[Closed] UK state should pay for housing, food, transport and internet

You need to go to work to afford luxury items.

Can anyone point me at any literature that explains the concept fully?

Not having to work for things that are considered essentials for life. if you want the bells and whistles you can still go out to work. No-one would be stopping you. It's about saying right, here's what a human need to have a basic standard of living (what those things are are up for debate), lets make those a basic human needs become a human right, ie you don't need to sell you self just to exist.

If you want the latest tech, bike, to spent every night down the pub, you go out and work for it.

The capitalist system would still be in place. just some things would be exempt from that system.

So. Where is this £500 per month coming from?

Also if too many people decide that they can exist on the £500 where does the money come from to fund the £500.

With more people taking than putting in who will fund the NHS? Public services?

Nice idea but massively over simplified and totally unworkable in the current framework.

The 'state' should be as small as possible. Personal responsibility equates to freedom, and the opposite to freedom is the religion of victim hood - otherwise known as socialism.

Bollocks.

Personal responsibility does not equate to freedom at all. What the hell does that even mean?

The state needs to allow freedoms ,but prevent peopel from being taken advantage of by those with the means to do so. That is the biggest problem we have now.

Coyote - Member
So. Where is this £500 per month coming from?

It might be Poe's law in action, but a few people (Weeksy, trail-rat) should probably go and see [i]I Daniel Blake[/i]. Yes it's not a documentary, but it's very close to the mark if you've ever had the missfortune to have to sign on.

There number of people desperate for work far outnumber the Jeremy Kyle/Shameless contingent. Yes they exist, but it's not the average.

Internet though? That's not an essential.

So the question is, do you wish to be a Morlock or an Eloi?

we're mixing up UBI and this idea btw, not that they really should be separate mind you, UBI is probably the idea with some traction at the moment, the idea in the article is probably an extension or evolution of the UBI idea.

perchypanther - Member
So the question is, do wish to be a Morlock or an Eloi?

haha, great book. 😆

Yes but you wouldn't even have that - you'd have NO ready cash at all. You'd have to do at least some work, however small, to get that.

Yeah, I might do the odd fortnight every now and then if I wanted something special, I'm sure some retired people already do exactly that. But broadly speaking I wouldn't go to work. and with 60 extra hours a week in my life I'd to a lot more barter jobs. (I chop my neighbours logs and he rebuilds my wheels in exchange. I'd deffo take up fishing and eating the catch.)

...and I'd never need to pay a penny tax ever again.

the (state owned) machines will pay your tax for you.

hisisnotaspoon - Member

Internet though? That's not an essential.

I disagree, access to knowledge should be universal.

Coyote - Member
So. Where is this £500 per month coming from?

general taxation.

If more people take than contribute then this doesn't work.

I'm all for embracing automation, but it should be done to everyones benefit, not to a few.

You are aware of how the current world works? 🙂

Automation will start having a significant impact with 15 years, you read it here first!

It would be nice to think it would usher in a new egalitarian utopia but I'm not holding my breath

If more people get put out of a job due to automation or whatever, and the profits go to a few offshore tax havens, then the current system doesn't work either.

Automation will start having a significant impact with 15 years, you read it here first!

nah. tomorrows world told me that 30 yrs ago.

seosamh77 - Member

Not having to work for things that are considered essentials for life. if you want the bells and whistles you can still go out to work. No-one would be stopping you. It's about say right, here's what a human need to have a basic standard of living (what those things are are up for debate), lets make those a basic human needs become a human right, ie you don't need to sell you self just to exist.

If you want the latest tech, bike, to spent every night down the pub, you go out and work for it.

The capitalist system would still be in place. just some things would be exempt from that system.

Right, but all that happens is companies raise the prices to what the market will tolerate. Rolex have been the masters at doing this for years - they know exactly what their target market will pay for their brand, and as the upper-middle class has gotten richer, their watches have risen in relative price. (Despite Rolex introducing more automated manufacturing in their watches, with the costs per-watch getting "cheaper" as a result)

The same will happen in your scenario. If someone works for a month and get's £1000 of which they can spend fully on exactly what they want, suddenly a pair of nice shoes costs £1000. It's only a months work right? How badly do you want those shoes?

Santa Cruz would still go the high end market, so suddenly a Santa Cruz bike costs £200k because thats what the high end target market can afford now their living costs are £0.

So you've ended up working the same amount of time to save up for the same thing.

And don't even begin to think that companies wont raise their prices to meet what the market can afford - because that's one of the core concepts of capitalism.

So. Where is this £500 per month coming from?

The magic socialist money tree.

richmtb - Member
I'm all for embracing automation, but it should be done to everyones benefit, not to a few.
You are aware of how the current world works?

All too aware, but it isn't set in stone and when a change happens it'll happen quicker than people think. whether that's for go or bad will depend on how it's planned for.

[quote=oldtalent ]
The magic socialist money tree.

is that planted next to the magic DUP money tree?

oldtalent - Member
So. Where is this £500 per month coming from?
The magic socialist money tree.

Tory sound bytes, of course how silly, definitely the answer.

access to knowledge should be universal.

Quite.

However, wouldn't this mean restrictions to only permit users to access 'suitable' resources?

If you want the latest tech, bike, to spent every night down the pub, you go out and work for it.

Well yes, if you want those things you have to work but for very short periods of time. I still think most of us would find we could manage without the latest bike in exchange for a lie in every morning and precious time spent with the kids.

...and if you don't need a job you don't need education. So even more savings. No student loans, more time with family. Everyone wins.

CaptainFlashheart - Member
access to knowledge should be universal.
Quite.

However, wouldn't this mean restrictions to only permit users to access 'suitable' resources?

steady on kim jong.. 😆

outofbreath - Member
If you want the latest tech, bike, to spent every night down the pub, you go out and work for it.
Well yes, if you want those things you have to work but for very short periods of time. I still think most of us would find we could manage without the latest bike in exchange for a lie in every morning and precious time spent with the kids.

...and if you don't need a job you don't need education. So even more savings. No student loans, more time with family. Everyone wins.

you've got quite a low opinion of people, eh?

Santa Cruz might would still go the high end market, so suddenly a Santa Cruz bike costs £20k because thats what the high end target market can afford now their living costs are £0.

Except in now costs £40k because the labour costs to design, manuufacture and distribute have gone through the roof in order to tempt the workers who tend the robots who make the bikes off their arses into the factory. ... and so the cycle ( pun intended) continues.

If more people take than contribute then this doesn't work.

You're just getting hung up on the detail.

I'm taking the helicopter view. No more work. No more tax. Just happy days spent living the good life.

1.45 million people are unemployed in the UK at the moment...

that's those that are allowed on the books. I suspect the real number is somewhat higher. Definition of unemployed for this purpose is someone of contributing (to society) age without a job/ worthwhile activity that benefits the community.

Who doesn't deserve a roof over their head and food on the table?

It's a tough one.

Sick/disabled?

Witches?

Homeless people?

Refugees?

Children of immigrants?

Grandchildren of immigrants?

****less ginger yoovs on mopeds?

you've got quite a low opinion of people, eh?

High opinion, you mean. Or or you saying spending time with my family is a lesser choice than working when I have no need to?

outofbreath - Member
If more people take than contribute then this doesn't work.
You're just getting hung up on the detail.

I'm taking the helicopter view. No more work. No more tax. Just happy days spent living the good life.

[quote=outofbreath ]
You're just getting hung up on the detail.
I'm taking the helicopter view. No more work. No more tax. Just happy days spent living the good life.

fancy a job as a brexit negotiator?

outofbreath - Member
you've got quite a low opinion of people, eh?
High opinion, you mean. Or or you saying spending time with my family is a lesser choice than working when I have no need to?

You just going to sit round the table with your family singing songs?

fancy a job as a brexit negotiator?

😀

You just going to sit round the table with your family singing songs?

If I didn't have to work? Yes, I would deffo spend a lot of evenings doing that. I suspect my whole neighbourhood would too. If we didn't have to work I'd be betting on a lot of social gatherings. Why not?

Well because your beloved capitalist system would still exist(albeit somewhat restricted from profiting on human essentials). Want would not disappear.

outofbreath - Member

If we didn't have to work I'd be betting on a lot of social gatherings. Why not?

Because your Universal Needs TM vouchers don't cover "social gatherings" as cheese and pineapple sticks and mini sausages are seen as luxuries, so therefore you need to go to work to afford them, and then why would you want to share your hard earned breadsticks with the lazy fekkers next door who do nothing all day?

(albeit somewhat restricted from profiting on human essentials).

Who is going to build and maintain this massive Social Housing stock?

I can assure you that I would be very much profiting from this.

FWIW i'm into the idea I just don't see how it could ever work unless we are at a Star Trek level of technology, but lets not forget thats a work of fiction.

anyhow, what's the point youse are making, that capitalism can only exist when it exploits basic human essentials? Here was me thinking the market was more robust than that....

Except in now costs £40k because the labour costs

At that price it's worth investing in robots, and after the initial investment the prices then come right down.....

At that price it's worth investing in robots, and after the initial investment the prices then come right down.....

Which robots? Those robots that I already mentioned? 😉

Except in now costs £40k because the labour costs to design, manuufacture and distribute have gone through the roof in order to tempt the workers who tend the [b]robots who make the bikes[/b] off their arses into the factory

Because your Universal Needs TM vouchers don't cover "social gatherings"

Social gatherings are free. Cultures that have nothing material at all gather round for a good old sing song.

cheese and pineapple sticks and mini sausages are seen as luxuries

Personally, I see them as food, but they aren't requirements for a social gathering, anyway.

TBH I think housing should be provided, there should be far more council housing with affordable rents which could be set nationally (so the market would decide we need more in the SE than the Middlesbrough for example). Combine that with a minimum wage (which is also set nationally) that actually works to provide a decent living for families (£10-£12?) which could be afforded by tax breaks for companies paying it (Amazon would still pay zero tax, but it's profits would stay in the UK economy via the wages).

With those two things, it should be possible to do any job anywhere in the country and not end up in poverty.

Transport I don't agree with, too open to abuse and impossible to make universal. I couldn't get a bus/train to where I now work, and making if I wasn't paying petrol I'd have no incentive to look for something more local (or save the polar bears).

I disagree, access to knowledge should be universal.

A good reason to get rid of the internet!

outofbreath - Member

Personally, I see them as food.

But in the concept of UBI and ensuring everyone has the "Basics required for life" I don't think lobster thermidor, 29 day aged rib eye, and mini sausages on cocktails sticks are in quite the same boat as say, cottage pie.

Would be a shame if this diverted attention away from the more interesting idea of a universal basic income replacing the current benefits system. But that won't happen either...

Agree, a universal basic income is a much better idea.

outofbreath - Member

but they aren't requirements for a social gathering, anyway.

So your social gatherings are a bunch of adults sat out on the street doing...... nothing?

Isn't that what bored teenagers do?

But in the concept of UBI and ensuring everyone has the "Basics required for life" I don't think lobster thermidor, 29 day aged rib eye, and mini sausages on cocktails sticks are in quite the same boat as say, cottage pie.

1) I love cottage pie.
2) If I don't have to go to work, then I can source my own lobsters at zero cost and only a medium bit of effort.

You're really not putting me off this plan. The more I think about it the more excellent free stuff I can think of to do.

outofbreath - Member

2) If I don't have to go to work, then I can source my own lobsters at zero cost and only a medium bit of effort.

Go on then, I'd love to hear how you're going to catch a lobster with absolutely no capital. You know they don't just chill out in the Thames, right?

I'm not trying to put you off the plan - I love the concept - I just don't think anyone really has a clue how to make it work and the current ideas look and sound a bit micky mouse.

So your social gatherings are a bunch of adults sat out on the street doing...... nothing?

I'm thinking Ceilidh.

You just don't need cash to have a great time.

What's stopping you doing that just now?

outofbreath - Member
So your social gatherings are a bunch of adults sat out on the street doing...... nothing?
I'm thinking Ceilidh.

where you getting the musicians and instruments?

Go on then, I'd love to hear how you're going to catch a lobster with absolutely no capital.

Sail out. Drop a creel. Sail back the next day. Pick it up.

That was my next move, seosamh77

Why would you not just do that now?

Oh right, because it's boring AF.

where you getting the musicians and instruments?

We'd do it ourselves. And with 60 extra hours a week to practice, we'd get pretty good.

outofbreath - Member
Go on then, I'd love to hear how you're going to catch a lobster with absolutely no capital.
Sail out. Drop a creel. Sail back the next day. Pick it up.

you going to build you own boat too? make you own creel?

outofbreath - Member

Sail out. Drop a creel. Sail back the next day. Pick it up.

You own a boat already? How do you pay for the mooring on someones land? Petrol? Or do you sail?

If you sail, how do you afford the safety equipment required for sailing? How do you afford to maintain your boat?

outofbreath - Member
where you getting the musicians and instruments?
We'd do it ourselves. And with 60 extra hours a week to practice, we'd get pretty good.

Good stuff, glad you've got the spirit of self education about you, you might even want to sell on some of those skills to other people, perhaps to the people making your boat and your keel.

My god, the capitalist system still works after all, who'd have thunk it. Perhaps it's resilient after all.

If you sail, how do you afford the safety equipment required for sailing? How do you afford to maintain your boat?

With all that time freed up, earning the cash for a boat would take weeks not years?

Failing that there's always a dugout canoe 🙂

Exactly, my point is people will still have to exchange services (work) for something (money) - and if there is still a system whereby people can earn money all that happens is inequality rises.

I can see a post-currency society working, but then again we need to be at such a high level of technology that any job that a person doesn't want to do is automated. Automating a coffee shop is one thing, automating the entire construction chain of an underground sewer expansion is something else entirely.

Malvern Rider - Member

With all that time freed up, earning the cash for a boat would take weeks not years?

Well no - because as per my previous post - everyone has more disposable income now so the manufacturers have put their prices up as their target market has more money to spend. So you end up working the same amount of time for the same thing.

Remember we are keeping capitalism.

No-one is arguing for economic equality..

The inflation problem is the biggest potential issue that I see.

But then again, if essentials are catered for, some things would have to be lowered in price to catch customers who have decided to work fewer hours for less cash. And they could be, because the suppliers costs would have come down.

Hmm.

I could handle inflation for non essential items, it would settle at a certain level, sure the market would dictate the correct level.

Well no - because as per my previous post - everyone has more disposable income now so the manufacturers have put their prices up as their target market has more money to spend.

Yay capitalism! If it works properly then it could take a lifetime to pay for that retirement dinghy mortgage 😉

Well no - because as per my previous post - everyone has more disposable income now so the manufacturers have put their prices up as their target market has more money to spend. So you end up working the same amount of time for the same thing.

Well, no again.

If you want a universal basic income, you have to pay for it. The reality would be you would be given ~£8k a year of benefits (a basic house + whatever) but the country would pay more tax. Most obvious way would be to abolish the tax free allowance.

so someone on the breadline at the moment earning ~£13k after tax would go to earning £6k and get £8k of benefits (numbers plucked out of the air to illustrate the point), and everyone above that point would pay slightly more but receive the same amount.

The problem would be the massive incentivization of cash in hand work. Currently, you might save VAT and the income tax on what you can spend as cash and the tax free allowance means low earners benefit nothing from cash in hand work. Higher tax and no allowance make that much harder.

With the added inefficientcies of moving money around some more

You own a boat already? How do you pay for the mooring on someones land? Petrol? Or do you sail? If you sail, how do you afford the safety equipment required for sailing? How do you afford to maintain your boat?

Yes. I can run a boat at zero cost indefinately, or at least for a very long time. But even if I couldn't I'd just have to give up eating Lobster. I've managed without lobster for my entire life to date, so I'd cope. If the only flaw you can think of is that I'd be able to start eating lobster but then have to stop when something that I couldn't repair on my boat got broken you're really not thinking hard enough!

The inflation problem is the biggest potential issue that I see.

That is a problem. But the real problem is giving everyone the means to completely stop paying tax or pay far less tax whilst also using tax to give everyone a house and food is flawed.

Good stuff, glad you've got the spirit of self education about you, you might even want to sell on some of those skills to other people,

Nope. I wouldn't work for cash - not least because nobody would have any becasue we wouldn't be working. There would be a bit of light bartering going on but not much else.

In a post work UK we would be like retired people are now. We'd have less money but more time to help each other out with reciprocal favors. We might do the odd bit of easy work as required.

I don't see a problem with doing work as required, sounds great to me. Sounds much better to me than a system where probably more than half the people in it work just to keep the system going.

Your arguments are ridiculous.

With the added inefficientcies of moving money around some more

This.

On average we all have to pay for our own house, food and internet. If on average we all continue to pay for our own house, food and internet but the state provide it then we're just adding a needless layer of indirection. If on average we aren't then where's it coming from?

thisisnotaspoon - Member

If you want a universal basic income, you have to pay for it. The reality would be you would be given ~£8k a year of benefits (a basic house + whatever) but the country would pay more tax. Most obvious way would be to abolish the tax free allowance.

so someone on the breadline at the moment earning ~£13k after tax would go to earning £6k and get £8k of benefits (numbers plucked out of the air to illustrate the point), and everyone above that point would pay slightly more but receive the same amount.

Forgive me if i'm not quite grasping this but that just sounds like our existing benefit system, just with extra steps, and with the poor getting poorer. (Less cash after benefits)

And that also requires people to work to raise that tax - isn't the whole point of UBI that people [b]don't[/b] have to work?

The inflation problem is the biggest potential issue that I see.

Trad economics suggests that only if there's new money being poured into the system in order to spread it around. If it's just "activity" (people will still spend the money in shops, and it'll be recirculated) then inflation isn't going to be a problem...However that argument doesn't seem to apply nowadays. Essentially this IS what the B.O.E has been doing for the banks (giving them free money) for the last decade or so, inflation isn't an issue currently...

Trad economics suggests that only if there's new money being poured into the system in order to spread it around.

That's my take. Giving everyone a massive incentive to make do with massively reduced cash spending is about as anti-inflationary as you can get.

People would think of ways to avoid work by going into hyper make-do-and-mend/barter mode and they'd have more time to repair stuff where before they'd buy new.

People would think of ways to avoid work by going into hyper make-do-and-mend/barter mode and they'd have more time to repair stuff where before they'd buy new.

I see that as a positive to this for the earth rather than wastefully making rich people richer.....

Interesting debate, and some interesting opinions.

Nice to read there are considerate nice people out there (molgrips) ... disappointing to read there are bitter horrible people out there (weeksy)

isn't the whole point of UBI that people don't have to work?

If people are just going to give up earning extra. Why do rich people keep earning? Are they a different breed from the rest of or something?

Why don't I cut back to 3 days a week. I could easily survive...

Not sure if inflation would occur, especially if people start quitting jobs.

UBI is happening in Finland I think. Actually iirc its jobseekers allowance no questions asked.

Wrong.
Firstly taxing the better off is immoral. Its unfair. Tax should be the same. If you are clever enough to earn more then you should be applauded not punished. Fair is treating all the same not according to some arbitrary need.
Secondly handouts should be valued. I would applaud any system that insists that any government hand out must be balanced by a contribution to the state. So no job equal a payment which in it turn must equal some form of service. Street cleaning, etc. Something with few skills so all can do.
Thirdly more money handed out means more exploitation. If the system had some control then maybe. I resent benefits being used to buy luxuries when I'm working for mine and so often others suffer. Eg Mum smoking and kids poorly clad. Why not, as must be possible in this day and age have benefits purely card based which can only be spent on the essentials? Of course this can be bypassed but it would help.

Oh yeah. Here we have the usual examples of those preaching love and cuddles to all being nasty to any who dare to oppose their views. Very nice!