[Closed] UK's first Muslim Sectarian Murder ?

pretty sure the shop keeper was Scottish.

poah - Member
pretty sure the shop keeper was Scottish.

I'd say his point was that Jambaliar called him a ****stani shopkeeper. As for points, I'm struggling to see one in the OP.

Is is a real shame. The shop keeper seems to have been very popular in the area. Much loved by those that frequented his shop. 🙁

Media hype. Lots of people who share a belief/religion with their killers have been killed through the years. Story is just to sell papers and ad space, relies on the limited knowledge and racial stereotypes of the ones who fall for this guff.

[quote=poah said]pretty sure the shop keeper was Scottish.

No he was ****stani.

Over the weekend tributes have continued to flood in for the shopkeeper, who moved from ****stan to Scotland in the 1990s

He embraced Scotland and Glasgow. He was so proud to be a Glaswegian and so loyal to the city

****stani born but if he thought of himself as Scottish that's good enough for me.

Funny story about him; he refused to sell alcohol. Not for religious reasons but so that all the bams would shop elsewhere. 🙂

Thoroughly well liked in the community and a real loss.

unknown - Member
I'd say his point was that Jambaliar called him a ****stani shopkeeper. As for points, I'm struggling to see one in the OP.

Jamby is right you know, bloody Muslims, if only we could have peace in the Holy Land on Easter...

Why can't they just let Israel expand in peace?

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Then again...

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This is a new record: 10 posts in and apparently it's Mossad that's responsible for some scumbag murdering a shopkeeper.

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Wowsers a lot of hate for OP here.

Surely muslim on muslim killing is new in the UK? And worthy of comment (for non Jamba haters)?

This is a new record: 10 posts in and apparently it's Mossad that's responsible for some scumbag murdering a shopkeeper.

Makes you [s]despair[/s] think.....

Hope this idea doesn't catch on, can you imagine what would happen if the protestants and catholics were to fall out in some way?

I thought so when I first heard the news. No surprise there.

I thought he made the mistake by trying to greet others (faiths) during the festive season, worst still he posted it on the interweb! His action was perceived as attempting to integrate.

Not good because integration means diluting their belief bits by bits and they do not like that.

mrsfry - Member
Media hype. Lots of people who share a belief/religion with their killers have been killed through the years. Story is just to sell papers and ad space, relies on the limited knowledge and racial stereotypes of the ones who fall for this guff.

Really! Ya ... right ... 😆

Are you trying to calm everyone down? 😛

How many explanations can you come up with? 😆

That is a very poor attempt at trying to rationalise an event you know. 😮

Surely muslim on muslim killing is new in the UK?

I haven't seen him reported as being Scottish anywhere, I used ****stani as that's how the BBC decribed him. He could well be a British passport holder, I don't know. That is however irrelevant to the story imo, the point is we have one Muslim who has apparently travelled 200 miles to stab another Muslim to death for having differing religious views.

The Guardian article doesn't call him ****stani. His brother said he was a "proud Glaswegian". So I think we can definitely say he was Scottish - just not by birth, but who cares about that?

I haven't seen him reported as being Scottish anywhere

The schoolgirl who was murdered in Clydebank recently wasn't specifically described as Scottish either.

mrsfry - Member
Media hype. Lots of people who share a belief/religion with their killers have been killed through the years. Story is just to sell papers and ad space, relies on the limited knowledge and racial stereotypes of the ones who fall for this guff.

I seriously doubt anyone would consider calling me a Geordie even though I am more than 12 stones. 😛

jambalaya - Member
That is however irrelevant to the story imo, the point is we have one Muslim who has apparently travelled 200 miles to stab another Muslim to death for having differing religious views.

bencooper - Member

The Guardian article doesn't call him ****stani. His brother said he was a "proud Glaswegian". So I think we can definitely say he was Scottish - just not by birth, but who cares about that?

Might as well call him a Pict or a Scot. 🙄

They are trying to integrate by calling themselves "proud Glaswegian" but their own people might not allow that ...

Wonder who funds the mosques that preach extremism and hatred...
[url= http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/11/wahhabism-isis-how-saudi-arabia-exported-main-source-global-terrorism ]
Wahhabism to ISIS: how Saudi Arabia exported the main source of global terrorism[/url]

[img] http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/prince-harry-queen-elizabeth-ll-and-hrh-prince-al-waleed-bin-talal-picture-id52115204 [/img]

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jivehoneyjive

Bow to the Queen!

Long live the Queen!

😛

Sectarianism? In Glasgow? Surely not!.

In other news - JHJ is brilliant! Carry on sir....

Rothschild's. Look no further.

Me na respeck dem babylon

Rothschild's. Look no further.

I agree. The '82 is a delight.

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Makes you thi[s]nk[/s]rsty.

Blimey, even got a pic of whatsherface galavanting around in a party frock on the bottle...

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@jive is just embarrased as his Westminster peopdophile ring was proven to be a total fantasy with not a shred of evidence and his "well respected journalist" could well be sued by an abuse victim.

@ben whether he is Scottish isn't the point - Scot murdered by Muslim isn"t the issue and potentially makes the crime seem racially motivated. What we have here is Muslim sectarian violence against a man who by all accounts is a credit to his religion, his countries (UK and ****stan) and his family. His open and welcoming religion and his efforts to live it every day have resulted in another Muslim (also ****stani ?) travelling 200 miles to murder him.

Well it's a known fact that a christian has never murdered another christian so these people must be wild animals

200 miles? How far is it from the Republic of Ireland to London?

Having a balanced discusion about the Islamification of Britain is impossible when some people just cannot get past stage one- that any criticism is racism.

I knew a copper who took early retirement and moved to Scotland 20 years ago because of what was happening in South Yorkshire, talking to me at the time he said he just go do anything about it if you said anything you were branded a racist. The social worker whistleblower said the same and nearly lost her family and liberty for the same reason.

When something is beyond critism, extremism will develop.

Could it possible be that there is something about this religion thats not very pleasant and should be challanged?

[quote=wilburt ]Could it possible be that there is something about this religion thats not very pleasant and should be challanged?Christianity? Yep. And a few folk on this forum are forever pointing it out.

It's integration, innit?

Glaswegian sectarian attitudes adopted by Muslims and "improved".

Poor chap. As far as we are concerned if he identified as Scottish, he's Scottish. RIP.

jambalaya - Member

the point is we have one Muslim who has apparently travelled 200 miles to stab another Muslim to death for having differing religious views.

Key word being "one"- it's newsworthy because it's completely unique. Not something the UK's dominant religion can claim. So good job, muslims! Setting a fine example, the country would be much better off if other cults could match it.

You do realize a vast and horrific Sunni/Shia war has erupted in recent years over much of the middle east?

So I don't think Islam has much to teach protestants/Catholics about not murdering each other right now.

This happened round the corner from me. Would often pop into his shop. There has been a real genuine outpouring of grief in the community.

Regardless of the motivation, a good man has been murdered and has left a devastated family and community behind.

Forum smart arse point scoring isn't needed...

This happened round the corner from me. Would often pop into his shop. There has been a real genuine outpouring of grief in the community.

Regardless of the motivation, a good man has been murdered and has left a devastated family and community behind.

Forum smart arse point scoring isn't needed...

^^This^^

Surely muslim on muslim killing is new in the UK?

I'd be very surprised if it was

There have certainly been "honour killings".

Which are not sectarian. The post title asked whether this was the UK's first Muslim sectarian murder. So far nobody has pointed to another one.

Not good because integration means diluting their belief bits by bits and they do not like that

But if they do not like it why did they do it?

CharlieMungus - Member

Not good because integration means diluting their belief bits by bits and they do not like that

But if they do not like it why did they do it?

The moderate ones underestimated the situation of their community and belief.

Sounds like he was a good person who will be much missed. Sympathies to his family.

If the story is as it reads, how very sad. That someone wanting to adapt a little to his surroundings should lose his life for his troubles. I know people don't generally like "change", and some more than others, but a bit of tolerance wouldn't go amiss.

Ah!some of them are like that

a bit like getting done over by skinheads or NF or britain furst or summink..

poor bastard

So one nutter decided to kill someone, it does seem to be playing on the sectarian card a lot there for effect more than anything. Especially considering the level of sectarian violence and hatred in Glasgow.

Yesterday a number of friends posted links suggesting it had been a sectarian killing by another Muslim unhappy that the shop keeper had posted a message on Facebook wishing all his Christian customers a happy Easter

First of all define sectarianism. It seems it was Muslim on Muslim violence and if one of the them was Sunni and one Shia then maybe it was. However as the perpetrator was found laughing whilst sitting on the victims bleeding chest it appears he may have been just plain mental. Now whether religion played a part or gave him the excuse is another question.

@Boardingbob well said.

I think this is quite different to the honour killings which go on, those are appalling but fit a more normal format for murders where the victim/perpetrator know each other. This appears to be entirely religously motivated due to differences in what is true Islam.

@upon I imagine he was laughing as he believed he had done a great thing, clealry unbalanced but you can say that about any suicide bomber or someone that cuts the heads off fellow Muslims

@mike I pointed out the killer had travelled 200 miles not least as its shows its not "classic" inter Glaswegian sectarianism

clealry unbalanced but you can say that about any suicide bomber or someone that cuts the heads off fellow Muslims

CountZero - Member
poah - Member
pretty sure the shop keeper was Scottish.

Your point being, caller?
Clearly failing to understand the basic difference between race and religion.

Yes, clearly failing to see that ****stani's are neither a race, or religion.

Utterly brilliant. 😀

BoardinBob - Member
This happened round the corner from me. Would often pop into his shop. There has been a real genuine outpouring of grief in the community.
Regardless of the motivation, a good man has been murdered and has left a devastated family and community behind.
Forum smart arse point scoring isn't needed...

Agreed.

scotroutes - Member
Christianity? Yep. And a few folk on this forum are forever pointing it out.
POSTED 11 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

Its not about who's fairy tale is worse, we've had our wars and and put that nonsense in a box marked optional, we are now importing someone elses problems from a part of the world that is 200 years behind Western Europe.

mikewsmith - Member
...was that how most of the protestant/Catholic sectarian killers behaved?...

Nah, they're yellow-bellied cowards. Usually 10 on 1.

Unfortunately we have seen Muslim on Muslim murders int he UK before. A few years ago a poor girl was murdered by her two brothers and father - stabbed 27 times then her throat cut, in an honour killing because she refused to go ahead with an arranged Marriage. It's not the first time either - not common, but certainly not unheard of in the UK. And that is not to mention the countless girls who run away from home, fearing for their lives as soon as they get wind of their parents arranging a marriage for them.

The problem is that within the Muslim faith there are alot of sects and they are effectively at war with each other - always have been - long before Western interventions. And the issue of mixing up race and religion is not too far away from the truth as in the more extreme sects they see themselves as Muslims first and nationality is not important or relevant - that is why they want an Islamic State. I'm sure in this case the murderer was not concerned if this poor guy was ****stani, Scottish, British or anything, he was just bothered about his more tolerant, moderate form of Islam that he was pushing which was effectively Blasphemy in his eyes.

I've had conversations with some pretty strict Muslims in the UAE when I travelled out there with work - not extremists, but pretty strict - you're talking about people who don't even swallow saliva during Ramadan as it is effectively drinking water and therefore breaking fast. I asked one such work colleague about his views on wishing westerners a Happy Christmas out of mutual respect for another person, as I had no problems giving them cards wishing them Happy Eid, even though I was a Christian (actually an Atheist but I wouldn't have admitted that to them). I was a bit surprised by his answer as he said he wouldn't as it would effectively be acknowledging another religion and in the more strict forms of Islam there is only one religion and acknowledgement of other religions is Blasphemy. So in these extreme sects of Islam there is no room for mutual respect for other religions. So clearly in the case of this terrible murder, in the act of wishing Christians a Happy Easter, the poor victim was effectively committing Blasphemy in the eyes of the more strict Muslims within the community, and of course in the more strict forms of Islam Blasphemy is punishable by death.

Just like to point out that "honour" killings are culturally based, not due to Islamicism.

Carry on.

Very sad story. There have been quite a number of stories about sectarian conflict in the UK Muslim community (primarily Sunni on Shia) in the press over the past year or so, so I don't think this is a new thing:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31691120

Just like to point out that "honour" killings are culturally based, not due to Islamicism.

Really? 🙄

wobbliscott - Member
... - not extremists, but pretty strict - you're talking about people who don't even swallow saliva during ...

So clearly in the case of this terrible murder, in the act of wishing Christians a Happy Easter, the poor victim was effectively committing Blasphemy in the eyes of the more strict Muslims within the community, and of course in the more strict forms of Islam Blasphemy is punishable by death.

This ^^^

As an aside, if the murdered killed the guy because he was insufficiently pious (in the murderer's opinion), I don't think that qualifies as a sectarian murder. Surely a sectarian murder is one where someone is killed because they're a member of another sect?

If Catholic A kills Catholic B for advocating for birth control, that's religiously motivated but not sectarian. But if Catholic A murders Protestant B for being a Protestant, then that is sectarian.

Also, wasn't there an imam killed in a playpark at night in Bradford or something last month? Was that not religiously motivated then? And a Syrian lay preacher type guy killed outside a mosque in west London?

So I don't think Islam has much to teach protestants/Catholics about not murdering each other right now.

Never heard of anyone not swallowing saliva before and neither is it a stipulation if you are fasting. In fact it's quite common to rinse your mouth out with water if it's getting too dry but then someone's always knows someone or who's got a mate that's s bit extreme.

lalazar - Member
Never heard of anyone not swallowing saliva before and neither is it a stipulation if you are fasting. In fact it's quite common to rinse your mouth out with water if it's getting too dry but then someone's always knows someone or who's got a mate that's s bit extreme.

That's your interpretation but not in other parts of the world.

@kona - the definition of sectarian I use (or my understanding of the term) would make this a sectarian murder as both where part of the same overall religion just different branches/sects. FWIW I think tha Catholic/Protestant violence was much more driven by pro/anti British than the religious differences. I would agree that the conviction of Karadich has taken far too long but he was well hidden and protected for many years.

Many Jewish people will not acknowledge Christmas, we sub-let some space from a Jewish owned company and it was a condition of the lease that we did not have a Christmas tree or decorations. However, I very much doubt we would have been murdered had we breached that lease term.

I've never heard of Jewish people not acknowledging Christmas. I've heard of them not celebrating it, though.

(And I wonder whether that term of the lease would be enforceable at law).

Karadzic wasn't well-hidden. He swanned around Republika Srpska for years quite openly before he moved to Belgrade. There was a lack of political will to capture him.

Maybe it's your interpretation chewkw seeing as you were only a kid amongst other kids.

I think I'd make it a condition of a lease not to have Christmas decorations too.

FWIW I think tha Catholic/Protestant violence was much more driven by pro/anti British than the religious differences

lalazar - Member
Maybe it's your interpretation chewkw seeing as you were only a kid amongst other kids.

No, because the interpretation is also consistence amongst certain adults that practice a stricter form of belief there. We have Talib groups or branch in that region too so stricter form of practice is also gaining grounds.

I ain't going to discuss with them what they think is right or wrong so long as they don't impose on me. They can do whatever they like with/to themselves.

Some of these posts sound like over protective parents excusing their errant off spring...but, but, but...you're not helping anyone.

Some of these posts seem to want to blame the entirety of a very large religion for the actions of a very few people who claim to follow it.

gobuchul - Member
Just like to point out that "honour" killings are culturally based, not due to Islamicism.
Really?

Yes. That's why I said so. You have evidence of the contrary?

There are plenty of Islamic countries where "honour" killings do not take place.

The same for wearing the "Niqab" or the like. Or perhaps you'd like to demur with another patronising emoticon.

There are plenty of Islamic countries where "honour" killings do not take place.

So what?

There are honour killings in the UK and it's not an Islamic country.

They are pretty much exclusive to a certain part of the Islamic community.

So what?

There are honour killings in the UK and it's not an Islamic country.

They are pretty much exclusive to a certain part of the Islamic community.

On average a woman is murdered by her current or former partner every 3 days in England and Wales, overwhelmingly in the christian/atheist community, not the "Islamic community"

Bad people exist everywhere shocka.

If Catholic A kills Catholic B for advocating for birth control, that's religiously motivated but not sectarian. But if Catholic A murders Protestant B for being a Protestant, then that is sectarian.

"Sect" is not the same as "Denomination".
For example,Mel Gibson's dad is a Catholic (denomination), but belongs to a sect called Traditional Catholicism. Among various extreme beliefs, he is a proponent of Sedevacantism, which states that the current occupant of the Vatican is not the true Pope:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutton_Gibson
He also believes Vatican II was a Jewish Masonic plot, and has questioned the holocaust.

So your scenario could well be an example of sectarian behaviour, even though both people belong to the same denomination.

gobuchul - Member
There are plenty of Islamic countries where "honour" killings do not take place.
So what?

So the idea that "honour killings" are an attribute of Muslim society [i]per se[/i] is not correct, although as this thread and others show, it is a mistake often made by those who wish to create a stick with which to beat it.

I hope that's clear and not likely to run foul of your tendency to be obtuse.

Read this to make up your mind but it's from Wiki though.

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing ]Honor Killing from Wiki[/url]

Sadly very many honour killings in India. Its far from a "Mulsim" issue. @ernie domestic violence is very differemt from honour killings

@kona you are right [i]acknowledge[/i] was a poor word to chose

As an aside it seems the murderer was a Bradford Uber driver. Uber have said he passed all driver screening including "enhanced" criminal bureau checks

@ernie domestic violence is very differemt from honour killings

You think so?

[i][b]Atheist Kills Girlfriend For Being A "Slag"[/b][/i] might not be a headline that you will ever see
but it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen regularly.

I don't see your point, the vast majority of murders are committed by people against others they know. A sectarian murder of one Muslim by another for religious reasons which takes place in Glasgow in 2016 is headline news for a very obvious reason.

A sectarian murder of one Muslim by another for religious reasons which takes place in Glasgow in 2016 is headline news for a very obvious reason.

Again, jambalaya - you could try not to sound so pleased. I realise you relish anything that fits your 'muslims bad' narrative but tragic as this is it's unlikely to be part of a wider pattern.

And yes there is a problem with extremist interpretations of Islam and realising that doesn't make someone a racist - but we do need to be very careful not to start making generalisations and extrapolations that could be racist, especially given that Muslims are the media baddies of choice right now.

jambalaya - Member

I don't see your point

Fair enough, let me try to explain.

Firstly, whenever a Muslim commits an appalling crime there is a tendency to emphasize the fact that they are Muslim. In contrast when a crime is committed by a christian or an atheist, for example, there is usually little emphasizes on their beliefs.

Secondly, you might think that it is [i]"very different"[/i] when a low-life stabs his wife to death because she wants to leave him, or some psycho kicks his girlfriend to death because he doesn't like the way she looks at other men, to so-called honour killings, but I don't think it is [i]"very different"[/i].

I have already pointed out that in England and Wales one woman is killed every 3 days by her current or former partner. This isn't somehow more acceptable than so-called honour killings because it's [i]"very different"[/i].

Thirdly, it's fairly clear to me that you are exploiting this latest tragic and horrific crime to further your long standing anti-Muslim agenda. And I'm not the only one who has come to that conclusion.

Hope you understand my point better now.

^^
You are wonderful and rational