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Person A and Person B meet up in a casino and buy £10k of chips each with their own bank cards.
Person A gives Person B £9.8k of their chips, cashes out the £200 they have left and leaves. Person B later cashes out £19.8k of chips onto their bank card and leaves.
First question - is that even legal - can you give away chips to another person in a casino in the UK?
Second question - If Person A later claims they lost £9.8k gambling and Person B claims they won £9.8k how easy would this be to disprove for Person C who has a joint account with Person A and thinks they are trying to be clever hiding money from them?
I am neither Person A, B nor C should any of them even exist.
Interesting idea. I think if it was a one-off there probably wouldn't be much to draw anyone's attention to it, especially if both person A and B spent some time in the casino and did some actual gambling.
If it was a systematic thing, especially in the same casino, I reckon the casino would spot it long before the police did, but both would take a dim view.
I read a very enlightening article about fixed odds betting terminals being a handy way of laundering money. If someone spends an afternoon feeding money into a roulette machine and knows they'll get back 95% of that money, with a receipt to say it's all been won fair and square, then 5% is a great commission to walk away with a wodge of "clean" money.
I'm not even person D in this situation...
Wouldn't ring alarm bells for laundering as they were purchased with bank cards. Would definitely raise eyebrows over the fact you were spotted as high rollers immediately and the fact you then only spent 200 quid. I visit now and again and see some very heavy spending though.
We can safely assume it's a one off event, neither are known to be gamblers.
I'd suggest person C considers why they have a joint account.
Dunno about the legality of giving someone else your chips... I guess you can but it seems a bit dodgy.
There must be more to this story, lol!
can you give away chips to another person in a casino in the UK?
I doubt there's a specific offence, but it is the transfer of a valuable instrument which usually needs reporting to HMRC under some rule or other. It's also probably a fraud of some type or other.
If you were being nefarious, and person C wanted to find out they probably wouldn't be able to prove it without some sort of police involvement.
Presumably you could just organise a game of Poker* and just play really badly.
*thinking of games where the house doesn't have to take part to avoid the risk of the house winning all your money.
I read a very enlightening article about fixed odds betting terminals being a handy way of laundering money. If someone spends an afternoon feeding money into a roulette machine and knows they’ll get back 95% of that money, with a receipt to say it’s all been won fair and square, then 5% is a great commission to walk away with a wodge of “clean” money.
Surely you would still have to show where the stake came from if investigated?
Mob boss: I won this £95k gambling
HMRC pen pusher: it says here you staked £100k paid from an account in Sicily?
Looks like person C is getting the shitty end of the deal here
Person A and Person B are friends, Person A and Person C are unhappily married (for now). Person C figures Person A has done this to give money to Person B to hold safe before initiating a divorce and will get it back from Person B afterwards, therefore keeping Person C from getting any of the money.
I think it would be quite difficult to prove without the casino getting involved. There won’t be win and loose records for each punter at each table so that’s a no go. One could perhaps argue at court that this was entirely contrived by showing no history of gambling at casinos, recently joining the casino, the link between a and b etc but that might be difficult to obtain in an evidential format, how can c show that b actually has the money?
how can c show that b actually has the money?
Can't prove it, just the story A & B are telling, ie one lost big time the other won. They egged each other on when out for drinks. I suspect C is stuffed then, would cost more in legal fees than money they would recover I imagine.
Outside a criminal justice investigation it would be impossible to prove.
You would need co-operation and disclosure from the casino and the beneficiaries bank.
Hmm, time to wheel the MIL into the local casino so she doesn't lose everything to Nursing Home fees.
Divorce, blimey. Might be a way to lose some inheritance money that's being gifted without tax, but before a divorce (unless Party C was horrible).
Sounds like someone has a divorce in the offing.
Sorry, someone the OP 'knows'
It is totally illegal obviously to dispose of money in this (or any) way if there is a divorce in the offing. A quick google reveals courts have powers to investigate, recover the money & penalise the offending party. Best get onto your solicitor OP!
I spent 10yrs working in the gaming industry. Behaviour as described would instantly trigger a money laundering inquiry. Casinos are legally obliged to watch out for such activities, £10,000 buy in would instantly trigger surveillance. Not purely to look for anything sinister but to monitor your gambling. High rollers are valuable assets they'd want to look after you. Passing large amounts of chips to others, not playing in a proportionate manner relevant to your buy in raises flags. It would all be recorded on cctv and a report sent to the authorities.
Guidance for Casinos.
https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/for-gambling-businesses/Compliance/General-compliance/AML/How-to-comply/Casinos-Prevention-of-money-laundering.aspx
inos are legally obliged to watch out for such activities, £10,000 buy in would instantly trigger surveillance. Not purely to look for anything sinister but to monitor your gambling. High rollers are valuable assets they’d want to look after you. Passing large amounts of chips to others, not playing in a proportionate manner relevant to your buy in raises flags.
I think I mentioned high rollers. The casinos, believe it or not don't have that many "unknown" folk buying in on that amount so they would immediately be watching. Dumping 50s on roulette spins in cash causes less drama, usually washed up footballers or Chinese businessman.
Thanks taxi - good info
Who cares?
It is totally illegal obviously to dispose of money in this (or any) way if there is a divorce in the offing
And paying on a bank card and having on bank records is going to make it easy to see what has happened. Give away chips or lose chips gambling, £10K has still gone.
Who cares?
Selfish people who are just about to go through a divorce?
Suspicious activity reports, as detailed by taxi25, aren’t disclosable in criminal investigations so you’ve no chance whatsoever of accessing one for a divorce.
If at some point Person A then asks Person B for the money back, what is to stop Person B from saying ‘what are you talking about I won that money in the casino’. Not a lot Person A could do at that point!
If I were Person C I’d be speaking to person B to say after the divorce give me half and you keep the other half.
Person C gets their fair share
Person B gets £5k
Person A gets shafted
I've always thought casinos are the common way for people to get cash into the banking system without tax or other authorities being aware, eg drug dealer with £10k cash, buys chips, plays a bit, cashes out to bank. Good to know there are some checks going on.
I would have thought that the prospect of having to explain in detail in a courtroom how this moment of casino madness did not amount to hiding assets would be sobering. The court, if unconvinced by this explanation, is able to award an extra slice of equity or remaining assets to a spouse...and person A could be ordered to pay person C's costs, which may or may not include forensic accountancy services.