slightly larger than nuclear family here but regardless, the caravelle IS the ultimate activity supporting vehicle.

I bought this for comfortably under your budget at 3 years old (with intergalactic miles on it) and in the 7 years since it’s done a further 100k trouble free miles and it’s probably still worth close to what I bought it for - so it’s free

Benefits of a caravelle over a van or minibus is that the passengers get swivel recliners, climate control, airbags, sunscreens and flexible seating\luggage and for the driver, it’s a car so easy to insure, normal speed limits, allowed at the tip etc

Does 42mpg at 60mph, mid 30’s at 70 with cruise control on. My partner gets better MPG than me as she doesn’t use cruise

https://imgur.com/a/jxTPk4u

Are you quite heavy on the gas? I have a 2012 vivario lwb and get close to 40 on a run and low 30s dodging around. I only do 70 ish on the motorway but don’t hang around on rural roads.

Not at all. My front tyres are about 16000 miles old, which I think is well above average. I do hear of people getting mid 30s easy, but mine is auto and maybe more juicy than most

 if you don’t need to carry more than 2 people asking with bikes.

Did you read the OP?

Jeez that Vito is expensive! I guess they’re in short supply at the moment.

There was ajump during covid that has not come back down, I started looking in late 2019, planning to buy in spring 2020.Prices looked much lower than now.
When covid came I waited thinking we may not be able to do much driving anyway, and suddenly its 2023 and everything is 4 or 5k sharper.

16000 miles is good for Transit front tyres? WTF??? I'm at 34000 on a Dispatch XL crew van and still maybe 6 months off replacing the fronts (and that will be nowhere near worn to the limit).

The XL in Dispatch etc and some Vitos get the extra length from the rear overhang, so they fit a normal space if there is a verge or kerb to overhang a little at the back. And drive a bit more normally because not a huge wheelbase.

We've done lots of foreign trips and I fully understand wanting bikes inside for city stop offs etc (locked to a solid bracket in the bodywork, with the locking point and D-lock hard to cut as buried under the bikes).

We are on a Toyota ProAce having had the Citroen Spacetourer before that. These vans are great. All rear seats are removable, foldable and slide so perfect as an 8 seat bus, 2 seat hauler, 4 seat bike weekend etc. I built a tie down platform so luggage goes under and bikes on top.

We have had ours on a hire, so not sure what they can be bought for second hand.

Good MPG as well and really nice to drive if you aren't in a rush and well specced and comfortable. I actually prefer driving it to my wife's car and the practicality of it wins every time.

16000 miles is good for Transit front tyres?

Just going by what my local tyre place said (punctured rear had to be replaced). They said usually 12000. I still have more tread left btw.

We are on a Toyota ProAce having had the Citroen Spacetourer before that. These vans are great.

Are they they same van but different badges?

Here is an LWB one good value. This could be just the ticket.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202211121617617

Previous shape facelift Vito can easily be had for half the OP budget.
Mileage is relative as vans tend to have more miles on them than cars. Sub 200k is considered low on a Vito, even if many Transporters fail to get beyond that, there are a good few Vitos out there hitting 500k

Can these be changed back, or is it fixed?

Yeah they can be all facing forward or the second row can be flipped round to face backwards, I think they call it conference position. All on on floor rails. The kids love it like that, I'd prefer them all facing forward, but it is much nicer for people in the back, and we quite often have a few others in there.

Mines a 64 plate, last of the W639's full leather seats and fancy interior. Fits under 2m height barriers so good for the French tolls if you ha e a toll tag.

It's just hit 100k, so I'm banking on getting another 200k miles out if it!!

Just going by what my local tyre place said (punctured rear had to be replaced). They said usually 12000. I still have more tread left btw.

Transit owner here, 12k is absolutely not usual. But my van is rarely carrying its full weight capacity, most of the loads are bulky but light.

It’s just hit 100k, so I’m banking on getting another 200k miles out if it!!

I bought a new Dualiner 639 3L V6 in 2006.
Sold it in 2019 with 230000 miles when I bought my 447 Tourer. The MOT garage I use bought it and it’s still going strong.

Slightly larger than nuclear family here but regardless, the caravelle IS the ultimate activity supporting vehicle.

If only you could get it with a pop top…

Beach 😗

Where are those pads around the bikes from?

They are just what I need.

They are from a sail maker on the South Coast RB Sails. They are bombproof. Had them for seven years and not damaged a bike in transit yet.
We also use them in the back of the camper. They have been allover Europe. Wouldn't transport the bikes without them.

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https://www.rbsails.com/

Just tell them Tracey sent you as I suspect there have been several orders on the back of Tracey's recommendation! Surely about time a deal was available. 😀

People saying a Skoda superb cramped to the eyeballs with 4 people and luggage will be more comfortable than a van down to France, clearly haven’t driven modern high spec vans.

The massive extra space to stretch out and upright captains chairs (so your legs aren’t extended out in front of you for hours, rather you’re sat like you would be in a normal chair similar to in an suv), and being able to see well over everything on the roads, makes for a very relaxing cruiser.

Plus they just swallow everything. No rack nonsense or having to even think about Tetris with bags.

I drive an SMax. In many respects it's a brilliant biking/ sailing/ family day out motor. Loads of space in it for luggage and people. Three bikes and three people inside with a bit of juggling and in good conditions it's an insanely comfy and relaxing place to be.

BUT now I'm driving regularly for work again post Covid it's daily driver downsides are more obvious. High amongst which is low 40s mpg and being high sided it's not exactly 10/10 in the current high wind dominated weather.

YMMV but think very carefully about whether that everyday compromise is really worth not taking a trailer or bike rack. It may well be but if you're clocking up a lot of "functional" miles don't underestimate the annoyance factor of the downsides.

Although re reading your OP maybe you don't cover the same commute/work driving/lightly loaded trips to extended family miles that I do in which case you're probably far better placed to live with the compromises than I am.

Reading the title and completely ignoring the original post here is mine suggestion…

Surely though it's not the ultimate biking vehicle unless the bikes are fully out of sight ?

The Viano/Traveliner and Transit Tourneo, still leave the bikes in sight if you walk away... Sure, not in plain sight if you've got tinted windows, but still if someone is looking/checking, they'd still see £10k of bikes in the back. That for me was a deal breaker as it's likely/possible i'll be leaving a bike or two in there at times...

Surely though it’s not the ultimate biking vehicle unless the bikes are fully out of sight ?

The Viano/Traveliner and Transit Tourneo, still leave the bikes in sight if you walk away… Sure, not in plain sight if you’ve got tinted windows, but still if someone is looking/checking, they’d still see £10k of bikes in the back. That for me was a deal breaker as it’s likely/possible i’ll be leaving a bike or two in there at times…

They're out of sight enough to stop opportunistic scrotes though, who might see a nice bike hanging on the back of a car, and have enough tools with them to have a go at the locks/remove various peices of expensive kit from the bike.

i get you... but i'd still worry... especially if somewhere like Afan and leaving in car park. FoD for example i'd worry a lot less...

Tbh at a busy trail car park I'd worry even less as there'll be loads of bikes on cars (aka, 'easy pickings') for them to not have to bother trying to get into a car/van!

The biggest worry for me is parking up at a remote hotel car park, or staying somewhere for a few days. It doesn't take much to have the bikes seen and be followed and then a battery angle grinder in the night... whoosh, 10k of bikes gone.

Having gone through the same thought process with expensive motorbikes, if someone wants them bad enough, you can't protect against it - but put in enough deterrents and you'll prevent all but the most determined thieves from having a go. The more things they have to get around/through, the more people you deter.

The very first step in this is not having the bikes on show for anyone and their dog to see! 😁

I reckon a VW Caravelle or Combi is the way to go. I have a T5 van converted to a camper. The rear seats (rock and roll type) aren't that comfortable but I'm not too bothered as I'm always driving. A Caravelle or Combi doesn't have the reduced speed limits of a converted van though to be honest I'm never really bothered as I don't drive fast. It is a 2005 model but I can still get over 40mph if I drive carefully. They also have proper rear seats so comfort isn't an issue.

As for the size, it is the same as a Mondeo so will fit in a normal supermarket parking space (A long wheel base will not as it is 40cm longer). It has the added advantage of having a sliding door which is great in car parks as it makes it easier to get in and out of than a car.

As for problems well, a big one where I live is low emission zones. It costs £9 to drive into the city. These are springing up all over the place so if it is your only vehicle, this may be a problem. Also, they are expensive though you would be able to get a decent one for £20,000 albeit not one that will get into a low emission zone free. It won't depreciate either. Ours is still worth what we paid for it 10 years ago.

Most of the above seem to miss that you have the 2 kids, let alone dogs in for the ride. We did Europe in a LWB Transporter this year, but had to put bikes on the back as by the time you fill it with everything you want to live with there's not much room for 1-2 bikes, let alone 4. We went with cheaper bikes on a towbar rack so I didn't worry so much about the theft (Although I'd have still been gutted) and the 'proper' bike in the van buried for when we got to the Alps. 4 people, plus dogs, plus 4 bikes inside any vehicle beyond a Sprinter size van will always be a game of uncomfortable Tetris IMHO.

Just going by what my local tyre place said (punctured rear had to be replaced). They said usually 12000.

Depends on wheelsize. On owners group plenty of Transit Custom folk with 18" or bigger wheels moan about tyres lasting <10k miles. No problems with normal 16" though, I'm on 25k on original Pirelli Carrier all-seasons in 215/65r16C with plenty of tread remaining.

I feel like I have answered my own question, but which van

You have, in terms of thinking a van. Which van though... in STW recommend-what-you-own style, a dual-cab L2 Transit Custom. You'll get one within £20k budget. Your use description is same as ours minus the dogs. 2+2 family, multiple bikes inside several times weekly, camping holidays loaded to the gunnels. Having bikes hidden from view was a priority although we've since added a tailgate rack for flinging bikes on easier/quickly when we're fully loaded. It's also my only vehicle used for weekly shopping, kids afterschool activities etc.

Its all a compromise. A big estate would be more suitable much of the time, but having bikes hidden from sight and using it as a mobile changing room after biking/paddleboarding is worth the compromise for us.

Cargo area on a Transit Custom is impacted by the extra seats, compared to @Weeky's van version. Even with L2's extra length over L1, front wheels come off to fit bikes in lengthways - a couple of bikes wheels-on diagonally is possible. Multiple configurations possible: I can carry up to 3 bikes on individual fork mounts, bars straight, but >3 bikes requires twisting handlebars. Or, I can closely pack 2 bikes either side leaving centre of cargo area for camping stuff.

Fork mounts on raised platform at bulkhead with folding crates (camping gear and bike washer) plus a Portaloo permanently stored underneath:

had to put bikes on the back as by the time you fill it with everything you want to live with there’s not much room for 1-2 bikes, let alone 4. We went with cheaper bikes on a towbar rack so I didn’t worry so much about the theft (Although I’d have still been gutted) and the ‘proper’ bike in the van buried for when we got to the Alps

Bingo. As you say, bikes inside seriously redcued space for other stuff. Alternative is to add a roofbox for 'other stuff', still allowing 4 x bikes inside. We only need ours for the bigger camping holidays and negates the need for packing Tetris. I'd rather that than have any bikes on show whatsoever.

Saying that, we've recently added a tailgate-mounted 2-bike rack for extra flexibility for biking trips - the cheaper/kids bikes on that and proper bikes buried inside same as above. Rear rack not used if we're stopping off overnight or for a day visit somewhere enroute though.

That's a nice set up @a11y

Despite the space that van gives you, add 2 dogs into the mix and I can't see where they'd go, which means the OP needs something even bigger... 🫤

I'm glad it's just me and my bikes I have to cater for 90% of the time! 🤣

Get a Transporter T5/6 Combi. Costly to buy but they hold their value like nothing else on the road. Buy anything else and you'll always be wondering if you are forever the bridesmaid but never the bride. They are popular for a good reason IMO.

Oh and don't buy a Vito. Almost every one I've seen seems to be more rust than actual metal.

Oh and don’t buy a Vito. Almost every one I’ve seen seems to be more rust than actual metal.

How old were they ? That changed a LOT in 2008 as they became galvenized (or however you spell)

Rather than the T5/T6 thing (which won't be large enough) - I'd suggest a Crafter as those tend to be larger and more likely to have space for everything - as I mentioned in a previous post, there isn't 1 thing that will fit everything in readily as it needs to be a compromise for everything, but something larger will make the compromises smaller. Issue with going larger is generally cost as that will increase (not forgetting the larger size for height restrictions and parking spaces/ferry pricing, etc.).

A Crafter (IMO) crosses the line between what's usable as a daily driver and what's not. Like you say though, compromises.

I previously exclusively used a VW T5 LWB camper as my daily for 2 years and anything bigger would've been a PITA daily. Engaged in some extreme parking yesterday in the Transit: can just about get away with sticking it in a normal car park space, not a chance with anything bigger.

https://flic.kr/p/2nE7Aeb

Our 2011 SWB T5.1. It:
- probably worth 20k although the van market is still mental
- sleeps 4 with the Reimo roof and Amdro kombi bed
- seats 6 (usually 4 of us plus the dog)
- rear seats unclipped in seconds to make a "proper" van - had a pallet of tiles forklifted into it last year which I eouldnt have been able to do with my estate car
- does 600+ on a tank
- easy fits 3 bikes in without trying. 4 is easy without wheels and still have loads of room for bags etc
- tow bar for rack if needed
- roof rails for roof box when a bit of extra space is needed
- ability on non-bike holidays to catapult everything including the kitchen sink into the back and still gave room to then load all my non-essential-but-nice-to-take fishing gear in too

Similar to A11y I've got a crew cab L2 Transit Custom. Bulkhead keeps the dirty bikes and stuff separate from the cabin and completely out of sight. Single passenger seat so cabin feels spacious and comfortable even with 5 adults. Not sure what A11y is riding but I can easily fit 4 bikes in the back with wheels on and I've got shelves running along one side. Footprint is actually smaller than the Ranger I had before, which was rubbish.

Think this all depends on how the dogs travel?

In cages in the back? Then a crew cab with bulkhead.

In cabin with you? Then a minibus-type van.

Then do you want the bikes inside as well (recommended)?

Yes? Then LWB version.

No? Then SWB will probably do fine.

Doesn't look like it will make it over any speed bumps though! 😉

And yeah, Crafter is a big beastie, but it will reduce a number of the compromises (whilst introducing new ones)...

I was thinking about this last night reading this if I was looking to buy but not sure on how it would work for me.

We were lucky as we drove past the right van at the right to us price and bought it that day, If we hadn't been detoured due to an accident we wouldn't have seen it and we weren't even looking.

We also knew from owning a camper how we stored the bikes inside it so had a bit of an idea what we wanted.

I think it would be of help to prospective purchases if they could benefit from others experience as to how they load their bikes/kit with tips and photos.

Would it help anyone, would anyone be interested