They want to instil pride in the youth? How about having a functioning health service, education , affordable housing? Things to make one feel proud about, rather than 12 months square bashing.
The last people to have done national service (and who you assume would be thise voting for its return) would now be about 75.
Mind you, given the limited work abroad options nowadays it might be quite a popular way for young folk to get to see a bit of the world [my Dad of 91 was posted to the middle east and says it was the best thing he ever did]
I love the idea of banning smartphones, St Albans are talking about doing it locally.
but it’s the most un-conservative policy I’ve heard, that party really is in a bizarre death spiral.
The only demographic in favour of National Service are the over 65’s
From a YouGov poll in Sept '23. 64% overall oppose it, but a small majority amongst the over 65s support
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1794481011574591682
As said its just a batshit policy aimed at older demographics to stop their slide towards Reform
My dad joined up to avoid NS. He got better pay, conditions, treatment and opportunities, all for committing to 3 years instead of 1. He ultimately did 37 years, first in the REME as a Radar Tech before going to OTC and earning a commission into the Royal Signals and finally transferring to the Intelligence Corps. He always thought NS now would be a terrible idea.
My dad's a big fan of National Service - gave a bright lad who was too poor to stay on at school the chance to get away from a dead end factory job, travel the world for 22 years and get the skills and training to have a successful career after he came out.
The fact that he was very much an exception to the rule rather passes him by. The fact that the Forces are also opposed to the idea is also a minor issue.
We are about 10 years too late to ban smart phones, and banning them just shifts responsibility from the parents who should be overseeing what their kids do with them. Though there was a delicious irony at seeing a patent interviewed yesterday saying "How would we keep in touch with our kids when they are out without them?" How the **** did your parents keep in touch with you without them? And more importantly, did it even matter?
And maybe if you took the money for this shitty National Service scheme and invested it in family support, youth services, community projects, groups like Scouting and Guiding, sports clubs etc etc, maybe kids would have more structure, self respect, social responsibility.
Crazy talk.
The last people to have done national service (and who you assume would be thise voting for its return) would now be about 75.
bit older- my Dad would have been 81 now and NS was cancelled by a few years when he was old enough.
My dad’s a big fan of National Service – gave a bright lad who was too poor to stay on at school the chance to get away from a dead end factory job
Nothing stopping him signing up as a regular. That’s what my Dad’s brother did- him and 3 pals signed up a 16 as there wasn’t much options in the valleys other than down the pit. He had to get his papers signed by my Granddad (who’d been out drinking) as my Nan was against it (she lost 3 uncles in WWI).
The mobile phones thing is another no starter and hanging onto the past. They are totally integrated into society at all levels. What would make sense is teaching kids to use them responsibly. Banning them in schools is a retrograde step. They should be used where appropriate to teach critical search skills and phone use etiquette.
They will be proposing to send convicts to Australia next, oh.........
Edit £2.5bn for the NS crackpot scheme. How many collapsing schools would that rebuild, I think spending it directly on the education sector would be much more productive, but then it's a knee jerk unfunded policy spasm so really not worth worrying about.
Is there any policy content left to pinch? I remember when that book was satire...
@ernielynch they're not fighting this election, they're just setting up for 2029.
Is Alan Partridge writing the Tory policies now? Might as well be. Monkey Tennis anyone?
I reckon they have just shot down their 2029 chances with this latest nonsense.
There's a million volunteer youth that will need supervisors. Those supervisors will need training to manage a youthful workforce who won't accept the crap from supervisors the older population tolerate.
I can't see any problems forthcoming,can anyone else? </sarcasm off>
sure it’ll get a load of support from the boomers who harp on about WW2 even though they were likely not born then.
That's bollocks. We know directly from our dads how shit being shot at is.
Let's hope so. 2034 as well with a bit of luck.
Farage on Sky this morning being a blatant racist POS.
No shame in him, no self awareness just lightning a fire and running off to the US to rabble rouse.
Can't face the electorate just giving up a certain section of the population another stick to beat people who don't look like you.
Service brings citizenship! Do you want to know more?someone’s been watching Starship Troopers after a Friday night coke and champers binge…
Would this apply if I travelled to the UK in a small boat and then claimed it was initiative-led training for National Service in the SBS and I could then become a citizen? Or do I still get sent to Rwanda?
Couple of questions:
1. How does national service in other countries work where it is successful?
2. What would need to be done for it to work in the UK?
In Norway the reason it works is because they only have capacity for about 17% of eligible young people. In Sweden it's even less than that.
That means it is seen as something to aspire to and work towards and it means they can be very selective. Looks good on the CV at the end of the day, and some folk decide they quite enjoy it and stick with it as a career.
https://www.securityoutlines.cz/rethinking-conscription-the-scandinavian-model/
I think it might actually work quite well from a certain point of view in the UK. I suspect it would become a goal of a lot of ambitious middle class parents to get their children conscripted. I suspect Daily Mail readers might be a bit less keen on sending their kids to invade various countries if it was their kids who were going to be killed and maimed.
But yes, this is without a doubt not what the Tories/Sunak were thinking about when it was announced. If he was thinking about anything at all.
My dad’s a big fan of National Service – gave a bright lad who was too poor to stay on at school the chance to get away from a dead end factory job, travel the world for 22 years and get the skills and training to have a successful career after he came out.
22 years isn't national service!
Joining the army famously turned Norman Wisdom's life round, I am sure that there are plenty of similar examples.
Hopefully they'll bring back Dad's Army as an alternative to walking football.
If it's ain't half hot mum I'm in
An uncharacteristically self-aware comment from Farage:
Nigel Farage, the honorary president of Reform UK, said the proposal for mandatory national service was a “joke” and designed to appeal to his party’s voters.
Damage limitation.
Home secretary says teenagers will not face criminal sanction
So it turns out that compulsory national service will in fact, for all intents and purposes, be voluntary.
They have 6 weeks to turn round polls which have been dire for 2 years and they want to spend that time talking nonsense.
This is the first Tory policy announcement of the general election campaign FFS.
Hopefully they’ll bring back Dad’s Army as an alternative to walking football.
I should like to volunteer for for Dad's Army!
This is the first Tory policy announcement of the general election campaign FFS.
If this is their opening gambit, just imagine the crap they’re going to be tossing off in 5 weeks time. I’m sure these 5 weeks are going to seem like an eternity for all of us
I think Armando should revive Malcolm Tucker for the duration of the campaign to give a running commentary on Rishi’s activity
”So which * thought it was a good idea to stand outside the Titanic centre … THE *ING TITANIC CENTRE in a *ing life jacket? Jesus, the headlines virtually wrote them-*ing-selves!!!
And this morning you’re telling the voters of leafy suburbs that you don’t want their kids doing their *ing A levels! Oh no, instead you’re going to give them a gun and pack them off to *ing Afghanistan!!! Are you totally ****ing mental!!!
But yes, this is without a doubt not what the Tories/Sunak were thinking about when it was announced. If he was thinking about anything at all.
He was probably thinking there's got to be a few Tory donors, ministers, friends etc who could suddenly start a military uniform business. Maybe repurpose some of their vast experience from running medical scrubs businesses during Covid.
And obviously it'll need some sort of admin body to be given millions of pounds a year to run it all. Matt Hancock's pub landlord could probably do that on the side.
It's all about the grift. Follow the money trail, there'll be a Tory or 3 with very deep pockets at the end of it all receiving our taxes and still failing to actually deliver anything.
It’s all about the grift. Follow the money trail,
This is usually the right answer, but here it's wrong. There is no money. There is no costing. There is no plan. There is no intention to do any of this stuff. The announcement was the beginning, middle and end of the policy. It's over. On this thread we have spent more time discussing the proposal than was ever spent developing it. They've already moved on to pet ASBOs.
I would, however, like to propose that 18 year old Brits and asylum seekers are paired up and sent to Rwanda. Whoever can get back to the UK first gets to stay. They're allowed to speak to Bear Grylls for 10 minutes a day by WhatsApp. If they can answer an increasingly difficult series of questions about Life In The UK, they can skip a country - say they get to go from Togo to Ceuta directly instead of having to do Libya. also, they can get sponsors to put their logo on the front of their shirts, and the money can be used to pay their debt to people smugglers. The top 3 finishers can nominate a member of their family for an urgent medical operation. Simon Cowell can sell the TV rights to raise money for HM Treasury.
There is no money. There is no costing. There is no plan. There is no intention to do any of this stuff.
It appears that not for the first time, I am completely wrong. Or at least 75% wrong: I still think the last sentence is correct.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/leaked-tory-briefing-note-doesnt-32894713
0898 Hear me Mone
There is no opportunity cost with government spending. Just whatever they want to do.
The magic show of lack of money is just to turn voters inside out.
Of course with Tories there's always the cash to make people's lives worse.
Of course with Tories there’s always the cash to make people’s lives worse.
Yep - we're not going to build a new railway or resolve the doctor pay issue or train strikes cos they cost too much. But we're going to spaff billions up the wall in a Rwanda policy that might, if it ever works, make the lives of maybe 300 already desperate people slightly worse.
The National Service announcement has been spectacularly successful. A random policy that has completely distracted people from the more important subjects such as Rachel Reeves ruling out further tax increases or Hunt's unfunded £67 billion abolition of National Insurance ambition.
Or the fact that there will be no flights to Rwanda before the election which means it has, aside from being bitterly nasty a complete waste of money. Cleverley was doing the TV shows this morning and should have been roasted on that.
Oh look a squirrel!
A random policy that has completely distracted people from the more important subjects
I don't think that distracting people by coming up with nonsense policies, which everyone endlessly ridicules, is the way to claw back all that support which the Tories have lost in the last two years.
sure it’ll get a load of support from the boomers who harp on about WW2 even though they were likely not born then.
That’s bollocks. We know directly from our dads how shit being shot at is.
Eh?
People will have heard from their dads who served in WW2, how bad it was.
Same goes for National Service really. Details of the years and ages it applied to are complex, but people aged roughly 85-95 today would have done it, and would have told their children about their experience of it. If we assume they had kids at the age of 25, those kids would today be 60-70.
So between war and NS, mostly all boomers should have had a parent who could have told them about what being conscripted was like.
mostly all boomers should have had a parent who could have told them about what being conscripted was like.
My boomer parent never got told by their dad what the army was like, but that was because of the PTSD (undiagnosed, obvs). The most we ever got out of him was a light hearted story about the day after he signed up and then a brief mention of being in hospital with dengue fever. The other 4 years never got discussed.
@bikesandboots like I said up there, my Dad did national service for 3 years out in the middle-east and said it was the best thing that could have happened to a young lad with no direction or chance of getting out of his working-class destiny otherwise.
My grandad resolutely refused to ever talk about his time in the medical core in WW2. He was there when Belsen was liberated or very shortly after, apart from confirming this was true he never talked of it
People will have heard from their dads who served in WW2, how bad it was.
Does show the age in here. There's much younger generations that have a pretty intimate relationship with two way ranges.
I'm the bulk of my 24 year career was Iraq & Afghanistan with a smattering of the Balkans.
Anyhoo, this policy has been the source of much mirth and memes within military circles, so if nothing else he's boosted the morale of the troops.
I can kind of see some civil service volunteering not the bullshit idea of national service. But volunteering for reduction of uni fees I could imagine
I used to work with a guy who had been some kind of officer in the Israeli Defence Force (this was a long time ago). His job was looking after conscripts. He said it was completely hateful and awful as they really did not want to be there and spent their time trying to be as unpleasant as possible. He quit.
He said it was completely hateful and awful as they really did not want to be there and spent their time trying to be as unpleasant as possible.
Sometimes that's regular recruit training. It's hard ****ing work training & mentoring volunteers sometimes. I can't begin to fathom the hellscape that conscription would be.
shit like this is Ok if your ahead in the polls not when you 20 pts behind just makes you look stupid and desperate.
I can kind of see some civil service volunteering
It's not volunteering if you have to do it! And if you don't have to do it we already have a million ways for anyone to volunteer.
It’s not volunteering if you have to do it!
Voluntold. 😂
What if the national service that might be volunteering leads to folk volunteering to help asylum seekers?
Beware what you start Fishi Rishi.
If we assume they had kids at the age of 25, those kids would today be 60-70.
Yes I'm one of those kids. I'm 70. Actually my dad joined up voluntarily before WW2 as soon as he was eligible in order to get out of the pit where he had been since leaving school at 13. He was a pretty good musician, got into the regimental dance band and was well on the way to a great career as a bandsman when some mad bugger started a war.
After Egypt he found himself part of the ill fated attempt to control the Corinth Canal in Greece where his entire regiment were taken prisoner (well apart from a few senior officers who managed to get away). At least during the next 4 years as a PoW he was no longer being shot at though USAF managed to drop a bomb on the latrine block in the camp.
After the war he was part of the occupying forces in Northern Germany where he met my mum. She had her own tales of being a telephonist with the German army on the Eastern front and evacuated in goods wagons in the face of the Russian advance. Her home town ended up being only a couple of kilometres west of the East/West border.
I was made fully aware of the impact of the war on the ordinary people on both opposing sides. I have the utmost respect for all those caught up the horror of war including those like relapsed_mandalorian who volunteer to serve in the forces and utter contempt for the politicians who cause it.
So my Dad is 70, he avoided national service by a decent chunk. His dad did a 'career change' in 1936 from a plasterer to an engineer in the army......he was severely wounded at Arnhem in 1944 and was disabled for the rest of his life. Apparently I was the first relative he ever spoke to in any depth about his service.....even then he didn't say much. 'The first time you ever get shot at will stay with you for the rest of your life' was about as extensive as it got. Given that he was shot at in the 40's and was telling me this in the early noughties speaks volumes I suppose.
I think of the conversations that I had with my grandad, and wonder how exactly people conflate his experience with some weird Trumpian nationalism, as so often happens these days. His own dad was gassed in WW1 and died in 1921 as a result of his injuries when my grandad would've been 2. Very little was ever known of his childhood, but I'm assuming that growing up in poverty, pre welfare state, as one of 7 kids to a single mum in Stoke was pretty tough. I see that the MP for his childhood constituency Jonathan Gullis is espousing the virtues of national service today. He likes to pedal out his faux support of servicemen at any given opportunity. It's that type of Tory/nationalist which I find most distasteful. The stories and life experiences of the countless others like my grandad will never be understood by the ruling classes, however it really really pushes all the wrong buttons with me when I see what they went through being misrepresented in the ways that are all over social media today.
telegraph seem to have removed their earlier claim that polling showed that the majority of Britons want the return of national service
I moved to Spain right when NS was going through its death throes, and the opinion of all my colleagues - many of whom had been stretching out their legal exemptions for one reason or another - was that NS was a complete and utter waste of time. Community Service was marginally better, but even then how much useful work are you going to get out of a resentful, unskilled 18 year old, and wouldn't society be better off hiring someone on the dole to sweep the streets?
I was chatting to my Dad this morning. He was in the TA in the 1950's and got sent to Aden (now Yeman) but only because he needed the money. The full time army lot lived in fear of any of the TA getting hurt due to the paperwork and the headlines back home. Funny how little things change.
my Dad did national service for 3 years out in the middle-east and said it was the best thing that could have happened to a young lad
National service was 18 months, two years during the Korean War for some men ( like my dad, and boy did he resent the extra months ) They were then on the reserve list for four years, doing up to two or three weeks training three times in that period.
If he did three years some must have been as a volunteer I would imagine.
My mum’s cousin was of an age when he dropped out of uni, he became liable. He told me there was a choice between 18 months of being paid a pittance to sit in Catterick or NW Germany, or sign on as a volunteer for three years, be paid properly but risk being sent somewhere spicy. He chose the latter and ended up in Cyprus when things got exciting.
my Dad did national service for 3 years out in the middle-east and said it was the best thing that could have happened to a young lad
I can see that making sense when we had a far more rural, isolated society, but that's not the case here. Before Spain I lived in Egypt for a couple of years, and there was far more support for NS there - it got 18 year old men out of their villages, taught them to read and write, and showed them a world beyond the narrow frontiers of Hicksville, Egypt. C21 UK is close to 100% literate, there aren't that many obstacles to moving elsewhere to find a job, and foreign travel is not something only the rich do. What are we actually expecting to gain from this?
"So between war and NS, mostly all boomers should have had a parent who could have told them about what being conscripted was like."
Probably shite enough for it to be a pretty bad idea unless really necessary?
Don’t panic Captain Mainwaring!!
My father spent his NS, I guess in the very early 1950s, teaching other National Servicemen to read and write...... In the UK of 70 years ago, that was probably not a bad use of time for all involved.
National Service will be forgotten by Monday. It was only ever going to be an announcement, nothing more.
So, in a game of Tory Desperation Bingo...
What's their next announcement?
Guesses, funny or otherwise?😉
I left school in 86 in the north of England with 3 million+ unemployed. Of my immediate mates I was the only one who didn’t go into the forces. It was pretty much the only job available. I was lucky enough to get an apprenticeship.
Of the ones who are still alive I could get my mates to advise the new national service lot on the best therapists to deal with the PTSD which keeps them awake all night and *s up their lives
After what I’ve seen my mates go through I find it incredible the casual manner in which a vile little * like Sunak feels he has the right to force everyone into this life.
I’m sure it’s safe to assume that, as with all forms of conscription, the offspring of the moneyed class will have numerous ways to make sure it doesn’t apply to them. It’s only the little people who get conscripted
What’s their next announcement?
Limit on total benefits in a lifetime.
Defence minister ruled out return of National Service day after election called
Andrew Murrison told a Tory MP it would not be introduced ‘in any form’ as it would damage morale and discipline
Which is precisely why the idea does have a certain vague appeal to me (and I speak as a former conscript)
So what's going on? Yesterday an editorial in the Daily Telegraph was telling its readers what a great idea Rishi Sunak's national service policy was, today the the Daily Telegraph is reporting that a Tory defence minister has dismissed it as a crap idea which would negatively affect morale and discipline.
We might only be 4 days into this general election campaign but so far at least I don't recall ever enjoying a GE campaign this much before.
I lived in Egypt for a couple of years, and there was far more support for NS there – it got 18 year old men out of their villages, taught them to read and write, and showed them a world beyond the narrow frontiers of Hicksville, Egypt.
Yeeeesss...it also has the advantage of seeming to reduce unemployment, isolating and dispersing uppity youths (because you split them up from their friends and family) and providing cheap labour for the huge slice of the economy that is controlled by the military (and construction of generals' holiday houses).
All of these things are good for the state but not necessarily a great use of the youths' time. And that's before you get into the conscript-on-conscript torture and abuse...
I should point out that, as per Wikipedia, Andrew Murrison is a retired Royal Navy and then RNR officer. He’s probably got a good handle on what the armed forces think about the return of national service…
I should point out that, as per Wikipedia, Andrew Murrison has been a Conservative MP for 23 years. He’s probably got a good handle on just how big a walloping his party is in for, with this policy merely the cherry on top of the shit-cake we're going to be served over the next 6 weeks.
He is standing for re-election, but I suppose even knowing that he’s got a 20000 majority…
Limit on total benefits in a lifetime.
Ooh that's a good/very depressing shout. I'm still tending to agree with other posters a few pages back that they'll suggest the return of capital punishment.
In my experience Navy officers have little handle on anything other than their own importance…….
Limit on total benefits in a lifetime.
Including state pensions?
We might only be 4 days into this general election campaign but so far at least I don’t recall ever enjoying a GE campaign this much before
And they said it was going to be boring.
Ooh that’s a good/very depressing shout. I’m still tending to agree with other posters a few pages back that they’ll suggest the return of capital punishment.
Could be a little like the movie, In Time. An embedded display on your arm that ticks down to zero if you need to claim benefits.
Also ticks down if you use the NHS or social services etc.👍
Can go up if you vote for the "right" party or are a party donor obvs.
