[Closed] UK Falling behind

Falling behind Singapore/Shanghai/HK I can understand - these are effectively just cities and it would be more appropriate to compare to other cities. Falling behind Poland is more worrying.

It's just another stick for the government to beat us teachers with.
"we should prepare students for the PISA tests" was one headline. I suppose we have to do that inbetween teaching the syllabus, marking, revision clubs, lesson planning and preparation.

They are pointless - you can't compare china with the uk in this way especially when it comes to language.

It's just another stick for the government to beat us teachers with...

...pointless...

Not another teacher with a chip on you shoulder are you? These rankings are highly relevant I'd say but that they are as much a measure of our goverment's education policy, parenting, education system from todler up etc than they are an inditement of the quality of our secondary school teaching of maths.

A big shake up is required if we are to compete internationally but our teachers and their unions are a big blocker to this.

Did anyone do the test on the OECD site that was linked to by the BBC? Very easy, common sense type tests that didn't require "book learning" of dificult maths techniques. More just applying simple techniques to increasingly more tricky scenarios.

Backs up the hypothesys that our education system is geared to producing pupils who can robotically pass our GCSE and A-Level tests but who can't actually apply the facts they are able to recite.

I can't read and I can't write, but that don't really matter,
'cuz I be from the West Country and I can drive a tractor.

I'm sure we are, but I wouldn't want to put my kids through what they go through to acheive academic excellence - and does it really result in a well rounded person better equipped with all the skills they need to deal with life? More like intense coaching to get people through exams. What about common sense and making sense of the world around you? Skills and knowledge you can't learn in a classroom or from a textbook. Also what about simply happiness and wellbeing? It will take a couple of decades for the true cost of all the pressure and stress and loss of a childhood to manifest itself in the far east cultures.

Our school system does need a huge kick up the backside - standards have been slipping for decades, but the far east model is one I hope we look to for a few pointers, and not to base our system on.

In terms of preparing students for the PISA test, it seems the skills they would need are mathematics and the ability to apply it to everyday situations. If they are not prepared for this as part of their current syllabus, it's a bit worrying.

I'd want to look into the [url= http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6344672 ]methodology behind the PISA tests[/url] before drawing any conclusions.

What about common sense and making sense of the world around you?

Our school system does need a huge kick up the backside - standards have been slipping for decades, but the far east model is one I hope we look to for a few pointers, and not to base our system on.

Do you understand what these PISA tests are actually testing. It is exactly what you think is lacking in our system (and the tests back up that you are correct). So the conclusion from these tests is that the Far East model is actually better at preparing puplis to solve "real life" problems. Why would you not want to learn from that?

It's a fundamental attitude problem in the UK. To put it bluntly, we idolise being thick.

Listening to Jeremy Vine yesterday talking about gas bill calculations, he was proud of his inability to work out his bill from the basic figures, and even had the temerity to treat the elderly lady who called in to explain how to do it (not difficult!) with disdain and condescension.

Or look at that blithering idiot on Strictly Get Me Out Of Here On Ice, who's too stupid to tell the time. Celebrity? Don't get me started.

It's weird how we're boastful of being crap at maths or using a computer; yet you wouldn't stand up and announce in public that you can't read or write. That's why we're dropping off the bottom of international league tables.

I'd want to look into the methodology behind the PISA tests before drawing any conclusions.

And if you do want to understand them more closely you could do better than pick a site aimed at techers in a country who don't do so well in the test who will apply a very specific bias to the discussion and debate around how the data is collected and analysed.

Having looked at the tests and some of the questions

Johnny travels 15 miles in one direction it takes him 1/2 an hour returning he takes a longer route of 30 miles and it takes him an hour, what was his average speed.
To me thats being able to see relationships twixt numbers in different formats and simple ARITHMETIC not mathematics.
If our kids care incapable of those basic functions which should be ingrained before leaving junior school we are in big do-do.

Johnny travels 15 miles in one direction it takes him 1/2 an hour returning he takes a longer route of 30 miles and it takes him an hour, what was his average speed.

Looks like we are falling behind with grammar and punctuation as well. 😀

Correct it then and re post.

It's a fundamental attitude problem in the UK. To put it bluntly, we idolise being thick.

There is definitely some truth in that. Anyway if you read the report on the OECD's finding for the UK its girls and the Welsh who are to blame.

Johnny travels 15 miles in one direction; it takes him 1/2 an hour. Returning, he takes a longer route of 30 miles and it takes him an hour. What was his average speed?

There are a couple of options but this is the one I would choose.

It will take a couple of decades for the true cost of all the pressure and stress and loss of a childhood to manifest itself in the far east cultures.

Its OK michael goves reforms are based around the swedish model of free schools

wait a minute they came several places lower than the UK in this league table, oh...

I suspect that this quote,

Teachers are seen as "generals", able to make their own decisions, the OECD reports, and local government education officials are often drawn from the ranks of head teachers and teachers.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25090034 ]From here[/url] may have a lot to do with their success.

In other words when politicians leave well alone and allow the experts to do their job, miraculously things get better.

Currently have two family members who have just moved into year 7/secondary school - one at an Academy & the other a Grammar School. Talking through various bits of school work & homework tasks it seems they are both are taught in very similar ways however, one of them is then pushed further to understand how what he has learnt is relevant to daily life. A good example of this was some geometry work they both did - one was given a number of simple shapes to 'find the missing angle' on whereas the other had drawings such as buildings, furniture and even a bike frame to work his out. The former really didn't see how his homework had anything to do with the real world.

Their DT was the same last term - one had to design a trebuchet, the other designed and made a working model. Knowing the theory and putting it into practice are really very different and I think it's where the curriculum lets kids down.

I'll leave you to work out which kid goes to which school............

And if you do want to understand them more closely you could do better than pick a site aimed at techers in a country who don't do so well in the test who will apply a very specific bias to the discussion and debate around how the data is collected and analysed.

Obviously.

Listening to Jeremy Vine yesterday talking about gas bill calculations, he was proud of his inability to work out his bill from the basic figures

Jeremy Vine who was privately educated in the years before GCSEs? 🙂

Its OK michael goves reforms are based around the swedish model of free schools

wait a minute they came several places lower than the UK in this league table, oh...

They used to do much better, before the introduction of free schools...

I, like many teachers, would love us to move to a school system more like Finland. Private schools are illegal, they don't start school until they're 7, there are no formal exams until age 18, and their equivalent of Ofsted was abolished years ago. Basically, it's the opposite of what Gove wants to introduce, and they consistently out perform us in league tables.

Or look at that blithering idiot on Strictly Get Me Out Of Here On Ice, who's too stupid to tell the time. Celebrity?

He can tell the time, just not on an antiquated clock format 🙂

Listened to Radio 4 for a short while this afternoon and a Government spokeswoman was on (didn't catch the name as it had already started).
It was quite entertaining as, while she was talking about a decline in educational standards, she kept referring to the country of Shanghai.

On a happier note, I managed to make it through another day without needing to balance any quadratic equations

Anyone else?

*goes back to colouring things in*

I, like many teachers, would love us to move to a school system more like Finland. Private schools are illegal, they don't start school until they're 7, there are no formal exams until age 18, and their equivalent of Ofsted was abolished years ago. Basically, it's the opposite of what Gove wants to introduce, and they consistently out perform us in league tables.

Gove wants all this but to wants to keep all of this!

I, like many teachers, would love us to move to a school system more like Finland. Private schools are illegal, they don't start school until they're 7, there are no formal exams until age 18, and their equivalent of Ofsted was abolished years ago. Basically, it's the opposite of what Gove wants to introduce, and they consistently out perform us in league tables.

It's plainly a futile load of old cobblers in any case - league tables comparing education systems across the whole world, my arse. Estonia is ranked higher than the UK (and the US) in science education - how would you even attempt a comparison given Estonia has no science base and a population smaller than Manchester?

teachers and their unions are a big blocker to this.

standards have been slipping for decades

We are dealing with the same exact issues here in the USA

A big shake up is required if we are to compete internationally but our teachers and their unions are a big blocker to this.

The unions are blocking Gove's reforms because Gove's reforms won't raise standards, not because they don't want to raise standards.

Backs up the hypothesys that our education system is geared to producing pupils who can robotically pass our GCSE and A-Level tests but who can't actually apply the facts they are able to recite.

(Reciting facts is what Gove wants to move towards.)

For years, schools have been measured by their GCSE pass rates, so schools have done everything they can to improve GCSE pass rates. If you base my salary progression and the funding of my employer on pass rates, I will work to improve pass rates.

standards have been slipping for decades

But have they?

If I compare the primary education I received, just prior to the introduction of the National Curriculum, and that currently being enjoyed by my two daughters there is simply no comparison.

Equally, looking at what my eldest is just about to do at secondary, she's is going to have a hugely better experience, and outcomes, than I did.

Sadly, all of the changes being brought in by Gove are going to reverse the improvements made between 1988 and today.

The 'teaching for exams' system is flawed, but we live in a society where everyone has a target to hit. Until we abolish that we're going to continue aiming for daft targets while other necessary elements become a lower priority, or even obsolete.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25156701

"Make no mistake, on December 3, the morale of the profession will take another whack around the ears. It is almost certain.
"Schools will be told, 'Again you're hopeless', 'Again you've messed up', 'Again you're no good', 'Sort yourselves out'. All that sort of stuff doesn't do any good and it doesn't solve the problem either."
Sir John suggests that England may be losing out because other countries take the tests more seriously and do more to ensure that pupils perform well.
The former headteacher says one solution would be to familiarise pupils with the style of the tests.
He told BBC News that because the tests are taken by a minority of pupils they are not taken seriously and "nobody bothers".
"It all seems so far away it doesn't seem to matter - but when politicians get hold of the results it matters a great deal."
'Misunderstand'
He added that no-one would think of entering any other exam "from driving tests to Oxbridge exams" without preparing - but says schools are "dissuaded" from preparing pupils for Pisa.
"Maybe that's what the government wants. Maybe it's what Pisa wants too, and if everybody else is doing that, fair enough," he said.
But unless other countries did the same "you are not comparing like with like".

at least we haven't declined as catastrophically as Sweden with it's free school policy.... Oh wait.

The unions are blocking Gove's reforms because Gove's reforms won't raise standards, not because they don't want to raise standards.

Can you point me to the last time a teaching union supported reform proposals put forward by any Education Secretary?

Can you point me to the last time a teaching union supported reform proposals put forward by any Education Secretary?

Most of them?

I've been teaching since 1999 and this is the first time I remember major ructions about reforms.

I think a problem with Gove is that he's an idealist basing his vision around his personal education experience, which was not in an inner-city comprehensive.

There was quite a good interview on Radio 4's "PM" programme tonight that debunked a lot of the nonsense that's said about Sweden. What came out was that a long term decline in educational attainment had been taking place for 20+ years and was driven by 3 factors:

1. "new" thinking on the purpose of education and a movement away from "teaching" and teachers as enforcers of behaviour and discipline.
2. a lot of unqualified teachers and very poor standards in teacher training.
3. The move to devolve management of schools to local authorities and a break away from a national curriculum.

If Labour were hoping to make political capital out the Swedish performance in the Pisa tests and the role of free schools they must be pretty disappointed because the schools that are disproportionately performing best there (as is the case here) are the Free Schools.

The other thing the PISA results show us is that a whole generation educated since Labour's "education education education" pledge have sunk to the bottom of the class and the £30Bn of extra spending under Labour achieved precisely nothing.

What's also interesting is that the apparent reason attainment dropped in Sweden are very similar to the UK experience - conversely the Asian model of "old fashioned" teaching, fixed curricula and strict discipline in the classroom continues to drive excellence.

Can you show me the evidence of the top performing UK free schools please.
Unless reform enables higher quality teachers to be emlyed its all pissing in the winf imo.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/primaryeducation/10214802/Most-Coalition-free-schools-rated-good-or-outstanding.html

If your measure of education is passing an exam on a narrow set of learned facts or behaviours, on one day in your life, then these comparisons are not great.
If however, you think education has a different set of outcomes, then these are irrelevant.
For me education is about so much more.
The future of our nation and young people, in the knowledge economy, is very different from when such exams were introduced.
These chaps put it rather well - especially Sir Ken.

From your link.

All of these schools have now been inspected by Ofsted. Of those, four were rated outstanding, 14 good, five require improvement and one was inadequate.
The figures are roughly in line with the ratings given to all state schools across England.

you need to try harder me thinks

robdixon - Member

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/primaryeducation/10214802/Most-Coalition-free-schools-rated-good-or-outstanding.html

Can you show me the evidence of the top performing UK free schools please.

I would argue it's difficult to compare free school and other school performance on a level playing field. Parents make a conscious decision to send their child to free schools - they are making a positive choice; the parents tend to be more engaged and supportive of education. 'Normal' schools take a lot of children who's parents give school choice little thought, are less supportive of education in general. This in itself makes a huge difference to the progress students make. This is of course a massive generalisation! However a lot comes down to parents and society in general. Until education and the education system are valued more massive changes can't happen.

I have one child in primary and on in secondary. As the comment above, they are getting a much more positive education than I did. However, I agree with matt_outandabout - exams are only one part of an education. Both mine got to spend a week in China during Year 6 - far more useful to broaden their horizons than being stuck in a classroom!

I do agree with the application part; skills need to be applied to real world and practical applications - not what Gove is advocating though?

In maths ?
I tried the test its not maths thats what was called arithmetic, maths is what I did to get my HNC in electronics shit like this

1. These tests are for 15 year olds. When I studied an HNC it was between 18 and 20.
2. Arithmetic is a branch of mathematics.
3. From the example question posted up the thread, at least two other branches of maths are required.

Nevertheless, I'm impressed with your qualifications. You should be proud.

robdixon, directly taken from that torygraph article:

All of these schools have now been inspected by Ofsted. Of those, four were rated outstanding, 14 good, five require improvement and one was inadequate.
The figures are roughly in line with the ratings given to all state schools across England.

Edit: too slow typing on tablet!!

I agree clink it is tricky but given the right data its possible. Especially with secondary schools, just look at prior attainment and progress.

As a parent, my lad's school changed status to an academy a couple of years ago with loads of hype. The only changes that I have noticed have been an increase in admin staff & pension liability for teaching staff, including the recent retirement of the head.

Can I also separate those of us North and West of the English borders?
In Scotland we have a very different curriculum now, with massively different focus and outcomes slowly working its way through the system (upwards).
Long term it will create a different set of skills and abilities in the pupils.
We also, as of August, have teachers who have to re-validate their competence, including learning new skills, every 5 years or face not being allowed to teach. This is hand in hand with new support and money for in-service training. Investing in our teachers WILL make a bigger difference IMO.

TEST QUESTIONS (LEVEL 6)
HELEN THE CYCLIST
Helen has just got a new bike. It has a speedometer which sits on the handlebar.

The speedometer can tell Helen the distance she travels and her average speed for a trip.

QUESTION
Helen rode her bike from home to the river, which is 4 km away. It took her 9 minutes. She rode home using a shorter route of 3 km. This only took her 6 minutes.

What was Helen's average speed, in km/h, for the trip to the river and back?

Average speed for the trip: ..................... km/h

% OF STUDENTS WHO SCORED LEVEL 6 OR ABOVE
Shanghai-China 31%
Singapore 19%
Chinese Taipei 18%
Hong Kong-China 12%
Korea 12%
Japan 8%
Macao-China 8%
Liechtenstein 7%
Switzerland 7%
Belgium 6%
Poland 5%
Germany 5%
NewZealand 5%
Netherlands 4%
Canada 4%
Australia 4%
Estonia 4%
Finland 4%
Vietnam 4%
Slovenia 3%
OECD average 3%
Austria 3%
Czech Republic 3%
France 3%
Slovak Republic 3%
United Kingdom 3%
Luxembourg 3%
Iceland 2%
United States 2%
Israel 2%

TEST QUESTIONS (LEVEL 3)
WHICH CAR?
Chris has just received her car driving licence and wants to buy her first car.

This table below shows the details of four cars she finds at a local car dealer.
[img] [/img]

QUESTION
Which car's engine capacity is the smallest?
A Alpha
B Bolte
C Castel
D Dezal

% OF STUDENTS WHO SCORED LEVEL 3 OR ABOVE

Shanghai-China 89%
...
United Kingdom 55%

Difficult to remember what sort of arithmetic I was doing at 15, but I'm quite surprised at how low the UK Level 6 achievement was. Even the Chinese students only hit 31%.

The Level 4 result is even more striking, if only just over half of the UK students could interpret a simple table and find the lowest number.

Same issues in the US. They implement testing to measure achievement. Then they get accused of only teaching what is on the test! 😕

Sometimes, it gets really ridiculous like [url= http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2013/11/03/With-more-than-270-tests-at-Pittsburgh-schools-this-year-when-is-enough-enough.html ]Pittsburgh Schools giving 270 tests[/url]

Which car's engine capacity is the smallest?
A Alpha
B Bolte
C Castel
D Dezal
or
E Dont give a shit as I have no idea why I'm doing this stupid test

The Level 4 result is even more striking, if only just over half of the UK students could interpret a simple table and find the lowest number.

That statistic does worry me. And then I realised that 0% of kcr could repeat the Level accurately.

Now I'm really worried 🙁

Without wanting to get into a pissing contest, at 15 I had started my Higher maths which would have included all sorts of stuff like geometry, algebra, trigonometry, and calculus and I was by no means exceptional.

Do these rankings matter a toss?
It won't affect me in the slightest. As a teacher that is.
About as useful as league table for schools if you ask me. As there are too many variables they are not valid comparisons.
I teach 7 year olds who remind me about fair testing.

[i]Unless reform enables higher quality teachers to be emlyed its all pissing in [/i]

Simple solution -

Pay teachers more to ensure you attract higher quality candidates.

Apparently it works well with MPs and company directors.

kcr - Member

TEST QUESTIONS (LEVEL 6)
HELEN THE CYCLIST

Whats worrying in the whole world figures is the low percentages that could do this simple arithmetic. Not even a 1/3rd at the highest. My personal believe is that kids are too reliant on electronics to be able to spot relationships between things.
I rely on electronics, in fact it was my bread and butter before I packed in work, but I did have the foundations set before I leart to use a calculator or a social media/forum website.

Why do we want to compete with places like South Korea anyway? The kids study 15 odd hours a day, sleep for 4 hours a day and will eventually get early alzheimers if they don't kill themselves beforehand.

We'd be much better off encouraging creativity.

mattsccm - Member

Do these rankings matter a toss?
It won't affect me in the slightest. As a teacher that is.
About as useful as league table for schools if you ask me. As there are too many variables they are not valid comparisons.
I teach 7 year olds who remind me about fair testing.

I rely on electronics, in fact it was my bread and butter before I packed in work, but I did have the foundations set before I leart to use a calculator or a social media/forum website.

From 1999, primary school children did a lot of mental maths and 'informal' maths skills, as part of the Numeracy Hour. That means the current crop of fifteen year olds did far more mental maths at school than their parents did.

Is this a good time to point out that I have A level maths, did undergraduate maths modules, and currently teach A level physics, but don't know my times tables?

Is it also a good time to point out that those decrying the current state of education on here seem to be making more spelling mistakes than the others? 🙂

By the way, I suspect that this has a lot to do with our low ranking:

E Dont give a shit as I have no idea why I'm doing this stupid test

By the way, I suspect that this has a lot to do with our low ranking:

Indeed. To quote a friend's 14 yr old son "why do I need to learn any of this stuff, I can just look it up on my phone if I need to".

the following table is of limited value 5 of the top 10 are City States you have to get to Korea before there'd any useful data..... and who would be prepared to have Korea's childhood suicide rate which may corelate to their academic achievements...

% OF STUDENTS WHO SCORED LEVEL 6 OR ABOVE
Shanghai-China 31%
Singapore 19%
Chinese Taipei 18%
Hong Kong-China 12%
Korea 12%
Japan 8%
Macao-China 8%
Liechtenstein 7%
Switzerland 7%
Belgium 6%
Poland 5%
Germany 5%
NewZealand 5%
Netherlands 4%
Canada 4%
Australia 4%
Estonia 4%
Finland 4%
Vietnam 4%
Slovenia 3%
OECD average 3%
Austria 3%
Czech Republic 3%
France 3%
Slovak Republic 3%
United Kingdom 3%
Luxembourg 3%
Iceland 2%
United States 2%
Israel 2%

Is it Shanghai that excludes the children of migrant workers from the tests?

[img] [/img]

Interesting bloke on the news this morning talking about how important social and motional intelligence are in terms of work and economic productivity. They are of course not on these tests. It's hard to draw much useful information from statistics like these.

No league table can tell the "whole story" but that doesn't mean that we should be so defensive when presented with current failings. I would expect any teacher to want the highest standards for their pupils and that includes pretty basic maths. The early questions on this test seem to be at about Common Entrance standard and the higher one pretty standard GCSE stuff. There is no real reasons why we should not score higher in these tests or that we should not be aiming for higher UK scores. Is this the be all and end of education? Of course not, but being able to make pretty simple speed, distance, time calculation should be run of the mill for people with access to UK education facilities.

Well spotted! Sloppy writing from me.
The test result does seem worrying though. Either almost half the UK kids were just slapdash, like me, or they genuinely could not interpret a table, which is a basic practical skill.

I would expect any teacher to want the highest standards for their pupils and that includes pretty basic maths.

How would you measure this? Using an international test which just samples a small number of students who know that it doesn't matter to them as individuals, or through a set of exams taken by every student and which the students understand is important to them?

Almost 60% of students get a C in GCSE maths. About 75% get a D or better, and 85% get an E or better.

A C at GCSE is quite a low bar - I'm pretty sure my ten-year-old daughter could get it - but it shows a reasonable level of mathematical fluency. Anyone getting a D probably has enough numeracy to get them by in life.

Falling behind Singapore/Shanghai/HK I can understand - these are effectively just cities and it would be more appropriate to compare to other cities.

the following table is of limited value 5 of the top 10 are City States you have to get to Korea before there'd any useful data

who would be prepared to have Korea's childhood suicide rate which may corelate to their academic achievements...

15. Rakesh and Tina share out £40 in the ratio 5:3,
in that order. How much do they each get?
Answer: Rakesh £........................ Tina £...............
...........
(3 marks)
16. A furniture company makes tables and chairs. Tables are sold for £120, and
chairs for £40.
(a) An order comes in for 9 tables and 17 chairs. W
hat is the total bill?
Answer: £.......................................................................
(2 marks)
(b) Write down an expression for the cost of an ord
er (the retail cost, not the
cost of manufacture) for t tables and c chairs.
Answer: £ ......................................................................
(2 marks)
19. The recommended price of a Portable DVD player is £90.
TVs Direct is selling the player with 20% off the recommended price.
Hi-Fi Gear is selling the player with a discount of 2/9
off the recommended price.
(a) What is the price in TVs Direct?
Answer: £....................................................................
(2 marks)
(b) What is the price in Hi-Fi gear?
Answer: £....................................................................
(2 marks)
(c) How much more does the DVD player cost in TVs Direct?
Answer: £....................................................................
(1 mark)

All the questions given so far are exactly the sort of question they'd do for GCSE foundation level (up to a grade C), if not slightly easier.

Konabunny 15-19 as in they are to busy to contemplate suicide during that period. The problems in korea come later on.

Another thing I would add is that Asian children are so highly disciplined that they may take non-mandatory/irrelevant exams more seriously than the more rebellious western children.

Its also interesting to note that many universities over here reckon a lot of chinese students exam results are state sponsored forgeries.

Falling behind in math(s)? In the global race?

What is this race and is it really that important?

Who actually cares?

Bottom line:

1. Other nations are catching up.

2. Confucius emphasis on learning.
(they have to sit for tough exams long before the Roman barbarians ruled the west)

3. Their upbringing with parents' heavy emphasis on learning.

4. Their languague background. i.e. if they learn Chinese characters then they need to remember (memorise) them well. The Chinese characters cannot really be spelt out easily.

5. Suicide rate etc ... irrelevant to the learning in those countries, if you cannot handle it then do something else. If you want to kill yourself then by all means, as there will be less competition.

6. Many Koreans even try to settle down in other countries because of the intense competition in their own country.

There you go.

🙄

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_South_Korea

South Korea has the highest suicide rate out of the oecd countries.

My missus mentioned a while back that South Koreans are even resorting to sending their children to Filipino International Schools so they actually get more than 4 hours sleep a night.

IMO such pressure is child abuse. Plain and simple.

Tom_W1987 - Member

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_South_Korea

South Korea has the highest suicide rate out of the oecd countries.

I am not surprised as that's the sacrifice they have to make to progress this far within 30 years. Once they were behind many South East Asian countries but now they are even challenging Japan and other developed world. They are even harder working people than the Japanese. If Korean unite you will see another "Germany".

Suicide ... hmmm ... to them it means less competiton.

🙄

The thing is, what is the damn point. With the way technology is going we need to encourage creativity, instead of attempting to compete with computers on memory recall and computational power.