It isnt a science. It is a social science.
lol
Is a glass of red wine good for you or not? So, it might be but it might not be.
I'm trying to find that list of foods the Daily Mail has said are simultaneously good and bad for you, but it seems to have disappeared...
it would be the same if you could if you wanted run experiments but the morals and ethics would be difficult
It was amusing when I did some psychology modules for my degree how often the professor said something along the lines of "whilst we would want to study this further we cant because the ethics committee wouldnt permit it nowadays".
Awkwardly several of those experiments are very well known but have also been increasingly challenged for their lack of rigour in design.
Sticking with psychology it is also amusing how much got rebranded as behavioural economics in order to get the bigger paychecks.
If y9ou cannot prove anything is it a science?
If y9ou cannot prove anything is it a science?
I guess that's why it falls more into the catagory of 'social science' rather than 'pure' science.
I mean, you can make projections and models based on certain assumptions, but, it all gets a bit fuzzy, quickly.
Like with pure science, we know that it takes a different amount of energy to boil one litre of water at sea level, than it does at the top of mount everest.
If y9ou cannot prove anything is it a science?
To a degree.
For example theoretical physics blurs the line since it moves into experimental physics once someone comes up with a way to test the theory and then after that it ends up as technology when someone practically implements the idea eg Einsteins theory of relativity started off as theoretical physics before being tested and then ended up being practically implemented in such things as gps.
Sadly economics doesnt generally follow such a path.
I don't care whether economics is a science or not, and due to all the inputs/outputs/externalities and so on predictions of what will happen when lever a is pulled is never going to be exact. The thing that matters to me are the biases and politics behind those who are sort of/think they are in control of the economy.
Will truly start to see what the differences are between Labour and Tories soon enough and hopefully they can let the public finances BS disappear over time.
If y9ou cannot prove anything is it a science?
Who says "you cannot prove anything" in economics? It's just not true. Don't listen to cranks - they want to degrade the established body of knowledge and academia because they want to present their oddball ideas as equally valid. And don't listen to people whose only knowledge of economics is (sometimes amusing) aphorisms and quips.
Lots of science isn't 'proven' there are thousands of hypotheses with evidence to support them but no definitive 'proof'
Medicine in particular, lots of mechanisms that are near impossible to directly observe and affected by complex factor but whose operations are inferred from observable chemical or physical changes
And don’t listen to people whose only knowledge of economics is (sometimes amusing) aphorisms and quips.
As always your arrogance is impressive. I know its difficult for a genius like yourself to understand but just possibly other people do have knowledge of economics but just are skeptical of those who treat it like a proper science rather than one of the weaker social sciences along the lines of sociology.
Even the, in theory, more testable version of behavioural economics has gone into replication hell recently although oddly enough for a self professed science the profession has been slower to start replication studies.
Fair enough thestabiliser - but there is a consensus in medicine whereas in economics there seems not to be
There's plenty of agreement in economics - it's just that the stuff that everyone agrees about is not particularly contentious or interesting. There are still unknowns and disagreements in medicine and ecology, but that doesn't mean they're not sciences. There are also plenty of non-economists who claim what they're doing is "economics" but it's really just the exercise of power.
treat it like a proper science rather than one of the weaker social sciences
OOOOoooooOOOOOooooHHHhhhhh!
With regard to medicine there is IMO "medical science" which is only a part of medicine. some parts of the medical world really are not science based but skills based where knowledge is useless if you do not have the skills
There's also space for 'social science' within medicine. One of my colleagues is a Health Geographer, looking at how different sections of society experience different access and outcomes within healthcare etc.
I guess I'm a social scientist these days, looking at the politics surrounding sustainable transitions. My own stance is that people who think that economics is a pure science somewhat missed the point in that in it's most basic sense, it is mainly a study in power relations and behaviours (other opinions are available).
Funny letter in the Guardian last week talking about the state of academia. It was along the lines of 'given these institutions are full of so called economic experts, why are they all on the verge of going bankrupt'.
....but I think the more salient point is.....yes, we know that one poster thinks that Reeves needs to embrace MMT, hearing every 7 posts is probably going to be a bit tedious for some. (I'm not in disagreement re MMT).
Anyway, Tory leadership stuff should kick off a bit this afternoon. Should be fun!
but I think the more salient point is…..yes, we know that one poster thinks that Reeves needs to embrace MMT, hearing every 7 posts is probably going to be a bit tedious for some. (I’m not in disagreement re MMT).
It's in reflection to people talking up the tax payer myth every 3 posts.
The point being we are stuck and nothing gets substantially better until we do away with Thatcherite thinking.
Let's face it Reeves' whole mandate has been about mythical government finances - I don't think we should let her get away with it at the expense of society crumbling away.
If Reeves and Labour generally didn't make such a thing out this - then there would be no value in my an others' counter-arguments.
Plus Centrists roll-on with tax payer stories all they time. Actually that's the tedious bit for me.
Balancing between tax take, spending, "borrowing", issuing.... all these have still have to be taken into account under MMT, as you know. We all know there's not a big pot that taxes go into, and money is then taken out of. That doesn't mean that the answer to anything or everything is... "just spend the money, there's no balancing to do"... "they're just pretending this stuff matters"... no, they know this matters, from experience... Reeves and her team aren't dealing in the abstract, they have a hard job ahead of them.
they have a hard job ahead of them
Yeah we know, they and their apologists like yourself never miss an opportunity to tell us just how hard it is to make life better for normal people. And yet they seem to find it very easy to help billionaires, arms companies, foreign states who are at war, and just about anyone and everyone who isn't a working person paying taxes on the income they earn.
It's all lies... it's all easy.
Our public services are failing left right and centre... the gap between what many people earn and their essential living costs is negative and worsening all the time... there's a hell of a lot to do, and it all needs doing now... but it's going to be a long slow process... the easy instantaneous fixes are illusionary.
Oh, and yes... war in Europe is now a constant, not just a threat... so that will be a drain on all European states for the foreseeable future as well.
there’s a hell of a lot to do
Yes there is. So they should start bloody doing it rather than thinking of demonstrably false reasons why they can't make an immediate impact by getting rid of the two child benefit cap. They have been elected to change things and they have an enormous mandate to do just that, rather than spend their time thinking of reasons to not do certain things.
More of that 'doing nothing' they've been indulging in over the past few weeks...
https://Twitter.com/supertanskiii/status/1815728826258714972
More of that ‘doing nothing’ they’ve been indulging in over the past few weeks…
Yeah that's easy stuff that is very cheap and has almost no impact on 99.999% of the population. You're mistaking basic low level competence for the stuff they should actually be doing, which is making the lives of working people and the poor more tolerable. The 2CBC is easy to do, it will have an enormouse positive impact, costs next to nothing, and has widespread support from almost everyone but the most swivel eyed tory loon so there's not reason not to get on with it.
there’s still child poverty
See above, they could solve a lot of that problem right now, but they choose not to because they'd rather not annoy the Daily Mail or be seen to be giving in to their more left of centre MPs and activists.
More of that ‘doing nothing’ they’ve been indulging in over the past few weeks…
I heard Mishal Husain interview Liz Kendall on R4 this morning. Poor Liz, you can't throw media soundbites around to justify a lack of immediate action on Gaza... https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/mishal-husain-corners-minister-over-lack-of-action-over-gaza_uk_669f762ee4b03375f56f2d27
Liz was primarily questioned on unemployment rates. That didn't go too well considering that's her portfolio
Have they not stopped the killing in Gaza yet? FFS! What've they been playing at?
We all know that all Keir has to do is phone Israel up and tell them to stop and they will, and the inhumane bastard hasn't even found the time?
He's worse than Hitler!
they’d rather not annoy the Daily Mail
This is literally what they have to do.
We all know that all Keir has to do is phone Israel up and tell them to stop and they will, and the inhumane bastard hasn’t even found the time?
I'll take that as ironic comment. "We will be setting out more plans in the weeks and months ahead"
See above, they could solve a lot of that problem right now, but they choose not to because they’d rather not annoy the Daily Mail or be seen to be giving in to their more left of centre MPs and activists.
They can pretty much do what the hell they like at the minute as it will be long forgotten by the time of the next election. 🙂
On the surface, transfer licences for weapons should be stopped right now... looks simple. It's completely tied up with third countries though, isn't it? Needs to be coordinated with them. Israel produces enough arms to protect itself, but USA, Germany & the UK can still make a point here... that what's happening right now in Gaza is well beyond self protection, and that international cooperation on security is at it risk if that doesn't change. There's probably more to do here as regards intelligence sharing rather than physical supplies... I like to see that come into play in the open as well (it probably already is behind the scenes).
UK gov's diplomatic efforts looks totally futile right now... but that doesn't mean they should stop... or that calls to improve/increase them deserve mockery... all real diplomacy needs to be aimed at stopping the deaths and reducing the chances of them starting again in future... a ceasefire now, an immediately ramped up aid effort, and as peaceful as possible two state solution in place long term.
Netenyahu is presently in Washington and instead of being arrested and treated like the genocidal war criminal he is, he's being feted like the pope and giving a speech to congress, presumably to say that he intends to continue the genocide and can we have another squadron of F-35's please?.
The worlds biggest superpower is going to nod along, give him a round of applause, then carrry on sending him billions and billions of dollars worth of arms.
In the face of that, which is the uncomfortable reality of the matter, what exactly do you expect Keir Starmer to do that the Israeli's would even notice?
On the surface, transfer licences for weapons should be stopped right now… looks simple. It’s completely tied up with third countries though, isn’t it? Needs to be coordinated with them.
Why couldn't Liz Kendall say that? It sounds much better than what she did say; you're wasted on here kelvin 🙂
Nothing I say will get in the way with diplomatic efforts, so, like you, I can just say it how I see it... and not worry about the fallout. And let's not forget that the "fallout" here could be the continued destruction of Palestine in the short term, and the end of Israel in the long term... both of which are higher risk results than a few people disagreeing on a forum about how to go about things, and UK state involvement in all that.
More of that ‘doing nothing’ they’ve been indulging in over the past few weeks…
The key part being "at the end of the contract". Not immediately, no rush.
And agree with Dash, tories and reform whip up immigration as the major thing to be concerned about but whether people are on a barge or in other premises makes no difference to people lives does it.
Heres some more doing nothing...
Zero hours contracts...
The Employment Rights Bill will give workers the right to a contract reflecting the number of hours they regularly work.
It also requires bosses to give "reasonable notice" and compensation if shifts are changed or cancelled.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw4yvprvn94o
To say they haven't been on office 3 weeks yet I think some are being a bit harsh...
Seeing reports that the cancellation of HS2 will actually reduce line capacity once the trains start replacing the Avanti services on the existing tracks. This is ****ing outrageous, I hope it gives labour some impetuous to reinstate it (in full!?)
The key part being “at the end of the contract”. Not immediately, no rush
The Tories will have ‘negotiated’ the contract with one of their mates, no doubt based in the Caymen Islands
They will have legally watertight clauses in place which means cancellation will result in enormous financial penalties
Welcome to the real world as brought to you by the Tory party
I hope it gives labour some impetuous to reinstate it (in full!?)
The Tories have already salted the earth and flogged/given away the land to their mates
Again: Welcome to the real world as brought to you by the Tory party
Zero hours contracts are an interesting one. I have worked on a zero hours contract because that is what I wanted - bank and agency nurse. A pal of mine works on a zero hours contract. Supply teacher again her choice freely made.
Its actually quite hard to get rid of the abusive zero hours contracts without getting rid of the ones that folk like me want
However not removing the 2 child benefit cap with its abhorrent rape clause is indefensible and you guys know it
Zero hours contracts are an interesting one. I have worked on a zero hours contract because that is what I wanted – bank and agency nurse. A pal of mine works on a zero hours contract. Supply teacher again her choice freely made.
Its actually quite hard to get rid of the abusive zero hours contracts without getting rid of the ones that folk like me want
Yeah I'm not sure exactly how it will work, they are saying there will be an opt-out as there are circumstances where it suits people, as you say...
I guess it will operate a bit like the opt-out of the 48hr per week EU working time regulations?
The only thing that can stop Netanyahu is withdrawal of US support. That's literally it.
Vote on two-child benefit cap to be held this evening, paving way for Starmer to face first potential Commons rebellion
The SNP’s king’s speech amendment calling for the two-child benefit cap to be scrapped has been selected for a vote by speaker Sir Lindsay Hoyle, paving the way for a Commons vote on Tuesday evening.The vote could see the first possible rebellion in the Commons for Keir Starmer as prime minister as MPs from across the party have called for the cap to be scrapped.
Former shadow chancellor John McDonnell said earlier that he will be voting for the SNP amendment.
first test of Starmers authority. good on the SNP for doing this tho its plainly a bit of party politics looking to the holyrood election. Its all about making the Red tories / two cheeks of the same arse stick
50+ rebellion is my guess
Edited to reduce the prediction
The only thing that can stop Netanyahu is withdrawal of US support. That’s literally it.
You're probably right, but withdrawing US support will also be the thing that ends Israel as a state, and would break at least 2 treaties of the top of my head
its plainly a bit of party politics looking to the holyrood election
The SNP already have the seats at Holyrood to compensate larger families for the effects of the cap by topping up their payments… and with the language being used, I honestly thought they already were… but a quick search suggests otherwise. Anyone know for sure?
No idea how big the “Rebellion” will be. Still think policy in this area will change next year in some form.
You’re probably right, but withdrawing US support will also be the thing that ends Israel as a state, and would break at least 2 treaties of the top of my head
Not if Isreal agrees a one secuilar state or a decent two state solution based on the 67 borders and given how much illegality Isreal is guilty of........
first test of Starmers authority. good on the SNP for doing this tho its plainly a bit of party politics looking to the holyrood election. Its all about making the Red tories / two cheeks of the same arse stick
Great! We’re 3 weeks into getting rid of the Tories after 14 years and the SNP are point scoring and trying to undermine the government, who they probably agree with 90% of policy with
So there’s you’re argument against proportional representation, right there
Sixth form level politics in action.
Rebellion of 7 following a 3 line whip and threat of removal of the whip
The SNP already have the seats at Holyrood to compensate larger families for the effects of the cap by topping up their payments… and with the language being used, I honestly thought they already were
We have the "scottish child payment" which mitigates the effects of the two child benefit cap but the SNP has neither the power nor the budget to remove its ill effects completely.
Edit - Binners you know they are right and that labours retenti8on of the 2 child cap is indefensible - I know you know this as you hav e not made any attempt to do so
dunno what it has to do with PR either.
A two state entity would mean a return to the status quo ante, an apartheid state and a super-exploited dependent state of refugees. Not going to happen. A single secular democratic state based on equality for all is the only answer.
Not if its based on the 67 borders????
Quite so
I too don't get what the SNP are doing...or even how they get to do it. They've got what..8 MPs?, the vast majority of the population can't vote for them, why do they get to potentially influence UK-wide policy? (And I'd say the same if was Plaid, or DUP etc). Weird system.
Sixth form level politics in action.
God help being on the right side of an argument.
I too don’t get what the SNP are doing…or even how they get to do it. They’ve got what..8 MPs?, the vast majority of the population can’t vote for them, why do they get to potentially influence UK-wide policy? (And I’d say the same if was Plaid, or DUP etc). Weird system.
UK wide policy affects Scotland. They are representing their constituents same as any MP. they like all MPs and parties have the right to propose amendments. the speaker selects which amendments go to a vote
What they are doing is twofold 1) ending the 2 child benefit cap is the right thing to do and 2) its a nice bit of signalling for the next holyrood election by painting Labour as in favour of this cap and thus as bad as the tories
They’ve got what..8 MPs?, the vast majority of the population can’t vote for them, why do they get to potentially influence UK-wide policy? (And I’d say the same if was Plaid, or DUP etc).
Are you suggesting that Scotland shouldn't get to elect any MPs given that they already have a devolved government, or that the parties available to Scottish voters should only be those available at the UK level? *
* - you might want to check which parties are available to all UK voters
1) the SNP gets to influence UK policy because err they represent UK constituencies. If they propose something that has no support outside their party, it will sink without a trace. I don't think that will happen here.
2) Practically no-one in Israel and Palestine wants a single, binational, secular state. It's a dream of foreigners and mad idealists alone. Plenty of people want a one state solution (in which the other lot have been run off the land).
3) the suggestion that the UK can simply cancel arms exports licences to Israel is ignoring one thing: Israel is transferring plenty of arms to the UK. The Elbit offices here are for selling, not buying. That's pain that could go two ways. Some people might think that's worth it - but in any case it's more complicated than "UK should turn off the tap".
4) it's a myth that Israel will have to do whatever the US tells it to, and Washington simply needs to decide. Removing US support would be painful but not insurmountable - 1947 was fought with Czech weapons, 1967 was fought with French planes, and since then the Israelis have been very careful not to be dependent on others. They are sufficiently friendly with France and Russia and Turkey that they would not struggle to find alternate suppliers if they needed them.
Blimey this 'sixth form'stuff is so tedious, coming from a Gumby with a chip butty on both shoulders having been told at sixteen he wasn't suitable for further education. Give us a 'king break. Amongst my former (working class) students you'll find an MP, a judge, a number of solicitors, a head teacher, all doing something a bit useful. And they had good socialist politics as sixth formers, by degrading them you degrade yourself, massively.
Those 7 MP's with the whip suspended for 6 months are some of the real talent in Labour. Sultana, Burgon....if I were them, I'd be looking at a defection to the Greens. They're both Labour and Co-operative I believe, so fairly aligned with the vast majority of the Green policies.
This is why I'm not a Labour voter or supporter anymore. The feel good start period is definitely over.
The bit I find strange about the rebels voting for the SNP amendment is that they fought the last General Election a few weeks ago with a manifesto that stated that Labour want to abolish the 2 child cap, but only when the government finances are in a better state. So it is hardly surprising that the party had a three line whip and tehn suspended them for 6 months.
Blimey this ‘sixth form’stuff is so tedious, coming from a Gumby with a chip butty on both shoulders having been told at sixteen he wasn’t suitable for further education.
In the 20+ year history of STW and all the countless insults that have been flung, this is right up there with the very best of them @BillMC !
Not that I disagree with you of course… Binners is showing the kind of blind loyalty to partisan politics that only the most hardened of football supporters could show… Besides @Binners, I bet it wouldn’t be too hard to unearth evidence of you arguing the case for Proportional Representation historically!
Starmer is grossly overstating both his popularity, and also his ability to rule with an iron fist. Don’t get me wrong, in his first 2 weeks he has done plenty of good (but then so would anyone else who wasn’t a Tory quite frankly!), but he’s really screwed the pooch here… There might have only been 7 official dissident voices, but there’s an awful lot who have clearly abstained and given how Labour stated they wish to abolish the 2 child cap themselves as and when fiscally prudent to do so, it seems absolutely ludicrous to have enforced a 3 line whip for “dissenting” voices here, as those voices technically aren’t dissenting, they merely wish for the process to be hurried up!
Starmer might have been the blunt tool the Labour Party needed to make it electable, but it’s precisely his gross lack of respect for democracy that meant I couldn’t vote for him, that will be his undoing much sooner rather than later I suspect… Especially given how the Labour Party should be trying desperately hard to instill public confidence in MP’s for respecting democracy, not undermining it even further…
I thought John McDonnell had disappeared, but no, still around Parliament in his 70s, well i guess he's got a few months to take it easy now and go back to focusing on his campaign group.
Those 7 MP’s with the whip suspended for 6 months are some of the real talent in Labour. Sultana, Burgon
Burgon? Really? Talent for what exactly? He stood as the living embodiment of ‘is that all we’ve got left?’ Under magic grandad
If I wasn’t such an uneducated working class thicko, I could maybe have dreamt of attending the Tony Benn University of Political Education
If only….
withdrawing US support will also be the thing that ends Israel as a state
Well, if you're going to right historic wrongs, you've got to start somewhere...
I bet it wouldn’t be too hard to unearth evidence of you arguing the case for Proportional Representation historically!
Or even against the two child cap. However since the glorious leader has spoken binners will leap to attention and spew bile against anyone who dares question these good labour policies.
I assume he hates sixth form politics so much because the teachers gave up in despair about how easily led he was.
Looking at the guardian comments it really is hard to spot the difference between the dedicated starmerites and the daily heils commentators around the two child cap. I suspect many who felt obliged to oppose it when it was a tory policy are now liking that they can indulge in their prejudices since the glorious leader hasnt gone against it.
Starmer will probably get shut of it next week now the vote has served its purpose… getting rid of the last of magic grandads disciples.
They can join him in backbench, placard-waving irrelevance.
Their spiritual home
I think the withdrawal of the whip is a miscalculation politically. Yes, I understand the desire to have a tight ship, and no I don't think its antidemocratic to require MPs to confirm to the party platform on which they were elected.
However, if you have a majority of ten zillion, including a whole bunch of people you never expected to make it, it's inevitable that some of them are going to dissent esp if it's symbolic. It's also not like they're supporting some mad anti-Semitic or trolling motion for which there really can't be any tolerance. The whips should have let it ride, one way or another.
Burgon? Really? Talent for what exactly? He stood as the living embodiment of ‘is that all we’ve got left?’ Under magic grandad
If I wasn’t such an uneducated working class thicko, I could maybe have dreamt of attending the Tony Benn University of Political Education
Erm, yeah....right you are then!
Sixth form level politics in action.
Looking strong rather than doing the right thing does seem pretty childish.
Especially as Starmer has recently been making noises suggesting he’s open to it anyway.
I’ll bet it gets reversed in the budget anyway
Aye right. Starmer and Reeves have picked a ridiculous hill to die on. They could have committed to this in the future, they could have just said the two child cap with the abhorrent rape clause will be removed as soon as feasible. Everyone who works in the area ie the experts have said it needs to go. Its perfectly affordable ie the cost is lower than many commitments they have made
It is indefensible on any grounds to keep this policy and note thoser totally uncritical of labour on here have not even attempted to make a defense of this policy
They can join him in backbench, placard-waving irrelevance.
Whereas you are joining the daily ****ing heil.
Your spiritual home by any chance?
I wonder if Starmer felt compelled not to scrap the cap as he thought it would be seen as a weakness in future rebellions? Making them more likely in the future.
Anyway, it's all a bit daft, it seems inevitable that it will be scrapped** and 7 MP's have lost the whip over it.
** It should have already been scrapped imo.
Oh, I often forget that everyone not to the left of Jeremy Corbyn is a Nazi
Thanks for the reminder though comrade
Thanks TJ. Looks like extra child benefit.
https://www.mygov.scot/scottish-child-payment
Like it. Not quite a mitigation for the cap, but in many ways better. Would like to see something like that UK wide. Or just raise child benefit for all to make it simpler (and taxes elsewhere to balance).
Wow, clearly a lot of people in here who don’t quite understand politics.
80% of the public are against lifting the cap.
Anyone who defies a three line whip to vote against their own government must be suspended, 100% the correct decision. The Tories didn’t do this and they all lost all authority. It’s basic politics. Sure there is lots of ranting on social media, but most aren’t taking everything into account.
Politics isn’t getting everything you want all the time, Starmer clearly isn’t a fan of it but the chance to do it has gone for now. Contrary to what people seem to believe for some reason, it doesn’t mean they won’t ever do it. I give it less than a year.
Then everyone can start moaning about other stuff.
