Jonv - fine words - where are the concrete commitments? all that is is fine words without substance
Anyway - I shall bow out as above
Just one4 more
I’ve worked in a lot of European countries, particularly Germany, and I assure you that is simply not true.
Pensions, benefits and employment rights all much higher than the UK
...And this is why my friends, it's a bloody miracle Labour managed to get a majority this time and why they are the natural party of opposition ordinarily. 😉
So does that make germany left or right?
Jonv – fine words – where are the concrete commitments? all that is is fine words without substance
FFS, we're 5 days in.
But, FWIW
by implementing ‘Labour’s Plan to Make Work Pay: Delivering a New Deal for Working People’ in full – introducing legislation within 100 days.
OFC you'll say we have to see what the legislation is, but also OFC in the real world you write a manifesto 'in terms' and then when elected decide what you can implement. And with that majority - they can introduce pretty much what they want with high confidence of getting it through.
Kick off!
A row has broken out between potential Tory leadership rivals Suella Braverman and Kemi Badenoch after Mrs Badenoch accused the former home secretary of having a "very public" nervous breakdown.
I’m a lib dem who voted labour, and I think we should increase spending on defence…
So what the does that make me?
Since that also describes me, obviously you must be intelligent and very sensible.
The right have normalised economic thinking for the Labour. Centrists have adopted this without any scrutiny.
It's totally clear from everything Reeves has said thus far.
In other words all pragmatic and leftist options are off the table in favour of shitty market solutions to huge problems caused by shitty market solutions.
We will see anyway. Currently I think the Labour economic programme is destined to fail / damp squib unless someone turns some proper taps on for something of a well targeted magnitude.
Since that also describes me
Can I thank you both. And I’m glad the LibDem seat count ended up so high. I hope that compensates in some way for you having to vote tactically. And I also hope that the Labour government remain cognisant of the votes you (and Green supporters) lent them to get them over the line.
Love it!
Ms Braverman has faced a furious backlash since she launched an extraordinary attack on the LGBT+ community during a speech in Washington, in which she described government buildings flying rainbow flags as “occupied territory”.
She added: “Basic truths about our party are not easy to hear. But I’ll keep telling them on behalf of the common sense, patriotic, conservative majority.”
She's gone full crazy!
“occupied territory”
Even by her standards, wow.
I suspect she might be right wing after all.
Even by her standards, wow.
I suspect she might be right wing after all.
I wonder what the leader of the UK conservative party has to say about this? Technically it's Rishi Sunak, still, I think?
Okay so they fight to stop the far-right making further advances in elections, including in the next general election, has started.
Unite against fascist Tommy Robinson in London
https://standuptoracism.org.uk/sat-27-july-protest-unite-against-fascist-tommy-robinson-london/
The threat posed is heightened by a toxic climate of racism, in the wake of the breakthrough of Nigel Farage and his racist Reform UK party in the general election, which now boasts five MPs. Fascist Robinson endorsed Farage, and hard right Tory Suella Braverman, and called on his supporters to vote Reform UK.
Internationally fascists and the far right have made frightening gains in the European elections, taking some 30 percent in France, Italy and Austria. While anti racists and anti fascists dominated the streets in the week before the French election, and are right to celebrate the fascist Le Pen and her RN party’s failure to win the election, we must continue to sound the alarm at the horror fascists and the far right in the ascendancy in France, where the fascist RN went from 89 seats to 143, and across Europe. Trump returning to the White House in November is a real prospect.
As the above article points out Yaxley-Lennon has to keep constantly rebranding himself because anti-fascists relentlessly expose him and his supporters as thugs. He presumably believes that Nigel Farage's Parliamentary breakthrough will give him mainstream credibility. Simply ignoring Yaxley-Lennon is not an option.
Fascism needs three vital things to thrive..... economic instability, a section of society to scapegoat, and for good people to ignore them.
Braverman - does she actually believe this baloney? Or knowingly grifting? Or lost her marbles?
Takes me back does that Ernie
*Wipes nostalgic tear away*
I almost got expelled for putting these up around my school
tjagain
Full Member
Braverman – does she actually believe this baloney? Or knowingly grifting? Or lost her marbles?
Personally I dont think she does but she knows others do, which makes her even worse in a way.
It's all in the pursuit of influence and power imo but I suppose we'll never know what the hell is going on in that head of hers. Nothing good that's for sure.
I would agree. Liberal which as you say is not left wing.
Nor right wing, it's the opposite of authoritarian. Can I take it from your negative influence you're more in favour of
Also stick this in your right wing (might be a handy splint as your left one seems rather over developed)
https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2?ec=-8.0&soc=-7.74
:heart:
Im right in the bottom left corner which shows how daft that is being as most of my pals who are political are way to the left of me. Ernie would be on the next page if not the one after 🙂
It's a general rule of thumb, I have no doubt there are people well to the left of me and more libertarian. Interesting though, from what you say you sound like you should be trending more to the upper left. (my previous post should have read "Can I take it from your negative inference you’re more in favour of authoritarianism" but I've been enjoying €0.98 Leffe)
As an ex water industry civil engineer I support that aim.
As a nuclear worker (sorry TJ, engineer) I second that.
Also stick this in your right wing (might be a handy splint as your left one seems rather over developed)
I posted this link earlier What political alignment is the British Public? About 50% are "centre, slightly left, slightly right", 32% left of centre, 24% right of centre.
Most of us live within the realms of possibility.
Which in this realm means we live in a significant upgrade.
Other, and much worse, realms remain an ongoing option. But not for now.
Can I thank you both. And I’m glad the LibDem seat count ended up so high. I hope that compensates in some way for you having to vote tactically.
I would have voted Labour normally (had a great Labour MP when I was in Hammersmith), but here Lib Dem was the way to go so that's what I did and now we have a Lib Dem MP! Hope that helps.
Overall though, this discussion puts me in mind of someone who has been starved for 14 years, and now that someone has turned up with some decent looking food, is complaining because they haven't provided the correct sort of soup spoon. Why can't we just enjoy that things are better without having to instantly try and tear it down?
People claim to be more left wing than they are and will hear nothing different – same as everyone is an above average driver and a good dog owner
im not sure that’s as good a comparison as you think. People who are quite left leaning certainly seem to be in some sort of race to out-left each other but people on the right consider it a massive insult to describe people as left wing, a sign of weakness.
The idea that two words from the French Revolution which were intended to divide views into a pair of binary states are today used to describe a spectrum of complex modern politics is farcical; the idea that one should be virtuous and the other despised is just tribal nonsense.
I'm very left wing according to a couple of friends & acquittances, these folk believe in stuff like the "small state", that there's too many of "them" here and posted up Reform supporting material during the election - so am I really left wing?
and I think we should increase spending on defence…
Just in general or on specific things?
Setting arbitrary percentages of budget to spend on something will just create waste and misspend plus mean money isn't available for other areas that may actually be more important.
In fact if we wanted to increase defence spending we could just allocate costs that other countries allocate to "defence", that we currently don't, like veterans 'healthcare'.
Sorry to bring facts into a 'belief' but nearly half the USA's 'defence' spending is veterans based - looks to me like the UK is already spending enough.
I’m very left wing according to a couple of friends & acquittances, these folk believe in stuff like the “small state”, that there’s too many of “them” here and posted up Reform supporting material during the election – so am I really left wing?
I don't know. You are not as right wing as them but that doesn't mean you are left wing. What stuff do you believe in?
The idea that two words from the French Revolution which were intended to divide views into a pair of binary states are today used to describe a spectrum of complex modern politics is farcical; the idea that one should be virtuous and the other despised is just tribal nonsense.
Yes it is over simplified but it gives you a starting point on the larger intentions of a party or fundamental beliefs of a person. Whether you are tribal about it is up to you.
This article by YouGov shows the 'right-wing things' that left-wing people believe in and vice versa. To further complicate the picture, studies have shown that if Labour (left wing govts) do things now that some right wingers think are OK or good, then they're more likely to believe that they are 'stolen' right wing policies and it reinforces their belief that right wing policies are the correct ones, and vice versa.
As a rule, everyone believes they are closer to the centre than they are, and others are further to the extremes.
This is interesting
If Reform hadnt won and based on polling asking who people would have voted for if Reform werent standing, and assumes 25% of Reforms wouldnt have voted,
https://twitter.com/liveraldemocrat/status/1810883861275914737
polling from moreincommon after the GE
It seems that being left wing on this thread is like the wheel size wars from a few years ago - pick your size and then be a dick about it
I picked full 29er, I wonder if that has any correlation with me being a large state, socially liberal, left leaning centrist?
I saw that kimbers but the way they split the refuk voters didn’t really look realistic to me regardless of what the survey said. Only about a third moving to Tory, really?
I'm still on a 26" wheel Mk1 Soul. I fear I'm the cycling equivalent of Rees-Mogg.
I don’t know. You are not as right wing as them but that doesn’t mean you are left wing. What stuff do you believe in?
Facts.
I’m still on a 26″ wheel Mk1 Soul. I fear I’m the cycling equivalent of Rees-Mogg.
Why, are you also making a reality tv show about your family?
I’m still on a 26″ wheel Mk1 Soul. I fear I’m the cycling equivalent of Rees-Mogg.
that would be a penny farthing.
I saw that kimbers but the way they split the refuk voters didn’t really look realistic to me regardless of what the survey said. Only about a third moving to Tory, really?
Thats been pretty consistent for a while now, yougov were polling on it last year and said only about 1/3rd of Reform voters were winnable for the Toires
more recently they took a deep dive into it
https://twitter.com/malcolm_reavell/status/1811322338861879337
As expected the NWF is phoney financial vehicle to shift private money in and out with the losses if any taken by government.
It's apparently so easy to create 3bn for Ukraine every year but not so for public investment in the UK.
A National Wealth Fund is completely unnecessary. There is a system already in place for government spending.
Labour are as expected lying about the way things are funded.
This will simply end with poor outcomes.
that would be a penny farthing.
Or a hobby horse
Why, are you also making a reality tv show about your family?
(◔_◔)
Unless Harry Enfield and Paul Whitehouse are writing it, I'm out.
Facts
I was asking about political beliefs! A right wing person can also believe in facts, but you are implying your friends don't I guess. They sound like ****s but then we knew that as soon as you mentioned Reform.
I saw that kimbers but the way they split the refuk voters didn’t really look realistic to me regardless of what the survey said. Only about a third moving to Tory, really?
It's sliding doors really, who knows what would have occurred as if Farage/Reform hadn't popped up then maybe the Tories wouldn't have gone further to the right, or other folk just wouldn't have bothered voting at all etc.
The Labour disaster starts. Mad Milliband has banned all new oil and gas drilling in the north sea, wrecking the industry, increasing our reliance on imports, increasing fuel insecurity and cost. It was widely predicted as he is a fully paid up member of the climate cult.
And to reduce prison overcrowding they're going to release more prisoners. Minimum sentence likely to drop from 50% to 40% of tariff.
They've only been in a week. The terrifying Annalise Dodds is feverishly working on her woke identity politics legislation, which we are all really looking forward to.
Roll on 5 years
a fully paid up member of the climate cult.
:Him and scientists eh?
And to reduce prison overcrowding they’re going to release more prisoners. Minimum sentence likely to drop from 50% to 40% of tariff.
Buying about 18 months on climbing prisoner numbers. Not really long enough to build more prisons, possibly long enough to come up with something more productive to do with them.
The terrifying Annalise Dodds is feverishly working on her woke
Woke ? ? terrifying ? ??
Sorry I know this is unimaginative trolling but it really did make me smile...
.
Mad Milliband has banned all new oil and gas drilling in the north sea, wrecking the industry
I feel like I'm wasting my time here, but the industry itself already knows its time is up.
It was widely predicted as he is a fully paid up member of the climate cult.
It was widely predicted because that's what the've been saying they'd do for years now... ...and we the people support it.
And to reduce prison overcrowding they’re going to release more prisoners.
Yup, awful, isn't it. Now... why isn't there enough prison space...?
The terrifying Annalise Dodds is feverishly working on her woke identity politics legislation, which we are all really looking forward to.
You'll have to explain what you mean there I'm afraid... what's the legislation you're describing as "woke" and why does it affect you? Why are you scared? Would a hug help?
And to reduce prison overcrowding they’re going to release more prisoners. Minimum sentence likely to drop from 50% to 40% of tariff.
You mean they have made public a policy the previous government planned to introduce quietly, whilst being opposed by the opposition? The same opposition who have now seen how bad things really are, and have to agree that there aren't any better options. Politics is compromise.
I know being exposed to views different to your own is healthy, but what on earth is that all about @grimep ?!?
I think the problem is that grimep knows that he won't be allowed to make his point in a more restraint and reasonable manner so he goes all out when he expresses his opposition to a political position
Yesterday on thread I asked if people had noticed that there are only two nonwhite faces in the new Cabinet, I said that I hadn't until this black guy pointed it out to me.
Even I didn't expect the reaction because I had dared to question a decision made by Keir Starmer, although more predictably I ended being called a troll, which is the standard response to anyone challenging this echo chamber in any way.
And to reduce prison overcrowding they’re going to release more prisoners. Minimum sentence likely to drop from 50% to 40% of tariff.
Here's someone who I reckon probably knows more about the issue than you do.
Yup, awful, isn’t it. Now… why isn’t there enough prison space…?
I know the answer to this one. 14 years of punitive tory criminal justice policies resulting in a huge increase in prisoners combined with not building more jails. We jail more folk for less nasty things than most european couuntries.
Prison poluations consist of the mad the bad and the sad. Only the bad should be in there
🙁
I wonder how many people are in prison because of austerity cuts to mental health and social care departments?
Anyone got a chart of budget cuts versus increase in prison population?
I know being exposed to views different to your own is healthy, but what on YOUR FLAT earth is that all about @grimep ?!?
FTFY
Its the political centre of the UK is much further right than in most of europe
Well this is a bit complex. For a start, there are many different ways in which you can be 'left' or 'right' and you can have a different alignment on different issues - see the authoritarianism/fiscal policy map linked earlier, only there are more than two dimensions.
We in the UK are overall more socially progressive than most of Europe, in my opinion, but there is a gap between that and how we vote, generally. The Tories often exploit that to reduce the state - but most people would love there to be more government spending on the things that are important to them. They just don't (or aren't equipped) put two and two together, and this is what they can take advantage of.
We had a right wing prime minister pushing through gay marriage. I can't imagine many European right wing leaders doing that.
Now that I've stopped laughing at grimep's ridiculous post, how about some facts regarding UK oil and gas production.
Most of the oil produced in the UK is sold on International markets so stopping any new licences will do nothing to change oil security in the UK - nor will it have any impact on pricing. As an aside, the UK does not have refining capacity for most of it's North Sea production.
As for gas, it's a little different in that production enters the UK network but, thanks to interconnecters, gas can be imported/exported as required.
Producers have been reducing their reliance on fossil fuels by expanding into the green energy sector for many years.
In summary, the claims that a ban on new North Sea licences will...wreck the industry, increase reliance on imports, increase prices, increase fuel insecurity are demonstrably false.
As always, the 4Fs apply here - First Find the F'in Facts.
We in the UK are overall more socially progressive than most of Europe,
Check out pensioins, benefits and emplyment rights. Also many european states had gay marriage year or decades before we did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Europe
Folk in the UK like to think they are but really we are not - its just stuff we are still fighting for has been the norm in many european countries for ages and because there is no discussion on it becaujse its just an accepted part of the status quo we do not realise they have it.
Check out pensioins, benefits and emplyment rights.
I said socially progressive.
Also many european states had gay marriage year or decades before we did.
Netherlands was the first in Europe in 2001, there were 6 others before the UK. But my point is that it was a right-wing premier that pushed it through.
Only because the right-wing didn't have a majority of seats. The coalition meant the LibDems (esp Featherstone) could put forward a policy, which Labour then overwhelmingly supported, and the majority of Conservatives and those from the minor right-wing parties voted against.
there were 6 others before the UK.
15 if I can still count. I just a link to the numbers
I think the problem is that grimep knows that he won’t be allowed to make his point in a more restraint and reasonable manner so he goes all out when he expresses his opposition to a political position
Or, you know, they could just be trolling. The clue is that they make comments which are clearly going to get a reaction but then NEVER come back to any of the discussion they have just triggered.
Pretty much the definition of trolling and something I would never accuse you of.
If they want to actually discuss what they have posted then maybe join in with the discussion?
I ended being called a troll,
Because you were trolling. You get the same fair shout on here like everyone else, and everyone else is free to come to a conclusion about a post made by any poster. I doubt anyone - you included, lost any sleep over it.
So it looks like the first things that are (somewhat predictably) about to collapse are the prison system and the water companies
Both have been scandalously badly managed for the last 15 years and its going to be intersting to see how the government deals with these absolute shitshows that have landed in its lap.
Theres just been a spokesman for the water industry on Radio 4 trying to play the victim card as if they're being hard dome by that the government isn't going to just let them carry on like the last lot did
Water companies? ~allow them to increase bills when they should let them go bust on paper then buy them back for £1
Well is there any point in grimep trying to engage in a more reasonable manner? I try my best and unless I wholeheartedly agree with the consensus it gets me nowhere.
99% of punters on here might well be "delighted" with a Labour majority government but according to YouGov only 13% of the British public are.
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49996-how-have-britons-reacted-to-labours-election-victory
Theres just been a spokesman for the water industry on Radio 4 trying to play the victim card as if they’re being hard dome by that the government isn’t going to just let them carry on like the last lot did
I had to turn him off. Not often I try to put my foot through the radio whilst driving.
Because you were trolling.
FFS grow up and stop accusing anyone with a different opinion of trolling.
Do you think the 87% of Brits who are saying that they aren't delighted with a Labour majority are all "trolling"?
It's that sort of attitude which stops people freely expressing their opinions on STW political threads. And no doubt the purpose of throwing around the "trolling" allegation.
For the record I am delighted with a Labour majority.
I try my best and unless I wholeheartedly agree with the consensus it gets me nowhere.
Oh pauvre de toi. Honestly you just get the same voice that every single other poster on the forum gets, playing the hard done by victim of some imagined echo chamber or herd is frankly embarrassing. You are by far the biggest of big hitters on every single political thread, you voice is one of the loudest, if not the loudest. If you're getting nowhere, maybe, perhaps, just possibly...its you.
^^ Ernie, that's a little disingenuous, if factually true regarding "delighted" but the context is important here.
Labour’s election victory last week is no exception. Four in ten Britons (39%) feel positively about Starmer winning an overall majority, including 13% being ‘delighted’, but this is balanced by 35% being ‘disappointed’ or even ‘dismayed’ about the outcome.
I don't think you have every trolled by the way, not once but the above can lead people to think you are unnecessarily bleak in your assessments on occasion.
For many of us a change of government is the only good political story for over a decade. Let's give them a little more time to see how they do is all.
You misunderstood Nick, I get nowhere in trying to engage in reasonable and restraint political debate, is what I am talking about.
You proved my point with your baseless allegation of trolling - I can disagree with people without accusing them of trolling.
Ernie, that’s a little disingenuous
Not at all, I provided the link, only 13% are "delighted", I would say about 99% on here are. At least it would seem that way.
And I am delighted btw, it's more than just feeling positive which I don't think fairly reflects what has happened.
I agree with Ernie on this. He ( Ernie) is not generally trolling. He has a very different point of view to many on here but his point is almost always well backed up. I like his analysis - I dispute many of his conclusions however it almost always a valid point of view
Ernie is also right in that if you do not follow the consensus you get jumped on by a load of folk
