I find myself in a strange position this morning. Wanting to watch a Rishi speech again, it was a joyous slow motion car crash.
globe.com/scene/?id=vPPxPIZBE3Mv
Bum I don't know how to load gifs 🙂
A picture will have to do.
One thing the Tories have done is give long-term overseas residents their votes back (election act( 2022). I've just registered for a postal vote online. They've also done more to sort out NI, pensions etc. for overseas residents than any previous government. They seem to think they know how their bread's buttered, we won't know if they're right because overseas votes won't be diferentiated AFAIK.
Like MMan, I'd like to know what's being proposed for the NHS (apart from more privatisation), housing, water, minimum wage, renting, zero hours contracts, education. Yep, none of this directly impacts on me I just happen to be a champagne socialist. Nothing's too good for the working class.
The real scandal in Scotland is that kids who have schools used for polling are being swindled out of a day off.
(For the record, I lost one day only to elections, 1966. Remember the treat of a holiday.)
Remember your postal vote if needed.
When people of the left say this sort of stuff about a Labour politician
Luckily the only people saying it are centrist ideologues who demand unquestioning obedience to the glorious leader.
It's very much a thing to excuse Starmer's constant shifting to the right as 'okay', 'sensible' and pragmatic.
But it's a move to the right yeah? The thing you all screamingly hate.
The reality is he's done very little to push back against Tory plans because he is a Conservative. And there's not been a need for many of his u-turns or ridiculously daft economic logic. (Growth before spending - don't be stupid.)
You can't simultaneously hate what the Tories have done and think Starmer is offering much different in real policy.
I always find Centrists have such low expectations - they give Starmer an easy ride when they should be digging into his plans.
Starmer has to offer something pragmatic like water nationalisation for me to be even half interested.
Will see - come the manifesto.
When people of the left say this sort of stuff about a Labour politician it just says to the world that they’re wealthy enough that the result doesn’t really matter to them and they don’t really give two shits about the people for whom it could make a difference.
Not really. I am wealthy enough that the result doesn't matter to me but I also give many shits about the people for whom it could make a difference which is why I am disappointed with Starmer as he doesn't appear to be proposing anything that will make a difference. Being morally better and not such a populist culture war ****er doesn't ultimately make much difference to peoples lives.
The real scandal in Scotland is that kids who have schools used for polling are being swindled out of a day off.
Only the Protestant schools*.
* As someone who had to go to a Catholic school on polling days I'm still bitter about that 🙂
One thing the Tories have done is give long-term overseas residents their votes back (election act( 2022).
Not sure why that is a good idea? All the things you mention come with a cost and compromises which have to be carried entirely by those remaining in the UK unlike, say UK based pensioners, whose increased pensions get balanced by worse public services.
In all honesty, I hated the Labour government under Blair.
Why exactly?
I had an election just after my 18th and voted tactically. I knew that woman was a wrong 'un, but of the true extent of the horrors to come, I was of course blissfully innocent. (The current lot were also represented by an in your face NF campaign)
I just hope any Labour, Lib-Dem, Green etc candidates and MPs have got their personal security sorted with all the culture war hatred the Tories will be spewing for the next 6 weeks.
Not sure why that is a good idea? All the things you mention come with a cost and compromises which have to be carried entirely by those remaining in the UK unlike, say UK based pensioners, whose increased pensions get balanced by worse public services.
In the past I would have agreed.
However, the UK voted for Brexit which very much affects those of us living in Europe in that we are now at risk of not being able to live in Europe anymore and being forced to return to the UK because of policy decisions we had no say in.
On the one hand you have the pensioners but on the other you have a lot of younger people living abroad who have had their freedom of movement removed. Nothing has been done to help them.
but I also give many shits about the people for whom it could make a difference
Then given the system we have your decision is pretty straightforward, no? Do I think in general folks for whom it will make a difference will be better off under a Labour or Tory govt? The last 14 years tells you everything you need to know.
Wealthy enough for the result not to matter? I don't even live in the country but the result will matter. It'll influence how the UK gets on with Europe and the rest of the world. On the basis of the results in the last elections, strategy takes me to the lib-dems. I don't think Labour could ever win the seat I get to vote in and much as I'd like to vote Green the FPTP system means the vote would be lost in the noise. The Tories won with nearly 60% of the vote and an increased majority last time.
Yep, none of this directly impacts on me I just happen to be a champagne socialist. Nothing’s too good for the working class.
Enlightened self-interest is the way to go. Making the unskilled working person better off helps reduce the influence of the far-right in our political discourse.
However, the UK voted for Brexit which very much affects those of us living in Europe in that we are now at risk of not being able to live in Europe anymore and being forced to return to the UK because of policy decisions we had no say in.
I know more people who own houses in Europe that voted for Brexit than against....🤷♂️
I just hope any Labour, Lib-Dem, Green etc candidates and MPs have got their personal security sorted with all the culture war hatred the Tories will be spewing for the next 6 weeks.
There's already a load of stuff about how Labour are responsible for what's going on in Palestine, a #dontvotelabour thing on Twitter... It's going to be messy.
You can’t simultaneously hate what the Tories have done and think Starmer is offering much different in real policy.
I think Labour are much less corrupt. In recent years the Tories have just asset stripped everything. Nothing is done unless it directly benefits them or their rich mates. I'd like to believe that Labour are not riding quite the same gravy train to quite the same extent.
Not sure why that is a good idea? All the things you mention come with a cost and compromises which have to be carried entirely by those remaining in the UK unlike, say UK based pensioners, whose increased pensions get balanced by worse public services.
All I'll cost the UK as a pensioner living abroad is the proportion of a state pension I've contributed to. The country I'm in has to deal with the rest.
I'll cost the NHS nothing
No fuel payments
I won't occupy any housing
I won't have a bus pass.
I'll not need carerers or a place in a home
The best thing you can do for a country when you retire is **** off somewhere else.
I know more people who own houses in Europe that voted for Brexit than against….🤷♂️
That's according to the sample of people you know.
According to the sample of people I know (admittedly not all of them own a house in Europe but they all work there) the vote went 95% Remain, 5% Leave.
Making the unskilled working person better off helps reduce the influence of the far-right in our political discourse.
So we should have policies targeting them rather than the centrist swing voter? Rather than mostly keeping the swing voter happy and a few scraps for everyone else.
I live overseas and am registered to vote in my old ward. This thread was a timely reminder to make sure I was registered to vote postally(?) and I have used the website to do that today. Amazingly, it was easy to use.
Anyway, my old ward is a die-hard Tory one. I live in hope that people are finally getting tired of their shit there and that the Lib-Dem or Labour candidates can take the seat off them. Sadly, the last time there was change (sitting MP defected to a pro-EU party), the new Tory came in easily with a large majority. They would vote for anything with a blue rosette there, despite Cambridge itself being mostly liberal and flipping between Lib-Dem and Labour.
I am wealthy enough that the result doesn’t matter to me
You probable aren't - do you have a private ambulance service that'll pick you up if you crash your bike? Do you have private security that'll safeguard your neighbourhood? Do you only use privately maintained roads? Do you have an independent food supply that is unaffected by farming and border policies? Do you own all the land that surrounds your house so you won't be affected by differences in planning legislation? Do you have a private energy and water supply? Do you have a special climate bubble that surrounds you?
I'd suggest everyone is affected by the choice we are about to make - for some it's about living day to day, for others it's longer term but there's probably something that you'd notice.
which is why I am disappointed with Starmer as he doesn’t appear to be proposing anything that will make a difference.
You can’t simultaneously hate what the Tories have done and think Starmer is offering much different in real policy.
The Tories were corrupt, populist and overwhelmingly damaging to the UK from 2015 onwards.
Labour at the very least are promising to be none of those things,
but additionally are also planning changes to public transport:
Energy:
And a raft of other things:
including a closer alignment with our closest trading partner.
That seems like rather a lot to me....Cheaper power, cheaper transport, better environment and cheaper goods. That's a lot of difference in people's lives!
Labour at the very least are promising to be none of those things,
To be fair, I suspect the Tories are also promising to not be corrupt, populist and overwhelmingly damaging to the UK.
True, but having been notably corrupt, I don't think many people are buying what they're selling this time around.
You can’t simultaneously hate what the Tories have done and think Starmer is offering much different in real policy.
It's an interesting one. Those who hate the Tories the most appear to be the people who most support Starmer moving the Labour Party closer to the Tories.
I have little doubt that voter support for the soon-to-arrive Labour government will collapse fairly quickly.
In fact Peter Keller, formerly of YouGov, claims that Keir Starmer won't even enjoy the honeymoon period which all new governments invariably receive because there isn't that level of public appeal and goodwill towards Starmer which prime ministers taking over from unpopular predecessors can expect.
Both Tony Blair and David Cameron were reasonably popular before becoming prime ministers so the public were willing to cut them some slack, Starmer isn't. And his undoing will be the full glare of the limelight, not an issue which generally concerns opposition leaders much.
But whilst collapse in public support for Labour once in government is pretty much a given imo, I am not so certain about STW. I used to think that the tone on STW would change dramatically once Labour were in government but now I'm not sure. The level of denial that Labour has nothing to fundamentally offer appears to be so high that I am starting to doubt that even Labour being in power will change the attitude of many on here.
Peter Keller also suggests that poor performance by a Labour government could finally signal the end of the UK's basically two-party political system, with a huge increase in support for smaller parties. A fair comment imo.
Farage doing his grifting in the USA, predictably, rather than trying and failing to become an MP here, again.
@dissonance "A rising tide lifts all boats", if one ensures the unskilled are bettered everyone else should also benefit.
Peter Keller also suggests that poor performance by a Labour government could finally signal the end of the UK’s basically two-party political system, with a huge increase in support for smaller parties. A fair comment imo.
The best thing that could happen is that FPTP voting is ditched by the incoming Labour government, removing the dead hand of two-party politics from parliament would be the best legacy.
I doubt that they have the vision to make it happen though
Peter Keller also suggests that poor performance by a Labour government could finally signal the end of the UK’s basically two-party political system, with a huge increase in support for smaller parties.
Let's hope so as it is now about as bad as it has been when the only noticeable difference between the two main parties is that one is a bit less ****y than the other one.
Peter Keller also suggests that poor performance by a Labour government could finally signal the end of the UK’s basically two-party political system, with a huge increase in support for smaller parties. A fair comment imo.
peter Keller has fallen into the trap of thinking that the Great British public have enough interest or understanding of the nuances to make a choice between multiple options. Especially in a FPTP system it’s just too hard for those who don’t get excited by politics to do. Major political reform is the only way that could happen but too many vested interests in the house for that to happen.
Great British Energy. We will create a new publicly owned champion – Great British Energy, to give us real energy independence from foreign dictators. It will be owned by the British people, built by the British people and benefit the British people. It will invest in clean energy across our country- for example by making the UK a world leader in floating offshore wind.
How does this work with their scaled-back green energy plans? Privatised energy is not necessarily a bad thing - look at Octopus, for example, one of the "big six" but distinctly un-evil. So you invest in off-shore wind. Great. What about energy storage? Solar? There's just silence. It could be they're squashing Ed Miliband out of fear.
Nothing on aviation. Nothing on discouraging fossil-fuel use. Nothing on heat pumps. Nothing on rail electrification in the north.
Stick to tough fiscal rules with economic stability at their heart.
By giving tax cuts to the highest-paid public sector workers while re-introducing higher taxes on the private sector? Don't get me wrong, I don't overtly object to paying more tax, but I am unhappy that an arbitrary decision has been taken that I'm less useful to society than other people paid the same and should be punished financially for it.
This also implies that the current cuts and squeezing of public services are unlikely to change.
Will be Green Party again for me. This can either represent hypocrisy or a view that Labour is little more than David Cameron's Conservative Party. Up to you...
Then given the system we have your decision is pretty straightforward, no?
Yep, I will be voting Labour but so what. Your point was that because I am wealthy and openly critical of Starmer then I can't care about people who need the most help. That is nonsense.
That is nonsense.
Yes it is, which is why instead of that, I was suggesting that folks can conflate people like Thatcher with people like Starmer because it gives them a sense of moral superiority, that they can afford becasue for them; politics is a game to be played around dinner table with their friends, and never at the electric meter in the dark, or the CAB office with an appointment about debt.
I've just liked both those posts. Don't argue over pointless points when you agree on so much really.
Peter KellNer. If you google Peter Keller you’ll get a different story altogether.
Apologies I think it was a predictive text issue. This is the article anyway
This thread is exactly why I am dreading the next six weeks. My wife has to watch every political pundit pontificating endlessly. I think the election is important but I don't have to see every pointless conjecture thrashed over again and again. No wonder a lot of the electorate are turned off by the process
Very skeptical that people will turn to smaller parties when FPTP still exists, especially in our world of polarised politics, where if you dont vote for one of the 2 main parties you are helping the other one,
far more people simply wont vote than vote for either reform, green or the lib dems
No Rwanda flights before the election
I suspect this may be a part of the reason - not wanting to see the Rwanda policy collapse in a mess before the election
Yes it is, which is why instead of that, I was suggesting that folks can conflate people like Thatcher with people like Starmer because it gives them a sense of moral superiority
Can you remind me how many of her core policies he is undoing?
Very skeptical that people will turn to smaller parties when FPTP still exists,
I probably will - what is certain Is I will not be voting labour or tory or lib dem
It was Starmer who conflated himself with Thatcher and Reeves uses the rhetoric of austerity.
So you invest in off-shore wind. Great. What about energy storage? Solar? There’s just silence. It could be they’re squashing Ed Miliband out of fear.
It was an example. Labour's plan includes increases in energy storage, solar, hydro, and on shore wind. Not all of it is part of GBE because there's plenty of private companies chomping at the bit to scale up, and are just held back by Tory intransigence.
Nothing on aviation.
They're looking at changing APD and airspace rules to shift flights to regional airports and reduce wasteful stacking caused by congestion. Not enough on reducing air travel as a whole... far too much hope being placed in future fuels, for sure.
Nothing on discouraging fossil-fuel use.
Come again? Moving electricity generation at speed to renewables, enabling people to switch from fossil fuel transport, home heating etc. Key word there is enabling, rather than telling people what changes have to happen and leaving them to fail to make them. Guilt isn't enough, our whole national energy use needs to be changed... by government... not just be lecturing and taxing people for using what's available to them.
Nothing on heat pumps.
Decarbonisation and grid upgrade needs to come ahead of any massive consumer heat pump roll out.
Nothing on rail electrification in the north.
The long answer for you is here...
Labour’s plan include increases in energy storage, solar, hydro, and on shore wind.
cite? What energy storage? Where is the hydro to be installed?
Luckily the only people saying it are centrist ideologues who demand unquestioning obedience to the glorious leader.
As opposed to the left wing idealogues who demanded unquestioning loyalty to the previous glorious leader.
Labour faction fighting and the right wing media are very capable of seeing Labour fail to oust the Tories.
I think a whole raft of 'things aren't getting better' were behind the decision to go for the election now, and the stupid Rwanda scheme is a key one. They won't be dealing with all of the litigation, political losses and sh1t fighting of possibly getting a flight off the ground. There may be a gimic flight before the election, where they round up 3 people with no lawyers on to a flight.
Wild prediction - Labour might find a way of getting David Miliband back in a government role. Obviously not as an MP, but perhaps as Lord Miliband and Foreign secretary with all his Thunderbirds/International Rescue experience [edit - and as previously foreign secretary]? Or as some kind of high priest a-la Mandelson back in the day...David Lammy might not like the first one of course...
Where is the hydro to be installed?
IIRC that's mostly devolved, as part of the "Local Power Plan"...
Why devolved? Got to take on the Nimbies, and the grid needs it to be as distributed as possible.
That's the big challenge with renewables now... upgrading the grid paired with distributing generation widely across it... and closer to where people and industry are cited... it can't all be in or near Scotland!
This thread is exactly why I am dreading the next six weeks.
You know you don't have to read it don't you? 🙂
Anyway, stories in the news this morning that some tories are trying to cancel the election by ousting Sunak and replacing him before parliament is dissolved. Christ I really hope they give that a try. It would be a fitting end to a shitshow of a parliamentary term.
I do not see anything in there about Hydro? Again I ask where are you going to put more hydro? ~We have room for a bit more micro hydro but that is small beer.
There may be a gimic flight before the election, where they round up 3 people with no lawyers on to a flight.
Anyway, stories in the news this morning that some tories...
The death of any administration that's outstayed its welcome is always chaos, but this lot are taking that to the extreme. I'm half expecting the incoming Lab administration to report shit smeared on the walls, food thrown about the place, torn golden wallpaper...
The "tell all" books that'll come out in the next few years are going to be interesting.
Nothing on aviation.
Aviation emissions are 2.5% globally of CO2 and have increased by 65% globally since 2004 despite a 85% increase in flight traffic. That's because of modern airliners being around 16-20% more efficient. The next airliner (2035) will be 30% more efficient than the last one and that's not counting on sustainable fuels for part of that saving. SAF is predicted to be 20% of fuel for aviation by the same 2035 timeline, so we'll be seeing around 35-40% reduction in co2 per passenger km during that period which will accelerate toward 45-55% in the 2035-2055 timeframe as older aircraft are replaced and more SAF is used. Aviation decarbonisation is a tough nut to crack due to safety and technology maturity requirements and so takes time. The best thing governments can do is support the companies trying to make the difference and tax the people flying which is exactly what Labour are proposing. There's little else that can be done without damaging the economy for very little gain - aviation accounts for 4.3% of global GDP and rising and that doesn't account for mobility provided.
It's worth noting that emissions per passenger km have almost halved in the last 20y, but (global) passenger numbers have more than doubled and distances have increased. Domestic (flights originating from the UK) flight traffic in the UK is largely static and has been for almost 10 years. That means that overall emission are dropping and will drop faster as newer aircraft come on stream. Rolls, Airbus, FlyZero, etc are all trying desperately to make this happen faster, but it's a process.
I think the possibility of the Tories campaign collapsing completely is underpriced. Sunak must know he's going to lose and those around him know it too, local campaigners know it, their client press know it
More MPs stepping down, means no proper vetting of candidates to replace them, means social media not being checked and the likes of Anderson & Gullis being made to look like responsible adults!
Come again? Moving electricity generation at speed to renewables, enabling people to switch from fossil fuel transport, home heating etc. Key word there is enabling, rather than telling people what changes have to happen and leaving them to fail to make them.
But it's devolved to local authorities, of which exactly zero will be prepared to put the idea of wind turbines or pumped hydro in their vicinity. Off-shore sounds good but is cripplingly expensive when there's a perfectly solid foundation called The Ground.
Decarbonisation and grid upgrade needs to come ahead of any massive consumer heat pump roll out.
But if you don't do one there's little incentive to do the other regardless of the order. Nothing on EV charging provision or price controls.
Guilt isn’t enough, our whole national energy use needs to be changed… by government… not just be lecturing and taxing people for using what’s available to them.
But it isn't, though. Where's the policy that says that all new builds need to have generous solar panel provision and battery storage? What about something that says a new-build estate must have a segregated safe cycle route to the nearest town? What about dynamic road pricing?
There's nothing about cyclist safety. No word on rolling back the new anti-cycling legislation.
More MPs stepping down, means no proper vetting of candidates to replace them, means social media not being checked and the likes of Anderson & Gullis being made to look like responsible adults!
Labour have fallen foul of this in the past... Sheffield Hallam anyone? It's a good job the other parties have been on the case preparing candidates in good time this time... leave the Tories to dig their own hole deeper with a rushed selection. I think many a Conservative Association is going to be glad to see the back of Sunak after the election... he's stuffed them with this one. Labour and others never trusted Suank with his insinuations about an Autumn election and planned for any time from May... if the Tories did trust him.... well... he won't care... he's going to be flying over the horizon and leaving them to pick up the pieces.
My wife has to watch every political pundit pontificating endlessly.
You mean she chooses to. Good for her, better to have an interest in something which can affect your life, and however limited you can have an input, than showing no interest at all.
Governments always affect people's lives.
upgrading the grid paired with distributing generation widely across it…
Scotland ( contrary to that labour paper) has upgraded the grid significantly to allow renewables to be fed into the grid. No mention of the access charges that make it very difficult to generate in Scotland economically
large scale projects require valley systems to be flooded
There will be very few new large scale hydro projects in the next few years, if any... instead we need many small ones. Might be different story if looking at longer term.
Huh?
It's called "centrism" I believe.
Denouncing Tory policies while simultaneously demanding that labour moves closer to them.
Yeah it baffles me too.
I cannot see any large scale hydro being built again in the UK as I do not believe we have suitable sites anywhere.
There are several pumped hydro facilities being built but would tend to agree no more large scale normal hydro. I think there would still be some sites but the damage caused would likely be politically unacceptable.
Tidal would be an alternate candidate though.
Agreed on all counts.
Tidal is a 10 year not 5 year thing though... and laying down new renewable energy sources FAST will be the theme of the next parliament... so won't come into play at this election at all. Long term though, we should be using it.
It’s easy for me.
I believe in social democracy and the Welfare State.
Won’t vote for any Party that supported Brexit.
Live in Scotland.
Greens?
Got any links dissonance? Id be fascinated to see them. I haven't heard of any new pump storage projects ( not a dig - genuine interest)
I'm a pale pink wishy washy liberal ( copyright Ernie 🙂 ) I see labour as a centre right party now.
Tidal would be an alternate candidate though.
That's what I used to believe until it was pointed out to me on here all the negative effects of a tidal barrage thingy.
I can't remember what they were but iirc it was based on environmental issues such as noise pollution.
I cannot see any large scale hydro being built again in the UK as I do not believe we have suitable sites anywhere.
This might be controversial but I've always felt that Grasmere is a bit up itself, and it sits in a nice deep valley...
Look. We get it. You vote Communist.
Wow. And you even use the "we".
Unfortunately despite your apparent appeal I won't be dropping my opposition to right-wing politicians, whether they be in the Tory Party or the Labour Party.
I am however hoping for a huge Labour landslide on July 4th
What's the wow for? You vote communist. It's fair to say that any party that can gain enough support from voters to get the MPs to form a government will be well to the right of your politics. And the "we" is because I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that's failed to skip past you continually making the same point. Of course Labour has moved to the right since 2019... the alternative was to sit on the opposition benches feeling "right" for yet another term.
