You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Currently building a 30mw solar farm in Essex. I use some sub contract, some lads I've used on jobs for years and some agency staff.
Out of around a dozen semi-skilled and skilled agency workers that have either promised to turn up and haven't, or have turned up and subsequently walked, I have one that's stuck it for three weeks so far. Some are gone by lunchtime on their first day
This isn't my first rodeo, been doing this for 8+ years on and off. 7-8 years ago, could get men no problem and they'd stick it out, would usually get a couple that were no use.
It's muddy, it's work in a field in winter, no one hides that fact from them before they come.
Talking to other people in the industry, it seems a common factor lately - either can't get the guys out they just aren't interested. Something's changed
If you have a CSCS card and aren't afraid of work, I have some available 🤣
Something’s changed
Wonder what that could be
We're at almost full employment, for those that can and want to work at least. I suspect there are easier, better paid, whatever, jobs available and while they might have taken the job at the time, if another comes up afterwards that doesn't involve being in a muddy field in winter....
Something’s changed
Theres a skills/labour shortage which means people who are available to work have plenty of choice. People are either getting a better offer, or have no concern that a better offer will be around the corner.
In the past 'sticking it out' might not have been loyalty or ethic - maybe just hunger and insecurity. In the past people might have felt lucky to get the work, now they know they are your luck.
What are you paying?
What are you paying?
I pay the agency £19/HR for semi skilled, £26 for plant operators, no idea what the agency give them
My semi skilled lads £225/day plus digs, supervisor £300-350/day dependant on the site
Building power infra? Are you competitive with the likes of HPC? If not...
That's confusing me. Assuming an 8 hr day your lads are getting £225 plus digs whilst the same grade agency staff are getting £152 less agency fees so probably £122 and no accommodation? Sound about right?
Trenchfoot?
Agency labour in construction is frankly poor at the moment and has been getting worse for years.
We get electricians on site who can't read basic drawings, have zero initiative - half the time I'd be better off getting back on the tools and doing it myself (and I haven't been on the tools for nearly 25 years!). I think a lot of them have re-trained as sparkles and have only ever done domestic work - same with Plumbers.
Although a lot of direct staff are the same, so called "Construction Manager's" and "Site/Services Coordinators" who haven't got a clue because they've never actually worked on site as an apprentice or through a trade and have just been to College.
Saying that I was sat at some temporary traffic lights the other day and they were out of sync so fairly chaotic with some near misses - said to the orange clad "operative" leaning against his van messing on his phone that it was dangerous and needed sorting - he looked up from his phone, shrugged his shoulders and and said "F all to do with me..." and went back to candy crush.....
I go back to my point in the other thread about National Service......
Employ some women then. They may work harder and be more reliable.
It sounds like your (potential) operatives feel they aren't getting enough money in their wallets after taxes & expenses etc.
Add in the rising cost of living, travel costs to the site, cost of eating out each day and a bit of beer money etc. then I'd say it's quite understandable that good reliable operatives are few & far between. Plus add an agency that skims off the top for doing very little, poor working conditions & a company that has possibly quoted the project a bit low so they win the job......
Don't forget that good reliable operatives will already be working for a company that pays better than you, appreciates their valued experienced operatives, keeps their operatives in regular work and provides a works van & fuel card. Whilst this isn't criticism of you, it might be the way the industry works and as such, the odd labour pinch point always occurs. You have my sympathies and I hope you manage to find suitable labour and complete the project on budget. Good luck.
Plenty of good, young, keen workers available. But the old, retired, national service loving buggers insist we don't need them here.
If you can't recruit, you arent paying enough.
If you can't retain, the pay isnt good enough to endure the conditions. Increasing the pay may only delay churn rather than prevent if you do nothing about the conditions side of the equation.
The mean 'attractive' pay and conditions is relative to the rest of the economy as a whole, not the historical baseline for whatever your business is. So 'whats changed' might be elsewhere.
I've seen this from both sides - i've recruited from academia, who were paid peanuts and treated like crap, given them big pay rises and way more flexibilty. I've also had big tech turn up on my doorstep and offer 2x what I could, along with all the free yoga etc.
Pretty horrible when the external salary pressure puts your costs beyond what customers will pay though!
"That’s confusing me. Assuming an 8 hr day your lads are getting £225 plus digs whilst the same grade agency staff are getting £152 less agency fees so probably £122 and no accommodation? Sound about right?*
9hr day (about 7.5-8 actually worked), no breaks deducted, agency guys are local and don't need digs/subsistence.
Money is explicitly not to be discussed on site as it causes issues. Agency dictate the rate. As it happens, the one decent lad who gets stuck in and has stayed has been told I'll be sorting him some extra out without involving the agency.
My lads know the job, have to think about where to run cables, have some sort of plan in their heads, hit targets. The agency lads are here to give a helping hand with little responsibility other than working safely.
It doesn't seem that surprising to me. You're paying your permanent staff twice what the agency workers are earning, plus accommodation / pension / bonus(?) / etc. Pay a fair wage and you'll get your workers.
Also, can't be a big farm if it's only 30mW, my calculator can generate more power than that. So there's no point complaining about your employees being sloppy if you're running the site and don't understand the units.
Money is explicitly not to be discussed on site as it causes issues.
Always a sign to me that there's something to hide, and the tip of a culture in an organisation.
Bloody immigrants going there and leaving our jobs.
Always a sign to me that there’s something to hide, and the tip of a culture in an organisation.
Yep, that's ****ing nonsense.
For clarity not you Matt talking nonsense.
TBH honest you don't sound like someone I'd want to work for.
If you have multiple workers leaving regularly that suggests it’s not the workers that’s the problem.
Can I check something, so feedback from hirers/‘employers’/‘managers’ please
If two people turned up and one was good, worked well and made few mistakes and the other was slower and made lots more mistakes what would the difference in their pay be (*honest answers please) and how would this differential be impacted over a longer timescale.
I’m asking as ime, in many, many cases the difference would be nothing, so speaking as someone who did things properly I often felt shafted for getting it right first time. (Software, I got my salary, people who did shit software got the much same salary plus overtime to fix their bugs and incurred lots of extra costs to the company in terms of support, rereleases etc etc) , so when I saw this was the case I simply moved on.
Also, can’t be a big farm if it’s only 30mW, my calculator can generate more power than that. So there’s no point complaining about your employees being sloppy if you’re running the site and don’t understand the units.
30 million watts....
400 kilometers of cable
55000 solar panels
5 inverters
117 connection boxes with 16 circuits out of each
Not the biggest by a stretch, but big enough
It's not me that doesn't understand units you condescending fool. Apologies for not using capital MW, but then you knew what I meant, didn't you?
It doesn’t seem that surprising to me. You’re paying your permanent staff twice what the agency workers are earning,
Err, no, I'm not and they aren't permanent staff
And as I've e pointed out there's a difference in the requirements
Also, can’t be a big farm if it’s only 30mW, my calculator can generate more power than that. So there’s no point complaining about your employees being sloppy if you’re running the site and don’t understand the units.
How big is your calculator? https://www.sse.com/news-and-views/2022/01/sse-acquires-its-first-30mw-solar-project-in-its-role-as-the-uk-s-clean-energy-champion/
My semi skilled lads £225/day plus digs, supervisor £300-350/day dependant on the site
Thanks, gives me some more ammunition for my up & coming salary negotiations with peeps who took over my employers.
who haven’t got a clue because they’ve never actually worked on site as an apprentice or through a trade and have just been to College.
That may be down to the construction industry not funding training sufficiently. Many years ago I kept hearing we put in for a course but CITB had no more funds whenever I was asking about competence issues.
The reliance on overseas labour and poor training is now coming home to roost for the industry.
Workers will always talk about what they're getting paid. I worked for a national retail outlet that had the same rules. It exists to shaft the workers and benefit the employer.
I go back to my point in the other thread about National Service……
The point that you made and many of us came along and told you that you were talking bollox, that point?
Looks like something else you don't understand - Brexit 2016 & Tory 2019 by any chance?
I'm experiencing the exact same lacklustre and finding it very difficult to recruit the right calibre of employee. We've premises in the north west and and the south east and find the lack of skills from people in the 20's is extraordinary. a lot are infantile still and don't seem to have any work ethic. Quite strange when compared to recruiting a decade ago.
We get electricians on site who can’t read basic drawings, have zero initiative –
You think you've got problems. The OP underestimated the size of this job by a factor of a billion. The agency workers probably assumed it would be finished by lunchtime the first day, so arranged another job for the afternoon
I may be waay off the mark here, but weren't you a climate change denier/skeptic?! Seems like an interesting twist of fate.
I suppose if workers are getting paid a crap rate by the agency, then eventually they'll just go and work in a supermarket or something? Aldi pay pretty well, and you're not in a cold muddy field. Plus pension, sick pay etc.
The absolute shower of trades that I've encountered in the past 2 years on a couple of domestic projects that we've done indicates that it's very much a sellers.....so hard to get anyone to turn up as they're all juggling so much work, then they do and the work that they do is varrying shades of passable to utter crap. No bother though, on to the next job and repeat.
Sounds like just the sort of agency work I've walked out of after half a day or a day. Just enough time to work out what's going on and not wanting to be a part of it. When you work for an agency you soon get to work out which contracts are worth doing. If the pay was high enough I took work others wouldn't, the most I got paid was working for/with the Mormons, nobody else would go.
The entire construction industry is in crisis. Even the big blue chip companies are struggling to hold on to a consistent and reliable workforce as staff can now just drift to wherever the better money and conditions are.
But this was one of the main aims of brexit wasn't it? Removal of all the "foreigners taking up jobs" So now thats been done your gonna have the pay a lot more to attract and retain.
This has nothing to do with millennials being lazy, or benefits being too good or the need for national service (or any other excuse the small minded can reach for) its simple supply and demand. We reap what we sow.
Strong Work Ethic always equals Willing to be Shafted whenever I hear it from an employer. I had a boss like that once. Biggest prick of a boss I have ever had. He tried to put me on a performance management programme because I wouldn't go over my paid hours. HR quickly put him right on that one. That company had the highest rate of employee turnover I have ever seen, and as soon as I'd paid for our wedding I was off.
Yeah the not discussing wages thing is a sure sign that the employer is shafting someone.
Pay more money.
I’m experiencing the exact same lacklustre and finding it very difficult to recruit the right calibre of employee. We’ve premises in the north west and and the south east and find the lack of skills from people in the 20’s is extraordinary. a lot are infantile still and don’t seem to have any work ethic. Quite strange when compared to recruiting a decade ago.
Is the problem you're highlighting actually an issue with THEIR parents, these 20 y/o, and how they've been brought up? As we've 3 sons in their 20's, all grafters and all with good jobs - a bit like their parents 🙂
Or is it actually highlighting a far bigger societal issue, the environment of the UK just doesn't reward young folk enough to GAS. They realise that far too many of their parents & grandparents don't believe in the common good anymore and they're going to get shafted for life, a bit like their forefathers were (before the post-war consensus)?
It's not my sector by all means but I'm going to assume it's a case of effort/pay, as in if the job is more effort than another but the pay doesn't reflect that then in their shoes they're going to think "why bother? why do harder graft, get covered in mud, soaked through and not get paid anymore than an easier job that steves asked me to do this week"
I left a job I was at for 4 years where I was wearing 6 different hats in a management position, I was on-call 24/7x365 and the only benefit was a guaranteed 3k bonus for that every April and if I'd been drinking or was away then it was accepted I wouldn't stop to do work, I loved working there, got on with everyone, had fully intended on staying there for many more years but, I got wind of a Team Leadership role somewhere else paying 16k more, less responsibilities, no on call, less hands on work, 1 hat to wear so I applied for it, got it n took it. A year later they ended up forcing a return to office 4 days a week and changed contract with sign it or be made redudant which I didnt agree with (my team was geographically dispersed so no face-to-face at all) so I left, now in another IT management position wearing 2 hats, only had a 4k pay bump from the last one but I'm also saving 4k on commuting so, compared to where I was 3 years ago, I'm now wearing 4 less hats, no on call, fully remote and I'm 24k better off for it. It seems a lot of people in other sectors are also doing the same, looking to do less and get more if you know what I mean.
It's almost like people have realised getting paid shite all for the profit of others knowing they will never be able buy a house or anything nice isn't worth working hard.
But if they are lucky they might get to move out of their parents house by 30.
Yeah the not discussing wages thing is a sure sign that the employer is shafting someone.
Pay more money.
This is an instruction to my lads.
Because no one factors in the fact that they are working 180 miles from home, a percentage of their wage is to cover subsistence and they have different responsibilities to the agency guys.
As soon as the headline number gets mentioned, it causes issues without any consideration as to why.
As I've stated, the agency guy who has proved himself for a couple of weeks is getting some extra
This is an instruction to my lads.
Because no one factors in the fact that they are working 180 miles from home, a percentage of their wage is to cover subsistence and they have different responsibilities to the agency guys.
These are intelligent adults, right? They can work this stuff out for themselves. Your attitude to your workers speaks volumes.
@intheborders - you've raised three diamonds!
<br />It's quite odd and obviously not knowing their parents etc it's a difficult to comment.
Back to the OP though, when at various meetings there is a general theme that good people are getting harder and harder to find especially with the younger people coming up. Quite sad and worrying really.
I've been looking for a mechanical bench fitter to help install £1m of pumps/piping, new shiny gear, indoors, good working conditions/hours etc.
The agency supplied people were absolutely useless, good at nattering rubbish at actually working. Found a really good guy via word of mouth. I'm paying £35 per hour direct. Previously for pipework install jobs I'd be paying semi.skilled and skilled/coded £45+ p/hr but I don't know what cut the contracting engineering company was taking.
when at various meetings there is a general theme that good people are getting harder and harder to find especially with the younger people coming up. Quite sad and worrying really.
Depends on how you look at it.
I suspect we are at a crossroads where the system we've all been living under is in the process of breaking down. It is no longer sustainable.
There are two ways it can go. On the one hand we can figure out a way of making society work for everyone and, hopefully, put an end to the plethora of bullshit jobs. And end the bullshit tasks that seem to make up the majority of jobs that aren't simply 100% bullshit.
The other option is that we regress and figure out how to force people to spend the majority of their lives living in indentured servitude.
The second option would help the OP and other current employers more, I'd agree with that. So if you are an employer it's definitely something to keep in mind at the next election.
“Why can’t I find willing workers for outdoor work in poor conditions on minimum wage via an agency contract at a time of high employment?”
I'm hearing the same thing regarding getting workers in all areas of the construction industry, particularly where we are in the South East.
I run a small construction services company and we've been fighting a losing battle for years. We're shrinking because we just can't get the staff we need. Offering £50k-60k +van, fuel card etc, for mobile installers/fitters, but getting nowhere.
We were trying to recruit school/college leaver trainees, 16-18yrs old, offering £25k apprenticeships, we got 1 applicant from the local technical college...
I would be interested to know how many apprentices are directly employed by all these employers complaining about lack of good staff.
Money is explicitly not to be discussed on site as it causes issues.
Huge red flag that is, huge. Why would it cause issues if everyone was getting paid fairly?
There are generally 3 things to think about when you're losing people. The work, the boss and the pay. You can sometimes get away with 1 of those things not being good, but if it's 2 you've got no chance. For example, if the pay is crap but it's an interesting job with a great boss people might stay. Or of the boss is a prat but it pays well and is an interesting job then again, people may well stay.
From what the OP has posted, the pay isn't good, the job is hard work and I'm not sure how good a boss he is. Basically, until things change you're stuffed.
They are likely getting under min wage after agency cut to work in the rain, under 0 degrees, with sub par safety.
Likely a long commute, long walk from parking (if they can afford a car), no showers, toilets, cafe or warm place nearby.
The market for good people decides what that is worth and it’s more than you are paying. It’s very likely it’s not just cash you’re falling short on. Maybe in summer you can get away with it.
I’m experiencing the exact same lacklustre and finding it very difficult to recruit the right calibre of employee. We’ve premises in the north west and and the south east and find the lack of skills from people in the 20’s is extraordinary.
No one is going to take on debt to train up for you in this climate. Train them yourselves and be certain that they have had the training necessary for your needs. The days of going to the shelf for a new LGV driver, fitter or electrician are past. Get on and spend some money, no one running a business is entitled to a free ride, no one.
I don't think this is all on OP.
There is a change in the workforce - expectations, skills, attitudes, numbers of people looking etc. We have found it in our sector. The solution is not just wages - we are amongst the highest salary in our sector and definitely highest freelance rate, and our last staff satisfaction survey saw a 99%+ satisfaction rate, and our feedback from team is amazing. Yet still we have higher than liked turnover of staff - skewed by a struggle to recruit in the first place and a high initial 'come for a few weeks and leave'. We see in recruitment a real dropping in numbers of quality candidates and a real increase in people with absolutely no relevant experience or skills applying (as we are seen as a desirable organisation and industry).
That said, we cannot change the world, we can only change what we do as a recruiter and employer. And we are putting in much effort here at present.
Agency work makes you a mercenary. Someone offers you more money you go to them on no notice to current employer as you know the agency will try it's best to shaft you. Saw it all the time when I did site work.
I would be interested to know how many apprentices are directly employed by all these employers complaining about lack of good staff.
My first apprentice is now my invaluable right hand man. Replaced him with another early 20's lad with a view to similar training to succession plan me but he wasn't of the right calibre - moved him into the general maintenance workshop instead where he's happy. Replaced him with another 19year old. This one did a few years at a shit local company so knows what bad is like, he's switched on and I think will do okay but early days yet. This is very specialised COMAH site with very few spare people in the industry - you have to train them up in-house/day release college.
We also have an apprentice sparky in the general maintenance dept who is doing well.
If you are taking on people on a self employed basis via an agency then why would you expect them to have any loyalty to the company they are working for.
That wasn't directed at anyone in this thread really. Just a general comment. Seems to be alot of expectation for people to arrive ready formed.
On the one hand we can figure out a way of making society work for everyone and, hopefully, put an end to the plethora of bullshit jobs
Agree to making society work for everyone but need to keep my bullshit job for another 10 years first please.
Sounds like due to shortages of employees you're now scraping the bottom of the barrel, whereas in the past you had a choice.
The answers the OP needs have already been given, but I thought I'd offer some perspective on what it's like to be such an agency worker. I did all sorts of jobs when I left school, all of them crap, and signed up to an agency for a while. On one job, we found out that the employer was paying over £8 an hour per person, and we were getting £3.20. Job agencies exist solely to profit from exploitation. On some of the better jobs, some of us might be asked quietly to come back and get paid directly, cash in hand, without the agency being involved. Productivity always increased in proportion to pay. Most jobs seldom lasted more than a few days, although some workers found longer term employment at some of the better employers (I think many companies just used the system as a way of screening potential employees anyway). Churn through the agency was huge; for most it was just a stepping stone to something less shit. Most of the time, we'd do the absolutely bare minimum, and slack off as much as possible. Conditions were often crap, and sometimes downright dangerous and illegal. Supervisors could be really horrible; fights were not uncommon. I lasted until the end of summer, got a couple of cushy numbers paid directly by the employer, and sacked it off at the end of the summer to go to college and subsequently university. But I'm glad of the experience; it taught me to have empathy and solidarity for and with my fellow humans.
It’s almost as if something happened around 2016 to cut us off from a vast reserve of high quality workers…
Without wanting to turn this into another brexit waste of time, that was entirely the point wasn't it? One of the central aims of brexit was to improve the wages of workers and provide more employment opportunities. In this case if agency staff are leaving because they can get higher paid work with better conditions elsewhere then you can argue that brexit is working exactly as it was intended. It's not the workforce that has changed, it's the economy and the market. If businesses don't adapt to that change then they're going to struggle, as seems the case here.
you can argue that brexit is working exactly as it was intended
Wages have lowered in real terms. So yes; Brexit has worked as intended. Intended by its architects, rather than all those who voted for it though.
Before I got my stuff together I worked as a brickie in the late 80s and it took 7 days net normal working day to pay my rent. 225 a day doesn't sound to bad in comparison.
Just to add that churn in the late 80's was just as acute - we had the term lunch workers as they were gone by lunch.
No idea where they went.
agency guys are local and don’t need digs
But they're still paying rent, right? Round here a room in a shared student house is about £600 a month or £20 a day.
At roughly £100 after accommodation costs per day Vs £225 a day, it's easy to see why one group might be feeling disillusioned.
however, I think that we can all agree that the topic title doesn't accurately reflect the actual situation.
Wages have lowered in real terms.
Have they? In this case it sounds like the employer can't recruit or retain workers because they can find better options elsewhere. Seems like he thinks that's because workers are ****less and lazy, which may be the case. Even if it is the latter, the architects of brexit would argue that this inherent unproductivity of the UK workforce is a problem that needs solving rather than brushing under the carpet by importing foreign workers. It's a complex problem though, how to balance the needs of an economy with the needs of the working population?
Even if it is the latter, the architects of brexit would argue that this inherent unproductivity of the UK workforce is a problem that needs solving rather than brushing under the carpet by importing foreign workers.
I'm fairly certain the architects of Brexit couldn't give a damn about "unproductivity" or what's best for British workers.
Without wanting to turn this into another brexit waste of time, that was entirely the point wasn’t it? One of the central aims of brexit
At the same risk this was the problem of schrodingers brexit. That was the aim of some but not others. Tim Martin for example wanted to keep free movement the same but get rid of the laws which annoyed him.
For OP: I suggest you ask that agency worker exactly how much he is taking home after the agencies cut. I suspect it might surprise you and explain the lack of enthusiasm.
Have they?
For most people, yes. Plus living costs are still rising rapidly.
In this case it sounds like the employer can’t recruit or retain workers because they can find better options elsewhere. Seems like he thinks that’s because workers are ****less and lazy, which may be the case.
This is why I offered an alternative perspective on things. Shit work, for shit money, in shit conditions is hardly incentive to bust a gut, is it? Especially if other workers are earning twice as much as you and have much better conditions. For whatever these agency workers are getting paid, they can possibly get the same elsewhere but in better conditions. If I had to work for minimum wage, I'd be looking for the easiest gig possible. Because minimum wage is the same whether you're slogging your guts out in a freezing field, or dossing around in some huge warehouse, or stacking shelves in a supermarket. What would you do?
I’m fairly certain the architects of Brexit couldn’t give a damn about “unproductivity” or what’s best for British workers.
It was pretty much the central economic claim of brexit that British workers would be better off by cutting off the supply of cheap labour from the EU (the cheaper parts, that is). Whether the people behind brexit actually care or not is something of a moot point. The debate about productivity is how to resolve it. Obviously the brexiteers think it's a case of cutting off the supply of cheap labour and letting the market do it's work. That doesn't seem to be working too well as in this case the market hasn't adapted to the new reality and is still wanting to pay low wages. The other option is to pay people what they want and absorb the extra cost by either accepting lower profits or passing on the cost to the customer. Seems to me that the people running UK business want to have their cake and eat it.
They can get min wage working as junior doctors, why would they want to work in the cold and rain for the same money?
^^ Farage standing in front of a photoshopped queue of "millions Turkish people coming to the UK soon"... slagging off the RNLI for stopping people from drowning etc etc.
The motives were always clear and had nothing to do with improving workers lives or wages.
agency staff are getting £152 less agency fees so probably £122
My experience of agencies is that they'll take a *way* bigger cut than that. I'd be amazed if they were passing on more than minimum wage.
If I had to work for minimum wage, I’d be looking for the easiest gig possible. Because minimum wage is the same whether you’re slogging your guts out in a freezing field, or dossing around in some huge warehouse, or stacking shelves in a supermarket. What would you do?
I'd learn how to do the job well, then start my own company and offer my services to the OP at the rate he is paying the agency.
Only he's getting me as an enthusiastic worker at the same rate. Then after a short while , I would ask for a bit more on top, which he would be willing to pay as he knows he's getting better value for money . Maybe in the future , I would take it to the next level and grow my business and become a competitor for the OP 😉
Or maybe, I could just carry on , bumming around in a job I can't really be arsed to do on minimum wage and moan that i'm not getting paid as much as someone working in a supermarket
Yep as Dissonance said.. find out the real wage of your agency staff.
For me, you sound like you want to pay a fair day rate but you don't have any clue how much the agency are paying your workers. I think you should know that detail.