[Closed] UKIP - you really couldn't make it up.

If they were to say it was for reasons other than the budren on the state would you be ok with it? I think that it's a fair choice for parents to be able to make IF there is a highly accurate diagnostic test which can be carried out at an early stage in pregnancy.

lets be entirely clear here. you can chose an abortion on medical grounds if you wish up to 22 weeks.. and that must be allowed to continue.. not all in the world is fluffy and that option/ choice must be available to women.
and equally advice should be available for the latter stages of thier lives if they are 80 or 18 for that matter.

Have you chaps read the article? Does anybody feel comfortable with the word "compulsory"?

I'm all for choice.

Have you chaps read the article? Does anybody feel comfortable with the word "compulsory"?

Nope. Not at all comfy with that. Choice is good, this isn't.

Thankfully, UKIP are as much of a freakish sideshow as Margaret Burke. Long may it remain that way.

If they were to say it was for reasons other than the budren on the state would you be ok with it? I think that it's a fair choice for parents to be able to make IF there is a highly accurate diagnostic test which can be carried out at an early stage in pregnancy.

Missing the point glupton. People of UKip's ilk and a large percentage of tories would love to do this to "prevent a burden on the state" or " I don't want to pay for stuff that doesn't affect me directly".

At least they are honest about it.

Question those views, myself, but the title here is a little disingenuous, since it's about UKIP saying that he will not be a candidate of theirs because of exactly this. (I'll quickly point out that I'm quite a long way away from being a UK IP supporter...)

Just saying.

If elected, he promises to promote the Christian ethic and British culture, roll back Islam, contain UK population growth and restrict immigration.

sounds like a reasonable easy going fella ! these right wing nut jobs feel emboldened at the moment, so more are dropping their guard, saying the unsayable, its a reflection of the political discourse-- the race to the right !

"[i]a large percentage of tories would love to do this[/i]"

You're honestly saying that a large percentage of Tories are secretly in favour of compulsory abortions?

Are you on crack?

eadlydarcy - Member
And Cameron fears that this is the party to which disaffected Tories will flee?

Well, they wouldn't want to vote BNP with all of those ghastly disaffected Labour voters. 😉

If it keeps on like this, Labour will eventually become left-wing again.

Not at all comfortable but amongst his dodgy thoughts is a salient one - the NHS is going to become unaffordable and some very, very tough decisions are going to have to be made. It's a brilliant thing that people are able to live longer and we have procedures and drugs to prolong life but all this advancement costs money. I think of my father this year - we all knew he was terminal and years ago he would have been sent home to die. In 2011/12 he got endless different drug combinations to try and scans - I reckon about £70-80Ks worth, and that was on a lost cause for a few extra months. It's got to be paid for somehow. As a nation we have to either embrace it (and pay for it by working even longer and/or paying a greater proportion of or income in tax) or add a load of life saving options to the list of things that would be nice to have but we sadly can't. Or go down his option (to be fair to him he did only put it out as a possible option, not something he believed should happen).

Some tough choices ahead over the next few decades.

I don't know bravo...I'm just referencing Cameron's fears. It's not a personal opinion.

My eldest sister had Spina Bifida myelomeningocele (the most severe form of Spina Bifida). She died when I was in my early teens and she was one of the brightest funniest people I have ever had the privilege of knowing and I still treasure my memories of my childhood with her to this day.

My wife and I were told that our children were in the high risk category after having the AFP test during both of her pregnancies. There was never a single doubt in our minds whether or not we would consider having an abortion. I cannot imagine how we would have responded had a Dr told us that she had to have a compulsory abortion.

convert - Member

Some tough choices ahead over the next few decades.

Absolutely. Most expensive thing you can ever do to a patient is keep them alive.

Even leaving aside the cost issue, there's a genuine quality of life concern which so far, we're not addressing well.

I disagree with this sort of eugenics, but it's a legitimate subject for discussion.

Mr Clark said on his website he did not endorse the abortion idea but suggested it to cut the national debt.

Playing devils advocate here - he's maybe just trying to spark a debate about what the NHS and the state should and should not be paying for.

Reminds me of an an environmental economics lecture once, (given by a senior economic advisor to the them prime minister), where he spakred a debate about having a sponsored panda shoot. They rarely breed, live alone, eat one thing yet we spend a fortune keeping them alive - a fortune that could be better used elsewhere saving human lives.

Has anyone read the link? It says that UKIP have suspended the bloke that was advocating the compulsory abortion. Isn't that a good thing?

Ah I see, so he's just trolling then is it?

the nhs is brilliant concept, but ideologically it is hated by the tories, they cannot say so, so they hypocritically praise it, while undermining it with policies.

The nhs is one of the most cost effective health care systems on the planet, its being tampered with by imbeciles who only wish to profit from its demise, so it needs more funding, how about getting all the taxes due from the obscene wealth gatherers that use this country. There is a huge amount of uncollected tax, avoided tax, and scams to help the wealthy remain even more so.

Tis easier to blame poor people, those on 'benefits' --not on Tax benefits though ! scrap trident-- that would sort health care in almost one swoop !

I seem to remember Sir Keith Joseph, in Maggie's government, having similar views back in the seventies. So it's not just UKIP that want a slaughter of the innocents.

[i]Not at all comfortable but amongst his dodgy thoughts is a salient one - the NHS is going to be come unaffordable and some very, very tough decisions are going to have to be made. It's a brilliant thing that people are able to live longer and we have procedures and drugs to prolong life but all this advancement costs money. As a nation we have to either embrace it (and pay for it by working even longer and/or paying a greater proportion of or income in tax) or add a load of life saving options to the list things that would be nice to have but we sadly can't. Or go down his option (to be fair to him he did only put it as a possible option, not something he believed should happen).[/i]

Agreed, and looking at my parents and in-laws (aged 72-79) at least one of them will visit the Doctors/Hospital every week. Plus the amount of medication they take.

I'm not sure of the answer, but I can see the problem.

On a brighter note.

Unlucky Geoff
[img] [/img]

Unlucky Alf
[img] [/img]

I'm no UKIP or Tory fan (or Labour or Liberal for that matter) but I really don't think this is really a common line.

It does however raise an interesting point about the quality of candidate in politics. Was this guy, previous to his PR blunder was considered a serious contender? Ignoring the moral issue of compulsory abortion and just thinking about his cost savings argument. Did he just pull this idea of of this air or had he actual done some basic sums to work out how much this would really save the NHS? Its a bit like Philip Hammond with his 80 mph speed limit will increase economic activity policy. It seems some of these political types just though policy ideas out there without having done some basic research. We all have ideas that are crap but as a politician shouldn't some basic costing (if its a money saving policy) or whatever go on before they start using it as a tool to be elected?

"So it's not just UKIP that want a slaughter of the innocents."

They've suspended the bloke! You're all reacting like Mail readers.

You're honestly saying that a large percentage of Tories are secretly in favour of compulsory abortions?

Are you on crack?

Hit a nerve did I?

I'm not sure of the answer, but I can see the problem.

Absolutely. Most expensive thing you can ever do to a patient is keep them alive.

Even leaving aside the cost issue

the NHS is going to become unaffordable and some very, very tough decisions are going to have to be made.

Why don't some of you "do a UKIP", and just say it is a cost issue instead of trying to be some sort of tortured souls over the "morality" of it all?

The NHS is affordable now and in the future. What I would suggest is that you take up the free euthanasia advice as it seems none of you are planning on getting old.

rudebwoy - Member

The nhs is one of the most cost effective health care systems on the planet

Source?

its being tampered with by imbeciles who only wish to profit from its demise, so it needs more funding, how about getting all the taxes due from the obscene wealth gatherers that use this country. There is a huge amount of uncollected tax, avoided tax, and scams to help the wealthy remain even more so.

Hang on a minute, you don't pay any tax!

The NHS is run appallingly badly.
A good friend is being denied an operation he needs because it is too expensive (£5,000).
Meanwhile, he has received over £20,000 worth of pain relief which is needed because he hasn't had the operation.
You call that cost effective? 😆

shifter - Member

Has anyone read the link? It says that UKIP have suspended the bloke that was advocating the compulsory abortion. Isn't that a good thing?

Sensible post is sensible.

Well, I suppose it makes a change from the right wing nutters (TM) being against abortion 😕

Northwind +1
Rudebwoy -1

Just because it isn't palatable doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it, even if ultimately we'd have to be so far in the sh1t to seriously consider it.

shifter - Member
Has anyone read the link? It says that UKIP have suspended the bloke that was advocating the compulsory abortion. Isn't that a good thing?

Don't tell them that, they'll have nowt to rattle on about then...

if you read my post sbob instead of jumping to conclusions, you will be aware that tampering by imbeciles will create a situation that you have described-- who's interest is that for-- the company who supply pain relief --it seems that if you let the workers who actually run the show, manage it --then you would see vast improvements-- but as you may or may not know a huge parasitical device has been fostered onto the back of it to ensure plenty of pickings for private suppliers......tis a scandal

[rattle]Well they were happy to have him until he said something nutty. You'd think they'd have some idea what he was like. [/rattle]

Oh look...

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-achieves-highestever-poll-rating-at-the-expense-of-the-conservatives-8422891.html ]Tories popularity waning as support drifts towards UKIP. Oh dear.[/url]

rudebwoy - Member

if you read my post sbob

I did.
Care to share your source for it being so cost effective?
An independant source would be nice. 😉

It wasn't me that just jumped to a conclusion... 💡

Rattle, rattle...

http://shortreports.rsmjournals.com/content/2/7/60.abstract

Rattle, rattle...

You alright there? Sounding a bit empty-vessel.

imagine a man from a country where a woman is left to die because she is illegaly denied a life saving abortion starting a thread where he takes the moral high ground on abortion

Well, the NHS is one of the finest and noblest aspects of our society. And pretty much anyone who believes it's a luxury that should be degraded over cost issues is, imho a total nob head.

A society that protects those in need is a society to be aspired for.

I do think having a national health service is a wonderful thing, a necessary thing for a civilized country.
It does need improvement though.

imagine a man from a country where a woman is left to die because she is illegaly denied a life saving abortion starting a thread where he takes the moral high ground on abortion

I'm imagining...

...and yes, I'm having no problem visualising it. What exactly is your problem with the concept?

It pays to sometimes re-read one's post before posting to avoid looking like a bit of an eejit. Might I suggest you give that a go next time.

I seem to remember Sir Keith Joseph, in Maggie's government, having similar views back in the seventies.

sbob - Member
I do think having a national health service is a wonderful thing

Especially when it's one of the most cost effective, eh?

the NHS is going to become unaffordable and some very, very tough decisions are going to have to be made

Dear God.. WTF.. hmm shall we raise taxes, or cull the population?

OMGF I'm outta this thread!

El-bent - Member

You're honestly saying that a large percentage of Tories are secretly in favour of compulsory abortions?

Are you on crack?

Hit a nerve did I?

I doubt it. You just sounded like you needed to grow a brain stem, is all....

Dear God.. WTF.. hmm shall we raise taxes, or cull the population?

It's already happening every day of the week and has done for years - I'm assuming you have not heard of NICE?

I'm not saying cull the population - and to be honest you'd have to have your cretin dial set to max to read what I wrote like that but there will be an increasingly large number of treatments available (as in invented) and people who are staying alive that could use them that are not affordable by the NHS as it is currently funded. For what it's worth I'm in the raise the taxes & cut defence spending to pay for it camp for definite but there are plenty of people out there who know a hell of a lot more than you and I do who think that we will get to a point in the not too distant future where we will need to think very differently about the proportion of the money we earn that will need to spend on health.

I'm a push over and would vote for a government that served that up every day (but I'm going to be - dinky with disposable income and few heirs and graces about the need for an affluent lifestyle) - I'm just not convinced I live in a country where everyone thinks like I do.

If the word compulsory was taken out i would whole heatedly agree with the quote.

I believe everyone should have a choice. Weather that is to die and have some one close help you, or to have a featus that you may love removed that you couldn't give a quality life to.

Well of course there should be a choice. Not sure anyone is debating that.

Such views are not restricted to UKIP candidates. I suspect that if you scratched the surface of the Coalition you'd find plenty of support for such sentiments. They're just savvy enough not to articulate them in public...

A society that protects those in need is a society to be aspired for.

Unfortunately I very much doubt that many Conservatives believe in this...

It's already happening every day of the week and has done for years - I'm assuming you have not heard of NICE?

I feel that had it been left to the NHS, I wouldn't be here now or if I was, it would be in a coma.

Been forced to go outside of the NHS for treatment and I'm not alone. Many people with my illness have done the same.

A society that protects those in need is a society to be aspired for.

Ha ha ha ha, my ar$e.

you only have to look at some of the really quite nasty racist/bonkers comments that appear on any ukip article in the telegraph/ mail etc to see that the party attracts some nutters

you only have to look at some of the really quite nasty racist/bonkers comments that appear on any [s]ukip[/s] [b]Conservative[/b] article in the telegraph/ mail etc to see that the party attracts some nutters

FIFY 😉

The way I see it is UKIP are just Conservatives who can't be bothered to pretend they actually care about anyone other themselves. Sort of like the 'Id' of the Tories, without the Ego to constrain it.

[quote=footflaps ]The way I see it is Labour are just Conservatives who [s]can't be bothered to [/s]pretend they actually care about anyone other themselves.

you only have to look at some of the really quite nasty racist/bonkers comments that appear on any ukip article in the telegraph/ mail etc to see that the party attracts some nutters

There's a bonkers bigoted comment at the very top of this page.

druidh - re New Labour, you may well be right. I'm pretty sure Tony Blair only cares about lining his own pockets.

Lifer - Member

Especially when it's one of the most cost effective, eh?

Says who?
Chap who wrote a paper to piss off an MP who had used his previous paper against his wishes?
Right-o.

Of course, independant people seem to come to the conclusion that it is far too complex a metric to accurately rate. But what do they know?

Is this where I come in having vaguely read the OP and not much of the rest of the thread and say...
I'm all in favour of compulsory euthanasia advice for elderly UKIP / Tory voters?
😆

Ha ha ha ha, my ar$e.

independant people seem to come to the conclusion that it is far too complex a metric to accurately rate

Once more and in English please? 😕

sbob - Member

"Lifer - Member

Especially when it's one of the most cost effective, eh?"

Says who?
Chap who wrote a paper to piss off an MP who had used his previous paper against his wishes?
Right-o.

Please expand.

I feel that had it been left to the NHS, I wouldn't be here now or if I was, it would be in a coma.

Been forced to go outside of the NHS for treatment and I'm not alone. Many people with my illness have done the same.

What would that be?

What would that be?

Not sure why you would feel able to ask for such personal information of someone on an internet forum....and in such a sympathetic tone 😐

Because the forum is anonymous and the response may help further the debate?

CG is far from anonymous having met numerous forum members in real life organising rides etc. She might well choose to share but if she was that way inclined I'm sure she would have put it in the original post.

She's under no obligation to answer.

Somebody asked a question, thats all.

Fair enough - just thought the tone had more "challenge" than empathy for my liking. It is an internet forum though, so not always populated by those with, how shall I put this, people skills.

+1 shifter

I think she's already shared it in other threads. I ain't gonna say in case I'm wrong but I think I know.

I doubt it. You just sounded like you needed to grow a brain stem, is all....

And it took all of yours to come up with this witty reply.