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Firstly, whenever a Muslim commits an appalling crime there is a tendency to emphasize the fact that they are Muslim. In contrast when a crime is committed by a christian or an atheist, for example, there is usually little emphasizes on their beliefs.
In the same way that only one of these was labeled as terrorism, the others were just mass shootings or normal law breaking...
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/456893
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/423223
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/359830http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-04/militiamen-seize-us-government-buildings-reports/7065464
Firstly, whenever a Muslim commits an appalling crime there is a tendency to emphasize the fact that they are Muslim.
No there isn't. For example the Rotherham accused were almost always being described as of Asian origin when Muslim would have been more accurate. They weren't Sikh or Hindu they were Muslim.
As for terrorist attacks - mentioning the fact they are Muslim is relevant when that religion is a motivating factor in the atrocity concerned.
Firstly, whenever a Muslim commits an appalling crime there is a tendency to emphasize the fact that they are Muslim.
No there isn't. For example the Rotherham accused were almost always being described as of Asian origin when Muslim would have been more accurate. They weren't Sikh or Hindu they were Muslim.
Seeks to disprove point by proving point. I'm confused. Moreso by what their religion had to do with the fact that they were paedophiles (beyond sharing a common denominator), I don't see the religious preferences of Savile et al being called into question.
Muslim death in the news and Jambalaya all over it like a pig in shit... Surprise, surprise...
"Firstly, whenever a Muslim commits an appalling crime there is a tendency to emphasize the fact that they are Muslim."No there isn't. For example the Rotherham accused.......
Are you seriously suggesting that there was little attempt to emphasize that they were Muslim? That's remarkable. Did you eventually find out after reading extensively about the case?
As an aside it seems the murderer was a Bradford Uber driver. Uber have said he passed all driver screening including "enhanced" criminal bureau checks
Unfortunately those background checks don't ask if you base your entire life decisions around a make believe man in the sky.
It doesn't matter if it's Christianity, Judaism, Islam or whatever particular fairy story someone believes in, religion is just awful.
@boarding "man in the sky" has no relevance here at all
@benny and your point is ? My point is that this is I believe the first overtly sectarian Muslim on Muslim murder I am aware of. This is relevant due to the many 100'000s of similar such sectarian murders in the past 10 years in the Middle East. What I worry about is that spreading to the UK where we have many Muslims living perfectly happily and contributing positively to our spciety who risk being the victims of a small group of fanatics
@boarding "man in the sky" has no relevance here at all
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Globalization for you- You can't import people to pick asparagus cheaply(or drive cabs) without importing their deranged ideology.
What I worry about is that spreading to the UK
The UK already has sectarian violence. does that keep you up at night as well?
Or get rid of the locals who also are a murdering bastards, the UK has a fair amount here doing more damage and killing people.
On average a woman is murdered by her current or former partner every 3 days in England and Wales, overwhelmingly in the christian/atheist community, not the "Islamic community"Bad people exist everywhere shocka.
Great, but provide the per 100,000 rates of spousal homicide within communities of different religious persuasions, then control for it and various other factors like domestic abuse support, and then finally...we can talk.
Did you know that far more men are killed by their spouses in Cornwall? Why is that?
Great, but provide the per 100,000 rates of spousal homicide within communities of different religious persuasions, then control for it, and then finally...we can talk.
Why don't you do it? You obviously think it's significant.
I dunno, Cornwall's got quite high deprivation rates. You could infer something from that probably
Why don't you do it? You obviously think it's significant.
I think that most religions are, if not responsibile for humanities general culture of misogyny, at least responsible for legitamizing it and carrying it on longer than it needs to.
Islam just gets a bashing from all quaters including non-skinhead atheists because it's the most vocal religion left in the western world, Christianity is on the way out - so doesn't cop as much flak.
And yes, I might.
I don't know any non-religious text thumping mates that want a "good woman" who "respects me, bro". Like I've heard from so many other quarters. Most religious texts are awful pieces of work, they and their followers wouldn't be defended nearly as much if those texts didn't have the label "religion" ascribed to them.
The UK already has sectarian violence. does that keep you up at night as well?
As someone who worked in London throughout the active IRA campaign I am pretty focused on such violence and for years modified by behnaviour to minimise risk. It doesn't matter to them I'm Catholic too.
@ernie domestic violence is something every society has to deal with, we will sadly never eradicate it. I feel quite differently about terrorism. Someone isn't going to blow me and dozens of others up on the bus to work because they don't get on with their wife.
As someone who worked in London throughout the active IRA campaign
No you didn't.
Some bizarre whataboutery trying to excuse the inexcusable on here...
@ernie domestic violence is something every society has to deal with, we will sadly never eradicate it. I feel quite differently about terrorism. Someone isn't going to blow me and dozens of others up on the bus to work because they don't get on with their wife.
You are far, far more likely to be killed by your partner or ex-partner than a terrorist. A female homicide ictim is more than six times more likely to have been killed by a partner or ex-partner than a male murder victim. Perhaps you feel quite differently about terrorism because you perceive yourself to be at greater risk from it than domestic violence?
Someone isn't going to blow me and dozens of others up on the bus to work
FTFY.
Violence in general isn't even in the top 10 causes of death.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs310/en/index1.html
Five people killed on UK roads every day. That worries me a bit more than terrorism, to be honest.
Five people killed on UK roads every day. That worries me a bit more than terrorism, to be honest.
Though the families of road accident victims don't need to be warned by the police to be careful what they say in order to protect their security.
Christianity is on the way out.
Oh no its not !
Take a trip to West Africa(random example) maybe you could do a six [s]month[/s] year sabbatical in a lab in the bush, then come back and tell us all about it
Take a trip to West Africa(random example) maybe you could do a six month year sabbatical in a lab in the bush, then come back and tell us all about it
.....in the west.
My anti-colonialist leanings mean that I don't really care for preaching about Christianity in Africa, they're more than capable of learning the hard way like we did
Having said that, things like white missionaries going to places such as Papua New Guinea makes me livid with rage.
wilburt - Member
Some bizarre whataboutery trying to excuse the inexcusable on here...
Nobody is excusing murder, just not joining the slightly rabid bandwagon linking this to the end of the western world and the import of the problems of the middle east.
Graphs everyone loves a graph.
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So far from what it was.
Christianity has almost 50% more followers than Islam.
Drac - ModeratorGraphs everyone loves a graph.
So far from what it was.
Crikey, that's the worst abuse of a graph I have seen. 🙄
C'mon! Correlate this ...
Minimum of 12 stones.
Friday & Saturday night out
GeordieLand!
Ya, if you are less than 12 stones on a night out in GeordieLand you get deck! GeordieLand style ... 😆
That's not how it is, you can have compassion for people whilst pointing out their behaviour and belief's are both wrong and unacceptable.
Calling an ideology religion doesn't make it acceptable and whilst Islam may not be the only problem we have that doesnt mean it isnt a problem.
Calling an ideology religion doesn't make it acceptable and whilst Islam may not be the only problem we have that doesnt mean it isnt a problem.
That's an entirely valid point... it's all too easy to completely dismiss it as either scaremongering tactics of the media, or prejudice, but the truth is, there is extreme elements of Islam (as there is with Christianity and Judaism).
To overcome the problems all these religious nutters cause, we have to look at who is furthering their cause, which is often easiest to identify through funding*...
*Cough: Saudi Arabia, Israel, USA
Who is allies with such regimes?
Calling an ideology religion doesn't make it acceptable and whilst Islam may not be the only problem we have that doesnt mean it isnt a problem.
This is one case in the UK, we still don't know much about the mental state of the killer, or some more of the facts obviously. There are 2 parts here one a single case doesn't tell you anything it could be isolated, the first of thousands or actually nothing related to what you think. Secondly is the bit there where "I'm not racist buts" kick off with all the usual crap.
@Drac my argument would be that the terrorist problems of the 1970s 80's and 90's have been dealt with. The very real threat facing us today from Islamic extremism is greater than any other terrorist threat we have ever faced. Just look at the last 18 months, also Brits shot on the beach in Tunisia is just as much of a problem as people killed in Paris or Brussels.
Yeah they have been 'dealt' with most stopped such as the IRA but is Islam a greater threat. It appears not no but when they have attacked it has been with greater effect. Certainly the figures aren't as bad as we had in 70s and 80s when IRA attacks were pretty much weekly.
I think this demonstrates the risk of Scotland not having control of its own borders due to British Union laws. We are powerless to stop foreign lunatics engaging in acts of terrorism.
Graphs everyone loves a graph.
If we want to band shit misleading statistics around, now weight the graph for percentage demographics.... 😆
I think this demonstrates the risk of Scotland not having control of its own borders due to British Union laws. We are powerless to stop foreign lunatics engaging in acts of terrorism.
Building a wall around Yorkshire would be better.
Make sure it's water tight 5thElefant
Police Scotland just released this statement from the family
Following the death of Asad Shah in Minard Road, Shawlands, on Thursday 24 March 2016, his family have asked us to release this statement on their behalf:
On Thursday evening (24th March), a beloved husband, son, brother and everyone’s friend, Asad Shah, was taken away from us by an incomprehensible act. We are devastated by this loss.
A person’s religion, ethnicity, race, gender or socioeconomic background never mattered to Asad. He met everyone with the utmost kindness and respect because those are just some of the many common threads that exist across every faith in our world. He was a brilliant man, recognising that the differences between people are vastly outweighed by our similarities. And he didn’t just talk about this, he lived it each and every day, in his beloved community of Shawlands and his country of Scotland.
If there was to be any consolation from this needless tragedy, it came in the form of the spontaneous and deeply moving response by the good people of Shawlands, Glasgow and beyond. As a family, we would like to express our deepest gratitude to all who have organised and participated in the street vigils, online petitions and messages. You have moved us beyond words and helped us start healing sooner than we thought possible. You were Asad’s family as much as we are and we will always remain with you.
One of our brightest lights has been extinguished but our love for all mankind and hope for a better world in which we can all live in peace and harmony, as so emphatically embodied by Asad, will endure and prevail. Asad left us a tremendous gift and we must continue to honour that gift by loving and taking care of one another.
We will not be making any further comments on this tragedy and ask everyone, especially the media, to allow us the privacy we need to grieve and heal away from the public eye.
With deepest appreciation,
The Shah Family
Thanks for posting @Boarding
He indeed sounds like a role model for all of us in the UK
@Drac IRA was focused on casuing commercial damage in the UK plus sectarian murder in NI. Suicide bombing and the Kalishnikov style attacks are imo a very much greater threat. Aren't most / many of the deaths in that table a result of Spanish seperatists ?
That's not at all an accurate description of the IRA's activity during the period of the graph: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Great_Britain
I thought you were in London during the height, they certainly targeted people.
Yes marquading territoriests are a significant threat but so is bombing. Yes some of those will be Spanish separatists but that's the point, to date Islam extremists is far smaller than previous territorist attacks.
He indeed sounds like a role model for all of us in the UK
I'm sure he'd be delighted at you using his death to fear-monger and demonise Muslims.
konabunny - Member
I think this demonstrates the risk of Scotland not having control of its own borders due to British Union laws. We are powerless to stop foreign lunatics engaging in acts of terrorism.
Aye, we need a wall to keep all those foreign lunatics down south where they belong.
I thought you were in London during the height, they certainly targeted people.Yes marquading territoriests are a significant threat but so is bombing. Yes some of those will be Spanish separatists but that's the point, to date Islam extremists is far smaller than previous territorist attacks.
Name me one IRA attack that killed 150 civilians in a gun rampage?
Not only were there, and are far more white people in Europe to kill each other on a regular basis - hence the higher numbers but for example... IRA attacks were more likely to be directed at hard targets and the establishment, civilians were targeted to a lesser extent in terms of percentage of attacks.
Likely the only thing actually limiting Islamic terrorism from totally eclipsing the IRA is operational capability. The IRA built up such big numbers by the sheer volume of their attacks. They had a shit tonne of weapons from WW2 and guns smuggled to Ireland by American sympathisers, they had a lot of ex military men. They had the backing of a large part of the Irish peoples, were allowed to exist by the Republic of Ireland and had money flowing in from the States. Not to mention that the IRA had clear and limited political goals, where as the goal of ISIS is to retake Al-Andalus. In the UK, ISIS is currently reliant on mostly homegrown, poorly funded idiots, this will change given time.
Personally, I agree with Tony Blair 👿 if we let this carry on and let ISIS gain a long term stronghold - it's simply a matter of time before a European city gets irradiated or glassed by a bucket of instant sunshine.
I consider myself a lefty - but the left is going to have it's massive smirk wiped off it's stupid face at some point in time.
IRA attacks were more likely to be directed at hard targets and the establishmen
Like pubs and shopping centres 🙄
Name me one IRA attack that killed 150 civilians in a gun rampage?
Ah! So it's all about single events.
I see the thread for Islamaphobes is still going strong....
Pretty much yes - it conveys intention - the IRA could have killed thousands in a single attack, they didn't because they actually had tangible and achievable political aims. I'll say it again, weight the graph you posted for Europes 6 percent Muslim demographic and watch the graph change and then take into account the fact that ISIS will never achieve their political objectives (destabilisation of Europe) without resorting to ever larger attacks.
The longer we wait, the higher the casualties will be in an attempt to draw us into a ground war and unify their own people against us instead of them. We might as well just get on with it sooner than later, it's simply inevitable unless you think that waiting for thousands of our own civilians to die is an acceptable loss to comfort your own ideological viewpoints.
I don't think it's a coincidence that the attacks have increased since we stopped keeping them occupied in their own backyards.
I don't think it's a coincidence that the attacks have increased since we stopped keeping them occupied in their own backyards.
Oh for ****s sake.
That;s exactly what I think about your viewpoint Drac.
Got any better solutions, apart from swearing?
Wow.
I'm truly lost for words.
Wow.
Well it worked, didn't it. AQ got so holed up in Afghanistan, they couldn't do anything in the west for almost a decade.
'm truly lost for words.
Okay, put a figure on how many people need to die in terrorist incidents for you to deem forcibly removing ISIS from their stronghold, acceptable?
Is that the Brussels stronghold where the last attackers backyard was?
Some of who'm travelled and trained and fought in Syria.
And Drac, let me clarify my position a bit - the more bombings and more refugees we get, the greater the rise of the far right in Europe. You will see more images of muslims being beaten by police at borders, more attacks on Muslims in the streets and this will invariably legitimise ISIS as they go about using that for propaganda. It's a zero sum game for us, unless that is, we help secure and rebuild a country that is fit for people to return to - like we failed to do by ducking out early the first time around.
Before you make the point, "oh well, that will radicalise more Muslims" - take a look at your graph and note the years when we were occupying Iraq. Didn't illicit much of a homegrown reaction did it?
@Drac yes I was in London at the height and the bombings there focused on destroying property and creating disruption as the IRA used codewords to give warnings so evacuations could take place. Yes they bombed pubs like the one in Guildford which was frequented by soldiers as it was opposite the bus stop from Aldershot. Yes some of the attacks where aimed at civilians but they where not the modus operandi. The nature of he Islamist threat Al-Q / IS or rogue indivudal is very different and more similar to the Spanish separatists who focused on mass murder
It is strange how people here seek to divert attention from the topic under discussion via sweeping misrepresentations like "Islamophobia" and "demonising Muslims". Its a minority of the 2 billion Muslims worldwide who are responsible for the greatest terrorist threat we have ever faced. Whether that minority is 1%, 5%, 10% I don't know.
[quote=jambalaya ] Its a minority of the 2 billion Muslims worldwide who are responsible for the greatest terrorist threat we have ever faced. Whether that minority is 1%, 5%, 10% I don't know.If it was even 1% you'd know.
It is strange how people here seek to divert attention from the topic under discussion via sweeping misrepresentations like "Islamophobia" and "demonising Muslims". Its a minority of the 2 billion Muslims worldwide who are responsible for the greatest terrorist threat we have ever faced. Whether that minority is 1%, 5%, 10% I don't know.
It's one Murder Jamby, 1. 1 murderer in this case so talk of something we need to stop is very premature.
It's so much smaller than a minority it's just about insignificant, if we catagorised all murders by motive it would probably make for some interesting reading. For instance in the good old US whats the count for having the wrong skin colour? Or in the UK for not doing what your told woman.
Now seems as good a time as any to post this again.
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On the plus side, I'm warming to Drac, despite previous run ins
Before you make the point, "oh well, that will radicalise more Muslims" - take a look at your graph and note the years when we were occupying Iraq. Didn't illicit much of a homegrown reaction did it?
You have to think of it in terms of feedback loops there immediate retaliation is unlikely, especially if the same propaganda is being promoted by the government installed by Western intervention... only once attrocities have been comitted, kids orphaned have grown up and the shock, fear and pain has tempered into hatred, will the backlash come into play.
Then of course there's the false flag scenario, which given modus operandi of Stay Behind Networks in the mould of NATO's Operation Gladio, are unfortunately all too likely.
Though the families of road accident victims don't need to be warned by the police to be careful what they say in order to protect their security.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12205279/Murdered-Muslim-shopkeepers-family-fear-for-their-lives.html
Though the families of victims face the same threat from road traffic incidents, don't they?
Referring back to an earlier post (sorry) I am not sure that describing the shopkeeper as ****stani is really such a bad thing. It was not being used in a derogatory fashion - to jump on that as a bad thing is loaded with assumptions about ****stanis, if you follow my logic. It was relevant in this context as the crime was said to be related to the person's ethnicity and religion.
I think about this a lot - I am a Kiwi. I have lived in Scotland for 20 years. If I hit the news I would have no problem being described as a Kiwi, I am proud to be a Kiwi. I would in fact be miffed to be described as a Scot.
This sits alongside what feels like continual confrontation of people who make nasty remarks about immigrants in front of me (including people I have known for many years). It never occurs to them that I might fall into the category of people they are unhappy with, because I am white and English is my first language.
Just some thoughts.
don't think it's a coincidence that the attacks have increased since we stopped keeping them occupied in their own backyards.
Quite the opposite.
The current rash of bombings and shootings in Europe by Daesh are the result of desperation, because they are being defeated and beaten back in their stronghold in Northern Iraq/Syria..
Muslims worldwide who are responsible for the greatest terrorist threat we have ever faced.
Classic Jambyfact
Even the torygraph says you are completely wrong
Using ridiculous hyperbole to demonise the religion, sounds like Islamaphobia to me
That really is just so stupid. There are MILLIONS of Muslims "worldwide" and the percentage of those who could be labelled "Muslims from Planet Earth" who are committed to violent Jihad is so tiny it could barely be measured. Jambalaya is.... wrong.
Before you make the point, "oh well, that will radicalise more Muslims"
Don't worry I wasn't going to make that claim.
So, if the IRA were so kind to ring up with a code word why were there so many people killed?
So nice of them to bomb Harrods Christmas shoppers, I take it that's where the army shop.
Muslims worldwide who are responsible for the greatest terrorist threat we have ever faced. Whether that minority is 1%, 5%, 10% I don't know.
You suggest that 10% of the 1 billion+ muslims in the world might be responsible for Islamic terrorism but you're definitely not prejudiced against muslims. 😆
Around 10,000+ gun killings per year in the USA, largely by Christians, I guess, and most of them able to travel freely to Europe. Sounds pretty scary.
Quite the opposite.The current rash of bombings and shootings in Europe by Daesh are the result of desperation, because they are being defeated and beaten back in their stronghold in Northern Iraq/Syria..
"The Syrian state still does not have enough military resources to score an outright victory against both ISIL and the other Syrian rebels in the near term, even with the residual Russian forces remaining."
So what they will do, is carry out a concerted campaign of terrorism and division in the hopes of bringing in more recruits. Not to mention the fact that if we are seen to be supporting Assad, that will radicalise more moderate Muslims who loathe Assad even more than they do western intervention. I know and have heard from quite a few Syrians that were more pissed about us not intervening, than anything else we'd done.
The head of the snake needs cutting off as ISIS' propaganda capability is reliant on it being seen as a state, whilst we actually have support from sections of the Syrian and Iraqi community. Then the UN needs to step in and help to rebuild the country. It cannot become a stateless vacuum with "Here be dragons" stamped over the area on maps. Hosting millions of refugees here is simply a case of treating the symptoms as opposed to the cause, something which the nihilistic left seems happy to do.
I know and have heard from quite a few Syrians that were more pissed about us not intervening, than anything else we'd done.
Are some of them your best friends?
Are some of them your best friends?
Very funny, but try taking a look at some of the debate surrounding intervention within the well educated Syrian/Iraqi/Iranian community.
Again, the left has no answers apart from platitudes and smart alec nihilism - the toxic shock it's suffering from the Tony years has made it utterly incapable of deciding on any course of action that might actually solve the crisis.
🙂
Newsflash everyone, we already have planes and special forces in the area. The people who are going to hate us for intervening, hate us already. Why not actually take responsibility for the mess we created by occupying the area in the first place - and then leaving early before the job was actually done.
Yes some of the attacks where aimed at civilians but they where not the modus operandi.
So you're saying apart from the IRA's sustained campaign of bombing civilians, it wasn't their modus operandi? o_O
yes I was in London at the height
Heh - that's a bit of a shift from what you said earlier.
well if Jamby looks like a [blank]
sounds like a [blank]
it probably is a [blank]
@grum I don't know what the correct number is but my assertion is that its a lot higher than many people will acknowledge.
@mike as a minimum I think 90% of Muslims are not radicalised so clearly I'm a supporter, no ? The most populist Muslim country is Indonesia and they don't see to be causing the West a problem do they ? I want to see the substantial Muslim population we have in the uk enjoy all the benefits of this fantastic country. Those that aren't interested, be they British citizens or not can go elsewhere, somewhere that better supports their lifestyle aspirations
@kona - shift in what way ? My assertion is the ira's primary objective was to cause commercial damage and disruption, secondary was to target the military and thirdly civilians
Those that aren't interested, be they British citizens or not can go elsewhere, somewhere that better supports their lifestyle aspirations
What are the acceptable lifestyle aspirations one needs to have to be allowed to remain in the UK?
On the Scottish or ****stani thing, his family's statement says:
He was a brilliant man, recognising that the differences between people are vastly outweighed by our similarities. And he didn't just talk about this, he lived it each and every day, in his beloved community of Shawlands and [u]his country of Scotland[/u].
@ben as far as I am concerned he was a role model British citizen
Lifestyle aspirations, to live in the UK you should support British values and accept the rule of law.
Don't tell me failing to do so will result in transportation to the colonies?
Holy crap! You ARE Nigel Farage and I claim my five pounds. Gawd save the queen, glass of white for the lady etc etc...to live in the UK you should support British values...
What even are [i]British[/i] values? I strongly suspect you mean white middle class male values, personally...