[Closed] UK's first Muslim Sectarian Murder ?

British values include worshipping a Palestinian, deferring to Germans, speaking bastardised French and doing whatever an Australian billionaire tells us to. Get it right ffs

My assertion is the ira's primary objective was to cause commercial damage and disruption, secondary was to target the military and thirdly civilians

What even are British values? I strongly suspect you mean white middle class male values, personally...

@kona Jesus was Jewish.

He did live in Palestine though, same as being from Scotland makes you Scottish

Around 10,000+ gun killings per year in the USA, largely by Christians, I guess, and most of them able to travel freely to Europe. Sounds pretty scary.

Palestine as defined in the Bible, a predominantly Jewish land (not a country) for 1000's of years with Jerusalem as the largest city, long before the advent of Christianity I think you'll find.

This Yorkshire school most definitely does notromote British values, read it yesterday but didn't comment on here.

[i]Other leaflets and newsletters, some of which are distributed to Deobandi mosques, say all mixed-sex institutions are evil, warn Muslims not to adopt British customs, ban the watching of TV, and tell women not to go out to work and to be fully covered before leaving the house.[/i]

[url= http://news.sky.com/story/1670528/exposed-uk-school-promoting-extreme-islam ]Sky News[/url]

Prejudices, it is well known, are most difficult to eradicate from the heart whose soil has never been loosened or fertilised by education: they grow there, firm as weeds among stones.

seems apt.

I just dont get the desperation to defend what is so bleeding obviously a malicious unpleasant ideology. You all want to be liberal feee thinkers not swayed by the man or full of hate bit c'mon for god (ha) sake even the dumbest of the dumb can see much of what Islam promotes is abhorent.

Not all Nazi's worked on Gas chambers, some drove trucks, some were teachers, some worked on farms etc etc but all had the underlying intent and even if only by not objecting were conspiritors in the crimes.

George Galloway in the New Statemen .. note [b]not a tiny minority[/b] I agree here with Galloway I just think the numbers are much higher

[i]
“There is something else, and this is more painful for Muslims to hear,” he says, leaning in closer. “There is something present in the Muslim Ummah – people – there is something present. There is a germ of extremism and sectarianism that affects a minority of Muslims, but not a tiny minority.

“If you put it in a worldwide context, it affects millions. If you put it in Britain, it definitely affects thousands. Not many thousands, but thousands – not hundreds – of extremists, who carry within them sectarian and fanatic interpretation of Islam, which is deeply, deeply damaging to Islam, to themselves, and of course to the innocent people who they harm[/i]

I just dont get the desperation to defend what is so bleeding obviously a malicious unpleasant ideology

@kona Jesus was Jewish.

Does that make British Christian values=Jewish values as applied in Palestine?

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Never mind, as least the root cause of Extremist Islam has been identified:

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[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23622364 ]
What did happen to the documents relating to the investigation into the Al-Yamamah Arms Deal anyhoo?[/url]

By the way here is Galloway's description of Sadiq Khan, not British, not English but ****stani. There is really ntohing in that despote posters here tying to make something of it

[i]Islamophobia is one of the reasons why he doesn’t fancy the Labour mayoral candidate and Tooting MP Sadiq Khan’s chances. “It was always a big ask for a ****stani called Khan to be elected,”[/i]

[i]"Around 10,000+ gun killings per year in the USA, largely by Christians, I guess...."[/i]

Interesting on STW that usually people like to make out that Christianity is dead and hardly any Christians really exist, and then we see comments like the above. I'm sure that atheists are also amongst the thousands of murderers out there in the world, but defending prejudice against one religion by being prejudiced against another (or against atheists) is unhelpful.

Seems to be a big problem in human nature~ even when we discuss things trying to find a solution, conflict seems inevitable... doesn't really matter what religion, skin colour, gender or sexual orientation people are, some of them just need to stop and think a bit before being such asshats.

Maybe we should just leave things on their current trajectory, then when the vast military investment of the worlds ruling elite is finally used to it's full potential, the planet's fate can serve as a lesson to other beings in the vast universe when they finally figure out how to harness technology without hostile intent and visit earth to find methane is once again the dominant lifeform, as humans were too volatile.

@kona Jesus was Jewish.
POSTED 3 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

Get out. Jesus? Jewish? Born in Bethlehem, brought up in Nazareth, died and risen in Bethlehem? That Jesus? Jewish? Are you sure?

By the way here is Galloway's description of Sadiq Khan, not British, not English but ****stani. There is really ntohing in that despote posters here tying to make something of it

Islamophobia is one of the reasons why he doesn’t fancy the Labour mayoral candidate and Tooting MP Sadiq Khan’s chances. “It was always a big ask for a ****stani called Khan to be elected,”

I think George is definitley talking to you on that one Jamba. 🙄

Church now accepts Jesus was Jewish, for some time to convert to Christianity you had to be Jewish first (so I have been told). I just thought that was more pertinent than your comment he was Palestinian

@thestabiliser I was quoted that as some posters here have been trying to make something of the fact I called the shopkeeper ****stani when I did that as that's what the BBC said and at the time there was no comment about whether he was British citizen. I wonder how he voted in the Referendum ?

Galloway (odious little toad though he is 99% of the time) has clearly used that description to allude to the fact that a significant proportion of the electorate are a little bit racist. Durrr.

Get out. Jesus? Jewish? Born in Bethlehem, brought up in Nazareth, died and risen in Bethlehem? That Jesus? Jewish? Are you sure?

Welcome back JY, did you have a ban ?

1%, 5%, 10% who knows ?

More extremists found guilty today. [url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/01/luton-delivery-driver-junead-khan-guilty-planning-terror-attack-us-troops ]Luton Lorry Driver found guilty[/url]

I've been challenged before about my statement that the Koran states that Sharia Law is above all man made law. Well these guys from Luton certainly think so. Also featured is a class given by/for woman pointing out all the great things about life under Sharia / IS. You may have seen this before as it's from just before the GE

Are we at peak fervency?

Dunno about fervour.. I'm at peak boredom
Racists gonna hate whether they be closeted and eloquent or the original muslamic rayguns chap, they're all cut from the same cloth..

The only thing separating them is literacy, elocution and hairstyle..

And the only thing separating [i]them[/i] from ISIS is privilege and circumstance

I wonder how he voted in the Referendum ?

Going by the pics on his Facebook, I'd say he voted Yes. Why?

church now accepts Jesus was Jewish, for some time to convert to Christianity you had to be Jewish first (so I have been told). I just thought that was more pertinent than your comment he was Palestinian

church now accepts Jesus was Jewish

I thought he was a red sea pedestrian and proud of it?

Surely he was proud of nothing. Pride being a deadly sin and all.

jambalaya - Member

George Galloway in the New Statemen .. note not a tiny minority I agree here with Galloway I just think the numbers are much higher

“There is something else, and this is more painful for Muslims to hear,” he says, leaning in closer. “There is something present in the Muslim Ummah – people – there is something present. There is a germ of extremism and sectarianism that affects a minority of Muslims, but not a tiny minority.

“If you put it in a worldwide context, it affects millions. If you put it in Britain, it definitely affects thousands. Not many thousands, but thousands – not hundreds – of extremists, who carry within them sectarian and fanatic interpretation of Islam, which is deeply, deeply damaging to Islam, to themselves, and of course to the innocent people who they harm

1) Jamba invokes George Galloway in an appeal to authority, which is awesome on many levels

2) The muslim population of the UK is 2.5 million, making "thousands, not many thousands"- let's say 5000, which is .2% of the population. A tiny minority

George getting in an argument with himself is a pretty great source.

2) The muslim population of the UK is 2.5 million, making "thousands, not many thousands"- let's say 5000, which is .2% of the population A tiny minority

Northwind, If you do the maths 5,000 is about 0.008333% of the population of the UK

If it's only 5,000 then that's fine.

@jamba...could you clarify what exactly your concern is? I'm seeing stats and comments but am unsure what the debate is regarding...

@jamba...i've just seen above what Northwind copied about what you thought was an issue...

I wonder if you feel the same concerns towards Christianity?

Although it kind of falls flat (your concerns of harming others) when you love capatalism so much...now that (through poverty and oppresion) brings millions of people worldwide to a premature death ...but you defend capatalism very strongly.

I wonder why that is...

@Northwind I would agree, finding Galloway making the same basic comment I have made was indeed a surprise. In terms of numbers I think he's very much on the low side, also when looking at percentages you should exclude children and the elderly, lets use that American term "military age" so men and women from 16-40. When you divide out active extremists by that number of UK Muslims you get much higher percentages and its my view for every person that actually signs up there are 100 (?) that have same/similar views who do not. My other basic point is we really don't know and those that do have a good idea aren't saying.

@eden one of my key concerns is that like Rotherham / Oxford sex abuse a degree of political correctness and concerns about being seen as racist the serious issue of extremism amongst British citizens is not being dealt with or discussed.

If Christians where causing a terrorist threat I'd do all I could to root it out and expose it - zero tolerance. I am absolutely appalled at how the Catholic Church and its members hid child abuse by priests for decades. How the Church especially in Ireland and Spain treated children born outside of marriage and their mothers. This has been exposed by Journalists and film makers most recently in the excellent Oscar winning film Spotlight, long may that continue and may many abusers be brought to justice

Capitalism. Its allowed us to establish a welfare state, its given us the technological advances we have, its meant the world population has grown immensly (whuch you may say is not a good thing). Without capitalism we would be struggling with subsistance farming, without most of the modern benefits of life we enjoy inckuding life itself for billions, the population of India has grown from 300m to 1.2bn in 80 years due to its adoption of capitalism. Thats a lot of extra life.

Capitalism has benefited many people, yes, but it has also been at the detriment of many others. Success for some is at the expense of others.

Capitalism has given us this...
[i][b]“This is the latest evidence that extreme inequality is out of control. Are we really happy to live in a world where the top 1% own half the wealth and the poorest half own just 1%?”[/b][/i]

I suggest to you that more people die prematurely as a result of poverty , poverty which has been caused directly and indirectly by the greed that is inherent in real world capitalism...yet you wish to excuse and justify those deaths and argue that capatalism is still a good thing...

Why do you worry so much abut ISIS and not capitalism? Seems confusing to me...

Communism hasn't exactly shown itself to be squeaky clean either, not that I'm a capitalist either.

Ideologies (Political or religious) are all well and good, but power corrupts and the arms trade remains lucrative whatever dreams you were sold at the last election.

How much tax payers money went into this?

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Suprising how few radicals there are all things considered...

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[img] ?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=GkZZ8bf5zL1ZiijUmxa7QZW0R8rzq0hVRbrOZ%2FO3ruml2RqS6Hf4yp4AzRge%2BZnobQ8fx6R9%2F0RPQZwTBzGioA%3D%3D[/img]

I've been challenged before about my statement that the Koran states that Sharia Law is above all man made law.

We know there are extremist - just like I can show you the Jewish orthodox person refusing to sit next to a female on plane or a Jewish soldier killing a wounded Palestinian or an illegal settler wanting to "wipe out" palestinians

However it remains very foolish to generalise from nutters to the entire population- even with the religious.

its my view for every person that actually signs up there are 100 (?) that have same/similar views who do not.

If Christians where causing a terrorist threat I'd do all I could to root it out and expose it

Collective punishment, Assassinations of political targets in foreign lands, Shooting injured civilians etc
Good to know
FWIW i doubt anyone thinks you are a racist[ I dont] but you are not that consistent and have a huge blind spot.

IMHO you really need to calm down about Islam

There Is an issue but overstating it serves only to help them achieve their aim of "terrorising" us. I am not in terror you may be. DOnt let them win.

If Christians where causing a terrorist threat I'd do all I could to root it out and expose it - zero tolerance. I am absolutely appalled at how the Catholic Church...

What did you do to root out and expose the Christian bigots (on both sides) engaging in terrorism at that time?

I've only glimpsed at this thread out of a sense of morbid fascination, but this, this is brilliant:

"I thought he was a red sea pedestrian and proud of it?"

Much of the rest of it, however, is deeply unedifying.

@kona IMHO religion had prerty much zero to do with the Troubles. I never heard of anyone quoting religious doctrine and differences as their motivation. IRA wanted to blow me up as I was British, it was an Irish v British thing. Protestants tended to be pro Union, Catholics against or neutral ?

@vickypea - there are many ways we could choose how to organise ourselves as a society...it isn't just capatalism or communism...however the most powerful in society like your response because it scares everyone from challenging the (unequal) status quo...

religion had prerty much zero to do with the Troubles

You did sod all in the Troubles to fight terrorism, and yet you said you were highly focused on it, and you expect ordinary Muslims to "root out and expose" terrorists.

@Yunki great movie, however you'll have to help us out with the meaning as it looks like two guys calling a random passer by a racist making them the racists ? IMO the worst Muslim extremists are the recent converts many of whom are ethnically caucasian.

@kona as I said troubles where not religiously motivated so there was no one at mass to speak to. I was focused on it in terms of avoiding public places, being used to having taxi/car stopped at roadside in the "ring of steel", colleagues impacted by bomb blasts (eg Aldwych). Compare that to the ViceNews piece I posted, overt and organised preaching of extremist views.

THe troubles were not truly a religious issue but it very short sighted to pretend it had nothing to do with it either

Expecting ordinary muslims to flush them out makes the assumption that terrorists wander around telling all and sundry that they are terrorists. Ordinary Muslims dont know terrorists just Like the ordinary catholic Jamby did not know the IRA.

Actually everyone in the communities in Ireland knew who the terrorists were and largely remained silent/did not co operate- unlike now. Muslims just dont know who they are anymore than I know who the animal rights activists are who will blow shit up just because I am vegan. I cannot "flush them out" neither can ordinary Muslims.

Much of the rest of it, however, is deeply unedifying

calling a random passer by a racist making them the racists

yeah interesting that hey? 🙂

Touche, I assumed that was your point.

@JY my assertion supported by videos like the one above filmed by ViceNews in Luton i(not exactly "underground/covert") that a significant minority of UK Muslims are exposed to such extreme views

Capitalism. Growth of world population. Something is going "right" here ?

Statement from Asad Shah's killer

"My client Mr Tanveer Ahmed has specifically instructed me that today, 6 April 2016, to issue this statement to the press, the statement is in the words of my client.

"This all happened for one reason and no other issues and no other intentions.

"Asad Shah disrespected the messenger of Islam the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. Mr Shah claimed to be a Prophet.

"When 1400 years ago the Prophet of Islam Muhammad peace be upon him has clearly said that 'I am the final messenger of Allah there is no more prophets or messengers from God Allah after me.

"'I am leaving you the final Quran. There is no changes. It is the final book of Allah and this is the final completion of Islam. There is no more changes to it and no one has the right to claim to be a Prophet or to change the Quran or change Islam.'

"It is mentioned in the Quran that there is no doubt in this book no one has the right to disrespect the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and no one has the right to disrespect the Prophet of Islam Muhammad Peace be upon him.

"If I had not done this others would and there would have been more killing and violence in the world.

"I wish to make it clear that the incident was nothing at all to do with Christianity or any other religious beliefs even although I am a follower of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him I also love and respect Jesus Christ."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-35976958

The statement of a simpleton, essentially.

Enjoy jail, ya fud.

Not often I'm left speechless. Simply staggering statement.

What the original reports of Mr Shah's tragic and horrific murder failed to mention was that he was an Ahmadi Muslim.

I have met and talked to Ahmadi Muslims (they have a mosque in Croydon) and they have told me of the persecution they face in ****stan - they would be killed for practicing their religion, they claimed.

Indeed Ahmadi Muslims are officially persecuted in ****stan - legally and constitutionally.

From Wikipedia :

[i]For the five million Ahmadis, religious persecution has been particularly severe and systematic in ****stan, which is the only state to have officially declared that Ahmadis are non-Muslims. ****stani laws prohibit the Ahmadis from identifying themselves as Muslims, and their freedom of religion has been curtailed by a series of ordinances, Acts and constitutional amendments. When applying for a ****stani passport, ****stanis are required to declare that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was an impostor prophet and his followers are non-Muslims.

As a result, persecution and hate-related incidents are regularly reported from different parts of the country. Ahmadis have been the target of many violent attacks by various religious groups in ****stan[/i]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis#****stan

In this context the brutal murder of Mr Shah isn't that surprising. Violence and murder is the inevitable consequence of bigotry and religious intolerance. "Bigotry leads to hate crimes shocka"

And precisely why bigotry and religious intolerance should always be opposed and confronted. A point apparently lost on some people on here.

Btw despite the ****stan's government brutal persecution of those who displease it they enjoy excellent bilateral relations with UK governments :

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/britains-relationship-with-****stan-is-here-to-stay

In keeping with enduring Western hypocrisy UK governments like to lecture foreign governments which don't serve their interests, while conveniently turning a blind eye and ignoring brutality committed by foreign governments who do serve UK interests.

And precisely why bigotry and religious intolerance should always be opposed and confronted.

You are quite right what you say about Ahmadis being persecuted. In ****stan they are banned from calling themselbes Muslims something I learnt today from the BBC report

I doubt you'll find a person here more tolerant of all religions than me.

I think it's probably fair to say that I show more religious tolerance than you.

Your "religious tolerance" record is somewhat let down by your constant verbal attacks on Muslims.

I doubt you'll find a person here more tolerant of all religions than me.

Oh I bet there's many.

Hope this idea doesn't catch on, can you imagine what would happen if the protestants and catholics were to fall out in some way?

Or if the Muslims got a football team?

I doubt you'll find a person here more tolerant of all religions than me. If people wish to live under strict Sharia law they are free to do so, there are many countries where they can do that.

If only it was that simple - all the people who want to live under a repressive system of laws where women are oppressed and children are indoctrinated can sod off to live by themselves. That'd be great.

In reality, millions of people are trapped in these places against their will. If religious tolerance means ignoring them, then I guess I'm not tolerant.

troubles where not religiously motivated so there was no one at mass to speak to. I was focused on it in terms of avoiding public places, being used to having taxi/car stopped at roadside in the "ring of steel", colleagues impacted by bomb blasts (eg Aldwych).

You claimed you were "very focused" on IRA terrorism but that seems to consist in reality of minor traffic inconvenience, and less of an impact than millions of other (actual) Londoners.

To be fair I'd say that religious tolerance is clearly one of Jambaliar's better qualities. Along with self-awareness and a keen sense of irony. Oh, and rooting out extremism, obviously.