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IME from a few chats with family acquaintances some people who are 50-65 today and need staff nowadays, want to have them on the same crap terms as they were subjected to when younger.
- onus on the staff to find the employer, employer shouldn't make any effort
- no clothes or PPE provided
- no commitment to regular hours
- short notice for coming in to work
- no training provided
- shouting at staff when they do things that work but aren't the employer's preference
- shouting at staff when in a bad mood
- docking staff pay for accidental damage to equipment and fittings
- reducing hourly pay for a while, for asking if they could have a day off during a busy period
- low pay "I just want some lads who'll work for pint money"
- fend for yourself health and safety
- poor quality or unsuitable equipment, e.g. handheld jackhammer
- bring your own tools
- use your own van to get here and pop round different sites, no allowance for this
- a job that's ok for other people's kids but not their own
IME from a few chats with family acquaintances some people who are 50-65 today and need staff nowadays, want to have them on the same crap terms as they were subjected to when younger.
I don't think it's even that. I think they're just completely out of touch with how far money doesn't go now, and have an illusion of how much harder things were back in the day.
We pay, and expect our freelancers to demand, a minimum 10% booking fee or if cancelled within 20 days of delivery they get 50%, if cancelled within 7 days they get 100%.
That sounds great. Where do I sign up for that? I have never experienced anything like that in a whole life of freelancing.
I can tell you with absolute certainty that the percentage of freelance/temporary staff who have anything remotely resembling that kind of arrangement in this country will be absolutely minuscule
If you are a temporary worker of any sort
in the UK’s present gig economy, the one absolute given (other than everything @bikesandboots listed above) is that you will be relentlessly ****ed about, day in, day out by employers who will treat you as an essentially disposable resource to be abused.
They want… no EXPECT… you essentially on call, entirely at their behest, as and when they need you, 24/7, but don’t want to pay you for that.
I could list horror story after horror story of the utterly ludicrous, totally unreasonable requests I and other freelancers have had dropped on us from employers over the last few years.
Some of them you’d actually laugh at as they’re so utterly preposterous it sounds like you’re making it up. Yet some employers will demand something patently impossible while you wonder how they can keep a straight face.
I’ve actually burst out laughing in peoples faces before now, then stood incredulously as i’ve realised they’re actually serious
I hear you binners.
Part of the reason we have these rules is that I've been the freelancer before, and I've colleagues who preceeded me that put a few things in place.
When I started I tightened it up. We expect high standards - our freelancers are customer facing on our behalf. I want the best, and that costs in money and commitment to them and they to us.
We also provide training each year alongside our staff team, often online but if possible in person....but in truth I also expect they have insurance, first aid, safeguarding etc etc so they also have to keep training.
Nearly every post has been advice about the reality of the market
So basically capitalism in its purest form? But yeah “socialism” is the problem when it’s the worker exercising supply and demand.
....I asked a load of WFH IT consultants....
I don't think I've ever been so insulted ☹️
I don’t think it’s even that. I think they’re just completely out of touch with how far money doesn’t go now, and have an illusion of how much harder things were back in the day.
My dad is a bit like this.bangs on about how high his mortgage rate was.
Totally misses the fact that the cost of the house* compared to the salary was. And that the people trying to save also have rent levels which effectively prevent them building up a deposit.
*40k for 3acres one detached house one massive shed a set of outbuildings he is currently converting and a flat in newington. All in now probably close to 1.25 million when divided up.
And generally he's a pretty ranty hand ringing lefty. He certainly landlords exceptionally fairly, always allows early exit etc.
The mortgage rate was high for about 5 minutes. And yes, in that brief time it did ruin a small proportion of people. Anyone who managed to ride it out (meaning the vast majority) made a packet on the house price bubble. Which they invariably attribute to their own hard work and skill, rather than blind luck of being in the right place at the right time.
That would be because sometime not long after my post where I didn’t know, I had a conversation to tell the one decent guy that I’d be sorting him something extra for his graft and I asked him.
You discussed wages at work?
Call it what you want but if you’re not paying enough, conditions are rubbish they’ll go elsewhere as their skill set is needed. Maybe you need to stop using agencies who capitalise on workers and employ direct.
I have been reflecting on the way into work.
My last job had a real issue around our freelance staff. They were used on very busy weeks and when our team was ill. We did not pay well and could not afford to compete with others in the area.
I realised that we ran a few weeks of staff training through the off-season in the winter, one week particularly we brought in experts and ran refreshers on things, another couple of weeks we headed out as staff team to refresh and try new things.
It cost naff all to bring in a few of the freelance staff. They paid their own travel, but we gave them food and treated them like our own team. They got attendance certificates from us, which while not full NGB certificates was something they could show other employers as evidence of training and upskilling. My team benefitted from more experienced and diverse colleagues, and had to be at well prepared and at the top of their game with 'outsiders' watching. We also built really good relationships with the freelancers.
Suddenly I had no problem when I needed freelancers. Word got out that we did this and our permanent recruitment got easier - people wanted to work for us as we trained them *properly* and committed to professional development, plus they got to meet interesting people and actually progress
I also fought for funding to get my own team up the qualifications ladder - I wanted better qualified and more experienced people working for me. I left after 5 years having halved staff turnover, and some of the team I recruited were there a decade until the centre closed at the end of the pandemic.
Yes the job market is tough, but you cannot change the candidates, you can change your own organisation, you can invest in the future of the industry and your reputation. And in my experience if you do that genuinely, it pays off handsomly.
.
It's really not rocket science and applies to any job role you are trying to fill. If you offered £10,000 a day there would be a queue a mile long at your door. There's a number between what you are paying now and £10,000 where you will find the people you are looking for. It would suck if that number puts the costs beyond that which a customer would pay (this is where a lot of the service industries are heading to, restaurants / coffee shops etc), but that's how markets work.
Sure there maybe a smaller available labour pool (cos high employment) - that means you've got to prise people away from other jobs. By paying more than the next gig. Or you / your industry can invest in more training / education / marketing to try and grow that labour pool over the next 5-10 years. In the mean time, the only lever you have to pull is £.
People havent changed, they are still acting rationally in their own interests. Be that dossing around their parents house playing COD until they are 50 (blame the parents!), going on the dole (blame society!), working for the next gig for more £ (blame the competition!).
@matt_outandabout - thats good to hear. I don't doubt you're one of the good guys, but those kind of arrangements are the exception rather than the rule.
I'm relatively lucky. I'm older and established. I have regular repeat customers who I have a relationships with, built over years. I feel sorry for the younger, less established people who don't feel able to say no to ludicrous requests and appalling treatment.
Unfortunately during repeated lockdowns where Lil Rishi deemed us freelancers neither employee, nor self-employed (Schrodinger's employee?), so entitled to nothing, a lot of employers took full advantage to exploit peoples desperation. Wages were driven down - at some points to minimum wage - and demands just got frankly daft. They've never really recovered. Its now all just become normalised, hence the last-minute job cancelation like I described yesterday just becoming totally unsurprising. Its just par for the course nowadays
That backs up my experiences. I think that people work well when they feel like an important part of the team and they are worth investing in and looking after. People commit to something they feel a part of. If you give people respect and agency and autonomy, they respond, for the most part. People need money to live, but they need positive experiences and relationships to thrive. Being an agency worker denies them that, because you become nothing but a resource.
I missed the bit where I asked a load of WFH IT consultants how to run a boots on the ground construction business.
Yeah, STW is pretty heavy on IT folk.
But of course, many of us didn't start off in IT. Personally I spent 15 years working offshore in drilling. If you want to understand market forces and the evolving power dynamic between employer and employee in their purest most vicious and unforgiving form then I can't think of a better apprenticeship than that.
But yeah sure, you just carry on blaming the young people. Between the shit conditions, shit pay, and your sparkling personality it really is a mystery as to why you're having problems hiring and retaining.
Pretty much what I’d expect from a socialist audience that don’t seem to like employers very much though.
It would seem the 'socialists' on here understand capitalism more than you do. The market is the market, no price is fixed, and goods and services are worth only what the seller is prepared to accept. It's simple supply and demand, if you can't acquire what you want (in this case labour), offer to pay more, and repeat until you are successful. Then you will know what the market rate is for the thing you want to buy.
retty much what I’d expect from a socialist audience that don’t seem to like employers very much though. Pay everyone more, in fact give your labourers tradesmen’s wages right from the off, doesn’t matter if they are any good or not.
Wait until he hears about collective bargaining in other industries.
I thought capitalists wanted a market economy.
I missed the bit where I asked a load of WFH IT consultants how to run a boots on the ground construction business.
I thought it was funny how it seemed leveled as some kind of insult, but evidently a lot of people started off with crappy agency jobs and progressed to roles which have better working conditions and pay better.
Why would someone want to work outside for an agency with crap pay and crap terms and conditions when they can earn more with Lidl with decent terms and conditions?
In you are such a fan of capitalism, why don’t you save yourself a lot of hassle and work for somebody else? Or perhaps you don’t do that as you think you can get a better deal than an employer would offer you - kind of a “self socialist”.
Skewed theories that the workers are ‘guaranteed’ getting minimum wage at best, which when I pointed out wasn’t the case was treated as though I was potentially lying. Or after multiple posts stating that the mercenary agency were stealing their livings, then stating that the agency must in fact be rubbish if they are only taking £3/HR.
I'm sure I'm not the only one taking your quoted numbers with a huge pinch of salt. Because they just don't add up. If you're paying £19ph, and the lad you mention is apparently getting paid £16ph by the agency, then as already pointed out; after NI and all other costs, the agency would be loosing money. So someone, somewhere isn't giving the correct figures. Perhaps the agency is paying one lad £16ph, and the other are on a lot less? Who knows.
Make your minds up.
This is the internet.
No, that’s the JIB industry standard rate. I generally pay £250 upwards for sparks
The £16ph you quoted is JIB guidelines for minimum rates. For trainees.
Whatever, it seems a damn sight harder to get people to come and work than it was a few years ago. This is echoed by other contractors too.
Why do YOU think this is?
I missed the bit where I asked a load of WFH IT consultants how to run a boots on the ground construction business.
Lol, guilty. But before this I worked for temp agencies doing all sorts of crap jobs. And then I got a job doing industry recruitment (so not construction but similar unskilled labour) and then moved to IT recruitment - where I saw the size of the numbers beiing paid and thought - I'll have some of that.
So whilst I'm not an 'expert' in your field I have a bunch of relevant life experience.
Btw - did anyone mention you need to suck it up and pay the temps more?
Have you spoken to the agency about their margin yet and had a convo about their peformance? I'd be squeezing them, or replacing them first.
I thought capitalists wanted a market economy.
They do right up to the point where the market favours workers. Then they complain that labour is too expensive (or lazy and ****less as in this case) and ask the govt for handouts in the form of tax relief or direct subsidies. It never occurs to them that they might need to accept lower profits, or take a risk by passing the cost on to the end consumer. In reality business leaders/employers don't want a free market, they want a rigged market where they don't have to compete and profits are guaranteed. Monopolism, in other words.
It never occurs to them that they might need to accept lower profits,
Of course it occurs to them, they just - like any other interested party like say...workers, don't want it to happen. Everybody is making the same self-interested decisions.
It’s simple supply and demand, if you can’t acquire what you want (in this case labour), offer to pay more, and repeat until you are successful.
It's worth pointing out that it's not always all about the money. People still do some jobs for love, vocation, enjoyment, likelihood of future rewards, lack of alternative.
OTOH, if the only thing you're offering is money, then it is all about the money.
It was always inevitable which way this thread would pan out wasn't it 😂 OP must've been aware.
Anyone else enjoying the OP telling everyone they don't know what they are talking about. But he is the one who runs such a shit show that no body wants to work for him?
And had to ask why?
People still do some jobs for love, vocation, enjoyment, likelihood of future rewards, lack of alternative.
I'll add, sometimes its nothing to do with the job, its to do with the people they are working with that brings the enjoyment / fulfilment.
That said given the cost of living crisis I'd say more people are being pushed away from the luxury of those types of jobs as its more about paying the mortgage and feeding the kids than filling fulfilled in work
But he is the one who runs such a shit show that no body wants to work for him?
I admit to a sense of schadenfreude when an arch-capitalist complains of workers acting like capitalists.
"No, not that sort of capitalism. I meant the sort where the boss makes a mint and the workers grovel for scraps."
very good Dakuan
I'd be interested to know if the £16per hour you quote is umbrella or PAYE, if it's umbrella you can realistically knock a few quid an hour off that rate due to agency fees, holiday pay, which is included in the hourly rate, etc etc. PAYE it's on top.
I'm self employed, freelance to be more accurate and due to a huge budget cut last year I lost much of my work overnight, while I was looking for other clients to work for I started doing a bit of agency work, there's loads of it about and it all pays about the same, a bit above minimum wage, or a few quid an hour more for umbrella, which works out much the same after fees etc. They even pay proper overtime rates at the weekend, time and a half, double time etc without having to have done forty hours so can actually work out ok.
I still do a couple of days a week, I've continued to work there as it's flexible, pleasant, no stress, I can work whichever days I choose and everyone is really nice, also creating multiple streams of income protects me from the vagaries of one market, would I work in a muddy field in all weathers for the same ( or pretty similar) cash, well no I wouldn't and as I say there's plenty of similarly paid work out there, I think therein lies your problem, workers just have lots more choice of jobs available to them at present.
You only have to see the Welsh guy on YouTube doing snagging lists for folk having bought new houses how bad workmanship can be, so many chancers claiming to be tradesmen. Companies using agencies for workers, "site managers" with no trade skill but can make sure everyone signs in and out, wears a hard hat and hi viz then signing off crap work as they can't see bad workmanship
In fairness to the OP he’s gone from his rates being enough to them not being enough, in quite a big way (the B word +covid + Ukraine/cost of living crisis), and just not adapted fast enough he’ll have tendered for work on the now inadequate rate and there’ll be contractors out there still using old rates and still clients expecting to see the old rates in quotes, it’s pretty cut throat and a few Bob will see you not win the work, so yeah, the worlds changed, suck it up princess but not in a way that means you go bust
The lad that stayed, talk to him, find out what the chat on the ground was, is the agency ripping them and you off. Ask him what he gets, did the agency represent the job correctly, working conditions etc. Do the workers have the right wet weather gear.
Can you get a nice big portacabin so they have somewhere warm and dry to go on a break, have a brew etc.
I’d be looking to recruit from places like South Wales, and pay them a daily rate direct, find them digs etc.
Did you see the builders doing up the fancy hotel in London, they used miners from Wales to hand dig the concrete pillars five stories under the hotel, while it was still open. These guys dug it out with spades (the pillars not the floors) I imagine they were being paid big money.
TBH I doubt if the agency are paying temps half what they charge the company. Last time I used agency workers, there was a premium of around 25% which the agency got on top of a worker's hourly rate.
For me, employment/employer stuff is give and take. If the employer wants something extra, there needs to be something in it for me. If I want a pay rise - how am I going to make more profit for the company?
I think 'Ye Olden days' were the same - OK conditions and rates were harsher but there was less of a gap between rich and poor. There was probably more work around too - e.g. construction in the 1980's.
I’m sure I’m not the only one taking your quoted numbers with a huge pinch of salt. Because they just don’t add up. If you’re paying £19ph, and the lad you mention is apparently getting paid £16ph by the agency, then as already pointed out; after NI and all other costs, the agency would be loosing money. So someone, somewhere isn’t giving the correct figures. Perhaps the agency is paying one lad £16ph, and the other are on a lot less?
They won’t be ‘Employees’, they will be self employed under the CIS rules, so the agency will not have to pay any NI.
A Payroll/Umbrella Company will be doing the payroll and timesheets, they will deduct around £20-£24 a week off the Workers for the privilege of paying their wages each week. Holiday will only be taken off your income if you opt in, the Agency/Payroll Co. do not contribute anything to the Holiday pay, it is deductions taken from the Workers hourly pay. The Workers will have 20% tax taken off their full earnings each pay day (no tax code/allowance, you pay 20% on everything). N.I. is paid at the annual Tax Return, if any is due.
Usually, Workers who do this get a tax refund at the year end, even after the NI bill, as they have paid 20% on all earnings in the year, and that is usually more than is required to settle the Tax/NI bill once expenses and personal allowances are taken into account.
I can well believe the £3 per hour per worker from the Agency, it’s a cut throat world in Construction, 40 hours a week gives the agency £120 for basically 4 or 5 phone calls, as there isnt any ongoing commitments for them. I’ve worked for loads over the years, one rang me 3 months after leaving one site, asking how it was going, he didnt even know I’d left the site.
I once applied for a low level IT call desk job years ago (contractor/umbrella), via an agency...I forget the figures but from memory it went something like this...
Me: so you are offering £14 per hour, is that gross top line or projected NET after I pay my own Tax, NI etc?
Them:.. that's top line...
Me: That's almost minimum wage after I've paid my own employers Tax & NI, accounting expenses, etc?
Them: They love your CV and are really keen to interview & get you onboard, it's pretty much a guaranteed job!
Me: I bet they are very keen, tell them they can kiss my ass!
Sorry, I got confused between house prices rising and construction activity. The construction boom of 1960's, then.
Call it what you want but if you’re not paying enough, conditions are rubbish they’ll go elsewhere as their skill set is needed. Maybe you need to stop using agencies who capitalise on workers and employ direct.
The workers may well feel that the money doesn't match the conditions, that's entirely their prerogative, I can't argue with that.
Unfortunately the nature of my work dictates the amount of staff required. One month it could be 20, a week or two later it could be 10, a month or two later, it could just be me on my own.
I'm sure someone will be along soon to tell me that my busuness acumen is useless
The £16ph you quoted is JIB guidelines for minimum rates. For trainees.
Yeah, hands up - my mistake, I was checking on my phone and it was an old PDF that came up, it's now £17.90 with own transport
Have you spoken to the agency about their margin yet and had a convo about their peformance?
I've not asked the agency what their margin is, but I know what I'm paying and I know what the agency are paying the op's. But yes, we have daily conversations about who has turned up, who has left, who is performing well
It was always inevitable which way this thread would pan out wasn’t it 😂 OP must’ve been aware.
Absolutely 😉
Anyone else enjoying the OP telling everyone they don’t know what they are talking about
What, such as the workers are definitely only getting minumum wage?
But he is the one who runs such a shit show that no body wants to work for him?
Apart from the lads who first worked for me through an agency in 2016? Believe me, the company that I contract to would not use my services if I ran a shitshow in your oh so pleasant words
And had to ask why?
I don't actually recall asking why. Meanwhile, your contribution the the thread has been stellar. Thanks
In fairness to the OP he’s gone from his rates being enough to them not being enough, in quite a big way
I've checked what I was paying an agency for the same work in 2016 - £15/hr. So £19 is a 26.6% increase. Checking the BoE calculator the equivalent of £10 in 2016 is now £13.13, so 31.3%. So yeah (assuming simiar agency margins), current rates are falling a bit behind, but not by huge amounts
Do the workers have the right wet weather gear.
Can you get a nice big portacabin so they have somewhere warm and dry to go on a break, have a brew etc.
I go out and get them anything they need over and above mandatory PPE - wet weather suits, wellies, thermal gloves, hand warmers.
There are suitable welfare facilities on site and drying rooms etc. The generator went down the other day, so I gave them my card to go and get a feed and a brew in Morrisons cafe
they will be self employed under the CIS rules
This is correct
Just to be clear, we're not blaming you for paying workers badly - that's society's fault for putting us all in this position.
We are blaming you for blaming the lads though.
If they’ve got all the correct gear, and they obviously know what they are being paid, then leave half way through the first shift, the agency must be misrepresenting the job.
the agency must be misrepresenting the job.
The workers often misrepresent themselves to the agency as well.
We’ve had guys turn up to erect steelwork who have told the agency they have done it before. So the agency sell them to you as semi skilled. It’s often clear in the first 5 minutes that they don’t know one end of a podger from the other. It’s a dangerous game, and no place for people who don’t know what they are doing. We’ve had to send a lot away as they are a danger to themselves , let alone others. This was when I was employed by others.
I won’t use agency at all, and if the subby gangs I use are not available, then I ask the client to postpone, or I turn the job down.
the agency must be misrepresenting the job.
One of the "bag of dicks" type of business, along with estate agents and recruiters.
The workers often misrepresent themselves to the agency as well.
I guess if a lot of people are doing it, then you pretty much need to as well, if you want any work.
Overall both are being aspirational about skills, worker inflates it a bit, agency inflates it a bit more, until at the end it's grossly overstated.