Keir Starmer's eighth pledge, which he made in 2020, was fine:
8. Radical devolution of power, wealth and opportunity
Push power, wealth and opportunity away from Whitehall. A federal system to devolve powers – including through regional investment banks and control over regional industrial strategy. Abolish the House of Lords – replace it with an elected chamber of regions and nations.
I can't see anything wrong with that.
I actually find your contempt for “the population” quite insulating. But there you are…..we all have our different points of view.
So you're OK with the population voting for Brexit, 14 years of Tory rule, destruction of public services, demonisation of anyone deemed to be other because that's what people voted for, again and again. You're entitled to your point of view of course but personally I'd rather live in a country where there is some mutual respect and universal support for people who need it. Shame that's not what people voted for but if you're happy to support people voting on the grounds of ignorance and intolerance crack on.
If they can’t proofread a leaflet, what else can’t they be trusted on the detail of
Is the answer other unimportant issues?
OK, comment withdrawn. It wasn't serious. Sorry for any slight distraction from the bighitter circular bickering.
FFS
@theotherjonv we just can't see what your point is, I've read it twice now which is twice as many times as I care to and am now bored. So once again, for the hard of thinking, what are you on about?
Is it the non-traditional spelling of 'Zöe' which the Guildford LDs website suggests is how she spells it?
Intrigued what I'm not seeing now.
What are the second and third words of the headline?
Oops.
I reckon there are two missing words that somehow didn't get printed, "c**ts and"
OK, comment withdrawn. It wasn’t serious.
Okay but on a side note I quite like the idea that the LibDem election leaflet being pushed through letterboxes in Guildford might contain spelling errors.
It suggests that instead of a slick professionally produced leaflet from the national party local party members have produced their own leaflet discussing local issues.
Part of the problem with contemporary politics imo is that it is marketed as a business and with little actual substance and conviction. Although still a long way away we are moving ever closer to the American model of politics.
What are the second and third words of the headline?
Oh ffs, can't see the woods for the trees!
Yup, repeated words are a recurring problem are a problem which forever baffles me. I'm constantly having to strike them out.
Ho ho
And then put in a maximum voting age of 60
So people who are still economically active will be banned, makes no sense. However I'd like to see a maximum age for standing for election of 67 and a maximum age to hold office of 72.
How about (based on a made up life expectancy of 78) you get 60 voting points at 18 and it then drops by one a year as you get older. The young (who traditionally aren’t great at actually voting I know) have on average to live with the consequences for longer of a dubious administration, referendum result of the like and therefore should be listened to more.
I am open to variations on the points scheme - perhaps as simple as 110 minus your age so as not to disenfranchise the old (well not as much) and to account for different voting ages for different elections.
For reference I am shortly to be 53.
https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1794443322641047575
The very latest Opinium poll, fieldwork done yesterday and Thursday.
Opinium because of their methodology have consistently been more generous to the Tories than other pollsters. I suspect that they are likely to be the most accurate.
Its still a comfortable Labour lead but a lot can happen between now and July 4th.
Interesting chat with my brexity sister in law today
She's very angry at farage for ditching reform & running off to America & doesn't like Tice
Won't vote Labour & doesn't like Sunak, so has no idea whether she'll bother voting
That opinium poll has reform lower than others too and I can see that bearing out.
She’s very angry at farage for ditching reform & running off to America & doesn’t like Tice
Eh? Hasn't he taken time off from GB News to campaign for Reform UK?
What were the chances that he would have been a candidate in her constituency anyway?
The poll posted above states 55% currently believe it was wrong for the UK to leave the EU. I can only see that increasing, especially if 16 & 17 year olds are allowed to vote in 2029
Why do you think 16 and 17 year olds would be particularly interested in something that happened when they were 6 or 7 years old based on a vote that happened when they were 2 or 3 years old?
A sensible 2nd chamber idea could involve turning House of Commons into an English parliament, with HoL becoming an elected UK upper chamber for reviewing legislation from all 4 UK lower chambers within a federated UK.
Apart from the fact that the English electorate has no interest in a devolved legal parliament, your suggestion would:
- be much worse for Scotland and Wales (and nuclear for NI) because you'd have a UK legislature in a position to veto devolved legislation
- not have a space for legislating on issues that aren't devolved to turn assemblies eg foreign policy.
Wowzers
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1794473571420368971?t=FZXJQqiXVfp0r9sU-IPZmQ&s=19
I'm not sure this is well thought out, I suppose they've anyway lost the youth vote anyway, but still not sure how popular this is with older voters?
Eh? Hasn’t he taken time off from GB News to campaign for Reform UK?
No, he's buggered off to grift in the US
Eh? Hasn’t he taken time off from GB News to campaign for Reform UK?
She's upset because he's not running as an MP
And she wanted him to lead the party
She gets all her knowledge of the world from GBNews
Is it wrong to hope farage will be flying by light plane again, and doesn't get so lunch this time?
I’m not sure this is well thought out, I suppose they’ve anyway lost the youth vote anyway, but still not sure how popular this is with older voters?
It will be as welcome as a fart in a lift with the forces chiefs of staff. All those couldn't give a **** recruits to manage for a year.
Well I for one think mandatory volunteering is a fantastic idea, I'd like to see any of you lot come up with something better when you're smashed out your face on whatever he's been having.
I’m not sure this is well thought out, I suppose they’ve anyway lost the youth vote anyway, but still not sure how popular this is with older voters?
going by the fail (or the tory faithful) comments section I don't think this is the policy they are looking for.
going by the fail (or the tory faithful) comments section I don’t think this the policy they are looking for.
Yeah I read that too. They seem to hate the policy for mainly the same reason that I think it might possibly be a good idea.
The idea of having an army full of kids who hate the army, and everything about it, fills them with complete horror. I actually think that it's quite healthy. After all the US draft played a significant role in ending the Vietnam war.
But yeah, I think the geezer has lost his mind. He seems to be on a mission to secure a huge landslide victory for Labour.
Starmer must be wondering what the hell he has done to deserve such recurring good luck.
And then put in a maximum voting age of 60
I'll be happy to stop voting if it means I'm not paying any tax.
Why do you think 16 and 17 year olds would be particularly interested in something that happened when they were 6 or 7 years old based on a vote that happened when they were 2 or 3 years old?
The demographic gets increasingly anti-brexit the younger the population. My guess is young people are quite unimpressed with the shitshow we have given them
Interestingly as well since the Election date was called intention to vote has increased dramatically, particularly among 18-24 year olds, with an increase in 17 points!
just looked @ uk population by age group, the Army could have to find facilities to house 1 million new recruits 😕
But yeah, I think the geezer has lost his mind. He seems to be on a mission to secure a huge landslide victory for Labour.
I actually think this is Sunak and Hunts plan. They have trashed the country so badly, time for a quick exit, and then start blaming the next government for all of it.
Edit: Also I think they realise will lose to Labour so will come up with increasingly batshit promises (like national service) in the hope they hold off Reform. It must have been a moment of "clarity" when they came up with that one ha ha
“I’ll be happy to stop voting if it means I’m not paying any tax.”
sadly that’s not how it works. My wife pays a hell of a lot of tax yet isn’t allowed to vote in anything other than local elections…
just looked @ uk population by age group, the Army could have to find facilities to house 1 million new recruits
The devil is in the detail. If I have read it correctly there would only be 30000 in the forces for a whole year selected competitively ( “ the brightest and best” ), everyone else would have mandatory “voluntary” work ( yes, I know but apparently that is what it says) for 12 weekends in the year. Still going to cost many, many millions per year
The Daily Telegraph really has firmly secured the mantle of newspaper for the deranged swivel-eyed loonies. Eat your heart Daily Mail.
"So it is extremely welcome that the Conservatives have come up with a refreshingly bold idea to restore a sense of national pride among the younger generation."
the prime minister has unveiled a plan that would see 18-year-olds given the choice of a full-time military placement for 12 months or a scheme to volunteer for one weekend a month for a year...The placement would be selective - with tests used to decide who is eligible - and involve working with the armed forces or in cyber defence. The voluntary option would see young people spending 25 days with organisations such as the police, the fire service, the NHS, or charities that work with older isolated people...."To those who complain that making it mandatory is unreasonable, I say: citizenship brings with it obligations as well as rights."
1) There's no need for the Army to find 1 million new units of accommodation. Practically no-one would join the military: only whoever wanted to go and the military actually wanted. The rest of these kids will be pushed over to "the NHS" (but presumably not the privatised parts) etc to find some time-wasting nonsense to do for one weekend a month. Not sure what the Tories think a fire service would do with a bunch of unskilled 18 year olds...but in any case all this only comes after a Royal Commission reports its findings (by which time it will all have been forgotten and any awkwardness can be blamed on the woke judge that chaired the commission).
2) Sunak has never served a day in his life in the military or law enforcement or the fire service, not as an employee or a volunteer. Neither has his wife. Not her parents. Nor his parents. And not his siblings either. Sunak's first day as an MP was the first day he ever was employed in any kind of public body.
Sunak's sudden enthusiasm for the military and national service is the result of zero personal experience and an understanding that it's the kind of thing that other people's kids do.
Absolute non starter of a policy. Tomorrow will be bringing back corporal punish schools and Monday it will be the death penalty. If it wasn't so serious it would be hysterical how desperate they have become.
Not sure what the Tories think a fire service would do with a bunch of unskilled 18 year olds
https://www.tiktok.com/@iloveyou..1999/video/7266509070960577835
The only demographic in favour of National Service are the over 65's. All other age groups are against it. Sunak knows this, so its purely to defend against Reform grabbing what votes are left from the Gammons.
The £2.5 billion it will cost, is also unfunded, as Labour pointed out.
They’re just desperately trying to shore up their ever diminishing core vote ( because they’re all literally dying)
This is basically ‘bring back national service’ and let’s all pretend it’s 1955
its absolutely tragic really. Not to mention completely mental! Next thing they’ll be wanting us all to carry ration books and gas masks
They’re just desperately trying to shore up their ever diminishing core vote ( because they’re all literally dying)
The irony being that the worsening Health Service, decimated by the party they voted for, has accelerated this as life expectancy is decreasing
So from 16 onwards in Rishi’s world you’d be forced to study maths then join the army?
Christ, he really is a ****ing moron, isn’t he?
Its only been a few days and already he’s reached the Alan Partridge stage. Just blurting out random ideas
Tomorrow: Monkey Tennis and Youth Hostelling with Chris Eubank
It's obviously a stupid and not even slightly serious policy but it'll appeal to some people... And if you're one of those peple why are you not asking "why now"? Dude's been PM for a year and a half, the party's been in power for a decade and a half, and they're coming out with this in the last 5 minutes of their time in power.
If you think national service is a good idea you should be saying * off Rishi Sunak. And if you don't you should definitely be saying * off Rishi Sunak. And the same for every other damn fool announcement he'll make in the coming weeks- if it was a good idea why didn't you do it.
Tories talk about national service for 16 yr olds.
Labour talk about lowering the voting age to 16.
Tories aint never ever getting any votes from 16 yr olds 😆
The only demographic in favour of National Service are the over 65’s.
How many over 65’s do you know well enough to draw that conclusion? This over 65 says phük that for a game of soldiers! And I’m prepared to bet most others are as well, ‘cos I actually know a few, surprisingly enough.
Having had some fresh-faced individual who looked barely past school leaving age come to my front door on Friday evening canvassing for the Chippenham candidate, whose name meant nothing to me, and who barely got eight words out before I said not interested, I came home from archery yesterday lunchtime to find a leaflet stuffed through my letterbox.
I wrote ‘RETURN TO SENDER’ across it with a Sharpie and posted it in a post box on my way into town a bit later.
Won’t achieve much, except make me feel a bit better, but it’s the little things that count. 😁
Well, if you want to motivate younger voters to vote, threatening then with National Service is one way of doing it I suppose! Though they wont vote in a way to help the Tories!
All this is pretty stunning really, the Tory campaign is an absolute cluster fudge.
I'm sure there will be some mess ups in the Labour campaign too, it's inevitable but come on, the Tories are almost trolling themselves at this point.
I suppose a totally dysfunctional government was always going to lead to a dysfunctional election campaign.
Shocker! 😁
You know the episode of Peep Show where Alan gets Mark to create ‘Project Zeus’, by sitting in a hotel room on his own for 24 hours with no sleep.
It seems Rishi Sunak is now using the same approach to come up with new policies
^^ lol, just thinking of that episode made me chuckle and yes, very true!
P.s. what the hell were we all doing up at near 3am talking politics!?😁
I best head up soon. If I don't I'm going to start watching Peep Show and before I know it, it'll be 8am.😂
Satire is dead. Imagine being so desperate, that with all the "potential improvements" possible in the UK which they could propose to the nation - this is what you pull out of your hat on day 3 of your campaign? Jesus wept.
I mean, even if he left out the national service bit and just went with something to incentivise volunteering in 16-18 year olds - he could still campaign on the "young people need more national pride, work ethic etc". It would still be weak, but not as monumentaly out-of-touch as this.
Over 65? Without any grandkids I suppose?
It's just moronic. If labour have any sense they'll refuse to even discuss it, instead pointing at what it is: a ridiculous, unworkable brainfart, and the sign of a party who have absolutely no idea what the country want or need - how can anyone take these people seriously? Dickheads
Well, I suppose we will inevitably get an announcement that they want to bring back hanging by campaign day 7?
Perhaps announce an attempt to put a British rocket and Torynaut on the moon by 2025 and invade Argentina on day 1 of a new Tory government?
Seems logical enough.
Ah, government by announcement. So much easier than enacting actual policies. Way too much work involved.
1) There’s no need for the Army to find 1 million new units of accommodation. Practically no-one would join the military: only whoever wanted to go and the military actually wanted. The rest of these kids will be pushed over to “the NHS” (but presumably not the privatised parts) etc to find some time-wasting nonsense to do for one weekend a month. Not sure what the Tories think a fire service would do with a bunch of unskilled 18 year olds…but in any case all this only comes after a Royal Commission reports its findings (by which time it will all have been forgotten and any awkwardness can be blamed on the woke judge that chaired the commission).
All very true but for the voters who don't think about anything for more than 10 seconds (50+% of them) the policy will sound good to them I imagine. They just go by the bullet points and don't think about implementation of it or whether it could even work. But I get the sense that even those people have had enough of Rishi's bullshit.
It seems Rishi Sunak is now using the same approach to come up with new policies
I think he's mentally checked out completely. Literally just going through the motions with half an eye on his new mansion in California as he hangs out with Elon
In fact I almost think they don't want to win. People have now realised that the country is in the shit (almost literally!) and no amount of platitudes that "the plan is working" will convince them otherwise.
Also, there's not a lot left for the Tories to steal or palm off to their mates. They all want out now. Leave the mess to Labour.
National Service terrifies anyone in defence, the logistics is scary enough, but the already threadbare services would have to manage the risks posed by kids who will come in all shapes and sizes will be horrific, it's a weird death cry from Sunak, he knows it's dead in the water, and for some reason he's even antagonising his own voters, as the military tend to vote tory in general.
We need to increase the opportunities for 16 year olds who are almost lost to the system, get them in apprenticeships, learning decent trades, camaraderie and so on, get the government into building stuff again to support a greener future, get high level apprenticeships in there and build a future.
We need to increase the opportunities for 16 year olds who are almost lost to the system, get them in apprenticeships, learning decent trades, camaraderie and so on, get the government into building stuff again to support a greener future, get high level apprenticeships in there and build a future.
But...but... DISCIPLINE! And RESPECT!.
Ans also marching and shooting and things to teach kids errr... something.
God forbid they should be given OPPORTUNITIES!
No, they just need to be shouted at a bit and made to march up and down. That'll work.
I think it's another dead cat policy. The main thing to look for is what the Tories are ramming through quickly in the background while the media go "ooh, National Service!" and the Torygraph and Mail tell us how great it'll be and everyone with any sense says it'll never work. Meanwhile, someone somewhere is forcing through some clause in a legal document that says you no longer have the right to a trial by jury....
I don't think national service in itself is a bad thing. However, if you look at western countries that actually have national service it looks very different to what I'd imagine the average Tory voter is envisioning.
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2024/01/norway-young-people-compete-serve-military/393599/
Hey, it’s no sillier than trying to send refugees to Rwanda. 🤣
one weekend per month volunteering in roles such as special constable, RNLI volunteer, or NHS responder.
egads!
I don’t think national service in itself is a bad thing.
I think it is a great candidate for a referendum.
Just have the unusual feature that votes arent secret and anyone who votes in favour get "volunteered" whatever their age.
I suspect the number in favour might drop somewhat.
Couple of questions:
1. How does national service in other countries work where it is successful?
2. What would need to be done for it to work in the UK?
🤣
Service brings citizenship! Do you want to know more?
someone’s been watching Starship Troopers after a Friday night coke and champers binge…
I often come across National Service infrastructure when out and about, and looking at old maps. Otherwise closed railways serving long vanished camps and training grounds before closing for good before Marples and Beeching. Where would they fit their "volunteers"
Not sure if this has been posted on previous pages, but as far as I can work out, no one under the age of 85 in the UK has completed national service......sure it'll get a load of support from the boomers who harp on about WW2 even though they were likely not born then.
I hope that it goes into the Tory manifesto; when they lose, then it's very easy to then say that national service was overwhelming rejected by the electorate.
It’s obviously a stupid and not even slightly serious policy but it’ll appeal to some people…
Judging from the comments on the Daily Mail website not many people. And the policy was announced in an article which Rishi Sunak personally wrote for the Daily Mail.
So far the only enthusiastic response I have seen to bringing back national service has come from Daily Telegraph editorial writers who aren't very happy about young people demonstrating against the genocidal slaughter of innocent civilians, apparently it makes them "extremists".
Back in the great days of the British Empire young people understood the unfortunate need for colonists to regularly slaughter ungrateful indigenous populations. Cecil Rhodes would have approved.
>>The only demographic in favour of National Service are the over 65’s<<
I'm 77 and missed it (thankfully) by 3 years. I can't think of a single contemporary of mine who has advocated its return. Even those I know who actually did national service want it back.
no one under the age of 85 in the UK has completed national service……
My father who is 92 did National service, and got sent to the Korean War. As I have said before on this topic, he absolutely hated his entire time, whilst in Korea he was patronised and belittled by the regular army and it instilled in him a active dislike of any authority and a passionate dislike of the Monarchy., both of which he passed on to me and my brother. So if his experience is anything to go by I am not sure any compulsory service of any kind will actually do what he intended.
As a balance , his best friend spent his NS as an officer driving tanks around Salisbury Plain and quite enjoyed the experience, so I am guessing it would depend on the context and influence as is always the case here.
If I was yoof I'd rather be offered better opportunities to train, apprenticeships,, further education without massive debt, the realistic chance of buying my own home, the chance to live work and love abroad, a reasonable prospect of a state pension, basically all the things the sort of person who votes Tory had
Too much to ask?
It seems like it
Say what you like about the Tories but the one thing they are very good at is winning general elections.
Which is why I am completely baffled as to what the **** they are playing at. Coming up with a harebrained nonsensical policy, totally unrelated to the real issues affecting ordinary people's lives, is always going generate a lot of discussions and airtime which could otherwise be spent more usefully.
The Tories are past masters at creating myths concerning their alledged superior understanding of economics, wtf aren't they talking about that instead of talking bollocks about reintroducing national service?
They have only 6 weeks to focus on new myths and to attempt to fool voters, why are they wasting time coming up with ideas from 1960s Carry On films?
And while Rishi is suggesting recreating Dads Army, a Lib Dem spokesman has just been on the radio suggesting the effort may be better spent on regulating the water companies properly so they’re no longer paying themselves billions to literally fill the countries waterways full of shit
Imagine that?
I heard some Tory in the radio talking about banning smart phones for u16...as a parent of a 13 year old and a teacher, I would almost consider voting for them to see them try!!
