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I don't have a TV, or watch iPlayer etc. Genuinely just not interested.
I've received a letter saying I'm now under investigation as I didn't reply to their first letter asking me to pay my TV licence.
I know its an option to, but am I under any obligation to make a declaration that I don't have a TV or watch iPlayer?
no.. no obligation at all. Just ignore it. They send out generic letters all the time, just working on what the computer spits out the database as addresses that have expired.
what they said
They can investigate as they see fit as you dont watch it what can they do
No. I have about fourty letters from them in my filing cabinet threatening investigations and court cases etc. They automatically assume that everyone watches tv so must have a licence. They have no power to demand anything from you. They also have no right of entry into your house if they do call. They may return with a warrant and a Police Officer but that only happened about six times last year.
I ignore them on principle, I don't watch or record Tv or watch iplayer so I'm doing nothing wrong and I object to their implication that I am.
You will get an endless stream of them, threatening all sorts of legal action. Eventually they will come round your house, you can let them in if you like and show you have no tv etc. They will agree, go away and then the process will start all over again.
Ignore it and all the others they'll send. I've not had a TV for almost ten years and still get them. You can declare but that only lasts for a year, and then the threatening letters start again.
I thought that might be the case. It says if you declare it they can send someone anyway, so can't really see the point.
They may return with a warrant and a Police Officer but that only happened about six times last year.
I think I'd be making a complaint!
Just ignore them. Its a generic mailout that is sent automatically to households who aren't on their database as owning a license.
The detector vans that they supposedly have are fake. This database is the primary method they use to work out who has a license and who doesn't.
You may occasionally get a visit (we've had 1 in 3 years) by someone working for Capita claiming to have all sorts of investigative powers. Don't speak to them, just close the door on them. They have no powers, and if you genuinely don't own a TV / don't watch live TV or iPlayer then you are legally within your rights to ignore them.
Wait for an inspector to arrive. Invite him in. Then start stripping and invite him to do the same. Your house. Your rules.
I got the "the letter" years ago. "Dear Sir, Our records show..."
I wrote back saying "Congratulations your records are correct".
I get these endlessly to. Eventually the sent an inspector round, I just casually said 'no comment' and shut the door and they went back to sending letters. I object to them assuming I'm guilty of something(which I'm not)
Yea, I get them too. I can't believe its legal. Anyone other than the BBC wouldn't get away with such abuse.
Just ignore them. Aside from the letters, they are toothless.
I'm looking forward to them coming round, looking though front window to living room and seeing bit "telly" on the wall.
Exactly the same, not had a telly for at least ten years, we get letters every month more and more threatening.
How they can assume everybody is a liar is beyond me.
They have visited and went through every room in the house, and said thanks that's perfectly fine, only for the letters to start three months later.
I just put any letter that says legal occupier in the recycling, they don't even know who I am.
If this is outsourced to crapita what do you expect?
Just apply to the TVLA for a provisional. As long as you are watching telly in the supervision of a full license holder over the age of 21, you will be fine.
lol
You can ignore it. Sooner or later you will get an inspector visit
They probably sent me 20 letters including legal action threats ? Most if that time I was out of the country 😉 Eventually I got a visit from an inspector and I was delighted to show him a room with no TV. He was a bit miffed to find nothing and more so when I told him I ignored the letters on principal as they where obnoxious and threatening.
I'm not quite sure I understand how (based on the above arguments that there is nothing they can do anyway), but thousands of people each year do get prosecuted. Whilst I am not saying the advice to "ignore" the letters from Capita / TV licensing are totally wrong, if you get into the habit of ignoring everything to do with TV Licensing you may miss the letters about court cases! North of the border that will be a letter from the Procurator Fiscal with a £75 fiscal fine that is deemed accepted if you don't dispute it; keep ignoring the consequences of that and you'll find yourself in the dock (possibly having spent a night in the cells). I'm not sure of the situation south of the border, but I think it could go to trial in your absence there with stupid levels of prosecution costs to pay. So by all means leave it to them to do the proving, but beware of the burying your head in the sand approach.
@poly they cannot take you to court unless they have evidence of an offence. Thats why the inspector comes round. The letters are just BS and it's not an offence to ignore them
How can they prosecute you with no evidence? I'm dubious that they've ever taken anybody to court who has simply ignored the letters and doesn't have a TV. Surely when they turn up at the magistrates court they have to at least provide basic proof of the alleged offence even if there is no defence.
The prosecutions are probably where you can see the TV through the window, they've let the 'inspectors' in, or plain admitted having a telly and refusing to pay.
Its outdated, I know it would muller the BBC budget but they need to go a pay channel model come in line with the other media places.
You can ignore it. Sooner or later you will get an inspector visit
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Similar position moved into a new flat in July had 3 of these letters so far last one mentioned an investigation had been opened £1000 fine etc .
Now I do actually have a TV but its not connected to either an aerial or Sky box . I do use an Amazon Firestick with Netflix on it to watch a few films box sets etc am i right in thinking the licence covers live tv only ?
Alcopop - a TV licence is required to watch BBC content - whether live or on-demand.
Oh well I'm fine then as I do neither...I'll await the visit with interest
Alcohol. I'm not sure but if you have the facility, ie TV firestick etc then that's a grey area.
Yes I know you can watch it on phones etc
They now automatically back date a licence to the point it expired. So if you have a licence that ran out in May 2016 and reapplied in September 2016 they charge you one year plus the extra 4 months when there was no licnse (16 motnths) this is wrong as you may have a TV but might not have watched it...
This happened to me. I wrote to them saying is was "out the country" (cough cough :wink:) for those months and they just dropped the extra £40 straight away no questions!
I just put any letter that says legal occupier in the recycling
I would make sure you open them first, 99% are from estate agents demanding to know why I'm not renting out my flat through them, the one on Monday was requesting information on change of address regarding some shares which had been registered at my parents' house.
Its outdated, I know it would muller the BBC budget but they need to go a pay channel model come in line with the other media places.
Why?
Right - here's an interesting question surrounding the whole iPlayer thing...
My wife and I are keen on watching Poldark on the BBC. We don't have a TV licence, so we nip to my parent's house to watch it. However, sometimes we have gone there, downloaded the programme to an iPad and watched it later at our house. The app asks 'Please confirm that you have a TV licence' before the download - we consider that downloading it at an address that is covered by a TV licence is almost the same thing as watching it live at that address. Legal or not?
It seems daft that the app asks if 'you' have a TV licence, but a licence is purchased to cover an address.
We need to get one point straight - owning a TV without a licence is not an offence - watching or recording live TV as its broadcast without a licence is an offence.
It makes no difference if its plugged into an aerial, sky box, cable or whatever - as long as you don't actually turn it on and watch or record live TV you are committing no offence.
People get caught by being bullied by the "inspectors" into allowing them into the house where they then incriminate themselves.
I have a TV but I only use it to watch DVD's or films from my hard drive.
Over here in Germany you have to pay for a 'licence" if you have a TV or not. And it's per person rather than per household.
Right - here's an interesting question surrounding the whole iPlayer thing...
I'd say that unless your permanent address is your parents' house, you require a licence.In practice, you'd only get prosecuted if you admitted this to one of the Capita "inspectors" when one visits and you choose to answer questions.
Advice seen on the TV licence versions of pepipoo is to ignore any letters and not to answer the door to/questions of inspectors. ( although [b]poly[/b],above, makes the point that Scotland is different).
A few years back, I didn't have a licence (or a tv) when living in a flat. Plenty of letters received and ignored, and unexpected buzzes on the entryphone were likewise ignored.
Just to clarify, when "live TV" is stated, this does not just relate to BBC content. This is a cover all term for any TV channel that is currently being broadcast. So for example if you only ever watched the ITV news at 10, at 10 o'clock as it was being broadcast, you would still need a licence. If however you only watch catch up, so watched the ITV 10 o'clock news the next morning on ITV i-player, you would not need a licence.
Iplyaer catch up is a special case. So watching BBC iplayer, whether live or on catch up - you need a licence.
If you're in any of the grey areas, I suggest you fully understand the rules and consequences etc.
Vader - MemberYou will get an endless stream of them, threatening all sorts of legal action. Eventually they will come round your house, you can let them in if you like and show you have no tv etc. They will agree, go away and then the process will start all over again.
Probably those sneaky rebels trying to sneak onto the Deathstar. Check for a hidden compartment in the "detector van" I would.
Or you could build a granny annex on your house and have your over 75 y/o Mum living there, and the TV licence is then free. 🙂
[i]They now automatically back date a licence to the point it expired. So if you have a licence that ran out in May 2016 and reapplied in September 2016 they charge you one year plus the extra 4 months when there was no licnse (16 motnths) this is wrong as you may have a TV but might not have watched it...
This happened to me. I wrote to them saying is was "out the country" (cough cough :wink:) for those months and they just dropped the extra £40 straight away no questions! [/I]
Which is one reason why they do continually ask/hassle, 'cos people don't have a licence when they should have...
[b]jambalaya - Membe[/b]r
@poly they cannot take you to court unless they have evidence of an offence. Thats why the inspector comes round. The letters are just BS and it's not an offence to ignore them[b]aracer - Member[/b]
How can they prosecute you with no evidence? I'm dubious that they've ever taken anybody to court who has simply ignored the letters and doesn't have a TV. Surely when they turn up at the magistrates court they have to at least provide basic proof of the alleged offence even if there is no defence.
In Scotland 99.9% of TV license offences are dealt with out of court, using Fiscal Fines (fixed penalties) which are deemed accepted if you don't dispute them within 28 days. No evidence is ever tested in court for those. Its dealt with like not taxing your car. If [i]those[/i] letters are ignored its too late. Thousands of people get Fiscal Fines each year for TV license offences without it going anywhere near a court to scrutinise the evidence.
I'm not clear what evidence they lead in an English Magistrates court when the accused doesn't appear. Certainly there will be no one to test that evidence, and so it will largely be at face value. The fact there are a large number of successful prosecutions suggests to me that ignore, refuse entry and say nothing is not a fool-proof tactic. Of course some [all?] of those people are breaking the law, but its surprising if having ignored all the correspondence they've all caved when the inspector arrives and admitted it.
Its simply because people don't realise that the "inspectors" have no right of entry into your house so they just let them in or alternatively the "inspector" asks "are you watching live TV?" If you say yes then thats it, job done.
[url= http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/about/foi-legal-framework-AB16 ]Official TV licensing website[/url]
Says you need a license to watch or "record live" any programme being broadcast on any channel or any broadcast platform.
Also "The licence fee is not a payment for BBC services (or any other television service), although licence fee revenue is used to fund the BBC".
Its worth reading some of the "legally TV license free" blogs for the actual law if you don't own a TV / don't watch live television.
[url= http://tv-licensing.blogspot.co.uk/p/free-book.html ]http://tv-licensing.blogspot.co.uk/p/free-book.html[/url]
In summary;
1. If you do not watch live television as it is being broadcast i.e. if you don't watch TV through an aerial or satellite dish, or live on the internet, then you don't need a TV license. End of.
2. If you watch iPlayer catchup, you now DO need a TV licence. Any other catchup TV services are not covered. As long as you do not use iPlayer, then you don't need a license.
3. If you only watch programmes or films online (as long as they are not simultaneously being broacast on television, you DO NOT need a license.
4. Own a TV set but don't use it? You DO NOT need a license.
5. The "Threat-O-Grams" that Capita send out to unlicensed properties monthly threaten all kinds of nasty things. They are all B/S. No investigation has been opened, and you will not be fined providing you adhere to points 1-4.
6. Most people get caught out when an inspector (or "Goon") comes round, giving it b/s with "you are being cautioned, you have the right to remain silent." Again, this is B/S designed to scare you into paying, even if you legally do not need a license. They want you to pay, regardless of whether you legally need to do so, and they will bully you (first through letters, then through the occasional visit). Without a warrant and police presence, they have no rights. Simply close the door on them.
7. The onus of proving that you are watching TV illegally is on the BBC / Capita. Simply "seeing" a television through an open window is not proof. Filming you watching iPlayer through a window would be proof however. Again, if you adhere to 1-4, you do not need a license.
8. Search warrants - Going by recently leaked BBC documents, only 100 or so of these are carried out each year. There's a lot of legal loopholes the BBC (Capital) need to jump through to get these.
devash dun-wrote:1. If you do not watch live television as it is being broadcast i.e. if you don't watch TV through an aerial or satellite dish, or live on the internet, then [b]you don't need a TV license. End of.
[/b]
2. If you watch iPlayer catchup, [b]you now DO need a TV licence[/b]. Any other catchup TV services are not covered. As long as you do not use iPlayer, then you don't need a license.
I personally only broadcast very locally on a single channel, much like the BBC I believe others should pay for this service, preferrably by direct debit.
If you do not watch live television as it is being broadcast i.e. if you don't watch TV through an aerial or satellite dish, or live on the internet, then you don't need a TV license. End of.
That website I linked to suggests you need a license if you record a live broadcast (and presumably watch it later).
Correct.
If you do not watch live television as it is being broadcast i.e. if you don't watch TV through an aerial or satellite dish, or live on the internet, then you don't need a TV license. End of.That website I linked to suggests you need a license if you record a live broadcast (and presumably watch it later).
That's right, he should of said "watch or record".
I'm amazed at people on this thread letting inspectors in their houses!
I ignore all the letters though I do actually read them as I live in Scotland. However since they all are just addressed to Legal Occupier how are they going to take me to court anyway?
My wife is a little annoyed we are missing Poldark since the iPlayer law changed!
Funnily enough, had a letter this morning. It states (in big red letters)...
"Your address has been scheduled for a vis by an Enforcement Officer"
I like the way they add capital letters to the enforcement officer, makes them sound very grand, and scary!
It also states that the Officer (capital again, or should that be capita) is from the Plymouth Enforcement Division. Quaking in my boots.
The kettle is on, I'll offer them tea in the garden while we gaze through the window at my "telly" on the wall. Might even set it up a DVD of some BBC show just for effect.
Trouble is Jane Powell (Enforcement Manager, Plymouth) has said all this before, many times, and nobody ever comes to visit 🙁
I've had two visits but sadly I wasn't home for either of them.
siwhite - Member
Alcopop - a donation to the TV licencing company is requested if you watch BBC content - whether live or on-demand.
I've fixed some inaccuracies in the above statement.
I'm amazed at people on this thread letting inspectors in their houses!
Once upon a time (over a decade ago) I let one in to our shared flat to check nothing was hooked up after declaring happily that yes, I did have a TV then just as he thought he was due a tasty carrot, beat him with the stick of truth that said it was only used for my consoles. Satisfied, off he sodded never to darken our doorstep again.
It used to work.
[quote=poly ]In Scotland 99.9% of TV license offences are dealt with out of court, using Fiscal Fines (fixed penalties) which are deemed accepted if you don't dispute them within 28 days. No evidence is ever tested in court for those.
Fair enough - but are they not required to have some evidence in order to submit the case? Are they dishonest enough to submit a case without any evidence that an offence has been committed (and isn't that fraudulent/perjury if you subsequently challenge it, whether or not it's possible to get off the fine)? There seems to be something a bit wrong with the law if that is the case.
I'm not clear what evidence they lead in an English Magistrates court when the accused doesn't appear. Certainly there will be no one to test that evidence, and so it will largely be at face value.
There surely has to be some evidence to present to the magistrates of the offence being committed otherwise they would throw the case out. They would have to commit perjury in order to do so - I don't think I'd be prepared to do that as part of my job (and if there was any evidence of a corporate culture of doing so, that would surely come out following a prosecution based upon made up evidence).
The fact there are a large number of successful prosecutions suggests to me that ignore, refuse entry and say nothing is not a fool-proof tactic. Of course some [all?] of those people are breaking the law, but its surprising if having ignored all the correspondence they've all caved when the inspector arrives and admitted it.
As others have explained people basically incriminate themselves - either by letting the inspector in, or by making admissions they don't necessarily realise they're making. I did a bit of a search on this, and it appears one tactic is to get the [s]criminal[/s] resident to buy a TV licence from the inspector, which is taken as an admission of guilt. A report I found on TV licence cases at a magistrates court everybody had admitted guilt in some way.
I should point out that I'm looking at this from the perspective of getting all the threatening letters despite not having a working TV - recently sold my mum's house after it had been unoccupied for a couple of years and had piles of them, from the basic checking if a licence was needed, through those warning of visits like UrbanHiker's to some threatening court action (of those I opened, most were binned unopened). I've no idea if an inspector ever visited, was only there once a month or so.
Just go on the TV Licencing website and you can fill in a form declaring you don't use the service.
After that, no hassle.
Just go on the TV Licencing website and you can fill in a form declaring you don't use the service.After that, no hassle.
The hassle starts again sooner or later, plus they don't ask nicey 😉
Also you have to tell them your name and email address to do that. I don't want to help them gather information on me.
It's been a while since I've filled in the form on-line, but if memory serves they even ask for your date of birth!
[quote=Chew ]Just go on the TV Licencing website and you can fill in a form declaring you don't use the service.
After that, no hassle.
Binning the letters wasn't really any hassle.
Jane in Plymouth writes to me as well. We should invite her to a meet.
Every month I get a reminder which seems to me to be threatening in tone and quite unpleasant. After about two years of this a pleasant yong chap rang my doorbell, introduced himself, and wanted to be invited in. I checked his ID and declined. We talked a little, he asked to be allowed to look through my front room window, I declined. He drove away. It's a job, it keeps him off the streets.
The letters resumed.
One new twist is that The BBC had the law changed so they can listen in to your router signal. They have done something to BBC data so it's recognisable by their new detectors. Thus they can catch you downloading from Iplayer. I read that the snooping on your stuff would have been illegal before.
Just go on the TV Licencing website and you can fill in a form declaring you don't use the service.After that, no hassle.
The hassle starts again sooner or later
Usually sooner.
One new twist is that The BBC had the law changed so they can listen in to your router signal. They have done something to BBC data so it's recognisable by their new detectors. Thus they can catch you downloading from Iplayer. I read that the snooping on your stuff would have been illegal before.
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/06/bbc_detector_van_wi_fi_iplayer/
One new twist is that The BBC had the law changed so they can listen in to your router signal. They have done something to BBC data so it's recognisable by their new detectors. Thus they can catch you downloading from Iplayer. I read that the snooping on your stuff would have been illegal before.
I'd love to see a credible source for that as I very much doubt it's true (or for that matter, possible). If there were any truth to it, they'd surely get the data in bulk directly from the ISPs rather than fannying about with individual routers.
It's entirely plausible that the TV Licensing Authority [i]want [/i]you to believe that, however. It's basically the same myth as detector vans.
[i]Also "The licence fee is not a payment for BBC services (or any other television service), although licence fee revenue is used to fund the BBC". [/I]
and SC4 and (a bit of) Channel 4
[citation needed]One new twist is that The BBC had the law changed so they can listen in to your router signal. They have done something to BBC data so it's recognisable by their new detectors. Thus they can catch you downloading from Iplayer. I read that the snooping on your stuff would have been illegal before.
@Urban yes I had tons of those red letters "visit scheduled" but as the property was empty most of the time I hope the whole thing was a waste of their time. As I said I was in once and the guy bounded upstairs enthusiastically before seeing a room with no TV. He asked why I hadn't registered the property that way and I said as it's not compulsory to do so 🙂
One new twist is that The BBC had the law changed so they can listen in to your router signal. They have done something to BBC data so it's recognisable by their new detectors. Thus they can catch you downloading from Iplayer. I read that the snooping on your stuff would have been illegal before.
Yeah, yeah, definitely, that's definitely what they do. Definitely.
The only way to do that would be to hack the wifi password on your router, aside from being very labour intensive I'm pretty sure is illegal as it would give them access to all your private network traffic and devices... and how would they know which house or person a router belongs to? I can pick up about 5 private neighbours networks from my house
It's lucky for the BBC that no-one has a password on their Wifi. That would really scupper them.
The only way to do that would be to hack the wifi password on your router,
It's far from the only way.
As a random example: If, as claimed, the iPlayer has some sort of unique signature in its datastream, it's plausible (though non-trivial) that this could be detected by some sort of EM sensor near the telephone wire.
But really, we're into tinfoil hat territory here.
Might have to crack out kali linux tonight and snoop some packets.
Did have a theory that the source and destination MAC addresses must be in the clear even in encrypted packets, and since MAC address ranges have some kind of register, if lots of traffic is flowing to those registered as TVs then you have one small subset of potential cheaters to investigate further.
It wouldn't pick out anyone using iPlayer apps or websites on phones, PCs, etc. but could pick out those with a TV and the app in that. Similarly people playing youtube or something directly on that TV could come up as a false positive.
either way, it's bullshine. good luck to them if they want to try to snoop my LAN for iPlayer packets 😉
I'll just carry on collecting the DVB signal overspill with a parabolic antenna before those waves hit my apartment 😉
Another truly STW thread. Awesome guys.
I knew I'd read it somewhere. Apologies to all for having trusted the MSM.
From early next year, a detailed login will be required to watch iplayer, so I guess they'll know then when you're watching.
Just to be sure, you don't need a license to listen to BBC radio and radio iPlayer?
Nope.Just to be sure, you don't need a license to listen to BBC radio and radio iPlayer?
From early next year, a detailed login will be required to watch iplayer, so I guess they'll know then when you're watching.
Just had a glance at the top 40 programmes, looks like Eastenders, The Apprentice and The Great British Bake Off and all their variants make up half of the list. They can keep it and I'll keep my £145 a year.
Sorry, yeah, watch and/or record.
The last time I recorded a TV programme was back in the age of VHS, so I forgot this was possible. 😀