[Closed] Turbocharger replacement... I have gambled poorly.

Replace oil feed remove sump and clean it out flush as much of the engine through as you can.

Find a engine that hasnt lunched its turbo fit and fit that 🙂

Don't know about mondeos but a lot of manufactures put a fine gauze filter in the banjo bolts in one end or the other of the turbo oil feed pipe, this is usually blocked with carbonated oil resulting in instant oil starvation - check the banjo bolts are clear.

Not sure what's the situation, has the new turbo failed?
I did one a while ago got the turbo from a place in Wakefield who weren't the cheapes but very helpful. There advise was defo change oil feed as well which was harder to fit than the turbo but seems likely to be reason the original turbo broke. Also took the intercooler apart as most the engine oil seemed to have found it way into there.

Anyway it's been on about 10k miles now and all fine, better than before tbh. If the cars otherwise good give it another go.

@IanW- yep, new one is deaded. Caught it early so it's less explosively dead than the last one, but still dead.

@parkesie- cheers for that. Didn't plan to go as far as dropping the sump but it seems like good practice. New engine definitely not an option- ST motors not that common and frankly the car's not worth enough to get into that. And frankly not sure there's any point- the one upside of this whole ****-up is that I got to roadtest it post big-turbo-explosion and it seems fine, drove normally. So basically, I [i]think[/i] it needs a turbo and it needs a turbo-destroying problem fixed and that's it. Oh and a wheel bearing but that's kinda fiddling while rome burns 😉

Hmmmmm. This took an unexpected turn. When I stopped the car, the turbo was obviously damaged- looked in the intake, compressor wheel visibly chewed. I put that down to play in the journal allowing it to contact the housing, seemed the obvious answer- oil stops play.

But I just pulled the dead charger out of the car, and it spins like new, no play in it either. There's not a chance this has hit the housing- looks like something's hit it.

Now I checked the intake tract for debris, and I suppose I can't rule out the possibility that I missed something. But equally it's put material defect back on the menu... ie it's hit itself.

What do you reckon?

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(next step- lots of intake and intercooler cleaning and fragment searching)

You left a bolt in the pipes?

Must've been something small to cause so little damage

Stop throwing good money after bad and buy something with a petrol engine.

Interesting that the damage is just to alternate vanes (well that's what it looks like).
The damaged ones also look to have a different profile (taller=closer to the inlet).

The question I'd now be asking is how much damage have all the missing bits of impeller vane done to the engine itself?

you cleaned out the intercooler and all airside pipework right?

if not then you have just seen what debris from the old turbo can do to the new one ..

As above, you may have an engine that's not going to last much longer now stuff's passed through the turbo. I'd be taking a glow plug or two out and having a looking with an arthroscope(or somesuch thingy)

I'd be taking a glow plug or two out and having a looking with an arthroscope(or somesuch thingy)

And if that other thread is anything to go by, opt for sedation rather than throat spray.

Then buy a 27.5 inch turbo to make the engine come alive

Then buy a 27.5 inch turbo to make the engine come alive

Cheers folks...

Simple explanation is a bit of debris in the air intake isn't it... I did clean it out but I figure we must be talking something small here so I can't rule out overlooking it in all the nooks and crannies. I was wondering about one of the vanes losing a bit (and then effectively running into itself), or maybe some other thing like mad overspeed, but those don't seem as likely. (can't see any cause for an overspeed, no split hoses or anything)

richmars - Member

Interesting that the damage is just to alternate vanes (well that's what it looks like). The damaged ones also look to have a different profile (taller=closer to the inlet).

Aye, it's a dual vane design so whatever it was hit the top ones but never hit the bottom ones. Which I don't know, either implies it got more or less mashed to dust by the first row, or it flukily passed through without touching the second row. Or it bounced back up the inlet tract as the turbo slowed!

Sanity check... The engine ran normally other than the loss of boost and power so that's in its favour. My instinct is not to look beyond the boost pipes and intercooler, ie easy places to look. Beyond that, it gets complicated pretty fast, with no guarantees of really achieving much- if we're talking tiny bits of metal, they could evade inspection anyway. And if I find bad news, well, that's not so much better than finding it later by driving the car. Does that sound reasonable?

PeterPoddy - Member

Stop throwing good money after bad and buy something with a petrol engine.

I nearly bought the petrol version- so far the 2 injectors and now 2 turbos work out pretty similiar to the saving in tax. And the saving in fuel has paid for the entire car 🙂 So I think I will live.

Could you just take the turbo off and run it without.

Nah, the turbo's built into the exhaust manifold on these. It does start and idle though (well it did til I took the turbo off!), and when it broke it ran happily while I was stopping etc- boost aside obviously.

(I wonder what sort of power it'd make naturally aspirated if I fixed the fuelling... Not very much!)

So it's not like some chunk has already caused havoc, I'd bet an entire scottish pound that the engine is untouched so far... but it's always possible there's something in there waiting to make itself known, like a rake in the grass. That's basically the decision... I don't think I can make an educated call on that really but I'm inclined to suck it and see. (and squeeze it, and bang it, and hopefully not blow it)

Do you believe in lucky (or unlucky) things? Given it's dunking, smoking and now turbo blowing I'd be very tempted to fix it and flog it. A recon turbo shouldn't be *that* much should it?

I wonder what sort of power it'd make naturally aspirated if I fixed the fuelling

I suspect the 'fuelling' (or rather injection quantity) would sort itself out based on the MAF reading, but you'd certainly get a load of error codes about boost pressure. Only way to fix this would be a custom remap, probably, or some complicated electronic work to fool the ECU to thinking it's got the right amount of boost it's asked for. Actually even with the MAF working it would smell a rat probably.

In any case, even if you could fix this, you'd get naff all power because the compresison ratio of an engine designed for turbocharging is quite a bit less than a NA one.

I'd be very tempted to fix it and flog it.

You wouldnm't get much for it if you were honest about it.. are you suggesting dishonesty?

You wouldnm't get much for it if you were honest about it.. [b]are you suggesting dishonesty?[/b]

Not at all. What are you implying?

Not implying anything, I asked directly 🙂

OK, so what makes you think that I may have been [i]suggesting dishonesty[/i]?

I'm genuinely intrigued.

@geoffj... I like the car and realistically it'd mean a downgrade. And though it's been a pain lately, at least I know about it 😉 In theory all the other stuff is now history, and was all reasonable enough stuff- injectors and turbo at this age are definitely within spec.

So yeah, what I want to do is fix it and keep it. Will it play ball? Don't know yet. But I don't think it's a basket case, or parked on an ancient indian burial ground, or otherwise bejinxed.

1) Time to check out all the intake pipework, filter & cooler. Sort the oil supply. Fit another turbo. Cross fingers.

and

2) How much is this car worth? I'd be thinking of trade in at this stage.

@Northwind - better the devil you know and all that! 🙂

are you suggesting dishonesty?

If it's fixed there's nothing to tell.

Oh and a wheel bearing

I did the wheel bearings at the same time, they were more difficult! (Audi pressed into the disc type.)

1) Ironically, I suspect the oil supply is actually fine. I'll change the line anyway, it was stupid not to do it last time, but doesn't seem to have come into it.

2) Car was £2000 when I got it, I've put 25000 miles on it since, realistically even without grumbles it's not worth a lot (it's cosmetically rough as a badger's arse but it still seems fundamentally solid). I think on balance it's worth more to me than it is to sell, you know? Unless of course it shits the bed again next week, then I'll end up beating it with a stick.

@IanW, wheel bearing is pretty trivial, I just don't feel like fixing it til I've done a few miles post-turbo-geddon 🙂

Will it play ball?

What people don't realise is that a car is not one thing, it's a collection of things. If one goes wrong, it doesn't necessarily mean it's all unreliable and will go wrong again.

OK, so what makes you think that I may have been suggesting dishonesty?

Nothing - you said sell it, it wasn't clear if you meant bodge it to fool a buyer knowing it'd go wrong later, or give full disclosure. After all, if it's fixed then why sell it?

I asked you to clarify, you did - that's all there is to it.

I'm intrigued to know why YOU think I was suggesting you were suggesting dishonesty 🙂

even id have given up by now northwind on account of the dunking - the real cost of that is yet to rear its head imo....

id fix it and flog it - or id possibly even cut my losses at sticking it on ebay as spares or repairs.

I'm with Northwind. It's worth fixing unless it's specifically expensively borked - like a cracked block or severe rust or something.

Remember the market value of a car is unrelated to its practical value.

Are you not making the classic banger owners mistake? Another turbo, oil line, wheel bearing (easy yes but Mondeo front wheel bearings are big and a bit more costly than most.... I got caught out they way).... You are half way towards the cost of a tells replacement with 25k less on the clock.... Over maybe. Purely financially this must be close, or favour replacement. So then the issue is, is hunting for the replacement less hassle, or more, fixing this car?

replacement is unknown though - i understand that aspect how ever just the fact that this one has been flooded is enough for me to be out on that one.

Another turbo, oil line, wheel bearing (easy yes but Mondeo front wheel bearings are big and a bit more costly than most.... I got caught out they way).... You are half way towards the cost of a tells replacement with 25k less on the clock

But the replacement could have any of these things fail at any time. If he replaces the bearings and turbo, they are then new, and he can depend on them lasting a long time*.

* provided he fits them properly 🙂

i do hate car shopping.... im a cynical bam.

I rebuilt the whole front end of my "going to be written off"jeep rather than go car shopping .... how ever it had full 12 months ticket and tax - all new suspension and brakes before the crash - the 200 quid i paid in scrappy parts to put it back to right was significantly less hassle than finding another for the 500 quid they tried to offer me after excess...

how ever flood damage rarely manifests its self at the time.... thats my issue with this job.

Molly, I said fix not bodge.
But of course this is a problem car thread - I bow to your superiority and experience.

molgrips - Member

What people don't realise is that a car is not one thing, it's a collection of things. If one goes wrong, it doesn't necessarily mean it's all unreliable and will go wrong again.

But what you're forgetting is that every car also contains a temperamental imp, which can be quick to anger and slow to forget. It remains to be seen whether my tribute has been accepted.

neilnevill - Member

Are you not making the classic banger owners mistake? Another turbo, oil line, wheel bearing (easy yes but Mondeo front wheel bearings are big and a bit more costly than most.... I got caught out they way).... You are half way towards the cost of a tells replacement with 25k less on the clock....

I don't think so... Realistically, an equivalent replacement with less miles is £2500 and upwards- this one was exceptionally cheap because of its cosmetic crapness, any 2.2 at a comparable price will have a story. Other cars are available of course but that's the like for like.

I'm looking at about £300 of parts and consumables to (hopefully) fix the turbo. SKF wheel bearing is £130, though I might use a Conti one at £50, they've got a good rep from STDrivers. If I was paying labour things would look pretty different of course.

Regardless of next steps, it's going to be worth getting it back on the road I reckon.

trail_rat - Member

even id have given up by now northwind on account of the dunking - the real cost of that is yet to rear its head imo....

What's your prediction? Genuine question, I'm expecting it could well have an impact on hidden rust- sills and doors etc. But it's done a good few thousand miles since the Great Flood and seems surprisingly unaffected, I was braced for electrical problems etc.

But of course this is a problem car thread - I bow to your superiority and experience.

Hehe 🙂

Interesting damage to your turbo there ... hmmm ...

electrical plague manifesting its self over time as connection corrode

i wouldnt worry about rust tbh , that is the least of my worrys about a car

@trail_rat, pretty much how I feel about rust- I went through it and did some drying and protection stuff but it's not a big concern.

Electrics did bother me- my dad's Passat was killed by a rainwater leak, the thing went senile. But 4 months on and with the car long since dried, nothing's come up so I'm pretty comfortable with that. It seems lucky, mind- the car's got all the toys and electric everything, I was almost shocked that the seats still work!

Electrics aren't too complicated really. Just wires, sensors and ECUs.

What bothers me about ECUs is the completely closed and proprietary nature of the ECUs. I wish they were open source, then I could connect and debug and figure out what was going on, like I do at work 🙂

I wouldn't say the car is a lemon but more that Northwind has had a go at fixing it himself and made a few errors along the way. Personally I'd fix and keep the car. The problems with injectors and turbo were probably related to it's unscheduled bathtime.
Get another turbo and oil line but do the job right, no cutting corners. I would clean the boost pipes out for peace of mind. With the wheel bearings go for SKF. I had the Conti Direct rear bearings on mine and I was one of those who gave it a good review on ST Drivers. Less than a year later and both sides had play in them. I've had to replace them again this time with SKF bearings.

That's classic foreign object damage. Something's flown into the compressor wheel, bounced around a bit and gone bye byes. I wouldn't worry too much about ingestion into the engine itself - all the little bits will be trapped in the intercooler's labyrinthine matrix. You [i]might[/i] be able to clean it out, but I'd doubt it & pretty certain that you'll need a new intercooler. Where's the air mass meter, downstream or upstream of the turbo?

MAF is prior to the turbo

Given the slight damage then, I'd be checking the columnator and mesh screen in the maf. Anything metal would have chipped the casing of the turbo and possibly even still be wedged there.

New chra now in the turbo... Nice that, it's like fixing a watch after all the big spanners stuff. Nothing in the turbo, there's a single wee pockmark in the base of the compressor wheel showing sonething small and rapid passing through but no other marks (figured out that what I thought might be damage on the nut, is actually balancing) . Bit of a halt waiting for a gasket kit, oil line is at fords waiting for me to ride over and get it.

@craigxxl- thanks for the update on the bearings, that's useful to know. I'd seen your recommendation 😆 I'm kind of liking the irony that the error of judgement with the oil line ended up being irrelevant, it's nice to get a second chance at stuff like that. (also a lesson in listening to the internet- there's so much talk about it being expensive and hard to change and it's all cobblers, if I'd known how relatively cheap and easy it is, I'd have done it first time round!)

@hotfiat, will do, that's useful. I'm reasonably resigned to this having been a bit of debris from turbo #1 that I missed tbh, it'd be quite a coincidence for an unrelated failure. I'll all the intake hoses right down to components and flush them out rather than doing it manually, just in case there's anything else in there. (boost bits are all off already)

What's the reasoning for a new intercooler? Just to get rid of any trapped debris or is there more to it than that.

Oh, 2 specific questions... The actuator (vacuum type) has an endstop adjustment, just a wee rod and nut. I can't find any guidance on how that should be set- any ideas? I've contacted the seller but they do seem like a boxshifter.

(the 2 old turbos were set up differently, natcherly 😉 )

And also, what's the simplest way to ensure one of these doesn't fire when turning over? Fuse for fuel pump or similar?

Yeah, you'll never be able to clean it out. The rattly bits will fall or dyson out but there'll be alloy shavings clogging up every other channel & you'll never get rid of the seeds of doubt about future engine ingestion.

It's a diesel & will happily run on residual vapour in the inlet. The only way to stop firing is to remove compression - so take the glow plugs out.

The waste gate actuator - now you're into the black art of forced induction. Sadly you've no real hope of setting preload at home. You need a good boost gauge and some time with a dyno or [s]rolling road[/s] merry-go-round. A remanufacturer will set it with calibrated vacuum and air lines so that it just opens as max boost is reached. Most are now fully ecu controlled and so you will have no idea when it's supposed to open.

OK, cheers. Does it seem reasonable as a starting point to set it up to match the remanufactured turbo (being the most recent/known good one, and sharing the same actuator etc?)

I'm looking at about £300 of parts and consumables to (hopefully) fix the turbo.

I was thinking the turbo would be a lot more, at £300 its well worth fixing. Even when you've added on another intercooler.

Depends if the actuator is truly the same. I've seen supposedly identical t3s from minis with different rating diaphragms. If it was an old banger like our mini was I'd be saying "yes it'll be fine".

You're not thinking of re-spindling the turbo yourself are you? Bonnets with shrapnel in aren't cool. It is do-able (I've done it) but f&*% me it's the trickiest thing I've ever done. (disassemble, re-build, balance, disassemble, re-assemble, pray)

It's physically the same actuator- I'm putting a complete replacement chra cartridge into the shell of the recon turbo.

What's chra?

chra - Turbocharger rotating assembly. The spinny bit, seals and oil feed manifold. Sometimes known as the cartridge.

The actuator'll probably work.

[i]No warranty, physical, implied or inferred is provided with this post[/i].

Basically the guts 😆

Cheers for that Hotfiat.

You're not thinking of re-spindling the turbo yourself are you? Bonnets with shrapnel in aren't cool.

😆

So an update... She lives! Also, think I have my smoking gun, which is annoying...

Went through basically everything in a bit more detail as I had no pressure of time this time round, found nothing interesting in the intake pipes, nothing bigger than flakes in the boost pipes or intercooler... But a wee glint in the air filter caught my eye. It has a foam pipercross with a wire mesh fitted and there were some wee bits of metal debris still caught between the mesh and filter material. I also spotted a little of what looks like impact damage in the hard plastic air feed pipe. So it looks like some of turbocharger one went back up the air intake in a hurry, got stuck in the filter, then gradually came back out.

So that's a bummer really- I could have seen that and avoided the whole second charger fiasco. But I don't feel too bad about it either, it was quite missable. Chalk one up for experience.

So the car's built and idles but I've not driven it anywhere as it'd probably end up sucking up a rock and destroying yet another compressor wheel 😆 But it's looking good.

So cheers folks! Not putting up the bunting just yet, needs a roadtest and, oh, 500 miles before i'll be completely happy. MOT next week so, wheel bearing to change, possibly rear discs...

Never bored with a ford lad.

(Mondeo mk3 tdci owner)

Look one the bright side, at least your turbos are cheap! My rally car lunched it's turbo, i managed to find a "cheap" replacement (£5k) and on the next event the ALS malfunctioned and melted that one. Another £5k later and we were rolling again....... ouch!

BTW, ditch the silly air filter and just re-fit the OEM one. Modern cars don't have restrictive intakes and don't need or benefit from stupid aftermarket filters that don't do any filtering!

At that price, I can afford to replace 20 turbos for the same price as your one 😆 Maybe I'll just carry a couple of spares around in the boot. "Sorry I'm late for work" "FFS Andrew, that's 2 turbochargers this week!"

It came with the pipercross fitted, which was weird frankly considering the car's history- I guess Previous Owner liked the lifetime warranty or something... (when I removed it the first time to clean, there was a roll of electric tape and a pair of scissors inside the airbox, on the unfiltered side, which I'm sure also add performance)

The ST chaps do reckon it's worth a little power but not enough to notice I think so it's getting an OEM one. Considering the filter's the size of a ceiling tile I don't think it's that restrictive! I've generally got on with Pipercross, they worked really well in the motorbike, but it doesn't make much sense in a road car I think.

I've had a K&N filter in my Mondeo until I had the not so bright idea of using Mucoff to clean it which rotted the foam. Putting the OEM filter back in there was a noticeable difference with less pickup above 2000rpm so fitted a Pipercross which has restored the lost go.

Damn it Craigxxl! Just as I make a decision you go and confuse matters 😆

Try it for yourself with an OEM they're only £8 but I know yours it mapped and decat too so I would expect similar results.

Yeah, it was mapped with the Pipercross. We'll see I guess! If it doesn't impact the drivability I'll be happy enough i think. The definition of success here is more "I own a car and it gets me to Ae next weekend without exploding again" rather than "everything is perfect" 😉

Woo hoo. Good work! Hope the testing goes well. No damage to the maf then?

Cheers! Maf seems OK- looks fine, and no fault codes (though, to put that into perspective, other things that don't cause a code are "You've filled your car with water", "Holy balls, the compressor wheel fell off the turbocharger" and "One of the injectors is so screwed, it just hydrolocked the engine". However "You've fitted an EGR blank plate" definitely gets its attention.)

Was a wee bit skeptical tbh, still am really, strong temptation to replace it but if I get into replacing everything in the car that I've got mild doubts about, I'll end up with a new car. There's caution and then there's paranoia.

I decided to appease the automotive gods by fixing the sparks on the motorbike today. Not directly valuable, this, as it just means it's permanently parked in the garage instead of broken down, but it feels like it should put me in credit.

Lol. It's not Marelli ecu by any chance? Ooh small font. How's that happen?

Delphi I think. Though that's a Google Fact.

I also resprayed the surround for the front grill. I don't like chrome, so I took this off almost as soon as I got the car, prepped and primed it, then never painted it. For the last 2 years it's been variously knocking around the garage, the shed, the conservatory and the bedroom, every so often I've noticed that it's got scratched, reprimed it and then never painted it. How long will it take before I decided to cut the finish back and polish it up? Decades probably.

Road test succesful. Does it drive exactly the same as before? Don't know 😆 Full on hypochondriac mode, every squeak and clank is the end of the world. Need to turn the stereo up! But it feels good. Was a bit cautious with it so not really sure how it's all going at full power etc but I'm not finding anything to worry about yet. Decided I want 500 miles on it before I declare it fixed but in the meantime, good start.

(a week of borrowing my dad's Focus has left me barely able to work my ungodly heavy clutch though, my left leg's atrophied. My right leg on the other hand has become mighty, from trying to push the accelerator through the floor to get extra horses out of its mighty 1.6 petrol zetec)

Unrelated; Got defeated by 2 of the wheel bearing bolts. Decided I've earned a day off so **** it, the garage can do it 😆

I thought I should put a follow-on considering all the useful advice here... I've put a few hundred miles into it and it seems fine. Power/responsiveness is a hard thing to judge I think but if I was to bet money I'd say it's coming on boost later... which might just be as simple as a side effect of the cheap turbo core tbh. But totally livable with and drivable etc. So all in all, seems good. Walked the MOT which isn't that meaningful really, but still good news

Still chasing gremlins mind- a bit smokey on startup, what are the odds that I can completely destroy the car while changing the glow plugs? 🙂

Oh... And was driving around thinking, what's that whining noise? That very quiet rev-dependent whirr? Oh god it's the bloody dmf isn't it. Nope, I forgot I got the air con regassed the day the turbo blew, this is just the noise my aircon makes now it works 😳

Oh and I'll just not mention the bit where a mystery misfire at steady cruising revs turned out to be caused by not quite putting the injector wiring connector all the way in. Never happened.

Are you and Molgrips twins separated at birth? A similar stubbornness to resolve seemingly pointless fixes in the face of economic and common sense? 🙂

However, good on you for sticking with it and getting it fixed.

I had a similar PIA/intractable issue with my bike until yesterday. Nonda Blackbird with the dreaded '25 flashes of the F1 light' error code. This is a faulty knock sensor code but can also be a faulty loom or faulty ECU reporting a false positive. After 6 months of fault tracing, it got a new ECU yesterday and no more false error code. Trouble is, all errors are reported through the same light so I couldn't just cover it up and ignore it. Replacement Honda ECU.... HOW ****IN MUCH??!! 🙁

If the rest of the car is good (and you obviously know the car/providence*) then I would do it properly. You've already invested money in the car to get to this stage. Did you source the turbo yourself? If the garage did THEY should find another AND not charge you labour again to get you to the same point. No matter what bollocks they say. Of course oil feed/sump etc is additional labour cost. Of course this bits alittle muddy as if they told you the rest needed doing and you went for the cheapest option against their advice then its your cost of course.

Do it properly then run the car for another 50k IMO. In the past I've thrown the towel in stupidly early on a car that needed work. Regretted it with hindsight.

If at any point the garage offers to help you out/take it off you- don't. They aren't Mother Theresa but angling to make money knowing its a good car.

*Of course every secondhand car needs bushes/droplinks etc doing along with consumables. You'd walk into another car with the same list of consumables that will pop up over the next thousand(s) of miles too. At least with yours- you know the car.

Providence=provenance?

Early. I wish I'd never gotten ridden of my Subaru 🙁

Hora, thanks for your contribution but it'd probably have made more sense if you'd read the thread 😆

First thing I have to post on a tiny S3 mini. It doesn't help.