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That would be this guy.
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The Russians are getting carried away now;
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"David Camoron says it cannot be business as usual".
Blimey I bet the Russians are cacking themselves!
What's he going to do? Impose a bedroom tax on the Kremlin? 😆
Dave's just popped up on the news to say there will be further consequences for Russia. Further? Further to what?
The Americans have said they will ' stand firm' on potentially bringing in visa restrictions
Yep. The crocodile wrestler must be quaking in his boots! The 'facts on the ground' in Crimea already look pretty permanent to me. It's almost as if it had been planned all along?
Self determination, the good:
Falklands
Gibraltar
Georgia
Scotland
Kosovo
Chechnya
Self determination, the bad:
Euskadi
Catalonia
Crimea
Im sure someone smarter than me will tell me why, democratically at least, a Crimean referendum on state affiliation is such a terrible thing.
someone smarter than me
You wont listen to me on economics or politics so I shall not waste my breath this time 😉
Basically its because they are the baddies.
Being wrong on economics and politics doesnt make you any less smart than me, junky. Just mistaken 🙂
Now now boys. Play nice. 😀
You forgot the Chagos Islands Stoner.
But please don't tell me that you've only just discovered that the UK's/US's/EU's commitment to democracy is only for as long as it serves their purpose ?
I had you down as a little smarter than that ! 🙂
The bastards have poo-poohed our plans for the self-determination of Malvernia as well. I was a shoe-in for Minister for Finance and Woodfuel. Damn that US military-industrial complex!
Armed insurrection is the only solution.
Damn that US military-industrial complex!
They're after your oil & gas fields, comrade.
What crisis? My Ukrainian oil shares are as hopeless now as they were before all this started. 🙂
They're after your oil & gas fields, comrade.
I taught wee 'Eck all his best work 😉
I taught wee 'Eck all his best work
THM, we have a live one - scramble your rapid-thread-response unit.
Other than that dodgy treaty thing they signed to get the nukes, I don't really see what it's got to do with the EU or the bloody US, Crimea was Russian anyway until Kruschev gave it away in 1954 and lots of them didn't much like that.
What if we'd given Scotland away to Southern Ireland, they then wanted to come back, but the US and Eu started up, what would we think, other than we'd probably have to wall them up...erm come to think of it isn't that's what's going to happen anyway?
This week's Private Eye says it all - essential reading, I think - unless you take the puffed up, posturing of the Western leaders seriously, that is!
derekfish - Member
...What if we'd given Scotland away to Southern Ireland, they then wanted to come back, but the US and Eu started up, what would we think, other than we'd probably have to wall them up...erm come to think of it isn't that's what's going to happen anyway?
No, no, you've got it wrong.
Shift Hadrian's wall further south to stop the barbarians coming north, and give Scotland the north of England.
Then you'll get open access like we have in Scotland. Think of all that lovely riding in the Lake District and Yorkshire and the posh nobs won't be able to do a thing about you going wherever you want. You'll never need to go to a trail park again (unless you want to).
We could call our new country The United Kingdom of Northern Britain. 🙂
The killer bonus is once we meld our various cuisines, we'll be able to enjoy deep fried butties after a ride.
Stoner - MemberIm sure someone smarter than me will tell me why, democratically at least, a Crimean referendum on state affiliation is such a terrible thing.
The Russian ethnic majority in the Crimea was created when Stalin deported huge numbers of the population. So saying self-determination for the Crimea today is good, can be seen as essentially endorsing ethnic cleansing. So, it is basically a total ****ing mess.
I won't recognise the independence of ****stan as to do so would endorse British ethic cleansing of India.
And don't get me started on Palestine.
The US is making a few little adjustments...
[url= http://news.yahoo.com/us-sends-six-fighters-nato-baltics-patrols-lithuania-150042846.html ]http://news.yahoo.com/us-sends-six-fighters-nato-baltics-patrols-lithuania-150042846.html[/url]
[url= http://news.yahoo.com/us-destroyer-en-route-black-sea-routine-drills-160237512.html;_ylt=AwrTWVXrnxhTIwcAxYLQtDMD ]http://news.yahoo.com/us-destroyer-en-route-black-sea-routine-drills-160237512.html;_ylt=AwrTWVXrnxhTIwcAxYLQtDMD[/url]
[url= http://news.yahoo.com/us-bolster-military-support-poland-baltic-162411959.html ]http://news.yahoo.com/us-bolster-military-support-poland-baltic-162411959.html[/url]
Shift Hadrian's wall further south to stop the barbarians coming north, and give Scotland the north of England.
That sort of talk has caused trouble before. I blame Malcolm.
The Russian ethnic majority in the Crimea was created when Stalin deported huge numbers of the population. So saying self-determination for the Crimea today is good, can be seen as essentially endorsing ethnic cleansing. So, it is basically a total ****ing mess.
Maybe, but not letting go of things that have happened in the past is a major source of current and future problems.
epicyclo - Member
derekfish - Member
...What if we'd given Scotland away to Southern Ireland, they then wanted to come back, but the US and Eu started up, what would we think, other than we'd probably have to wall them up...erm come to think of it isn't that's what's going to happen anyway?
No, no, you've got it wrong.Shift Hadrian's wall further south to stop the barbarians coming north, and give Scotland the north of England.
Then you'll get open access like we have in Scotland. Think of all that lovely riding in the Lake District and Yorkshire and the posh nobs won't be able to do a thing about you going wherever you want. You'll never need to go to a trail park again (unless you want to).
We could call our new country The United Kingdom of Northern Britain.
The killer bonus is once we meld our various cuisines, we'll be able to enjoy deep fried butties after a ride.
Hmm if it was up to me that wall would be erected North of the Thames and we'd chuck in all those city boys and anybody else who speaks funny, I wonder if Putin would consider taking Kent into the Russian Federation, well come to think of it the southern bit, I don't expect it be interested in the inbreds North of the Medway.
As much as you guys aren't going to like this....
"David Cameron says it cannot be business as usual".
He's right
Private investment into Russia just got sent back years.... and it's something they desperately need.
Has Putin really "won" ?
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piemonster - MemberMaybe, but not letting go of things that have happened in the past is a major source of current and future problems.
Absolutely. And that's why it's a total ****ing mess, it always is when you're looking at least-bad answers instead of desirable ones.
The Russian ethnic majority in the Crimea was created when Stalin deported huge numbers of the population. So saying self-determination for the Crimea today is good, can be seen as essentially endorsing ethnic cleansing. So, it is basically a total ****ing mess.
You mean like say the falklands isles, Northern Ireland [ that was literally a plantation] or Gibraltar...that sort of thing?
I think for it to be classed as ethnic cleansing they would need to eradicate all the other ethnic races rather than just outnumber them in a vote. They have done what we do in many of our overseas territories.
Of course I do not think it is correct but we can look at home for this as well. I imagine it is many of the same folk who are annoyed at Russia who would fit to the death to keep ours.
Junkyard - lazarusYou mean like say the falklands isles, Northern Ireland [ that was literally a plantation] or Gibraltar...that sort of thing?
Yup. But there are people still alive today who remember being kicked out of the Crimea, and people still alive who were moved in to replace them, which makes it a bit harder to say "Ah well it's all in the past". At what point do you recognise a difference between Gibraltar, or the Crimea, or an Israeli settlement built yesterday?
The answer is probably just when it's politically expedient to do so. Not convinced that's a worse answer than any other personally, you've got to decide somehow.
Like being past a certain age, politicians really do need to learn how (if at all IMO) and when to use social media. Pictures of CMD and Obama on the phone looking earnest with sleeves rolled up look frankly ridiculous. We know you are working on it, but don't need the staged photos.
Not surprised that they get mocked.
[i]I think for it to be classed as ethnic cleansing they would need to eradicate all the other ethnic races [/i]
And thats exactly what Stalin attempted to do in certain areas of the Ukraine, according to some (Ukranian) historians. And there are still people alive who remember it.
Like being past a certain age, politicians really do need to learn how (if at all IMO) and when to use social media.
Or they could get some media coaching, and learn from the master. Smile for the camera…..
😀
Ro5ey - Member
...Private investment into Russia just got sent back years.... and it's something they desperately need...
They'll just sell off a few football teams and everything will be rosy again...
They could make a tidy profit on the half of London they own.
They could make a tidy profit on the half of London they own.
Not sure anyone else could afford to buy it.....
What is Russia doing? No, just no.
Ah, the voice of reason at last:
so how did yanukovich smuggle biullions from ukraine...
- via a kitchen fitters in cardiff
http://www.private-eye.co.uk/sections.php?section_link=news&issue=1361
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ninfan - Member
Ah, the voice of reason at last:www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpDFDH5HjU8
And like it or not, he's spot on.
WTF is going on with Galloway's accent? Is he trying to be Russian??
Interesting article in the New York Times today
[url= http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/08/opinion/londons-laundry-business.html?hpw&rref=opinion ]London's Laundry Business[/url]
max has been tilting at that particular windmill for a long time
Well, March 16th is the day the Crimea decides it's future. Trouble is the rest of Ukraine is taking the view of the West and already calling it illegal . So I can see it all kicking off as we already know Crimea will vote to be Russian.
There may be (more) trouble ahead.....
I've heard it's going to split into 2 .
One country will be called Raine.
The other will become UK because that's where Russian billionaires like to live. 🙂
rossi46 - Member
Well, March 16th is the day the Crimea decides it's future. Trouble is the rest of Ukraine is taking the view of the West and already calling it illegal . So I can see it all kicking off as we already know Crimea will vote to be Russian.
There may be (more) trouble ahead.....
the problem is that crimea is only just majority russian 45% of the population are ukranian, will they be forced to leave their homes if they dont want to become russian?
The russian embassy on Notting Hill always has some coppers outside and there are often demos over the road; syria, pussy riot, gay rights, ukraine etc
but theres a house further down Notting Hill that I assume is the ambassadors house has had police outside lately and this morning there were 2 police both with submachine guns.
will they be forced to leave their homes if they dont want to become russian?
Serbians in Kosovo? Brits in Scotland?
I'm afraid that the right to self determination and democracy work that way, Crimea has long been an Autonomous republic and as such its pretty difficult to argue that they should not now be allowed to exercise that autonomy - we can't just pick and choose because we think that the West/Europe is somehow inherently 'right'.
As a slight aside, have you seen Putins approval ratings this week?
70%. So I guess the people who are going to be voting at the election are giving him a resounding thumbs for whats gone on. I wonder if any of the western leaders presently trying not to look too pathetically impotent, would poll even half that with their electorates. Did you see Obama's vague, none-specific 'threats' of 'a price to pay' this morning? All just hot air. He's not fooling anyone. Not even himself.
Its just reinforces the opinion that the Lion-wrestler is the shrewdest politician out there by a country mile, and there really is only one person in a position to be issuing high-handed decrees. Though he isn't. He's just letting the 'facts on the ground' speak for themselves
The best review of the situation I've seen is this one, which seems fair to both sides and is written by a Ukrainian :
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/ukraine-and-west-hot-air-hypocrisy-crimea-russia ]Grauniad[/url]
That nytimes article
Britain, open for business, no longer has a “mission.” Any moralizing remnant of the British Empire is gone;
Pretty sure he should broaden his historical knowledge a bit, iirc John Company was quite keen on making a few bob at the expense of others.
Seems more like business as usual.
good link Moses
have you seen Putins approval ratings this week?70%.
The lowest approval rating Putin has ever had since 2000 is 61%, almost twice the approval rating that Cameron can expect to get.
However unpalatable it might be Putin is popular with a clear majority of Russians, he doesn't really need to boost his ratings.
On the other hand Cameron, Obama, Hollande, etc, could do with a substantial boost to their approval ratings from their electorate.
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ok ill readjust that from ernies data- 41.5% of crimeans arent russian!
Im going on what a ukranian facebook friend and ex-coleague told me!
Good article that Moses. The usual hypocrisy from the west. We'll champion the cause of democracy as long as democracy delivers the leaders we want in power. If not, then anything that does is fair game really.
41.5% of crimeans arent russian!
And over a third of Londoners are foreign born.
And if my auntie had bollox......
ninfan - MemberI'm afraid that the right to self determination and democracy work that way, Crimea has long been an Autonomous republic and as such its pretty difficult to argue that they should not now be allowed to exercise that autonomy - we can't just pick and choose because we think that the West/Europe is somehow inherently 'right'.
Yes it is that simple, and when you kick someone off their land you have the unchallenged right to exercise self determination in "your" country.
The majority may speak Russian but the Russian nationalist movement in Crimea peaked in the early mid 1990s.
Having said that it is probably one of the most ethnically and politically contested and complicated regions in that area. Not surprising when you were invaded by the nazis in ww2, Stalin deports the entire Tartar pop in '44 and then you are given away ten years later by Kruschev. Then 91 complicates matters all over again. Hard to see how you make complete sense of all this.
I wish the press/media would give less attention to UK and US views and more to the relationship that is key here ie, Russia and Germany. Any German STWers who can give the local insight?
As a slight aside, have you seen Putins approval ratings this week?
You can't believe those figures.
Yes it is that simple, and when you kick someone off their land you have the unchallenged right to exercise self determination in "your" country.
If there had been a recent programme of 'ethnic cleansing' you might have a point, but the sins of the Stalinist era are a long time ago under a now collapsed regime - 'we are where we are' for want of a better expression, and its perfectly reasonable to now allow democracy to take its course.
The 'sins of the past' are rarely a good basis to limit the democratic course of the future - otherwise you'd have to take a long hard look at voting rights everywhere from Bradford to Mexico.
"Sins of the past" do however shape the lenses through which we view the present.
ninfan - MemberIf there had been a recent programme of 'ethnic cleansing' you might have a point, but the sins of the Stalinist era are a long time ago under a now collapsed regime
Hardly time-expired, there's plenty of people who remember it- people living elsewhere who get no vote in this, but who would still be living in the Crimea had they not been run off. The russian majority was engineered, in living memory, at the cost of others who now have no voice in this.
But this is beside the point- you asserted that the reason "the west" is unhappy with this is purely because they don't like the results that democracy is delivering, what I'm pointing out is that there are legitimate grounds to quetion the "rightness" of that democratic process.
How about the fact that the west gave assurances to Moscow in 1991 that it had no intention of encircling it by expanding NATO to include countries on Russia's borders. And in effect, what has happened?
The russian majority was engineered, in living memory, at the cost of others who now have no voice in this.
I think you'll find that ethic Russians formed a majority in Crimea even in 1944. The Russian tsars ruthlessly suppressed Ukrainian nationalism, that's one of the reasons why so few speak Ukrainian in eastern Ukraine (western Ukraine wasn't part of imperial Russia)
Indeed the whole of Ukraine has been the subject of continual ethnic cleansing and engineering. Ukraine was the birthplace of the Russian nation and Kiev was the capital of Russia hundreds of years before Moscow was.
The reason Ukraine has turned out ethically different to the rest of the Russian hinterland is because its geographical position has meant that it provided the territory for the clash of empires/civilizations/cultures/religions, including muslims, catholic, and eastern orthodox. I believe that Ukraine means "borderland" presumably alluding to the fact that it it represents the division between east and west, even today ?
But whilst there is clearly a sectarian dimension to the present crises in Ukraine today, after all one of the first things the coup leaders did after seizing power was to repeal the law on regional languages and made Ukraine the sole official language (they later backed down under strong pressure from their EU backers) I suspect that it would be over simplistic to put it all down to narrow sectarianism.
It is perfectly feasible for someone who is not an ethnic Russian to feel that there are more advantages in close ties with Russia than with the EU. For example most of eastern Ukraine's trade is with Russia, Moscow pays very large sums of money for its Black Sea Fleet Crimean facilities, Russia provides gas well below global market prices, all of which would be at risk if links with Russia were significantly severed.
Furthermore as a BRIC nation Russia is widely seen as an emerging economic superpower. Today Russia has half the unemployment level that the EU has and twice the growth. Plus Europe is probably doomed to a long slow period of economic decline as the technological advantages it once had over underdeveloped world disappear due to modern easily transferred technologies - third world counties can now challenge Europe on the quality and quantity of manufactured goods.
As a slight aside, have you seen Putins approval ratings this week?You can't believe those figures.
And yet the western press such as the Washington Post, which is unlikely to want to over emphasis Putin's popularity at home as they continue to portray him as some sort of strong man/near dictator, are perfectly prepared to 'believe those figures'.
Quote :
[i]In a poll conducted by the Russian Public Opinion Research Center (VTsIOM) last week, Putin's popularity level in Russia has reached 71.6 percent. That's a 9.7 percent since mid-February, which seems quite obviously linked to the Russian president's handling of Ukraine and the Sochi Olympics. As Ria Novosti notes, it means that Putin's popularity levels are now at a three-year high.
You might want to put that down to the fact that the VTsIOM is state-run, but that argument doesn't really hold. The Levada Center, a well-respected independent polling center, has also found that Putin had a 72 percent approval rating, up 7 points from January and a recent record. To put that in context on a world stage, U.S. president Barack Obama is currently at 43 percent, according to Gallup, while 79 percent of the French say they don't approve of Francois Hollande's presidency. Putin isn't just popular, he's extraordinarily popular.[/i]
[url= http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/03/13/we-treat-him-like-hes-mad-but-vladimir-putins-popularity-has-just-hit-a-3-year-high/ ]We treat him like he’s mad, but Vladimir Putin’s popularity has just hit a 3-year high[/url]
Do you know something which the Washington Post should also know ?
Well, the Beeb is reporting that one protester has been killed in clashes in eastern Ukraine - enough justification for Putin to move in to 'protect' ethnic Russians? Seems he's moved all his troops there ready. Not that they'll be going anywhere, I'm sure some local community figures will simply become very well equipped.
ernie_lynch - MemberI think you'll find that ethic Russians formed a majority in Crimea even in 1944.
Mmm, that's not the breakdown I've seen but I'd be daft to assume I'm right, what's your source?
Nothing daft with thinking you're right. I would stick with that.
I think I'm right; I'm just not going to assume I'm right 😉 Right?
The polls are in, here it is [url= http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/16/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 ]from the American viewpoint[/url] that is CNN.
Its obvious that Crimea will vote to be part of Russia once more, that will be illegal to everyone but Russia.
Could get messy from here on in...
Apologies, I've been too busy to post.
Why are we threatening war with Russia over the Crimea? can it ever be worth it.
The EU was at fault for stirring up trouble and the US thinks it is still the worlds judge, jury and policeman.
It ain't great but nor is Tibet, Palestine, Sri Lanka, Sudan or frankly Cuba but we don't risk everything to interfere in those disputes.
Will the Americans not learn that their 50 years of glory are over and go home. I'm just baffled.
Why are we threatening war with Russia over the Crimea?
Unless you've heard a piece of news I haven't, we aren't.
The whole exercise is limited to creating tensions with Russia for a variety of reasons. As examples, firstly it is important for global leaders to offer those they govern an enemy, a threat, something they should fear, real or imaginary. Secondly the West/US/EU wishes to expand their markets and political influence, pulling countries away from Russian influence and cooperation is obviously going to help them achieve that.
It's about power and wealth.
Apologies, I was exaggerating with my 'war' reference but you got the gist. I'm not as cynical as you but I do follow your logic. The military industrial complex in US has a lot to answer for and so it would appear do Eurocrats who just want a bigger bureaucracy to sponge off.
You are correct ernie- it is about power and wealth. Should this escalate into a military situation we can add it to the list of conflicts that were about power and wealth. That's all wars ever isn't it?
Edit: just seen Sky news- it seems the first steps to conflict are upon us- a Ukrainian soldier has been killed after a military base in Simferopol was stormed by armed men. Probably Russian.
And so it begins.....
That's all wars ever isn't it?
And all politics. And all history. It's all about power and wealth.
So, Crimea is a bit of land originally Russian, populated by a majority of Crimean Russians which is sitting of a bit of land that broke away from Russia, taking the mainly Russian populated Crimean region away from Russian.
There was a vote by people of the Crimea where over 80% of the population voted and they voted 93% to join Russia.
Where's the problem?
If the people want it, let them join back up with Russia where they want to be.
On this one I feel our leaders should back away and live and let live
I have no problem with any of the above process, were that process to take place in peacetime. I feel a little uneasy when the referendum to join your neighbours is carried with overwhelming support and those neighbours' troops are at the gate, and in some cases through the gate, performing operations wearing uniforms with no insignia.
All history is about power and wealth, Ernie? That implies no-one has ever tried to change the world for the better through self-sacrifice. I'm not sure I take such a cynical view.
That implies no-one has ever tried to change the world for the better through self-sacrifice.
Of course they have. Many have tried to change the world for the better through self-sacrifice, take Nelson Mandela as an example.
Nelson Mandela sought to increase the power and wealth of those he represented. To do so he had to challenge the power and wealth of others.
It was all about power and wealth. All history is about power and wealth