That was me I was slightly wrong
Reform will get a few hundred k due to their vote share but because they have b less than 6mps it is capped
If course refuk being a plc 53% owned by farage all that money is his
Yeah that's disturbing, but, to be frank, the conservatives have been robbing the UK blind for 14 years, and now Farage is head of a political party and an MP, I'd expect much more of a focus on what his nasty game is, and he is MP for Clacton, so it will also be intersting to see if he bothers to do his day-job, or simpy abandons his constituents now he's finally go what he wants.
No surprise there, it was in the manifesto.
So what stoped the tories making it policy? It would have been a vote winner.... oh that's right, they are taking money from the Russians, how nieve of me.
chewkw
Free Member
I am using fuel price to track the new govt progress ?If the fuel price does not come down then I am afraid nothing will change and worst case tax will increase.
That's one bloody strange metric to choose. Anyway, taxes are going to go up anyway, it's just case of how much and where they are targeted.
LOL! It is just for show. Someone is playing good cop bad cop. The puppet master is very powerful.
chewkw, you get an unwarranted bad press on here sometimes but you are as mad as a march hare on occasion. I still think the forum would be a lesser place without you though buddy.
(Im as mad as a march hare too, on occasion!)
No the Labour manifesto does not call for an immediate ceasefire. The exact wording is:
"Labour will continue to push for an immediate ceasefire"
To push for a ceasefire is no different than to urge a ceasefire. It can mean no more than pushing/urging Netanyahu for a ceasefire just as soon as he thinks he is ready for one.
It's just weasel words with no substantial meaning. If Labour had wanted to be clear and unequivocal they would have been so, Starmer is after all a highly qualified lawyer.
They would have very clearly and simply said:
"Labour demands an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and the full protection of civilians under international law"
It's not difficult and I'm not even a lawyer. "Pushing" means nothing.
I am well impressed by the appointment of the new Attorney General though. I can't fault that.
No the Labour manifesto does not call for an immediate ceasefire. The exact wording is:
“Labour will continue to push for an immediate ceasefire”
Semantics, maybe, to me there is no difference between:
A) "push for an immediate ceasefire”
B) "call for an immediate ceasefire"
It's the same sentiment.
"I will do all I can diplomatically to support Joe Biden in bringing about that ceasefire"
Someone needs to tell the Foreign Secretary that Joe Biden isn't the Israeli Prime Minister.
It is Netanyahu who should be put under pressure. It is his troops who are killing civilians. It is his government which is committing war crimes on a daily basis.
Leaving it all to Joe Biden is a copout and another way of saying that he won't be putting any pressure on Israel's far-right government and following exactly the same policy as the previous Tory government.
Edit: To be fair I suspect that they had a wake-up call yesterday. Starmer halving his vote since 2019 and one of his top right-hand men very nearly losing his seat over the issue was probably unexpected and a bit scary.
I am well impressed by the appointment of the new Attorney General though. I can’t fault that.
Is he a good cop or a bad cop? AG is a very influential position with power of invisible hands.
That clip of David Lammy is so insignificant it is meaningless.
Richard Hermer KC seems to be a good cop chewkw
I suspect he is just part of the script. You only have to listen to the tone of PM, who I am sure sought advice from him on matters related to laws. If the tone of the PM remains vague you know you are watching an act.
Someone needs to tell the Foreign Secretary that Joe Biden isn’t the Israeli Prime Minister.
That's a very valid point, now we have an independent UK then we Need to ensure that we are not using our arms industry or in any other way financing this through the back door, as that makes a mockery of anything any politictian says.
Likewise with Ukraine, we need to take action, hoping Biden will help is all well and good, but if Trump gets back in then we can kiss all that good will from the USA goodbye.
All of this wil cost the UK hugely, so I hope the electorate are prepared for that big pill to swallow.
As I said before, Starmer has inherited a huge train crash, so we shall see.
All I can say is at least our new government seem to be making the right noises, rather than banging on about domestic issues that, IMO are mostly self constructed.
Some really good strong first steps, very happy (and yep I'll be honest, a little surprised!) to see it. Felt pretty damn good waking up in the early days of a better nation and going for a ride.
Ian Murray as scottish secretary is an absolute own goal but maybe they can afford it. Anas Sarwar'll be raging though.
Some really good strong first steps
Yeh but, apart from pushing/calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, stopping the Rwanda idiocy and restarting negotiations with the Doctors, putting a new cabinet in place and a few other trivial irrelevant things like speaking to the guy with the silly hat... they're not doing anything are they, and they've nearly had a full day to do all the things ever. Losers.
How we all feeling this morning?
[img] 
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+
Happier than I have in a while, looking forward to a sense of stability in our government and (for the first time in a decade) a sense that the country is going to start improving sometime soon.
The last 24 hours have been a game-changer!
(and yep I’ll be honest, a little surprised!)
That's the crazy thing Labour haven't done anything earth shatteringly amazing, pretty dull stuff, infact, but it just seems weird to have a government do something that's not completely batshit, that sensible seems revolutionary.
I'm sure they're will be plenty of disappointment and balls ups to come but for now it's just nice.
Have many of us read or seen the Lord of the Rings? Remember the bit in Return of the King (spoiler alert) where, unbeknowst to the warring armies, the ring falls into Orodruin precipitating the fall of Sauron and all the people of Gondor feel their spirits leap as the Dark Shadow is lifted?
That's how I felt yesterday. 🙂
Hope this changes things. Getting a proper integrated regional transport system would be fantastic
One of my lad's uni mates apparently
Has Keir not sorted the situation in Gaza yet?
Weather's still shit as well. This is not what I voted for. They are all the same.
Hope this changes things. Getting a proper integrated regional transport system would be fantastic
After some initial teething problems, we seem to be getting there in Greater Manchester and it seems loads more people are using public transport as a result.
To borrow a phrase from Esther McVey you’d think having an affordable, integrated transport network rather than a free-for-all, with private providers only interested in cherrypicking the most profitable routes, would just be ‘common sense’ wouldn’t you?
FTSE went down yesterday. Proof Labour has already crashed the economy according to some.
Felt pretty damn good waking up in the early days of a better nation and going for a ride.
Same, it feels like a weight has been lifted, the appointments look like as I suspected “business like” almost as though Kier going to actually run a country properly for us. Let’s hope it proceeds how it’s started and gets some success.
Does anyone else find it strange that the AV Referendum of 2011 has been almost entirely forgotten about? I dont engage much on social media these days, but found myself drawn into a YT comments section decrying FPTP, and demanding PR. Mostly Reform voters who'd switched from Cons.
I drew their attention to this, and got told I was spreading fake news, and something about 1946 and enfranchisement. The commonality of the responses tells me that someone has got their talking points out there early.
(Yes, I know that it was only for AV and not full PR....)
Just been to the supermarket and I had a brief browse of the headlines on the newspaper stand. Daily Mail promising to hold him to account right from the get go and that he MUST deliver.
Yes, like you did so well when it was the Tories...
Edit: why do emojis no longer work and why does that David Lammy video ^^ auto-play? Is that a new website settings thing or something unique to that video platform? Cos autoplay is unbelievably annoying.
I am using fuel price to track the new govt progress ?
If the fuel price does not come down then I am afraid nothing will change and worst case tax will increase.
A commodity reliant on the global market....that's as dog shit a metric as I could imagine. You might as well measure success by the smell of your farts.
You might as well measure success by the smell of your farts.
Had a chicken jalfrezi and some youngs ordinary yesterday evening, and I am pleased to confirm the Starmer govt is going to be highly successful, as is my local libdem MP
So that’s what, 15 years out of the last 35 that we’ve had objectively incompetent government whichever side you support. That’s the real problem for the UK.
The real problem is that the Conservatives have a far more capable election machine than anyone else. Labour has only managed 33 years in power since 1900, the Conservatives had achieved that between 1900 and 1955 (sometimes with Liberal support).
Labour didn't achieve three consecutive terms until 1997-2010
"purile" "Peurile (sp)"
Puerile
You might as well measure success by the smell of your farts.
explains all the cheese eating on election night!
Has Keir not sorted the situation in Gaza yet?
There is no need to take the piss. The situation in Gaza is horrific. Among the many horrors created by a brutal far-right government people are starving and children are being killed or orphaned.
Hopefully the new Labour government will do more than the last Tory government in condemning Netanyahu and his extreme right-wing allies and taking constructive steps to force Israel to comply with international law.
Last week Israel announced the largest seizure yet of land in the occupied West Bank, in flagrant violation of the Geneva Convention. Don't tell me that the international community cannot do anything about a country which shows so much contempt for international law.
Later this morning whilst you are sitting there taking the piss I will be yet again in Central London to remind, this time the new government, that many people throughout the country care about genocide and the actions of a racist far-right government. As last Thursday's general election emphasized, a point which he might have taken.
Starmer's appointment of the new Attorney General, a Jewish lawyer who very strongly supports the moral and legal case of boycotting the apartheid regime in Israel is hugely encouraging, and I certainly welcome it.
However it is not a case of Job Done, the struggle for justice and a better world is an endless one. Hopefully a Labour government is a step in the right direction but it doesn't mean that we can all go home, put the telly on, and forget about everything.
Apologies Ernesto for being flippant. I do admire your commitment to the cause. like everyone, I’m absolutely horrified by what’s going on and never thought I’d witness a western-backed democracy committing genocide with apparent impunity
I’m just questioning what can be done in the face of a hardline Israeli regime that doesn’t even seem to care what anyone in Washington thinks. Obviously I live in hope that the change of government now leads to a more enlightened policy towards this abhorrent, murderous Israeli regime. Good luck today
So that’s what, 15 years out of the last 35 that we’ve had objectively incompetent government whichever side you support.
Id say with pragmatic caution; starmers government looks to shape politics away from personal greed to public servitude, this is perhaps the catalyst of change to that.
public servitude
Patrick Vallance appointed as Science Minister. At least someone experience in err Science policy. A lordship normally follows from serving as CSO. It did for Lord (Bob) May, for example.
I will remind people again, that the last Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (PV's boss) was previously a sub-editor at Marie Claire and a press officer for WWF. He succeeds the accountant, Andrew Griffith. Those were the depths plumbed to maintain a Brexit cabinet. Who knows? Perhaps bringing in a few "experts" might be beneficial to future policy.
Can I just suggest, with the election over and the discussion starting to shift a bit (more) to other aspects of politics, is it time to move to a new thread?
The! New! Beginning! Or something?
Or keep it going until the next general election. I am already waiting in anticipation for the first opinion polls.
But yeah. Wud make sense
"A! New! Hope!" Would keep the sci-fi geeks happy. If there is such a thing as a happy sci-fi geek.
Binners to play Han Solo would be the obvious choice.
I expect the Starmer government will be competent. The direction may not be what i want but i do not doubt this.
Most women in a cabinet. First woman chancellor.. Folk with relevant knowledge and experience in key posts.
Technocrat government.
It's not over yet, one seat still to go.
Technocrat government
It's a fascinating phrase that could be said as an accusations but heard as a compliment, or vice versa.
Thinking back to the governments of our times which ones could be labelled as technocrat...Brown, Major maybe. Of course technocrat does not have to conflate with competent.
Personally I think a technocrat government is exactly what we need right now, as much to counter populism than for the prosperity, health and happiness of the nation. The bell curve of political beliefs has the vast majority of us as some flavour of centrist. The bulk of the population is also who will elect the next government after this one. Also the vast majority of the population are not well read politically, they don't have an especially sophisticated understanding of the world beyond their immediate experience. They consume the world beyond that through the editing of headline makers and clickbait soundbite generators. A government of quiet competent (or technocrats) that does not enrage that middle of the bell curve philosophically should give them time to think sensibly what issues of voting for the polpulist alternative might mean in the real world beyond the protest vote.
Very few people like "the management" at their job of work. Grudging respect is probably the best most can strive as a long term relationship. Those that try to position themselves as hip and dynamic normally get stale and found out philosophically over time. If we want to bring back the masses from the verge of voting populist in big enough numbers to change history and to forgo the "Britain has had enough of experts" ideology we need a few years of demonstrating that quiet competence and stability is a good thing. That valuing experts rather than froth makers is a grown up position.
And finally honesty is what I want. I want people who can try to educate the population that the world is not black or white. It's complicated. Gaza is a terrible but superb example of that and I hope this new government is able to take a lead on demonstrating how you hold a position on such an awful situation.
The ideology needs to change if we want anything to change for the better.
Otherwise accept much worse material conditions.
We have to stop thinking that competence is the bare minimum to fixing anything like the problems we face.
Competence will not fix a shift in inequality or anything like. This Centrist barometer will fall apart very quickly otherwise (like it does time and time again.)
A country like ours needs a huge shift in ideology and pragmatism to create a better society. Stop pretending otherwise. If you think Starmer and Reeves are going to do a great job by turning up on time and filling in forms neatly you have clearly misunderstand the fault lines of the UK.
It’s not over yet, one seat still to go.
It is now.
Inverness, Skye and West Ross-shire called for LD after SNP concede. 72 seats.
If you think Starmer and Reeves are going to do a great job by turning up on time and filling in forms neatly
It's an encouraging start given the shower that went before. I agree with you that we need more and also the Chancellor should stop referring to a lack of money, she literally can create money by approving large scale infrastructure projects.
Maybe we need a new thread on the government's direction as the election is now all done.
If you think Starmer and Reeves are going to do a great job by turning up on time and filling in forms neatly
A better analogy for the ‘form filling’ is unblocking the toilet, rewiring the electrics and fixing the roof. Yeah we want a nice sofa and decent food but that comes down the line…
72 seats is the largest Liberal – LibDem presence in the House of Commons for 101 years.
Politics is changing
I'm not so sure - they've not attracted many more votes than 2019. Fair play for a very smart, targeted campaign though.
We have to stop thinking that competence is the bare minimum to fixing anything like the problems we face.
You're right of course, but it's a start, and they deserve a little patience.
It is now.
Inverness, Skye and West Ross-shire called for LD after SNP concede. 72 seats.
Where's the announcement? Election counter still showing it as undeclared.
(I realise it's semantics at this point but the SNP only conceded and that was last night, final count isn't in.)
I’m not so sure – they’ve not attracted many more votes than 2019. Fair play for a very smart, targeted campaign though.
All this hand wringing about fewer votes than last time. This time a new party has taken 14% - over 4m votes and the turnout is lower. So of course the vote count is down for the main parties.
You’re right of course, but it’s a start, and they deserve a little patience.
Certainly a bit more than 1 day.
I’m not so sure – they’ve not attracted many more votes than 2019. Fair play for a very smart, targeted campaign though.
That is the point I am making. The largest amount of MPs for 101 years even if it isn't the largest share of the vote. Just like Labour won on Thursday a huge landslide, their second biggest ever, with half a million less votes than 5 years ago
Politics is changing, wouldn't you say?
Talking of competence and new beginnings/change - this is interesting - Lord Shoeleather 😉 talking about prisons. Creative thinking? Certainly different.
This is interesting;
I can't see Labour being too keen on PR based on that.
As has been said a number of times, it's just too simplistic to transpose the votes as cast in a FPTP election into a PR system and expect a meaningful response. It completely missed out the nuances of tactical voting, the campaign strategies by the parties and the number of parties.
It's very obvious that UK under PR would not have a massive majority like we have, but it wouldn't be that either.
Politics is changing, wouldn’t you say?
Agreed, but it's hard to say what the direction of travel is right now. Lib and Labour barely more popular than five years ago was a surprise to me.
To NeilNevill's point should we start a new thread - perhaps.
(Hope this doesn't come across as preachy BTW - that's not the intent)
But we need to keep the energy up through this parliament. We need to engage, we need to make sure that we push back against Reform's call. Many of us on here are engaged to a greater/lesser extent, in different political hues, some all the time, some just at election time, but we can't be complacent, otherwise Farage and his like will win.
After being involved in anti-Boris efforts for GE2019 i was totally disillusioned and did nothing for too long. But fortunately some LibDems here kept going, kept organising, won the district council, kept organising and their PPC was voted as MP pushing out the Tory. We need to make sure we are supporting local efforts to promote left/centre left/centre right politics, and driving out the far right.
Hopefully Starmer will be looking at efforts to make them irrelevant too, but should we try in our own small ways to make a difference in our own communities too?
I'm going to try and engage more in my locality and support the people here who have already devoted so much to fighting for a better politics. (I appreciate that depending on where you are this is easier in some places than others. My parents and sister live in Great Yarmouth, and will be utterly dismayed that Reform got through. How does Labour transform the lot of those neglected coastal towns?)
Where’s the announcement? Election counter still showing it as undeclared.
(I realise it’s semantics at this point but the SNP only conceded and that was last night, final count isn’t in.)
Apparently there is another count underway today but as you say SNP have conceded.
Agreed, but it’s hard to say what the direction of travel is right now. Lib and Labour barely more popular than five years ago was a surprise to me.
I think that is the function of the way this election has been fought under FPTP. Labour have targeted places where they could win. LibDem too. So both parties have not changed share, but where those votes have been cast is much more focussed.
I have been a supporter of PR, and despite what's happened, i think it's probably still important, because next time round we don't want Reform to win with 35% of the vote.
I know some of you think PR is dangerous, but I think if you show everybody that their vote counts they will vote instead of staying home. I think a lot of Reform protest votes would have gone to Labour in some seats. I think Greens would have received a lot more votes instead of donating those votes to tactical campaigns.
I don't think it as scary as it seems. I think had we had PR since the 80s we wouldn't have had such a hard time. I think Labour would have seen a lot more time in govt, and i think we would still be in the EU. And i don't think Farage would have made so much headway.
Yes it's complex, and a long-term issue, but unless we do change things, then we risk a Reform (or worse) govt at some point.
I'm certainly going to spend some time really understanding how PR might work for the UK
Agreed, but it’s hard to say what the direction of travel is right now. Lib and Labour barely more popular than five years ago was a surprise to me.
The direction is anti Tory Party, Thursday was their worse result in 200 years, 5 years ago they won a huge majority.
The challenge is to direct that disillusionment with the Tories away from another more extreme form of the Tory Party.
Let's hope the current Labour government is up for the challenge
I think that is the function of the way this election has been fought under FPTP. Labour have targeted places where they could win. LibDem too. So both parties have not changed share, but where those votes have been cast is much more focussed.
I get that, and that both parties fought smart campaigns to maximise their returns. But the two parties combined had less than 50% of votes cast, which I find troubling.
As has been said a number of times, it’s just too simplistic to transpose the votes as cast in a FPTP election into a PR system and expect a meaningful response.
I've long been a supporter of electoral reform but I do wonder if a "pure" PR system (on a national vote share basis) takes away the wants of local areas. Is there any love here for something along the lines of single transferrable vote within the existing constituency setup?
Come on people. You won, get over it.. 😉
I’ve long been a supporter of electoral reform but I do wonder if a “pure” PR system (on a national vote share basis) takes away the wants of local areas.
I think i suggested up thread (somewhere still in double not triple digits) that a PR thread would be good post election.
Electoral reform society has lots of resources online. The Scottish and German PR systems use a form of PR that looks to balance proportionality with local connection and representation. There are a number of ways of doing PR, with different pro/con trade offs.
https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voting-systems/types-of-voting-system/additional-member-system/
I get that, and that both parties fought smart campaigns to maximise their returns. But the two parties combined had less than 50% of votes cast, which I find troubling.
But that assumes that everyone would have voted the same way under PR. I was one of those people at polling stations collecting info on who had turned out. Lots of people here voted LibDem, but indicated as they left that while they were voting LibDem they wanted to vote Labour.
With the additional member system above you can vote for your local representative, and your party preference.
Looking at the PR split shown on the ERS site, if you add the greens into the Lab/Lib numbers, you do get over 50%. And that is probably pretty representative of how the UK is.
But that assumes that everyone would have voted the same way under PR.
I haven't assumed that! But from turnout and split, I'm only able to conclude that the election points to profound disillusionment. Starmer has a huge job to turn it around.
But the two parties combined had less than 50% of votes cast, which I find troubling.
Are you sure about your arithmetic? But yes it would appear that the combined Tory-Labour vote on Thursday was the lowest since WW2 or WW1 or something, this I actually welcome.
We need to nail this false claim that there are only two choices and everyone simply has to accept that.
Speaking of elections I really hope this helps
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx824yl3ln4oReformist Masoud Pezeshkian has been elected as Iran's new president, beating his hardline conservative rival Saeed Jalili.
The vote was declared in Dr Pezeshkian's favour after he secured 53.3% of the more than 30 million votes counted. Mr Jalili polled at 44.3%.
Are you sure about your arithmetic? But yes it would appear that the combined Tory-Labour vote on Thursday was the lowest since WW2 or WW1 or something, this I actually welcome.
I was talking about Labour and the Lib Dems, which were 46% combined. They were 43.7% in 2019.
More of the groundbreaking idea of placing experts with progressive, forward-looking views into the appropriate roles. Its mad that after the recent ‘we’ve had enough of experts’ years, this is actually quite as novelty
https://Twitter.com/iandunt/status/1809556386730119327?s=46&t=1lK7Dw1b6RqGJyvufO-trQ
