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Primary as in first contact with - not necessarily GP's. Don't focus on the use of that word, more the principal I was getting at.
My point was if you need to seek medical help, whether that be GP, A&E, self referral, you shouldn't need to pay to expedite being seen
My overseas postal vote hasn't turned up so I guess I am going to be one of the disenfranchised this election.
Contacted my local council back home to ask if they could set me up for an emergency proxy vote and apparently they can't. They said its not their fault as they dispatched on time and to "take it up with Royal Mail."
Democracy in action.
I see the Tories use of their made-up nonsense ‘Supermajority’, which Sunak has been endlessly repeating, is going well…
I suspect that for many it's not that they want to see a labour supermajority, rather they want an absolute, smoking, desolate ruin of a tory party on Friday morning. Big beasts* having to give congratulatory speeches to their opponents. Rishi having to admit he has been truly rejected by the people that matter, having not been selected by them in the first place.
We've discussed at length whether that is actually a good thing or not, whether it opens the door for a new centre right or just makes the remnants + Reform into a further right party instead. That's a problem for 8th July onwards. Right now, this is pure vindictive payback time, and I've got the coffee on ready for a late night on Thursday.
* those that aren't already running away and hiding
Postal votes have been very slow coming out, only got ours late last week. Don't think anyone was expecting a snap election.
Gps are an odd one. Private businesses but basically one customer
I do not believe its a good system but i wouldn't tamper with it now. One for long term planning.
Given its the one place all of us access the health service, I'd actually say that IS the place to tamper with. I suspect GPs though will not welcome the interference.
I suspect GPs though will not welcome the interference.
Considering the current models problems I am not sure that would be a significant issue. The ones which are working as partnerships could be left alone and then the rest slowly rolled up over time.
Its worth noting the mechanism was put in place under new labour for the gps to be rolled together under a corporate banner. After a slow start it picked up under the tories especially with Centene but they are now exiting the market since they found it unprofitable.
Think of all the UK based families on holiday this week. Slow hand clap for Rishi.
If they are too lazy to just order a private jet flight back for thursday before heading back out again there is no helping them.
Considering the current models problems I am not sure that would be a significant issue. The ones which are working as partnerships could be left alone and then the rest slowly rolled up over time.
The trouble would be that "new" NHS GP surgeries would pop up in towns and suburbs where there's growing demand.
Leaving the older partnership ones in outlying villages.
Which doesn't inherently make it a 2-tier system, but it would need very careful management to make sure of it.
That and there's already a shortage of GP's / appointments so you can't encourage those existing ones to leave and make way for in-house GP surgeries because they'd probably just retire.
I and others in my family have had to resort to private healthcare.
Whereas Streeting hasn't done so, either for his cancer or for a scan for a recent scare. He has talked about making it possible for people <b>who </b>can't otherwise afford it to 'resort' in similar manner. As a temporary measure.
Talking to the several GPS I know, it’s a shortage of GP’ numbers generally and in addition, trying to get the ones that do exist to move to rural unfashionable areas that’s the biggest issue. The NHS owning the practices rather than the Dr’s isn’t necessarily going to sort that.
Worth pointing out that not owning the practices has saved the NHS a lot of money in property, equipment etc overhead and that’s part of the reason the system has not been changed. Doctors themselves are only part of the cost in operating a General Practice.
GP’s will also tell you that they are constantly expected to move their practicing closer to the way the Hospital system works and that “those in charge” are mainly hospital doctors driving this. The GP’s I know feel this is not an approach that works because primary care in the community via GP is very different to providing secondary care in a hospital system.
This isn’t in my direct experience but I have been told various versions by several different people who are part of General Practice.
Worth pointing out that not owning the practices has saved the NHS a lot of money in property, equipment etc
Well, yeah, but also if GPs didn't have to cover their own overheads, then the NHS could pay them less and it wouldn't affect their take home pay. And perhaps if surgeries were more centralised with the facilities provided by the NHS like any other employer, then there could be efficiencies on property, maintenance, IT, this, that, the other.
Don’t think anyone was expecting a snap election.
Certainly not the Conservative party
About 10 years ago my postal vote did not arrive. I went to the polling station on the day to ask what to do, they gave me a phone number. I rang, they took it very seriously and that afternoon at work a lady appeared with a voting paper. I voted on the bonnet of her car, popped it in a special satchel and off she went. Awesome.
@politecameraaction possibly. It’s probably not quite as simple as it appears.
I suspect that the NHS gets a lot of that stuff for less now via the current arrangements than it would cost to provide it all from scratch / buy it back.
I don’t know enough about the detail of gp arrangements to comment properly, I’m sure others can.
edit: a quick google reveals.....
GPCE chair Dr Katie Bramall-Stainer pointed out that since 2019, CPI inflation increased by 21.2%, while core contract investment only increased by 12.5%.
( core contract is not just GP pay but what the business is paid to provide it’s GP service)
also see....
https://www.pricebailey.co.uk/blog/national-minimum-wage-increase-doctors/
I see the Tories use of their made-up nonsense ‘Supermajority’, which Sunak has been endlessly repeating, is going well…
They seemed perfectly happy and triumphant with their 80-seat majority last time round.
Typical bunch of bullies - they can't stand it when the tables are turned. Same reason many of them are standing down this election - they have no interest in being in opposition, they just want to be in power. So much for democracy.
If I hear anyone complaining about a Labour supermajority, I'm going to respond with "Will of the people!" 😂
There was a party political broadcast on channel 4 just now for the Social Democratic Party
Its like a cheese dream, which then turns to a nightmare when Rod Liddle pops up to endorse them. Rod Liddle?!! Who thought he’d be a vote winner? 😳
Don’t think anyone was expecting a snap election.
Ladbrokes might say there were a few expecting it.
🤣
Yeah, didn't know the SDP were still a thing till a few days ago. Basically standing on a Reform type platform.
At the end it almost sounds reasonable, "we want, blah, blah, blah...defence of our culture...."
Wait, what? 😁
SDP - wut?!
The name of their party gave me some hope and the fact they are appealing (or trying to appeal) to the politically homeless almost sucked me in.
Until their advert was basically recycling tired tropes about the main parties and then banging on about culture and immigration as if that is all they need to fix.
Least they will split the reform vote where they stand.
I work on the theory that if a country/party/anything (delete as applicable) has the word 'democrat/democratic' in it then it most definitely won't be.
I work on the theory that if a country/party/anything (delete as applicable) has the word ‘democrat/democratic’ in it then it most definitely won’t be.
Usually translates to "tyrannical authoritarianism" in the places where it applies to countries.
Democratic Republic of Congo
Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea's official title)
RW political parties usually use it to mean "our version of democracy where we win". See also the Donald Trump thread.
And potentially anyone that didn't get there postal vote. Just read this on the Beeb. It doesn't go into any details but Google might throw it up.
If you haven't received your postal vote you can still ask for an emergency proxy vote.
With only 72 hours to go, you can do it online and the proxy is someone who votes on your behalf.
@ThePinkster You’ve clearly never seen a LD federal election pack.
Oh yeah, forgot about them. The exception that proves the rule? 😉
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/voting-and-elections/ways-vote/emergency-proxy-vote
IDK if postal vote not arriving is considered an emergency, possibly expectation is that you should act before now on that point.
https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1807842443133411585
first answer.... your wife?
@poopscoop I asked my council to do that (emergency proxy vote), this is what they said:
"Hi
Thank you for the update unfortunately the emergency proxy is not an option you have to run with the postal arrangement as all deadlines to amend, apply or cancel postal votes has now passed 5pm 19 June 2024
Regards"
So I said...
"
"Hi xxx,
The postal vote hasn't turned up, despite registering way ahead of the June deadline. I am seeing on the news today that there are issues all over the country with postal votes not being printed and delivered on time.
I would therefore request to register for an emergency proxy vote, not regular proxy vote, as the conditions have been met to warrant this due to unforeseen circumstances outside of my control.
Otherwise my democratic right to vote in this election is being disenfranchised.
Best wishes,
Mr. Devash"
To which they said...
"Hi
I can confirm that there has been no issues with printing or releasing of postal votes for Redcar Council, your postal vote was released 20 June and is now in the hands of Royal Mail, you may want to take this up with your local delivery office as all statutory dates and procedures have been met from this end.
Regards"
p.s. Redcar Council is Tory AF so go figure.
I see the little fella has said tonight that he’ll stay on as Tory leader after they lose on Thursday.
You can only assume thats as there aren’t going to be enough Tory MP’s left to write to the 1922 committee with the required letters.
Everyone knows he’ll be in California before the weekend anyway
Regarding postal votes, the Guardian have just published this.
It’s quite fitting that the mechanics of the election that will finish them has gone the same way as everything else they’ve touched for the last 14 years… a total ****ing shambles!
Thousands fear they will lose vote in UK election after postal ballot delays
Everyone knows he’ll be in California before the weekend anyway
He'll be getting a little note from mogg
It was our hustings tonight. There weren't any tickets left so I was unable to attend. Tbf I was only interested in asking the Reform candidate why his party and his campaign page are so full of hateful racist rhetoric. Luckily he'd posted his own phone number in his Facebook group, so I was able to phone him just as the hustings was starting so that I could ask him directly. Unfortunately he didn't answer, hopefully he'd forgotten to put his phone on silent though.
You can only assume thats as there aren’t going to be enough Tory MP’s left to write to the 1922 committee with the required letters.
isn’t it based on a % of the total, so the smaller the party the less letters needed?
A Conservative friend told me that Britain is being ruled and ruined by “The Blob” and that that is things will not improve after the election. It sounded to me very much like a British variation of the “Deep State” conspiracy in the USA.
Yeah, didn’t know the SDP were still a thing till a few days ago.
I don't think that bears any connection to "old school" Social Democracy. It looks to me like a co-opting of a name to appear less right wing than their manifesto suggests.
To put it another way, that's not Social Democracy.
He has talked about making it possible for people <b>who </b>can’t otherwise afford it to ‘resort’ in similar manner. As a temporary measure.
No he hasnt. What he has said us he will use the private sector to bring down waiting lists which as he has been told by the professionals and as i explained is not possible. There is not the spare capacity. Private healthcare cannot cover many things. It costs more.
The man is a paid shill for private healthcare.
A Conservative friend told me that Britain is being ruled and ruined by “The Blob” and that that is things will not improve after the election.
I find it hard to believe Mr Blobby could **** it up as badly as it is now.
A Conservative friend told me that Britain is being ruled and ruined by “The Blob” and that that is things will not improve after the election. It sounded to me very much like a British variation of the “Deep State” conspiracy in the USA.
That's precisely what it is, it's the helpful stock excuse populists use when when they do finally gain control over all the levers of power and can't get anything done because shouting catchy 3-word slogans doesn't fly when you actually have to make things happen in office.
Of course the downside of repeatedly hitting this particular button is that it makes your supporters even more conspiratorial and misinformed and makes them that bit more likely to turn on you when someone even nuttier and more conspiratorial (i.e. Reform or MAGA) comes along.
And perhaps if surgeries were more centralised with the facilities provided by the NHS like any other employer, then there could be efficiencies on property, maintenance, IT, this, that, the other.
Or like a bus station, so maybe they could also buy a fleet of buses to go to all the outlying areas to pick up patients who have no car or access to any other form of transportation. Like around here.
Remember when Ed Miliband was ridiculed for eating a bacon sandwich a bit funny?
Ed Davey doesn't give a shit what you think. This is how mad you can behave and still be in with a chance of being Leader of the Opposition against Rishi
https://twitter.com/DannyWittenberg/status/1807748931901689869
tj - you bang on incessantly about streeting being a paid shill for truck knows what; why not give it a rest until after the election, let 'the dust settle' and then decide what views you wish to emit - based on the facts.
You may be irritated/annoyed/frustrated by Labour's NHS policies but - never forget the four Fs...First Find the F Facts.
Facts, Facts, Facts.
Assumptions, presumptions, allegations, preferred interpretations are all irrelevant.
Let us, just get the fricking tories out.
Then we can argue all day long over the nasty mess they made.
Then we can argue all day long over the nasty mess they made.
Or rather the mess the Labour Party are continuing to make but then your defence will be that you had no choice but to vote for them did you. which is a fair defence however depressing.
I see that as everyone else has gone AWOL in the last couple of days before the reckoning, brain of Britain Chris Philp was sent out to defend the indefensible
After endlessly repeating the same lies as Rishi, he was nailed by the ever-excellent Victoria Derbyshire
“Is this how desperate you are now?
You’re literally making things up.”
https://Twitter.com/implausibleblog/status/1807912190386512110?s=46&t=1lK7Dw1b6RqGJyvufO-trQ
Frank.
Facts
Streeting has taken large sums of money from private healthcare
The private sector has little spare capacity
The various professional bodies have told Streeting using private healthcare will exacerbate the situation not improve it
Streeting has said he will ignore those who know
Let us, just get the fricking tories out.
This!
Don't be lulled into a false sense of security by the headlines and predictions of Labour landslide - if everyone thinks they're going to win regardless and doesn't vote / spoils their paper / votes for the joke candidate, the Tories will squeak back in.
Vote - tactically if necessary even if it might not be the preferred choice you'd get in a PR system. Don't spoil the paper!
Or rather the mess the Labour Party are continuing to make but then your defence will be that you had no choice but to vote for them did you. which is a fair defence however depressing.
That's a pretty obtuse argument to counter GTTO.
I see the little fella has said tonight that he’ll stay on as Tory leader after they lose on Thursday.
I can only imagine what words escaped the lips of Tory MPs when they heard that - the sentient ones, that is.
That’s precisely what it is, it’s the helpful stock excuse populists use when when they do finally gain control over all the levers of power and can’t get anything done because shouting catchy 3-word slogans doesn’t fly when you actually have to make things happen in office.
Of course the downside of repeatedly hitting this particular button is that it makes your supporters even more conspiratorial and misinformed and makes them that bit more likely to turn on you when someone even nuttier and more conspiratorial (i.e. Reform or MAGA) comes along.
That is a neat somethingion of where the Tories have CHOSEN to go down the rabbit hole opened by Brexit. They actively chose to do this to themselves (and us). So, frankly, **** them.
Your regular reminder that Labour whipped for and voted for this Brexit deal, and they refuse to countenance undoing any of the harm they wilfully caused.
That’s a pretty obtuse argument to counter GTTO.
I suppose it would be yes, however I wasn't countering GTTO I was making a point about what the discussion will be like once the tories are out and we are all living Starmers unambitious dream. Just getting in early...
Don’t be lulled into a false sense of security by the headlines and predictions of Labour landslide
Indeed, according to the opinion polls support for Labour is falling. The last three opinion polls all have Labour on 39%, which is less than Labour recieved in the 2017 general election.
It still looks very likely that Labour will have a comfortable majority but that has more to do with a divided rightwing vote and the vagary of first-past-the-post than the popularity of Labour.
It's worth remembering two things - firstly that the situation can significantly change in the last couple of days before a general election, and secondly that the last time a Labour landslide victory was predicted the then Labour Leader, Tony Blair, was seen as highly popular with the electorate, which doesn't reflect the current situation, and which suggests that the Labour vote is much softer.
Interesting program on channel 4 by more or less presenter Tim Harford on why we're in this mess. Bottom line is since 2008 just about every metric has tanked since the Tories came into office, except for business investment, that tanked in 2016 around the Brexit referendum. His take away was that despite record taxes investment in infrastructure and hardware is now half what it was and were now reaping the rewards of 15 years of it. The less you invest the more demand you generate for day to day support services.
We're now lagging behind pretty much the rest of Europe who have been through the same global shocks.
His other big take away was growth has stagnated, again due to a lack of investment, both public and private. But then who wants to invest in a country with a government so unpredictable and suicidal as ours.
People might not like the version of Labour on offer but what the country desperately needs is a period of stable leadership and increased investment which is what Labour is promising.
We can worry about rearranging the deck chairs when we have stopped the ship sinking.
the situation can significantly change in the last couple of days before a general election
Yup, the risk of people staying at home, or splitting the vote to make a point, is higher than ever after weeks of polls and seat predictions… plenty of people will wake up with a Conservative MP they had expected others to vote to defeat.
@stumpyjon - it'd be good if every voter watched that before Thursday. An independent voice laying out in the starkest manner imaginable the absolute folly of both austerity and then Brexit and the fact that its the decisions of 14 years of Tory governments that have delivered us to where we are today
And I couldn't agree more that what this country is desperate for more than anything is for people to be able to look to the UK as a country that actually has some grown-ups back in charge after the absolute ****ing circus its been since 2016
Essential viewing if you missed it last night...
Yup, the risk of people staying at home, or splitting the vote to make a point, is higher than ever after weeks of polls and seat predictions… plenty of people will wake up with a Conservative MP they had expected others to vote to defeat
100% agree
Last few polls out today or tomorrow, world be good if they show a Labour drop, just to stop complacency?
We can worry about rearranging the deck chairs when we have stopped the ship sinking.
Sorry the ship is being stopped from sinking, how exactly?
The problem is most of the problems date back prior to 2010, its just then that the bills started to become due. For example the looting of thames water really started under labour and peaked under the coalition before the wheels came off now.
A sinking ship requires somewhat drastic policies vs keeping things mostly the same.
To take the ship analogy its like removing the pissed captain from command but saying we will stick with the same course that he plotted.
Last few polls out today or tomorrow, world be good if they show a Labour drop, just to stop complacency?
If only labour were offering something more to people who were being attracted to the "minor parties" than just the "tories will get in".
Its depressing how heavily not only Labour but the tories are leaning on the same line. If you vote green,libdem/ukip you will get the tories/labour respectively.
The same course? I don’t know why parties bother with manifestos. You’re not alone though, plenty of my left leaning friends have bought into the “it makes no difference who’s in charge” line. Defeatism in place just as we finally have a chance to remove the Tories. On education, health, energy, climate, trade and, you know, governance… there’s an ocean between the Conservative and Labour manifestos… and teams.
Sorry the ship is being stopped from sinking, how exactly?
Do you actually really need to ask? Seriously?
Since 2016 the UK essentially hasn't had a government in any functioning form. As the channel 4 doc we're referencing shows, investment in the UK economy fell off a cliff on June 24th 2016 and its been in freefall ever since. It was pretty grim for the 8 years before that.
Until that is adressed with a period of stability delivered by a pragmatic government, not one ruled by an insane nationalist populist dogma, then this countrys decline will continue unchecked
What the doc also points out is that the UK is a leader in key areas for future development such as AI and Life Sciences and investors want to invest in their country, but they haven't done so because of the gang of loons that have been at the wheel since 2016.
A change of government to get shut of these charlatans and snake oil salesmen will represent a sea-change in the way this country is viewed internationally, with a resulting change in investment.
We have to deal with the world as it actually is, rather than how we'd like it to be
Oh, I posted the wrong link up before, this is the Tim Harford documentary. Its essential viewing...
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/skint-the-truth-about-britains-economy
The same course? I don’t know why parties bother with manifestos.
Neither do I since they generally break them at whim.
However lets take housing for a start. The labour proposition whilst not being quite as much a cash transfer to the housing companies is just vague words with no clear articulation of how the problem will be solved or indeed acknowledgement of the issue.
Energy. GBE has some good bits but is effectively unfunded.
and so forth. I know it might shock you but others may have read the manifestos and simply not been impressed by them. Even many starmerites acknowledge this with the ming vase bollocks.
others may have read the manifestos and simply not been impressed by them. Even many starmerites acknowledge this with the ming vase bollocks.
I'm wondering - or more accurately "desperately hoping and praying" - that Starmer might show a bit more backbone once he's in office and that, at the moment, he's deliberately saying nothing and being bland for a couple of reasons:
1). the Tories are quite happily screwing things up all of their own accord and the entire country knows it
2). if he says anything too controversial, the RW press will leap on it in seconds
I mean, if he says something like "we don't really care about the boats...", the headlines the next day will be "Starmer plans to let floods of immigrants invade us and he'll give them all YOUR house and job!"
Either way though, surely - even if you think Labour are much the same - you can see that another 5 years of a Tory Government just squeaking back into power will be the ultimate snatch and grab job for them. They'll leave a smoking ruin behind them.
This postal vote issue means we may have reached true omnishambles status
Indeed. Its a fitting end, isn't it?
The irony of it being that postal votes tend to go disproportionately to the Tories as a lot of them are used by pensioners, so they've shot themselves in the foot once again.
The irony of mocking people for moaning when that's all binners has done about Corbyn for 4 years... It's ok for people to have different opinions you know.
I'd prefer labour over Tories but if they get a huge majority I can't see them having any drive for reform. A narrower win may show that they have more people to get onside, or that they finally need to listen to their members about PR.
FWIW I took the long form vote for policies and didn't return a single Labour or Tory policy. I live in a safe labour seat so it's somewhat arbitrary in any case.
Ed Davey doesn’t give a shit what you think. This is how mad you can behave and still be in with a chance of being Leader of the Opposition against Rishi
I think that resonates well with ordinary people. It also resonates well with the media. He could waste his time arguing about policies - but people who vote on policy have already made up their mind long ago; he’s appealing to people who vote on personality / relatability.
is SIR Keir Starmer, or Oxford and Winchester College Alumni Rich Sunak particularly relatable? If I was in a constituency where a Lib Dem vote would count, I’d at least be considering it! I’d rather they were trying to enlist support for rejoining EEA (if not the whole EU) but perhaps that’s an issue for next time. I’d also like to see more talk about reform of politics - be it lords, federalism etc. I imagine that could become a talking point if the 2nd place in the popular vote and 2nd place in seats don’t align - perhaps then the two party system / FPTP might be relatable to people.
"This!
Don’t be lulled into a false sense of security by the headlines and predictions of Labour landslide – if everyone thinks they’re going to win regardless and doesn’t vote / spoils their paper / votes for the joke candidate, the Tories will squeak back in."
Isn't this pretty much what happened with Brexit? So many people thought "it won't happen" that they didn't bother to get out of bed, whilst on the other side every single person who wanted it to happen made the effort and voted. That couple of percent difference was all they needed. suddenly a few percent meant "The Will Of The People" ..... and the rest is history.
I’d prefer labour over Tories but if they get a huge majority I can’t see them having any drive for reform. A narrower win may show that they have more people to get onside
I don't think it works like that - more the other way round. Whatever policy you push, some people will not like it. So the more policies you have the more you'll piss people off. The way to get large support in this country has always been to appeal to the centre ground i.e. both sides, which have different ideas, so you essentially need to promise as little as possible to get the most support - which is what's happening here.
Once you're in, with a large majority, you can push your agenda more. That's why people are hoping that Labour will end up doing more than has been talked about during the campaign.
@poly - Labour have already talked about reforming the house of lords.
They're also outnumbered in the Lords, so we're in catch-22 territory as you're into a constitutional pissing contest without a written constitution.
Ultimately a reform of the second chamber is needed, my ill thought out version would be an elected senate with ten year terms using PR. Give that chamber the job of long term policies like infrastructure or healthcare. Have entry requirements for candidates with an independent vetting process so that we get people with suitable skills...
There's a load of flaws in this idea, but hopefully you get the gist of what I'm thinking
Isn’t this pretty much what happened with Brexit? So many people thought “it won’t happen” that they didn’t bother to get out of bed, whilst on the other side every single person who wanted it to happen made the effort and voted.
A mix of that and the £350m written on the side of the bus which was quite a last minute thing. It spurred all the "undecided" to go "oh alright then, if it saves the NHS..."
Meanwhile all the Remainers were fairly confident of a narrow but assured win and had no time to counter the bus nonsense.
is SIR Keir Starmer, or Oxford and Winchester College Alumni Rich Sunak particularly relatable?
Why are people obsessed with the "SIR" ? It wasn't hereditary, he got it by virtue of working his way to the top of a public organization.
Without wanting to sound like an absolute bootstrapper, working hard, being successful and getting rewarded for it should absolutely be relatable!
Yep.
I remember Farage on TV the morning after the vote. When asked how soon the 350 Millions a week would start going to the NHS he replied saying "anyone who thought the bus advert meant 350 Million a week was going to go to the NHS, was mistaken"