[Closed] UKIP's 'Common Sense' bus hits Portsmouth Railway Station.

The main prominent Muslim politician I know off the top of my head is Baroness Warsi. Her views on gay marriage are reported in this article which also mentions remarks she made on the subject as a Conservative candidate in the 2005 general election.

Yes but to be fair she is probably part of Derek's lefty conspiracy. So I'm afraid you lose.

The main prominent Muslim politician I know off the top of my head is Baroness Warsi. Her views on gay marriage are reported in this article which also mentions remarks she made on the subject as a Conservative candidate in the 2005 general election.

Yes but to be fair she is probably part of Derek's lefty conspiracy. So I'm afraid you lose.

It's getting pretty powerful this lefty conspiracy. At least it's inclusive in letting Tory Muslim baronesses in 🙂

[i]being right wing means your thick[/i]

Well, studies have shown it. Nothing we can do about that, except as a leftie, I'd ensure you were never left behind at school, and that you'd get a medal whatever your performance.

Studies haven't shown anything of the sort, certainly not the laughable attempts at science quoted earlier in this thread. Here's my "proof" of why right wing people are more intelligent.

People who are right wing tend to vote Conservative. Conservative voters tend to be wealthier. People with money are generally more intelligent than people without (yes, there are exceptions I know). Ergo people with right wing views are more intelligent than those with left wing views.

I reckon that's about as scientific a study as some of those other ones.

I reckon that's about as scientific a study as some of those other ones.

Are you a right-winger?

This thread is great. Derek, proving what the majority of people think of UKIP and it's members is actually true, by trying to argue they're not. Classic.

chestrockwell - Member
This thread is great. Derek, proving what the minority of people think of UKIP and it's members is actually true, by trying to argue they're not. Classic.

I think you'll find the majority is about to give y'all a rude awakening - hence lefty panic 😆

All those years of the liberal leftish elite rubbing the noses of the right into multiculturalism, political correctness, not to mention EU corruption , 'uman rights lawyers, and the general mis management of just about everything, coming home to roost and if you're a true right winger, Cameron counts as part of that left wing.

That's not saying I want any part of it, it's just a commentary on the shape of things to come and not much anyone here can do about it, which I have found some amusement in pointing out.

It has been a good thread, nice to see the boys on their back foot for a change..

Really, you think we are on our back foot when confronted by your arguments Derek?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

All those years of the liberal leftish elite rubbing the noses of the right into multiculturalism, political correctness, not to mention EU corruption , 'uman rights lawyers,

Let me tell you this, never ever go to a country about which you have heard something like this: "Hey, I heard in the news that [insert country here] has problems with human rights". If you do go there it is likely that you will be killed for crimes committed against human intellect.

I reckon that's about as scientific a study as some of those other ones.

We can all see why you would prefer this to not be the case but you cannot actually argue against facts just because you do not like them.

If it is any help I would be annoyed if it showed that left wing folk were the numbnuts.

I didn't think there was any relationship between IQ and net wealth, just a mild correlation with income.

....and if you're a true right winger, Cameron counts as part of that left wing.

You sound more like a republican tea party fruitcake every time you post.

Presumably US president Obama is a Marxist Muslim ?

[url= http://www.commieblaster.com/obama/ ]
Proof Obama's a: Communist / Socialist - Muslim - Russian Agent -
Serial Liar - Jew Hater - Racist - Narcissist - Gay - Soros Puppet - Evil Man[/url]

[img] [/img]

I confused wealth and income [ I am not an economist] your right
Apologies.

I knew it was only mild but thought it best to not get sidetracked arguing about that
[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

jaaaaaaaaaam - Member

chewkw - Member
I wonder if individuals are able to express their own views anymore good or bad?

I am sure there are nutters in all the parties.

you are, just don't be surprised when you get called out for being an idiot.

If I can express my individual viewpoints freely then you can label me whatever you wish but just don't tell me your views are the right ones.

🙄

I adhere to evidence based everything, so yes I will tell you which views are technically...the right one. 😈 ....when I can. However, you can put up a half decent argument when you aren't going through a bout of misanthropy Chewkw ....and you don't resort to your "zombie maggots" rants.

Also, graphs! Finally we hazzz graphsss. Every thread needs graphs.

chewkw - Member

If I can express my individual viewpoints freely then you can label me whatever you wish but just don't tell me your views are the right ones.

I know it's offensive to some people but you do realise your view really might be wrong?

It is cherry picking I'll admit, but I genuinely think it has a degree of validity. Equally though the arguments that show the opposite will cherry pick as well. These sorts of surveys all tend to find the result that the people carrying them out are looking for. All I was doing was being a bit cheeky and presenting the case for the other side. Mind you, the more I started to think about it the more I began to think it was probably true.

It all comes down to the size of subsets really. And that is something I doubt it is possible to calculate accurately. Therefore it comes down to perception. Where, I will grant you, left wingers come across as being more intelligent is that they tend to be more vocal, in great numbers, in the media, on social media and in other areas of public life. This is because they tend to be more prone to protest, as well as being more ideologically driven. Or possibly idealistically driven.

Many left wing people I know tend, more than the right wing ones, to want to make the world a better place. Right wing people tend to be more pragmatic. In that sense I admire many people with left wing views. However I would argue with them over whether the policies they believe in would actually achieve the aims they aspire to.

Yes, a sane right winger! Good post.

However, with the rise of the tea party types I'm not really sure that the left is more ideologically driven than the right. As a mass movement, the left seems to be dead in the uk. Whilst the right seems to be more willing to engage in delusional thinking, such as the denial of good scientific work (climate change amongst many others).

Tom_W1987 - Member

[b]I adhere to evidence based everything[/b], so yes I will tell you which views are technically...the right one. ....when I can. However, you can put up a half decent argument when you aren't going through a bout of misanthropy Chewkw ....and you don't resort to your "zombie maggots" rants.

Also, graphs! Finally we hazzz graphsss. Every thread needs graphs.

Sometimes an argument is just an argument that is very difficult to explain or to convince based on gut feeling. Rightly or wrongly those are individual freedom of opinion and I am not here to convince. Zombie maggots are just that nothing more or less and we see them everyday.

Half decent arguments? All of us are arguing with half decent arguments and are you considering your arguments perfect? 😆

[b][Tannoy][/b] Tom_W1987 has proclaimed to be the great oracle so all you zombie maggots bow to his feet! All hail the evidence based wisdom of Tom_W1987. How dare all of you zombie maggots express opinions without evidence based wisdom of Tom_W1987! [b][Tannoy][/b] 😈

Northwind - Member

chewkw - Member

If I can express my individual viewpoints freely then you can label me whatever you wish but just don't tell me your views are the right ones.

I know it's offensive to some people but you do realise your view really might be wrong?

Let me hear your wisdom ... don't need evidence based wisdom if that helps. Convince me you are right. 😆

I was more meaning this country, though that point about the Tea Party is a good one. Leaving aside however the extremes of right and left in this country who are very much in the minority (I'm meaning the likes of the BNP and the Communists) I'd still argue the left wing tends to be more ideologically driven. Or rather the ones outside of party politics are. It is fair to say that Mrs T was very ideologically driven, though so were many of her opponents at the time.

What I was trying to put across is that people on the left tend to be more willing to put their views forward on forums such as this and other types of media. You see something similar up here in Scotland with the referendum where the majority are still No voters, but the Yes campaigners are far more vocal. That's what I was getting at in my point about the perception of numbers. I suspect that many of the left wing who take to social media are the smart ones, while the right wing ones who crop up are often the idiots , trolls or attention seekers. Overall though I think the true numbers are different. Just my opinion of course.

The climate change thing isn't, I suspect, denied by many folk on the right. What they tend to disagree on is whether it is man made climate change and whether any steps we take in this country will actually do any good when China and India are industrialising at such a rate. That's a whole other debate though and I'm off to bed now. I've enjoyed the debating, but sleep calls.

What I was trying to put across is that people on the left tend to be more willing to put their views forward on forums such as this and other types of media.

I think you've missed the point. People who are willing to discuss things tend to end up more left-wing, it's not the other way round as you seem to be suggesting.

And simplistic right-wing attitudes such as racism, bigotry, lack of empathy, etc, tend to be the result of ignorance and not thinking things through, it can be reversed if the individual starts to engage in discussions.

[Tannoy] Tom_W1987 has proclaimed to be the great oracle so all you zombie maggots bow to his feet! All hail the evidence based wisdom of Tom_W1987. How dare all of you zombie maggots express opinions without evidence based wisdom of Tom_W1987! [Tannoy]

Damn right!

I jest. You're alright Chewkw.

The climate change thing isn't, I suspect, denied by many folk on the right.

I beg to differ. The link earlier to that tea-party "obama is a communist" website really highlights the point (if it isn't satire)! Pragmatism doesn't appear to me to be a conservative strong point, that would involve being pragmatic and listening to minority views such as the gay rights lobby.

Anyway neither labour, the tories or ukip represent my views - which are closer to that of a slightly left wing libertarian.

I think you'll find the majority is about to give y'all a rude awakening - hence lefty panic

as a one time scientist im gonna go ahead and put my opinion out there, and you quote me on it:

the ukips are a bunch of idiot bitches

konabunny - Member

Wow, that's amazing - UKIP supporters are the majority now!

Maybe not majority (depending on definition), but perhaps largest group.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/30/ukip-nigel-farage-top-polls-european-elections

Newsflash: lots of people across Europe are unhappy with the EU, and lots of them aren't bigotted BNP types.

Maybe not majority (depending on definition)

I thought that majority in a political context was very clearly defined ie, "more than half".

Is there another definition then ?

Newsflash: lots of people across Europe are unhappy with the EU, and lots of them aren't bigotted BNP types.

I wish UKIP would debate the relative merits of being in or out of Europe, rather than banging on about immigration.

In the leaflet I got it said we were Germany and France's biggest customer and we'd continue to be if we left Europe. But, as I understand it, the point of us being in Europe is to sell things [i]into[/i] the rest of Europe and being outside would make that harder.

Interesting post by kennyP, traditionally right and left could be split between the haves and have nots, the have nots are then split by being comforted by either religion (easier for the camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven)or political ideology, hence the first thing the left needed to do was remove religion from the equation to boost their power base.

As to the intelligence level of either side, you tend to find, other than the inherited wealth, that the rich are single minded in the accumulation of wealth, rather than intelligent per se (having spent a lifetime wondering why I've never become truly rich.) I also feel that left wing views are the province of the young and that experience garnered over the years brings on cynicism.

But my point remains true, in actual fact the left have been just as disenfranchised in recent years as the right by the current batch of consensual career politicians on all sides, and it is they rather than folk like me you can blame for the rise of UKIP, I'm just joining in the protest like everyone else who appears to have lost their reason. Maybe driven by a smidgin of anti EU angst derived from personal bitterness, but even when it comes to it, where that cross goes might still switch to the green box on the day, a pity they can't give up hugging those trees long enough to get organised, they could be what the moderate progressive left are looking for and I'd be more than up for that.

I think you've missed the point. People who are willing to discuss things tend to end up more left-wing, it's not the other way round as you seem to be suggesting.

And simplistic right-wing attitudes such as racism, bigotry, lack of empathy, etc, tend to be the result of ignorance and not thinking things through, it can be reversed if the individual starts to engage in discussions.

Disagree with the first part.
IMO, socialism requires co-operation and engagement by all. it's about the collective - collective responsibility and collective action. The first stage of that is communication.
More right wing ideology promotes the individual's rights to go about their business, especially economic, often in private. some might say "unhindered".
Therefore, to me, it's completely natural that left wingers are more vocal. Their ideology requires more involvement of others.

Second part describing " [i]racism, bigotry, lack of empathy[/i] ", as "[i]simplistic right-wing attitudes[/i]" lacks the usual class.

You are confusing conservatism with libertarianism. Neither ukip nor the tories are libertarian. Neither are their voters.

Sorry, but I'm not.
Who mentioned conservatism?

Maybe not majority (depending on definition), but perhaps largest group.

Is there another definition then ?

I am not sure why the lefties insist the right wingers are less bright on average whem tremendous counter points like that are being made

jaaaaaaaaaam - Member

as a one time scientist im gonna go ahead and put my opinion out there, and you quote me on it:

the ukips are a bunch of idiot bitches

Ahh I see the scientific view. 😯

Not sure if your opinion derived from scientific proof though? 😆

The problem a lot of the time is people think too simply about a straight line with left at one side, right at the other. I was at a 'workshop' a few years back and we did this political compass. Not perfect, but interesting I thought.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

The climate change thing isn't, I suspect, denied by many folk on the right.

I beg to differ:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/policy/eu-unhappy-climate-change-is-off-g20-agenda/story-e6frg6xf-1226873127864

And just look for any of the comments sections in Australian or American press on the topic. Both countries are generally considered to be somewhat to the right of the UK in terms of politics.

Just did the political compass test.

Economic Left/Right: -6.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.46

Apparently I'm more left wing than Hugo Chavez but not quite as much as Stalin, whilst being more libertarian than everyone listed. I think this means that I will go through life continually disappointed by mainstream political opinions.

Loum, the majority of UK based right wingers are conservatives. They don't believe in letting people people go about their buisness (eg marrying who they want and the free movement of people across borders etc). They simply want the freedom to indulge in their own brand of intolerance and attack the liberties of those that they don't like. They only believe in free market economics when it suits them and they certainly don't believe in social libertarianism.

I beg to differ:

And just look for any of the comments sections in Australian or American press on the topic. Both countries are generally considered to be somewhat to the right of the UK in terms of politics.

One only has to read the Torygraph to understand that the right are psychotically opposed to the idea of man made climate change.

The BNP advert thread has just made me realise the importance of Purple in the UKIP adverts

I reckon Nigel Farage should do a 'Ray Gardner' type UKIP advert

ernie_lynch - Member

I thought that majority in a political context was very clearly defined ie, "more than half".

Is there another definition then ?

There are. But it's like averages, if you want to use one of the nonstandard definitions you really need to say which. (ie, relative majority vs majority)

One only has to read the Torygraph to understand that the right are psychotically opposed to the idea of man made climate change.

The Torygraph is the most widely read UK broadsheet and is only surpassed by the Sun, the Mirror and the Wail in terms of circulation data.

I am Nelson Mandela apparently and can accuse Hollande of being both more RW and more authoritarian than me! (Just)

the ukips are a bunch of idiot bitches

😆

konabunny - Member

What definition of majority would mean UKIP supporters (let alone voters) were in the majority?

I said not majority but largest group.
As ernie pointed out, majority (especially in the context of politics) would be more than 50%.

Interesting that several posters chose to comment on that but managed to completely ignore the pertinent part of my post; the link to the latest poll results.

UKIP: 38%
Labour: 27%
Conservatives: 18%
Liberal Democrats: 8%

Care to comment on that konabunny?
Or would you prefer to continue trying to make an argument with me over something I haven't said?

teamhurtmore - Member

I am Nelson Mandela apparently and can accuse Hollande of being both more RW and more authoritarian than me! (Just)

So you also lie about your right-wing views to online political compass tests !

Now that's what I call covering your tracks ! 😉

Maybe not majority (depending on definition), but perhaps largest group.

majority (especially in the context of politics) would be more than 50%.

Sbob, the yougov polls still put ukip way behind in the general election.

and in a long line of yolk based British political protests Farage is egged in Nottingham;

[img] [/img]

What definition of majority would mean UKIP supporters (let alone voters) were in the majority?

A majority in which the highest number of votes cast for any one candidate, issue, or item exceeds the second-highest number, while not constituting an absolute majority.[ ie more than 50%]

my addition in []

personally I think it is brilliant UKIP get lots if EU MP's and not one UK MP - that must really annoy them

Lie, Ernie?? No but the test must be bollox. More libertarian that Hollande, sans doubt, more left wing, pas de tout.

Take the test several times for fun - always bottom left quadrant. Frankly only one axis means anything to me.

A majority in which the highest number of votes cast for any one candidate, issue, or item exceeds the second-highest number, while not constituting an absolute majority.[ ie more than 50%]

😀

I think if it meant something different you would have beaten me with something other than your [ excellent] use of sarcasm like say facts?

Lie, Ernie?? No but the test must be bollox.

Well I did add a winky to my post, which is something that I rarely do. Yes the test is bollox imo. For a start it consistently categorises people more to the left than they really are, imo.

I did notice the winky!!

this relates to only the egging above but deserves a wider audience;

[img] [/img]

konabunny - Member

You seem to be saying that whether or not it is a majority depends on one's definition of majority, and that majority might mean something other than more than 50% outside the context of politics. What definition of majority would mean UKIP supporters (let alone voters) were in the majority?

I thought we were discussing UKIP?
Why are you going off on a tangent about definitions?
Are you just after meaningless argument?

I'll invite you again to address the pertinent part of my earlier post; that UKIP [i]are[/i] garnering support.

I'll also remind you that I said UKIP were not a majority.

If you don't want to discuss the pertinent issues that's fine, I'll just file your posts under W and be done with it.

Tom_W1987 - Member

Sbob, the yougov polls still put ukip way behind in the general election.

Absolutely, and the majority 😉 of people who will vote for them in the Euro elections will not in the general.
Hats off to you Tom for keeping it vaguely on-topic.

As voters seem to be voting for UKIP based on a single issue...the EU..... then it would seem that the majority of United Kingdom voters are pro europe.

I'm not sure you can assume that TW. If there are still the traditional Labour voters like those with whom I worked yonks ago, they'll still vote Labour but might have strong doubts about some aspects of Europe.

sbob - Member

I'll also remind you that I said UKIP were not a majority.

You actually said "Maybe not majority (depending on definition)", but hey.

Tom_W1987 - Member

As voters seem to be voting for UKIP based on a single issue...the EU..... then it would seem that the majority of United Kingdom voters are pro europe.

Or, lots of people might be anti-europe, but unwilling to hitch themselves up to UKIP because they see them as bawbags.

and another, but he does like curry....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-condemns-candidate-james-elgars-deplorable-tweets-about-muslims-and-women-9311910.html

I like that egg chucker

Egg-throwing is a well established form of political protest in this country. I saw the guys outside the town hall about 10 minutes ago. I went to Tesco, bought some eggs

You actually said

I'm well aware of what I said, it's in black and white.
You know the bit, it's the bit you just partially quoted. 💡

Or, lots of people might be anti-europe, but unwilling to hitch themselves up to UKIP

You may be surprised to hear that although I am anti-EU superstate, I am not pro-UKIP.

I hope that clarification can reduce the amount of bell-whiffery going on.

Generally, I like laughing at UKIP members because they're the sort of people who desperately want to be taken seriously.

This time I just want to punch one of them.

[i] “Consider compulsory abortion when the foetus is detected as having Downs, Spina Bifida or similar syndrome which, if it is born, will render the child a burden on the state as well as on the family.”[/i]

[url= http://www.gravesendreporter.co.uk/news/exclusive_compulsory_abortion_for_down_s_syndrome_foetuses_says_ukip_kent_candidate_1_1745952 ]http://www.gravesendreporter.co.uk/news/exclusive_compulsory_abortion_for_down_s_syndrome_foetuses_says_ukip_kent_candidate_1_1745952[/url]

The UKIP woman on QT last night was not as awful as I would have expected (worryingly). In fact the whole panel were remarkably normal last night and even broadly sensible (within obvious limits)

Farrage on next week. His media machine does a bloody good job.

That link from Gravesend is amazing. Amongst the comments, a nugget of genius -

[img] [/img]

THM Only Vince Cable has been on more times than Farage [ will be equal now iirc] - I think the green MP is about the same

still the media is against them eh - two weeks running and still no MP's

I gave up years ago but still listen to any questions/answers [ i listen to it Saturday usually.

Mr Clark told the Reporter: “They are a burden on the state. The NHS is no longer affordable and some services have to be cut. I’m tired of politicians saying we should cut managers.”

Exactly. UKIP candidates say what other politicians are afraid to say, like make the abortion of foetuses with Down's Syndrome compulsory because people with Down's Syndrome, even though they can lead happy lives, are a burden on hardworking taxpayers. And cost NHS mangers their jobs, apparently.

Don't cut mangers and bureaucracy in the NHS, enforce compulsory abortion of babies with Down's Syndrome instead.

I'm going to rush out and vote UKIP on the 22sd because they are fearless in what they say.

My neighbour is standing as a local UKIP candidate for the second time. He has just done his mail shot and outlined his key issues; more dog bins for our area (he has two big dogs), removal of speed bumps in local area that is notorious for boy racers (he has a large camper van that struggles with the bumps) are among two of his stunners.
He also mailed our friends, who he also knows, and has contact with as all the kids play together; they are Algerian!!
He is a real know it all and always comes out with bull**** all the time.
We have endless joy and mirth in our house discussing UKIPS views!!

It stops being funny when the ****ers start winning seats... 🙁

Nothing really sensible to add to the debate as UKIP are a non-issue for me. How anyone could take them seriously though is a real concern.

UkipWeather @UkipWeather · Feb 23
Much of the country will remain dry, but winds will pick up in the afternoon when a man unravels the homosexual subtext in Top Gun

[b]teamhurtmore[/b]The UKIP woman on QT last night was not as awful as I would have expected (worryingly). In fact the whole panel were remarkably normal last night and even broadly sensible (within obvious limits)

Farrage on next week. His media machine does a bloody good job.

Farrage is reflecting public opinion, he's saying what people want to hear. The media is doing all it can to discredit UKIP except their poling just keeps improving.

Meanwhile Milliband is talking about capping rent rises when Labour voters are worried about their job security and many are turning to UKIP. It's a mistake to believe UKIP support is coming purely from the right. in France a very large number of extreme left voters are now supporting Front Nationale. The FN won control of a number of left wing districts with votes coming from the left not the right.

As Simon Jenkins said on QT last night, for a guy with a PPE degree and an MSC in Economics (Dear Ed) to propose rent controls as a solution is ridiculous. Politicians eh? Under pressure they all resort to type!

Farrage is reflecting public opinion

That's what he would like people to believe, except there is scant evidence that he is.

As an example he was opposed to same sex marriage but even a majority of UKIP supporters, let alone the wider public, support same sex marriage.

On the question of the re-introduction of smoking in pubs etc does that really 'reflect public opinion' ?

What about a flat rate tax, bearing in mind the opposition there was to the poll tax which was based on exactly the same principle, is public opinion really behind that?

Or the slashing of corporation tax when you consider the public outrage Starbucks non-payment of corporation tax caused ?

What about Farage helping himself to as much expenses as he possibly can - is that really in tune with public opinion ?

There undoubtedly is significant public opposition to the EU but on a whole range of other issues I would say that Farage is very much out of step with public opinion and doesn't reflect it.