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I know it doesn't work like that, but I'd argue that your temp staff should be paid more than the regulars. In every other area, you pay for convenience. There's no stability in it for them, they should be compensated for that risk.
Actually though, it does work like that. I'd expect to be paid more as a contractor than as a permanent employee. Why doesn't it work that way for agency staff?
I’d learn how to do the job well, then start my own company and offer my services to the OP at the rate he is paying the agency. Only he’s getting me as an enthusiastic worker at the same rate. Then after a short while , I would ask for a bit more on top, which he would be willing to pay as he knows he’s getting better value for money . Maybe in the future , I would take it to the next level and grow my business and become a competitor for the OP
I think you should show us all just how easy that is. Because obviously it's dead easy, right?
surely you should be working to NAECI (blue book) rates, which sets comprehensive terms and conditions of employment for hourly-paid engineering construction workers on major and basic engineering construction projects, repair and maintenance sites and events / outages throughout the UK.
past couple of years 22/23 its been 2.5% pay and rates increase, I believe the recommendation is over 10% for 2024 to reflect the increase in cost of living for workers.
from the rates discussed here, there would appear to be a large discrepancy. We don't struggle to find good people and retain them, in our sister company that are specialist engineering and construction with everything from labourers to coded welders, confined space specialists etc..
Only he’s getting me as an enthusiastic worker at the same rate.
In capitalist terms, that person is a loser.
The employer's motivation is to pay as little as possible while extracting as much work as possible.
The worker's motivation is to be paid as much as possible for as little work as possible.
They're both doing the same thing.
They're trying to negotiate the best deal for themselves in a contract.
And workers should be praised for doing so effectively.
If you think that working enthusiastically in crap jobs is a route to success then...I disagree.
Life is not a Nike advert.
Lots to reply to, but driving to another job, so I'll just do a bit for now
These are intelligent adults, right?
You'd think, sadly they often behave like children
The key factors that keep getting mentioned are a wage gap and not discussing wages
First scenario
Me to agency - how much for sem skilled labourers?
Agency - £xxx
Me - hold on a minute, send me a load of unproven guys, but instead of the rate you've told me, I'm going to give you potentially £3-4k a week extra for the next ten weeks
I'm not sure in what fantasy world you expect that to happen
Secondly, how is it going to do down with the lads staying away all week, having to do the thinking and driving the job out on site, then answering the questions if something's not done right - when some agency labourers turn up (don't be misled by semi skilled - sometimes this just means they can tie their own shoelaces) and just follow a lead, getting paid the same money? The more useful section of the workforce that I've employed regularly (don't know why they keep coming back, as I'm obviously an arsehole to work for) will revolt and I know that for a fact.
So that leads on to the other matter of discussing wages. It causes unrest and consumes the workforce.
One regular lad (they started with an agency btw) is doing much more of the organising on site off his own back, so he's going to be rewarded for it. If he then goes bragging about it, more unrest.
I've had a site years ago where I used two different agencies. They were paying different rates to the lads. It caused chaos in sure the first couple of days. That one got sorted though and I leveled the agencies up.
As for the initial point. Some that say they are coming just don't turn up, some are gone in half a day. That's nothing to do with who is getting paid what, they just don't want to do the work that's there.
I've worked through an agency for a period. For that time, I got less money then I would if I'd gone out and found my own work. That's how it is sometimes
Oh by the way, the agency lads get paid a full day Friday when we finish at lunch and the other guys have to sit on the A1 for 4 hours. As I've already mentioned the hour and a half taken in breaks each day doesn't get deducted either, when it could by rights
I do plenty to look after the workforce that isn't needed and goes a long way to keeping them happy and I get thanked for it
So what you're saying is, you're doing everything as well as you can and don't really need any advice?
All the fault lies entirely with the younger generation and you simply need them to buck up their ideas?
You still don’t know how much the agency staff are getting paid. You know how much you’re paying the agency, but it might well be the agency are the only ones get a good deal.
I'd be very surprised if the agency are paying them anything other than statutory minimum, and quite possibly making deductions for 'services' provided by the agency too, I've been on the recieving end myself many years ago.
Add to the fact it's hard graft in the middle of a field in winter in the middle of nowhere, or you could put beans on shelves in a warm supermarket for the same/more money.
As for the initial point. Some that say they are coming just don’t turn up... That’s nothing to do with who is getting paid what, they just don’t want to do the work that’s there.
That kind of is about how much they're being paid. If it was £1k/hour, I'm pretty sure they'd make damned sure they turned up.
On the face of it, it would seem like the amount they're being offered, they're happy to walk away from. Probably they've got a better offer in the meantime.
It surprises me sometimes what semi skilled workers can expect to be paid.
Case in point - where I work we pay a day rate of £150 for a mountain leader on a freelance contract, plus another £30 if they are overnight in the mountains with the group. That involves having some not so easy to get qualifications and a shit ton of responsibility and judgment calls and out in all weathers. In the same geographical area you'd need to pay £30ph for an interior painter. This is not for some master craftsman but a jobbing painter of essentially DIY competency turning up without their own brushes or equipment. The mountain leaders always turn up on time, are always professional and cheery with the kids. Your painter appears to believe they are doing you a favour and going above and beyond if they turn up on the prearranged day and actually do the work expected for the hours you are paying them for.
I’ve worked through an agency for a period. For that time, I got less money then I would if I’d gone out and found my own work. That’s how it is sometimes
Is this not exactly what is happening to you now? Workers being paid the minimum by an agency are looking for work elsewhere... so they're not committed to the work they're doing for you, and they're gone as soon as they've found their own work.
Fulfilling supermarket delivery orders is where it’s at these days I believe.
It’s a shame it’s solar and not windmills, with the “Don Quixote battles his fantasy labour market” style to this.
Would providing free (minibus) transport from a central point or two be helpful?
But they have made it less productive, haven’t they.
Yup, it's inevitable that if you remove a sizeable chunk of the workforce which are very productive (EU workers), then overrall productivity will go down. Clearly the idiots who gave us brexit are of the view that the magical market will rectify this all on its own but those of us not in fantasyland know that won't happen. In fact now we have the worst of all worlds (from an economic perspective) in that we have a less productive workforce wanting higher wages. Having said that though, from the perspective of the ****less agency worker who can demand more money brexit may well be working just fine.
Now what…?
Pile money into training and education, subsidise businesses to take on apprentices and skilled workers, have an industrial strategy which targets specific sectors and provides investment where its needed. That's all fantasyland with a tory govt.
Interesting thread - couple of random thoughts -
1. I agree the agency workers are not getting paid enough
2. You absolutely should know the margin the agency are working to. If you don't whoever is managing the contract should
3. Up your rates and / or reduce the margin. The agency should have some SLA's with you and clearly they are failing
(I worked as a recruitment consultant for about 3 months after leaving uni....)
Its interesting, as in my industry, IT contractors are paid double, sometimes triple perm employees, and have the ability to offset costs, travel etc... against tax. Its justified because they don't have paid leave / sick / pension / job security etc... Compare that to temp work in construction.
I've had a few tentative chats about new roles in my industry, and frankly the person specifications are ridiculous - one role had been open for a year. Turning water to wine would have been easier. And the salary was 'market rate'. Rather than adapt what I've seen is employers seem to be OK not adapting and just complaining they can#t get the staff. I suspose it probably suits the middle manager - they can't be held to account for delivering outcomes if 'external market pressures' mean they can't recruit
I also don't think this is *just* a young person thing, but they are disproportionately hit
EDIT - re IT contractors, often, not always, the expectations of them is lower than a perm, and they have to deal with less corporate shit and politics.
Some that say they are coming just don’t turn up, some are gone in half a day. That’s nothing to do with who is getting paid what, they just don’t want to do the work that’s there.
You and the agency can bin them off at the drop of a hat with no repercussions, so why expect loyalty, expect them to work for the highest bidder at any given moment, if they get a better offer they're gone, and if they're getting at or below minimum wage in poor conditions then just about anything will be a better offer.
Productivity is more to do with skills, training and capital investment. Brexit has reduced all of these in the UK... while also diverting investment into coping with Brexit (to minimise the drop in productivity caused by the additional red tape we were supposed to be getting rid off... investing to avoid sinking, rather than move forward).
Anyway... agency low paid workers need to get out of their stop gap work, and into something were they can improve their own skills in a recognised way if they want to avoid poverty and pay their way in a more costly environment. They owe the agency and their client nothing, they need to look after themselves.
Case in point – where I work we pay a day rate of £150 for a mountain leader on a freelance contract, plus another £30 if they are overnight in the mountains with the group.
Wow! It's almost like being a mountain leader is a more desirable job than painting someone's house for them.
Crazy!
Rather than adapt what I’ve seen is employers seem to be OK not adapting and just complaining they can#t get the staff.
This. I always have a good laugh when rightwingers bang on about lazy workers wanting handouts when in reality the people who are most likely to hold their hands out are business leaders who don't want to pay whatever the market rate is because it will impact their shareholders dividends and their own remuneration.
He used the wrong case in his SI units (you all knew what he meant btw), so what. The forum is hardly a technical arena. Calm down.
The other problem is likely that short term temp agencies are always going to have high churn rates because cost of living is high and people need job security.
And the salary was ‘market rate’.
This is just like the 'do not discuss money' on site. It is a shysters way out, a way of disempowering the worker and plays a huge role in salary discrimination.
Put. The. Salary. On. The. Advert.
This is like a Daily Mash headline "Employer thinks staff are lazy for leaving work but doesn't think to find out how much they are paid"
Wow! It’s almost like being a mountain leader is a more desirable job than painting someone’s house for them.
Crazy!
To you (and me) maybe.
Knock on a thousand random doors and ask which they'd go for and then come back and make that comment.
I would be interested to know how many apprentices are directly employed by all these employers complaining about lack of good staff.
No one is going to take on debt to train up for you in this climate. Train them yourselves and be certain that they have had the training necessary for your needs. The days of going to the shelf for a new LGV driver, fitter or electrician are past. Get on and spend some money, no one running a business is entitled to a free ride, no one.
I am often staggered by the number of people who seem to think good, skilled people grow on trees and almost refuse to recognise the benefits to an organisation of taking on people with potential but lacking skills/Qual's to train and mould into the workers they want.
maybe not every role is filled by pay rolled staff, but if you want a consistent workforce it makes sense to build it for yourself and only use agencies where you need genuinely non-skilled labourers or very niche skills for short periods.
Money is explicitly not to be discussed on site as it causes issues.
Then they go to the Pub after, or the Agency let something slip, or they simply ignore your ridiculous "explicit" instructions. Honestly whatever rules you put in place Remuneration will be discussed in some way or shape. They probably take you're rule as an indication that there's something to be curious about there, a bit of the old Streisand effect drawing attention to wages.
Question for the OP, do the Agencies get/share feedback from the walk-offs/one dayers? If you want to understand why people don't want to work for you past their first shift, you could just ask them...
They can get min wage working as junior doctors, why wouldn't they want to work in the cold and rain for the same money?
FTFY
No one is going to take on debt to train up for you in this climate.
We pay for 3 years of professional training, with additional pay increments as our technicians move towards becoming full registered professionals, with no clawback (unlike a lot of companies in our field) we work on the theory, more skilled people in our industry helps us all and if you treat people well and have good pay and conditions you get great staff retention.
Knock on a thousand random doors and ask which they’d go for and then come back and make that comment.
Fair enough, if you went and asked people if they want to be mountain leaders.
However, if you knocked on people's doors and asked, 'Hey, would you rather be a *insert job related to the person's favourite hobby here* or paint people's houses?', exactly how many do you reckon are going to jump at the chance to paint strangers' houses?
In a perfect economy people would be able to follow their passions without having to worry if doing so is going to lead to destitution. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect economy so the only people who can pursue jobs related to their passions are those who, for whatever reason, don't fear destitution.
Therefore, painters get paid more than mountain leaders.
...plus another £30 if they are overnight in the mountains with the group...
Sorry, this is OT. Surely leaders in the mountains with a group, while not actually doing walking about, navigation training, minor first aid etc. are still working, as in being responsible for safety, welfare and such. Should they not be getting proper rates of pay for this too?
I'm sure there was a case a few years ago where care workers living with vulnerable people won fair pay rates for overnighters, and could still be classed as 'working' even though a proportion of the time they were asleep.
Getting paid for being asleep is a skill i have worked at for years
I am often staggered by the number of people who seem to think good, skilled people grow on trees and almost refuse to recognise the benefits to an organisation of taking on people with potential but lacking skills/Qual’s to train and mould into the workers they want.
We’ve wasted a lot of time and money on trainees in the last few years. Very small company, so 1 apprentice is a big deal.
Personally I got fed up trying to train lads who can’t be arsed to get up in the morning or I have to constantly tell to get off the phone, whist I’m showing them something.
Each one had a van, phone and decent pay.
It got to the point where if one lad wasn’t at the meet point exactly on time I’d leave, it’d make my day easier all round .
10mins delay in the morning heading into London can make a huge difference.
Some just aren’t cut out for site work.
Case in point – where I work we pay a day rate of £150 for a mountain leader on a freelance contract,
Just over minimum wage for a highly skilled job
plus another £30 if they are overnight in the mountains with the group.
then way below minimum wage
train lads who can’t be arsed
That’s my point. It’s usually lads isn’t it?
Just over minimum wage for a highly skilled job
Not great is it. But if you met a group at the carpark and deposited them back 8 hours later that'd be £18.75hr - 70% above living wage.
then way below minimum wage
Yep - it's rubbish....though as per previous post I'm not clear quite what constitutes working hours in that situation. But yes, pants.
train lads who can’t be arsed
That’s my point. It’s usually lads isn’t it?
To be fair one of them was 30, another was ex forces (ironically the worst time keeper).
The 20ish year old who did a year, was pretty good. He decided he wanted to do something else which is fair enough.
No women applied.
It’s almost as if something happened around 2016 to cut us off from a vast reserve of high quality workers…
Who were prepared to work for peanuts...
It’s almost as if something happened around 2016 to cut us off from a vast reserve of high quality workers…
But immigration is now much higher than it was before Brexit, it's just that more of it is from non-EU countries. Which is of course what remainers predicted. Are the current crop of immigrants simply less skilled? Or is something else going on?
Just spoke to the Mrs on this - she did a fair few years (preBrexit) in recruitment agency (Temp/Temp to Perm but Office not construction). She says you would need to specifically ask the agency for a margin conversation and it's not as simple as You pay X, they pay Y and X-Y= Profit.
There is national insurance, "holiday pay", overheads, wages etc etc.
And keep in mind they are providing you with a service (phone/in person interviews, right to work documentation, sifting out the real dross), if it was easy and cheap to take on temporary workers directly then Temp Agencies wouldn't exist. I have seen how hard they work in a high pressure sales environment and it is not a job I would want.
I used to do a lot of agency work in my misspent youth .. Mostly forklift driving & warehouse type stuff.
If your paying the agency £19ph, the agency will be paying them minimum wage or barely over... I guarentee it.
No one is going to stick it out in a muddy field in the cold and wet for that sort of money for long.
No women applied.
This is not the fault of the women.
I know it doesn’t work like that, but I’d argue that your temp staff should be paid more than the regulars. In every other area, you pay for convenience. There’s no stability in it for them, they should be compensated for that risk
Only for the same job. It sounds like the agency staff are not doing the same job as the perm staff. The perm staff seem to:
1. Have more responsibility
2. Be working away from home (as I. Not going home at night)
Both of these things require a uplift. #2 ISA pretty big one as well.
On the other side of the argument I expect the agency is taking at least 50% of that£19 per hour as for some reason employment agencies seem to consider their own work as skilled rather than semi skilled at best.
I have seen how hard they work in a high pressure sales environment and it is not a job I would want.
That's the bit of what you typed that depresses me. Why would it/ should it be a sales environment? But it is. It should be a service first and foremost but everyone I know who works/worked in it thinks of themselves in sales. My wife spent a year in a recruitment agency in the middle of an HR/internal recruitment career. Sadly it confirmed all of her prejudices about the industry. Little care for the employers they worked for and even less for the candidates they were placing. Pile em high, sell em cheap - negotiating the margin and meeting targets being the overwhelming priority. Deliberately recommending candidate x instead of y to an employer because the current employer of x was more likely to engage them to fill the space so poaching from your own employer clients was positively encouraged. Nasty, nasty industry.
You still don’t know how much the agency staff are getting paid. You know how much you’re paying the agency, but it might well be the agency are the only ones get a good deal.
But these aren't the OP's employees, they're the agency's.
I am often staggered by the number of people who seem to think good, skilled people grow on trees and almost refuse to recognise the benefits to an organisation of taking on people with potential but lacking skills/Qual’s to train and mould into the workers they want.
My first boss took that chance on me, it paid off well for that company I worked at for 10years and set me up for life.
It's also now paid off for my right hand man sat opposite me with the stable well paid career and my passed on skills and knowledge. It will hopefully do the same for our next apprentice.
Its biggest benefit is that those skills and knowledge stay within the company long term.
She says you would need to specifically ask the agency for a margin conversation and it’s not as simple as You pay X, they pay Y and X-Y= Profit.
There is national insurance, “holiday pay”, overheads, wages etc etc.
I understand that, but the numbers don't work out. When I've done agency work, the cut they've been taking has been half or more. i.e. they charge £20 and pay £10. For as long as employment lasts. That's been over a year in some cases. I get that there's been some screening, and yes, they should charge for that, but interviews have consisted of "can you show up at 8am?" - that doesn't seem like a lot of value for money. Especially as a candidate when you can take the time to talk to them and do all their ridiculous paperwork and then never hear from them again - that doesn't seem like you've worked hard enough for me to take a massive cut of what people are willing to pay for my time.
I've even had some agencies try to beat me down after agreeing on a number to increase their cut.
No sympathy for agencies here. They're all bottom feeders as far as I'm concerned.
Just another quick one for now
I know exactly how much they are getting £16/HR for 45hrs
With breaks and early Friday finish they are working 35hrs. They aren't on minimum wage
Anyone know how much a (non approved) qualified electrician gets per hour cards in out of interest? Around £16/hr. Yes holidays, pension etc, but just for context
As an aside, as it's been mentioned a bit. 75% of the site workforce (not mine) are Eastern Europeans
You still don’t know how much the agency staff are getting paid. You know how much you’re paying the agency, but it might well be the agency are the only ones get a good deal.
This is what I figured with the dross the agency sent me - I was paying them £35p/hr but I wasn't getting anywhere near £35 quality. I found a one man band contractor/mechanical services and pay him £35 directly.
He's happy, his skill levels/attitude/work rate are exemplary.
His phone never stops ringing with work/job offers/previous work. I know I have to try and keep him as long as possible as I won't be able to get hold of him again in the future.
I do that by treating him as 'one of us' rather than just a contractor.
I know exactly how much they are getting £16/HR for 45hrs
I'm very surprised that the agency are only taking a cut of £3/hour when they'll have to be paying NI of ~£1.70/hour out of that. That doesn't match my experience at all.
They're paid £16/hr when the agency are taking £19/hr? The agency are taking £3 for themselves? If you say so, but I find it very hard to believe. When I worked agency best part of 30 years ago the agency were taking near enough £8 and I was getting £3 and a few pence out of that. Yes that was a long time ago but I can't see the agencies paying themselves less now than they did in the early 90's.
This is what I figured with the dross the agency sent me – I was paying them £35p/hr but I wasn’t getting anywhere near £35 quality. I found a one man band contractor/mechanical services and pay him £35 directly.
He’s happy, his skill levels/attitude/work rate are exemplary.
Sounds like he followed my example further back in the thread 😉
I know exactly how much they are getting £16/HR for 45hrs
So around £9 an hour less than others?
You are only paying sparks £16ph? For domestic work round my way they are £250 per day for self employed, if you can find one. At approx half of that I can't imagine you keep many sparks either!
I was paying £225 for brickies, who chose to turn up. I learnt pretty quick not to pay them weekly on a Friday, as they just buggered off on a massive bender and would show up some time tues or weds.
And, they had so much work they were turning stuff down all the time
I know exactly how much they are getting £16/HR for 45hrs
I don't know your industry but by comparison I met a lad who was manually operating some temporary traffic lights at some roadworks in town (ie his job was to stand there all day and flick a switch every couple of minutes). We got chatting whilst I was stopped there on my bike and after I remarked that it must be an extremely boring job he replied that at £32/hour he didn't care. Think you might need to pay a bit more?
We got chatting whilst I was stopped there on my bike and after I remarked that it must be an extremely boring job he replied that at £32/hour he didn’t care. Think you might need to pay a bit more?
From what I've been told, traffic management is just a huge money making operation.
3 men , 3 sets of lights and a pickup was charged out at £30K a month ( to the NHS )
It was only really needed at 2 periods of the day, 8-9am and 4-6pm, so they were just sat in the pickup between those times doing sweet FA.
he replied that at £32/hour he didn’t care
I think it would be better if we talked in a unit of measurement that gave more reality to how badly or stupidly well paid people are paid. Could work for road workers right up to footballers and CEOs.
"I flick this switch on the traffic lights - It's boring but I'm on 2 nurses an hour"
"Tough old training session working on my headers, then a massage and an autograph session signing my 'autobiography' I got a bit of a sweat on but I'm on 1200 nurses"
"I switched some money about and talked some bollox with a client and had lunch with my old school mucka Blowers. Tough stuff eh, for only 500 nurses"
or
"I got up at 11 and watched homes under the hammer. Not a great life on benefits but I'm on 1/3 of a nurse for doing jack so not all bad"
or even
"yeah I mostly tell people to turn it off and on again. Boring as hell but I'm on 2 nurses and mostly surf STW".
Pile em high, sell em cheap – negotiating the margin and meeting targets being the overwhelming priority.
Depends somewhat on the agency and their prospective clients and candidates, but yes margins are important and targets are omnipresent like most businesses.
Deliberately recommending candidate x instead of y to an employer because the current employer of x was more likely to engage them to fill the space so poaching from your own employer clients was positively encouraged.
Any recruitment consultant worth their salt would put both forward for interview if both x and y are happy to do so.
When I’ve done agency work, the cut they’ve been taking has been half or more. i.e. they charge £20 and pay £10. For as long as employment lasts. That’s been over a year in some cases. I get that there’s been some screening, and yes, they should charge for that, but interviews have consisted of “can you show up at 8am?” – that doesn’t seem like a lot of value for money.
The value is for the employer, you are a Temp, they retain a level flexibility that they do not have if thy took you on Perm. If they wanted to make you perm they would have arranged a Temp to Perm (generally involves a fee).
The value is for the employer, you are a Temp, they retain a level flexibility that they do not have if thy took you on Perm. If they wanted to make you perm they would have arranged a Temp to Perm (generally involves a fee).
Yeah. I get that. But trying to claim they add value by a rigourous screening and interview process such that they warrant garnishing 100% of the end salary is a stretch.
As someone who's a freelancer/temp its worth mentioning that in the present economic climate you get treated like absolute shit by a lot of employers.
As an example, I had a job starting next Monday for the next few weeks thats been booked in for a while. I just got an email this afternoon saying they now don't need me any more so its all off. No explanation, just one sentence. It might as well have been two words, the second being 'off'.
This is absolutely standard nowadays. I'm already half-waiting for the email I'll inevitably get on Tuesday morning saying 'actually, we do need you after all. Can you come in now'
Erm... no
So when you're treated like this by a lot of employers, its hardly shocking that there's no loyalty. What do they expect? It needs to be earned, yet it appears to be somehow expected in the one-way street of modern temporary employment
Yeah. I get that. But trying to claim they add value by a rigourous screening and interview process such that they warrant garnishing 100% of the end salary is a stretch.
They are still processing your timesheet, paying your Tax, NI, paying you, etc it's not just the interview and placement process, and you could have left at any time for perm job/another temp job paying slightly more...but I think you knew that.
Basically your staff will be finding work which pays comparatively similar wages but better working conditions elsewhere. Working outside at the moment has not been particularly appealing, I've struggled to the point that I'm now considering more office based roles.
As an example, I had a job starting next Monday for the next few weeks thats been booked in for a while. I just got an email this afternoon saying they now don’t need me any more so its all off. No explanation, just one sentence. It might as well have been two words, the second being ‘off’.
We pay, and expect our freelancers to demand, a minimum 10% booking fee or if cancelled within 20 days of delivery they get 50%, if cancelled within 7 days they get 100%.
Our customers of course are on the same contract.
Sorry, this is OT. Surely leaders in the mountains with a group, while not actually doing walking about, navigation training, minor first aid etc. are still working, as in being responsible for safety, welfare and such. Should they not be getting proper rates of pay for this too?
Apparently it's a desirable job we should do for love.
And welcome to the world of outdoor adventure industry.
Workers will always talk about what they’re getting paid.
Oh yes, I was on a big project in 2022, 6 of us had been there for 6 months +, doing an excellent job, then the Management employed 5 more agency staff to get one wing finished early, with around 3 months left for the site. We found out they were on £4/hr more than us (£200/wk), and were, basically, rubbish, and kept making mistakes, which the long term workers had to fix, while the new workers went on to mess up another wing. We got together, told the boss that we were finishing if we didnt get the same money, he folded, and paid us within a hour.
As it happens, it left a bad taste for all of us, I was the only one of the originals working there 6 weeks later, as we just couldnt trust the Boss. All but one of the Agency Staff also left, they had no commitment, so a job with a longer lifespan appealed more to them. The Boss was desperate for Staff, but couldnt get anyone for the final 2 weeks of the Contract, so we got a lot of overtime at 1.5 times pay, as we wouldnt work for any less.
I've worked as a ropetech for quite a while. Mainly as a subby then supervising subbies. Many times being a subby supervising other subbies.
Many of my colleagues were atrocious, complete oxygen theives, Worse than a man down, you know the drill. Their work ethic was crap, standard of work even worse, always looking for every opportunity to shortcut the job to get away early, why did they remain on the job. We were required to have xxx many guys in harnesses.
matt_outandabout
Full Member
No women applied.This is not the fault of the women.
And your point is?
Apparently it’s a desirable job we should do for love.<br />And welcome to the world of outdoor adventure industry.
Many of us had passions that we thought maybe we could make a career out of. It takes a particular kind of mentality to follow through with it.
The point was that society is set up in such a way that there are only a few people who are able to make a career out of their hobbies or passions. Most simply don't have the risk taking instincts to follow through, thanks to the 'work or starve' based economy we have created.
However, even if Universal Basic Income is implemented, I reckon painters are still going to get paid more than mountain leaders. In fact, I reckon painters will end up getting even more as the competition to be a mountain leader will greatly increase once failure doesn't mean destitution, while UBI means people won't be forced to paint houses just to survive.
I'll say what I say to everyone who suggests that a profession with a relatively low barrier to entry is overpaid. If the level of sacrifice compared to the level of pay is so low then go and paint people's houses. It sounds like you'll be happier.
I know this is a middle-class safe space so the highly trained and probably highly educated enthusiastic mountain leader should be getting paid more than the untrained uneducated working class oik but sometimes the world is just deeply unfair to middle class people. Who knew?
met a lad who was manually operating some temporary traffic lights at some roadworks in town (ie his job was to stand there all day and flick a switch every couple of minutes). We got chatting whilst I was stopped there on my bike and after I remarked that it must be an extremely boring job he replied that at £32/hour he didn’t care.
Universal Basic Income would never work as people would be paid to do nothing.
Umm, wait...
There is currently a skills gap at all levels. We're running at over 10% vacancies in HE at the moment, we can't get all sorts of staff and at quality.
no idea what the agency give them
That is the problem right there
I think things are beginning to overheat in the UK Labour market. Big skills gaps that education and employers can't/won't fill. Shock-effects of recent policy decisions destabilising any progress. Public sector already at MAX. No room for fiscal tinkering. Lots of people 'in-work' are wildly un-productive. What a mess!
Many of my colleagues were atrocious, complete oxygen theives, Worse than a man down, you know the drill. Their work ethic was crap, standard of work even worse, always looking for every opportunity to shortcut the job to get away early, why did they remain on the job.
This does appear to be becoming far more common, along with people managers who can't manage.
My previous employer had a couple 'technicians', who's standard of work was abysmal, cut as many corners as they could, and that's if they turned up. Combine that with a pair of foremen who were glued to their seats in the office, and who's idea of a QC was finding a job card, then ticking the boxes to say the QC had been passed (we did laugh the day one of the tech's passed a QC, then had the vehicle quite spectacularly fail an mot), along with a manager who's spine would struggle against a wet paper bag, leads to destruction of staff moral of those who actually work.
I've always been of the attitude, that if you're being paid to do a job, you do it. If you don't want to do it, then don't expect to be paid for not doing it.
That is the problem right there
Don’t worry he suddenly knew.
So what you’re saying is, you’re doing everything as well as you can and don’t really need any advice?
I missed the bit where I asked a load of WFH IT consultants how to run a boots on the ground construction business.
Had I asked for advice it would have been pretty pointless as anything I've pointed out as reasoning as to why people are paid differently, paying actual reasonably money for hours worked (and hours not worked), rewarding decent workers etc has been ignored in favour of picking out headline points to have snippy digs. Skewed theories that the workers are 'guaranteed' getting minimum wage at best, which when I pointed out wasn't the case was treated as though I was potentially lying. Or after multiple posts stating that the mercenary agency were stealing their livings, then stating that the agency must in fact be rubbish if they are only taking £3/HR. Make your minds up.
For the record, the regular lads get £180/day when they are working for me local, so on a level playing field, I'd be paying the agency more.
Pretty much what I'd expect from a socialist audience that don't seem to like employers very much though. Pay everyone more, in fact give your labourers tradesmen's wages right from the off, doesn't matter if they are any good or not.
You are only paying sparks £16ph? For domestic work round my way they are £250
No, that's the JIB industry standard rate. I generally pay £250 upwards for sparks
and find themselves encouraged to fully commit to doing their best work?
Well, a new starter turned up stoned this morning, so probably not.
Don’t worry he suddenly knew.
That would be because sometime not long after my post where I didn't know, I had a conversation to tell the one decent guy that I'd be sorting him something extra for his graft and I asked him. He told me he'd already asked the agency to be put up to £17's. Speaking to the agency gaffer later in the day, he told me that he had put his money up. As someone pointed out earlier, the agency is their contractual employer, not me
Whatever, it seems a damn sight harder to get people to come and work than it was a few years ago. This is echoed by other contractors too.
Had a guy turn up this morning says he got laid off a job due to a H&S issue and the site getting shut, has his SMSTS and numerous plant tickets, yet he can't find work anywhere
Yes you're right, everyone else is wrong, and it's a complete mystery why you can’t get the staff you want.
Pretty much what I’d expect from a socialist audience that don’t seem to like employers very much though.
Nearly every post has been advice about the reality of the market. Nothing about socialism at all. Your temporary workers hired through an agency have to act according to the market they are in. They are not your staff.