You proved my point with your baseless allegation of trolling – I can disagree with people without accusing them of trolling.
But yesterday you were trolling. You might have started off 'just asking the question' but when it was answered, and your response to that challenged, you went off the deep end and then stopped taking part in the discussion. That's not disagreeing, that's trolling, and TBH most folks on any political thread can long recognise your style and posts, and can tell when you're having a pop because as you've said yourself on here on any number of occasions that's why you post on here.
So, no one stops you, you're not banned, you have a voice you get to have your say, so chill out.
Ernie is also right in that if you do not follow the consensus you get jumped on by a load of folk
I can't actually believe I'm going to say this, but you know all the other posters on a thread aren't all sitting in a room together, and then agree a course of action to all say the same thing, right?
If many individual posters pick up on what another individual posters says, then perhaps, maybe, shockingly they may all just disagree with you about a thing. I mean that is a possibility.
You do not think looking after the poor, pensioners and workers rights is socially progressive?
I meant social attitudes - things like racism, sexism, LGBTQ+ issues etc. Regarding politics, this is the dichotomy that we see in the UK. I think most people are happy to look after the needy, the old, the disabled, asylum seekers etc; the problem is that Tories have managed to persuade a lot of people that most of them are frauds, lazy, on the take etc. Which isn't true. Thats the big problem we have here.
ernielynch
Free Member
Ernie, that’s a little disingenuousNot at all, I provided the link, only 13% are “delighted”, I would say about 99% on here are. At least it would seem that way.
I don't think I could have been more even handed in my post Ernie but the fact we disagree still is perfectly ok. Hand on heart, your post stood out purely because you and the word disingenuous are not something I normally associate. That's not some back handed compliment either.
Anyway, it's all good, the sun's out and the rain has stopped. Well, here it has at least!
Well is there any point in grimep trying to engage in a more reasonable manner?
If he wants credibility then yes. Spouting off like that is getting him nowhere and inviting ridicule. We'd love to debate reasoned ideas, but you can't do much with propaganda-infused rants like that.
Water companies; not easy to resolve, and way, way more complex than the media portray. Letting them go bust, nationalisation, whatever - solves nothing but ownership status. It doesn't address the facts around large scale investment and delivery. The system of regulated monopolies is the main point of failure, but on a nationwide basis, there is no appetite from any government to suddenly take ownership of the hundreds of billions of £s of assets, and tens of billions of yearly operational costs. When compared with other more pressing issues on the Sue Gray risk register, that particular iteration of a solution is a non-starter. The only realistic options are reforms that will take time and seem imperfect to most people, but such is the face of pragmatic compromise.
If many individual posters pick up on what another individual posters says, then perhaps, maybe, shockingly they may all just disagree with you about a thing. I mean that is a possibility.
Or - and this may take some getting used to as a concept - you might not be the one who is correct.
You do not think looking after the poor, pensioners and workers rights is socially progressive?
I wondered about that too.
Not at all, I provided the link, only 13% are “delighted”.
Aren't statistics wonderful?
39% delighted or pleased (with a further 18% don't mind) against 35% disappointed or dismayed.
Also compare that to Labour's vote share of 34%.
Oh and that page also shows that people are more positive about Labour now than they were at the start of the campaign.
Anyway, it’s all good, the sun’s out and the rain has stopped. Well, here it has at least!
Gonna need evidence to support that, still miserable in Nottingham
faustus
Full Member
Water companies; not easy to resolve, and way, way more complex than the media portray.
I was just watching a panel discuss that, amongst other thing, on the Beeb.
The incredibly bad state of the prison service too, utterly depressing. At least the Tory occasionally... sort of... acknowledged it might just have been due to the Tory government.
Sort of... Very big of him! :/
Gonna need evidence to support that, still miserable in Nottingham
Costa del Kent, it's always sunny here.
(I bloody wish!)
Well is there any point in grimep trying to engage in a more reasonable manner?
No record of them ever trying to be fair.
So - are they trolling. Or are they well read on STW, know that the left leaning bent of the forum is likely to pick up and challenge 'alternative views' and therefore decides not to bother trying to have a reasonable discussion and jumps to the type of post they made. In fact if you are that convinced normal debate won't be honoured, why bothe rposting at all i other than to start an argument.
TLDR, it's trolling.
you know all the other posters on a thread aren’t all sitting in a room together, and then agree a course of action to all say the same thing, right?
You obviously don't need to do that in an echo chamber - they are politically self-cleansing.
Most people who don't agree with the STW political consensus left the political threads a long time ago. The fact that I am still prepared to challenge the consensus is fairly unusual, even Mefty who has never been anything other than reasonable has pretty much given up.
Personally I don't think political echo chambers are healthy, unchallenged people tend to develop evermore extreme views often based on questionable facts. Although I don't doubt that this suits the majority and what attracts them, so nothing is likely to change.
The fact that I am still prepared to challenge the consensus is fairly unusual
Ernie, you've said yourself that you do it for jollies, please don't try to pretend its some higher calling. If you think that this forum of any forum lets 'questionable facts' go unanswered, then you've not been paying attention. Any anyway, I disagree as to why most folks have left political threads, I think it's because they're dominated by the same people regurgitating the same arguments over and over again, and they're dull.
theotherjonv
Full Member
Well is there any point in grimep trying to engage in a more reasonable manner?No record of them ever trying to be fair.
So – are they trolling. Or are they well read on STW, know that the left leaning bent of the forum is likely to pick up and challenge ‘alternative views’ and therefore decides not to bother trying to have a reasonable discussion and jumps to the type of post they made. In fact if you are that convinced normal debate won’t be honoured, why bothe rposting at all i other than to start an argument.
TLDR, it’s trolling.
In my long rambling post yesterday I did mention grimep. Some time ago I looked at his posts, fleetingly, on other threads and from what I saw, nothing stood out. I mean to say, they are just normal STW posts.
I think he is trolling in this thread, to be clear but I think the posts really are based upon his political position. I do think, in his view, what he alludes to are the "problem with this country". What I'm badly saying is that he is trolling but when grimep does say getting rid of " wokeness" etc would make the country "better," I do think he believes that. So in his way, "he wants better for the country."
So... is the trolling just his personal way of venting (as we all do on occasion) or it is it just for the Lolz?
I'm not sure it really matters in truth in this instance but with mefty, though I fundamentally disagreed with him on many levels, I'm not sure if him no longer posting is particularly healthy for the thread.
I don't know, far too much time on my hands to think about this sort if stuff there days.
How does Milliband figure out that wrecking our north sea oil and gas industries makes us LESS dependent on "petrostates and dictators'?
The man is certifiable.
Oh well. Another generation of naive voters are about to discover the reality of loopy Labour in power.
Mad Milliband has banned all new oil and gas drilling in the north sea, wrecking the industry, increasing our reliance on imports, increasing fuel insecurity and cost. It was widely predicted as he is a fully paid up member of the climate cult.
The oil was never for domestic consumption.
We import LNG because there is insufficient gas left.
And to reduce prison overcrowding they’re going to release more prisoners. Minimum sentence likely to drop from 50% to 40% of tariff.
Are you implying they've solved the court backlog in under a week and caused the prison overcrowding? Blimey that DPP experience is paying off to Starmer.
They’ve only been in a week. The terrifying Annalise Dodds is feverishly working on her woke identity politics legislation, which we are all really looking forward to.
TBH if you're in the 0.something percent of the population it'll impact, then it's been a long time coming. I'm glad you'l finally be able to live your life how you want to.
Roll on 5 years
Indeed, just think of the mandate once Reform collapses and Labour inherits some of that vote along with the more progressive tax policies.,
"I think it’s because they’re dominated by the same people regurgitating the same arguments over and over again, and they’re dull."
Yep. Plus the rolling discussions concerning or policing the ontology of the discussion thread itself. Going from prisons and water companies to bickering.
Ernie, you’ve said yourself that you do it for jollies,
Eh? What on earth are you talking about?
What's this....... make up whatever wild allegation that you fancy?
Anyway I have made my point, you can carry on agreeing on whatever it is that you all agree about.
How does Milliband figure out that wrecking our north sea oil and gas industries makes us LESS dependent on “petrostates and dictators’?
Simple.
There isn't enough north sea gas, there's some oil, but nowhere near the quantities of gas that there used to be.
Our Gas comes from Russian pipelines and via ship from Qatar and North America.
Building renewable energy infrastructure means we would no longer need to import gas to run power stations or heat houses.
The Department for Energy Security and Net Zero has denied reports that Ed Miliband has banned the North Sea oil regulator from issuing any outstanding drilling and exploration licences, calling them “a complete fabrication”.
Earlier today, The Telegraph claimed that the new energy security and net zero minister had overruled his officials to stop the North Sea Transition Authority (NSTA) from issuing new licences, even those that were in the final round of approval with the regulator.
But Miliband’s department hit back at the claims, telling City A.M.: “This piece is a complete fabrication – it invents meetings and decisions that have not taken place.
“As previously stated, we will not issue new licences to explore new fields. We will also not revoke existing oil and gas licences and will manage existing fields for the entirety of their lifespan.
How does Milliband figure out that wrecking our north sea oil and gas industries makes us LESS dependent on “petrostates and dictators’?
Currently our electricity generation is closely linked to fossil fuel production. Reducing, or even breaking, that link by increasing renewables within the UK will stop us being at the whims of international markets where we use electricity. If we also move manufacturing and transportation away from oil, diesel and petrol use that will further isolate us from the direct effects of problems current and future in oil producing regions of the world. So it’s not just “no more new UK oil and gas fields” … that decision shouldn’t be seen in isolation. It is about transforming energy generation and use in the UK. And then there is the side effects of burning fossils on our climate… but you seem hell bent on rejecting the evidence there, so just concentrate on the social and economic positive effects of switching to renewables in the UK and not being dependent on states outside our influence for our energy supplies for ever more.
grimep
Free Member
Not aligning with your Guardian reader political echo chamber isn’t “trolling” btw.
Best contribution to the thread you've made grimep, no sarcasm. On that individual point, I agree.
Or – and this may take some getting used to as a concept – you might not be the one who is correct.
correct but anyone who says there are not " Pile ons" on here is kidding themselves.
faustus
Full Memberontology
Nice word, going to try and remember that one! <Thumbs up>
binners
Full Member
The water company bosses should be up in court and properly held to account for the shambles their blatant profiteering has caused
Yep. I'll never get my head around the huge dividend payouts, whilst running up huge debts and running the system into the ground at the same time. No pun intended.
In a better functional society that would be classed as simple criminality on an industrial scale.
The water company bosses should be up in court and properly held to account for the shambles their blatant profiteering has caused
What crime do you think has been committed? I can't think of one
Capitalism is only part of it; to date, Ofwat have been a thoroughly inept regulator.
Additionally, multiple governments have been unconcerned about utilities being owned by foreign companies - Macquarie and Thames Water being a prime example; maximise and extract the profits then sell-on when problems are becoming apparent but before they become significant.
Governmental failure to retain a 'golden share' when privatisation occurred.
It was well known at privatisation that there had been huge under-investment for decades but there was no attempt by government to ensure that investment would be prioritised way beyond off-loading future liabilities.
A textbook example of how to get it wrong.
Oh well. Another generation of naive voters are about to discover the reality of loopy Labour in power.
I quite enjoyed it last time round, despite not being a Labour voter at that point in my life.
Not aligning with your Guardian reader political echo chamber isn’t “trolling” btw.
Basking in a bit of contrarian-driven validation? Go you!
Worth noting that all dividends are, and have been, fully sanctioned by the regulator Ofwat. The fact they happen is down to the model of monopolised privatisation. They have to simultaneously hold companies to account for spending and delivery, whilst also making them investible for private equity, and thus capable of giving payback on investment. I'll make it clear I don't in any way agree with it, but that is the way it currently works.
It's not just water companies being evil and stealing money, it is heavily regulated, and these headline dividends are part of the regulatory operating conditions of the entire industry. Quite often, profits have been made on money borrowed/loaned against an asset base that increases in value. What does not happen though, is water bills customers pay going direct to bosses or investors. Regulated cash is off limits, and investment that can be recovered from customer bills is strictly controlled by Ofwat. There are huge, complex performance commitments the companies report on each year, and will be penalised/rewarded by Ofwat for failure/achievement of a whole raft of performance metrics.
What crime do you think has been committed? I can’t think of one
Literally tens of thousand of breaches of the water industry act and environmental permitting regulations.
fully sanctioned by the regulator Ofwat
Does anyone else put an extra "t" in there automatically when they read it?
Quite often, profits have been made on money borrowed/loaned against an asset base that increases in value. What does not happen though, is water bills customers pay going direct to bosses or investors.
Borrowing against the asset base... not using that money for investment... and then asking the public to pay more for investment... all within the rules no doubt... but that the money does not go "direct" from bills to bonuses and payouts is pretty much irrelevant to the end user being asked to put more money into a utility that money has been extracted from.
To be fair to Of'wat staff past and present, they often detail how limited they are by the legislation they operate under. Time to look again at that... and any new legislation should also include a clear path back to pubic ownership should failures continue.
Balls of steel indeed.
The black Labour candidate that campaigned in Clacton and how it was on the campaign trail.
New legislation should be about reform of the whole system and the way performance is achieved and managed, and the industry regulated. But there are obvious limits to clamping down on the current model as it is, due to the whole investment/return question. Public ownership, or the threat of it, achieves nothing in and of itself. The same could be said of any industry. It doesn't suddenly make businesses work perfectly and everything delivered well and effectively. I'm not against public ownership of key industries, but not for their own sake and not without an understanding of what it would take. Government and civil service would have to get bigger again, a great deal of expertise would need to be brought in to avoid the same failures under a different ownership model.
Not aligning with your Guardian reader political echo chamber isn’t “trolling” btw.
I agree.
OTOH as soon as someone accuses another of being Woke, Steve Albini's comments always come to mind
https://twitter.com/electricalWSOP/status/1665265230673321984
aaargh, I can't usually get tweets to embed except when there's a swear word in it. Not trying to avoid the swear filter, can't see how to embed without.
[edit - I remembered as x.com it won't embed but i think still works as a link, as twitter it embeds. I have changed to x and if the link doesn't work, but you want to see what Mr Albini said about the antiwoke and which i'll probably get banned for now, change x for twitter. is that all clear]
[Also, FAOD - I apologise for the swear word, i agree totally with the sentiment]
Public ownership, or the threat of it, achieves nothing in and of itself.
Agree. But the "threat" of removing the assets (and the government and/or another body taking on the running and risk) has to be in place... otherwise... the owners of the utility can just shrug... they're not going to be shut down after all... the clean water must keep running and the sewage must be handled (well, perhaps not the last one looking at the current situation)... the utility can't be allowed to fail, therefore there must be a clear process, visible to all parties, as to what will happen if the business falls short. There needs to be a process laid out where the company and the utility can be separated.
If I'm vaguely left wing and liberal, but don't read The Guardian (and never have), can I still be part of the echo chamber?
Finding the political spectrum discussion interesting TBH. Probably deserves its own thread. Unless I'm an outlier, suspect that opinions supported/disagreed with here (and elsewhere online) aren't always necessarily in line with people's actual feelings.
In my 'ideal' world, I'd be chasing a very liberal, very socialist, bordering on anarchistic (in it's actual meaning) society. I recognise that's not something that can happen in the real world currently, so here my pragmatic politics come out as a bit left of centre and socially liberal.
Not aligning with your Guardian reader political echo chamber isn’t “trolling” btw.
It's not that you are disagreeing with the majority - the problem is how you are presenting it.
Literally tens of thousand of breaches of the water industry act and environmental permitting regulations.
Ah - I meant criminal in relation to the assett stripping / exporting of money that seemed to be Binners point
A quick point... The Guardian, BBC, Sky etc get posted/cited more in these threads partly because they're not behind a paywall. If a story appears in lots/all the usual places, you're most likely to post a link to the telling that everyone can read and comment on rather than something that bounces people back after a headline and a teaser paragraph... it's almost bad manners not to really. Whenever I paste an FT or Times link, I feel I should include an apology.
Yep. I’ll never get my head around the huge dividend payouts, whilst running up huge debts and running the system into the ground at the same time. No pun intended.
I think .......
If you have a company worth £1,000,000,
The bank might lend you £500,000 based on that valuation.
You need to keep that £1million valuation though to keep that loan rolling over every time it's due to be repaid. Even if the company isn't doing so well.
So you pay a dividend, which props your share price up, because investors just care about the return on the investment.
spawnofyorkshire
Full Member
According to popbitch Kier Starmer doesn’t like avocados. Does this put to bed whether he’s working class or not now? ?
No. Only if he's partial to Heinz Ravioli cold, from a tin.
Well, that's not so much working class as Poopscoop class**.
Which is much betterer.
** Could make a good name for a new class of Royal Navy destroyer actually.
Could make a good name for a new class of Royal Navy destroyer actually
Environment agency coastal patrol surely?
Environment agency coastal patrol surely?
Lol, wish I'd thought of that!
we need to know where he shops to be sure.
Seeing as we are still sometimes banging on about Starmer - something I picked up today. He is in favour of looking at changes in the law around end of life and assisted dying and a free vote in parliament on it.
Im vaguely keeping track and so far its more thumbs up than down for me.
Here's some news to cheer up the climate deniers https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/2024/jul/11/cumbria-coalmine-was-unlawfully-approved-government-says
Reform starting to argue among themselves already
It seems someone just realised he’s not in a political party but working for a private limited company and he’s not on the board
https://Twitter.com/benhabib6/status/1811347815332733337?s=46&t=1lK7Dw1b6RqGJyvufO-trQ
Reform starting to argue among themselves already
Good move on their part. Tice left them open to being accused of being members of the elite whereas Yusuf is a man of the people as his concierge app shows.
Read that article and realised my mother-in-law probably (she won't admit to it but also won't discuss who she did vote for) helped vote in one of the five reform MPs. I now have to try and be civil to an enabler of racism...
The emergent Tory leadership campaign summed up beautifully by Jay Rayner
https://Twitter.com/jayrayner1/status/1811079243482173847?s=46&t=1lK7Dw1b6RqGJyvufO-trQ
So we now have two parties where hypocritical children of immigrants
It is ironic one of the best arguments against immigration is the arsehole kids of immigrants who want to block immigration.
Its only a miniscule fraction (which some might argue includes me) but I do think they havent used their best argument of "yes my parents were a net positive to the UK but then what about me?"
It was inevitable I suppose.;)
‘More Fawlty Towers than Downton Abbey’: Jacob Rees-Mogg’s bid to become a reality TV star
Reform starting to argue among themselves already
Lee Anderson is going to be busy as chief whip then. Don't they have to understand every piece of legislation coming through the house so they can advise the party on voting? Can't imagine he has a big team either.
‘More Fawlty Towers than Downton Abbey’: Jacob Rees-Mogg’s bid to become a reality TV star
Don't mention Ze Germans. Or Ze French. Or Da Italians, Spanish, Poles, Czechs, Dutch etc...
Reform didn't take long to get into their 'cleansing' either, did they?
Not strictly for this thread, but I hear Biden has referred to Kamala Harris as 'Vice President Trump' and introduced Zelensky as 'President Putin'.
If the Democrats don't get their act together soon and ditch Biden, that's Ukraine gone.
It is staggering to think about what sort of country would put those two up against each other in a presidential race rather in a than a care home. It really is beyond belief.
The very fact those questions are being asked says to me it's time to step down - both of them are older than my dad, as much I love him I wouldn't trust him to run a country
Oh well. Another generation of naive voters are about to discover the reality of loopy Labour in power.
Hmm would the country had actually survived another 5 years of the Tories thou 🙂
It is staggering to think about what sort of country would put those two up against each other in a presidential race rather in a than a care home. It really is beyond belief.
We have to always remember that these two shouldn't be lumped together as 'the same thing'. One of them is clearly old and frail, and has some bother with words and names, but has delivered four years of relatively sensible government to the US.
The other is old and frail, a convicted felon and rapist, twice impeached, who has colluded with America's enemies, undermined its allies, tried to subvert the outcome of a democratic election, and is currently threatening authoritarian rule.
The only reason Biden is seeking re-election is to stop Trump and protect America. The only reason Trump is standing is to enrich himself and stay out of prison.
You could certainly argue that both are unsuitable for office, but only one of them is a clear danger to the rule of law and the constitution.
The whole thing is a shitshow, and at this point, I don't think the democrats can field a winning candidate.
Its not centre left. Its centre right establishment. Its just a load of folk who are centre right claim to be centre left. I find the right wing establishment comfy middle class bias very obvious.
Not been on here for a couple of days so rewound a bit. Noticed the above. I know we aren't allowed personal insults but I find this a pretty insulting, condescending pile of shite from the usual suspect.
The grown-ups are back in the room apparently...
You did check the date that video was posted?
Plus, grown up doesn't have to mean po-faced and dour...
Do not feed the troll.
