[Closed] Tube drivers - bunch of *****

And good on Crowe for getting them such good wages. They're not getting it out the goodness of TFL's heart.

Russell Crowe?

50k in london is still a decent wage.

Then you'll have no problem with the drivers earning a decent wage eh?

With DD here (he's sounding suspiciously like elfin), imagine if we got the same value for money from elected officials that the RMT members do.

I've got no sympathy for the drivers on this particular issue, but in general support their actions- too many people here (I'm guessing largely outside the m25) feel that since they're not in a position to obtain a pay rise that everybody else should suffer.

Blimey DD - and we wonder why this country is in a mess???

One of the worst things about using the tube is the message that "London Underground is running a good service on all lines." I'm sure the irony is unintentional but it really grates. Its a bit like the posters going on about TFL not having thick skins. For sure they have rights to be treated correctly by the rest of the public, but when a good service constitutes traveling in dirty trains in cramped conditions, I would like to think that TFL might put the passengers first. How about some posters saying, sorry this really in a very average service at best, but bear with us it might get better one day. For £230k the marketing director ought to be able to do something along those lines.

50k in london is still a decent wage

Yeah I'd agree with you now why isnt everyone else earning it.

Blimey DD - and we wonder why this country is in a mess???

I don't think this country is in a mess at all. If I did, I wouldn't live here.

EDIT: But then you go on some tirade about how TFL is treating its customers badly? I can't see the connection...but I have a feeling you'll explain it to me.

Looking at that list I reckon every single person on it could just about scrape by if you halved their wages . They still would be on a hell of a whack , for running an underground system that is essential for millions of people .
There is no competition , no real choice ( ok there are buses but they are dump) The roads are clogged up so people use the tube . If you sacked all that list the system would grind on per usual as it has for years .

As for the drivers , well , Until i read the list of pay rewards I thought 'robbing gits > You dont even need to steer' . Then I thought about and still think it is slightly high , but pitched to allow negotiation to double time and day off in leiu .

All the upper management will be in Davos or St Morritz , so you cant blame the drivers or their unions for wanting a nice slice of [s]taxpayers hard earned [/s] pie for themselves

DD - I'll be brief. Have no problem paying for a good service or for employees earning a lot for providing one, but....... 😉

You should write to TFL then. Maybe they need to pay their employees more. 😀

😉

The letter will be ready for when the day arrives that TFL provides me a good service. Until then....

OK pay peanuts and get monkeys is fair enough, but pay well and get monkeys doesn't quite have the same ring to it?!!?

Anyone got any actual background to this- is it just something that they've decided they want, or is it a Reaction to Some Other Bulls**t, or is it a historical thing?

FWIW I used to be offered double time plus a day in lieu for boxing day. But I told them to bugger off as I didn't think it was worth it. It's only money.

OK pay peanuts and get monkeys is fair enough, but pay well and get monkeys doesn't quite have the same ring to it?!!?

I'd say cramped and dirty trains is a management problem. Maybe they ought to get back to the shopfloor a bit instead of sitting on their fat arses in whatever corner office they've got.

Join your union, demand more, like these people do.

Or, just bitch about the ridiculous salaries of senior management and do nothing.
Then justify your apathy by turning on workers who [b]do[/b] demand a fairer pay deal.

Incredible.

OK pay peanuts and get monkeys is fair enough, but pay well and get monkeys doesn't quite have the same ring to it?!!?

I'm assuming you're not referring to the drivers then. Aside from their industrial action, and occasional quips over the intercom their contribution to the Underground Experience is largely unseen.

I'd start the blame at management, and work my way up to the government.

Looking at those figures the whole industry needs to have a damn good look at itself. The drivers are paid too much for the job and hours they do but the management are also too handsomely paid so I'm not sure how they can have the audacity to shout too loud about their drivers demands. The only looser in this is the travelling public as all that excessive remuneration either means inflated ticket prices or reduced infrastructure investment. Complacent industry in a virtual blackmail/monopoly position with its paying customer.

They need a mayor (or whoever has the power to act) with balls to overhaul the management and then a public with the stomach to handle the short-term hassle of mass driver walk outs inevitable whilst breaking the union stranglehold and imposing more sensible terms and conditions or bringing in automated trains.

convert

They need a mayor (or whoever has the power to act) with balls to overhaul the management

Its set up deliberatly so the Mayer or any other elected body has no say in it at all

DD agree with you there.

Let them strike, let them throw their toys out of the pram, we oop north dont care less, it has absolutely no effect on us.

He's worth every **** penny of it and funnily enough, the London Underground workers don't seem to want to get rid of him do they? If I was a London Underground worker, I'd be delighted to have Bob Crowe fighting my ground for me because he'd be getting me a decent wage in London, where it's bloody expensive to live, he'd be sticking it to my employers every time they tried to shaft me...again! And lastly, he pisses off people like you hora. That's worth a few days in lieu in itself.

Indeed 😀
I think it's worth noting before we put Bob on a pedestal, and for balance allow the Hora to shoot him off it in front of his family, that the strike in question has nothing to do with Bob and the RMT, but is ASLEF. So today's person of hate (or love) really should be Mick Whelan.

Oh!

😐

To be fair, I heard "strike" and just automatically assumed Crowe had something to do with it. 🙂

Oooooooh...

And WUNUNDRED!

(I never gets a wunundred).

Yeah me too 🙂 , but I decided to give it a quick google after Northwind asked the far too sensible question "Does anyone actually know anything about this?" 😀

Anyway, my defence is that I was only answering hora's question - and using it as an opportunity to abuse the round-shirking tightarse. And I'm sticking to that. 🙂

I've agreed to work on 4th January - getting double time and a day off in lieu. Should cover my strike day last month. I'm local authority, not a train driver though 🙂

Wisepranker - are you not on agenda for change rates? The day in lieu is one of your PH / Al days - the 7.5 hrs is the equivalent of the 60% but I am suprised you are taking it in time not pay. Never heard of that.

Yes, we're on AFC.
We get 7.5 hours as time in lieu for any PH's but no extra money.
We definitely don't get a day in lieu plus 7.5 hours. At least we never have as long as i've been working here.

I'm all for earning a fair wage for overtime. However, for me that's double-time. 4times is disgusting. Sorry that's not a 'fair' wage for a day is it?

Who ends up paying for these particular chaps? The underground users. Have you seen the current prices!

It is time all workers started to shout for better pay and better conditions and more time off instead of taking sh*&e from employers who are only interested in making a quick profit for themselves.

4times is disgusting.

Who says they're asking for quadruple time .........Transport for London ?

Transport for London also says on their website, quote :

[i]"The Aslef leadership has called the strike action despite the fact that only around 42 per cent of those balloted voted in favour of strike action."[/i]

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/22065.aspx

Do you believe that too ? If it was true that only 42% voted for industrial action then tfl could go to court and have the strike declared illegal. Any further industrial action by Aslef would risk them having their assets sequestrated.

Transport for London are playing games and are engaged in a propaganda exercise. Wake up.

Aslef is simply asking for quality time off for their members, and that any cover be by volunteers who should probably be given given a "substantial incentive". Otherwise no one is likely to want to do it. If I was offered double time for Boxing Day I would tell them to stuff it.

BTW I note that the Transport for London link quotes Howard Collins, London Underground's Chief Operating Officer, who according to scu98rkr's post earns £4,000 a week. I suspect Mr Collins won't be working on Boxing Day, and will instead be stuffing his face with his family.

Maybe some people should find an alternative means of getting to the Sales on Boxing Day if they are not prepared to make it worthwhile for tube drivers - can't be that difficult surely ? 💡

.

EDIT : Actually this bit in the tlf link suggests that they are not paying any extra money for Boxing Day :

[i][b]"The agreement, which specifies that overtime is only paid for unrostered work or for work attracting a higher salary, is once again being ignored by Aslef's leaders.

The union's leadership made their claims for extra pay last year"[/i][/b]

So it would appear that Boxing Day is simply "rostered work" on which no overtime is paid. I would go on strike over that.

So it would appear that Boxing Day is simply "rostered work" on which no overtime is paid. I would go on strike over that.

If my memory serves me right they negotiated a change to their T&Cs back in the 90's that meant a very significant hike in their basic in return for working bank holidays etc as normal days. I.E. the "inconvenience" of working on bank holidays etc is built into their more than generous basic pay. I don't suppose they are planning on giving that back when they are asking for the triple time plus day in lieu are they? A bit of a case of having their cake and eating it me thinks!

when they are asking for the triple time plus day in lieu

Do you believe everything tfl tells you ?

Would you believe me if I told you that tfl's chairman got elected with only a quarter of the votes ?

'cause that's true you know.

Do you believe everything tfl tells you ?

OK, if untrue I'd imagine the union must be publicising what they want somewhere, I guess the BBC and other agencies haven't bothered to pick that up....

That's missing the point though - they negotiated a higher basic wage to work bank holidays as rostered days - they are already getting paid for working on bank holidays etc as part of their basic wage. They now want to be paid for it again. Nothing wrong with asking I guess but don't be surprised when you are told no.

OK, if untrue I'd imagine the union must be publicising what they want somewhere

Have you tried their website ?

.

That's missing the point though - they negotiated a higher basic wage to work bank holidays as rostered days - they are already getting paid for working on bank holidays etc as part of their basic wage.

Actually maybe we are now getting to the point - it would appear that in fact they are not getting any extra pay for Boxing Day. Which isn't exactly how this thread started off. It's funny what you find when you start digging beneath the bullshit.

No, but to be fair I haven't tried the tfl one either - I really don't care that much, what with having my own life n'all.

I really don't care that much,

But enough to comment ?

it would appear that in fact they are not getting any extra pay for Boxing Day.

Sorry, don't follow. I guess it's down to interpretation. You interpret it as no extra as in no extra line in the January pay packet specifically mentioning boxing day 2011. I remember the original negotiation (my then GF was in London in a shared house with a driver, so I had a mild interest at the time) and think of them as being paid a very good wage with the "extra" built in to compensate for working unsociable hours/days.

the "extra" built in to compensate for working unsociable hours/days.

So no extra for Boxing Day then.

So no extra for Boxing Day then.

That's your interpretation of them getting paid extra to work unsociable hours/days - which presumably includes Boxing Day?

Yes extra.

So you are a bit thick! I'd always thought it but been too polite to say! Read what I typed again, you'll get it eventually.

Just for you (I felt guilty) I read the aslef website - "The union says its members may need ‘substantial incentives’ to volunteer." Well, that's not really denying the tfl's claim is it!

Read what I typed again

I just did. And you say that they don't get any extra whether they work Boxing Day or not.

Thanks for pointing that out.

or.... they get paid it every year, even the years they are at home with their feet up - bonustastic!

Well hora is campaigning for them to get double time for Boxing Day - what do you think of that ?

I think it sounds like a reasonable suggestion.

Lower wages for management sounds like a good idea too - do you think that suggestion would go down well with the travelling public ?

With regard to management - read my post on page 2.

Well hora is [b]campaigning[/b]

Double time for Bank holidays - well as I said above nothing wrong in asking, but as part of a grown up pay negotiation in conjunction with annual salary and other T&Cs. Sadly as neither you or I are a member of the union or tfl negotiating team we have no idea how "grown up" they have been. Striking now doesn't seem that grown up though and won't really hurt the tfl bottom line. It won't win them any friends with the travelling public though who I'd imagine will struggle to find an awful lot of empathy with them.

Thanks to Bob Crow I've just got a 5.7% rise for 2012, If it wasn't for the union we would have got hee haw! Was a 2 year deal RPI+ 0.5% for 2011 and same for 2012 based on November RPI, considering a lot of folks are on a pay freeze I have no complaints,
PJ.

It won't win them any friends with the travelling public though .......

Is that the same travelling public who think that Aslef is asking for quadruple money, thinks that only 42% voted for strike action, and are unaware that the Chairman of Transport for London only got his job because 25% of the electorate bothered voting for him, or that TFL's top management are getting over a quarter of a million pounds a year each ?

Well I suspect you might be right there.

Although this strike isn't about 'winning friends', so let's not worry too much about it eh ?

The 42%/92% bit is strange I grant you. I'm guessing the 92% is the percentage that voted that said yes and the 42% is the worst manipulation tfl can make of the figures. I'd imagine like usual the correct figure is somewhere in the middle - neither side is adverse to dirty tricks when trying to manipulate the innumerate public.

You are wrong about the winning friends bit though. In this current economic climate there will be so much political pressure for them not to cave in from the government they will need all the support from the public they can get. Cameron is as much of a sucker for a focus group as Blair.

It occurs to me that I'm getting paid for boxing day, and also the day after that and the day after that and the day after that and the day after that. Then it's the weekend, so I'm not getting paid then but I do get paid for the day after that and the day after that. Meanwhile, I will be riding my bike and eating mince pies.

So, triple time for doing some work doesn't seem so unreasonable after all- turns out [i]I'm[/i] the c***! Who knew?

I'd imagine like usual the correct figure is somewhere in the middle - neither side is adverse to dirty tricks when trying to manipulate the innumerate public.

Aslef cannot manipulate a ballot result which it has statutory obligation to carry out. Furthermore they have an legal obligation to furnish management with all the details concerning the ballot, including results, numbers involved, work place location, spoilt ballot papers, etc. Every detail will be scrutinised by management's legal department for any discrepancies which can form the basis of a legal challenge.

Looking at that list I reckon every single person on it could just about scrape by if you halved their wages...

They probably could, but they'd just piss off to somewhere where they would make more money and you'd be left with a mix of cheapo numpties who aren't wanted anywhere else and true professionals who are willing to accept worse pay because they believe in what they do.

Bob Crow could "scrape by" on half his current salary but we already agreed he's worth it, right? 😉

All the upper management will be in Davos or St Morritz

lol!

correct - figures can't be (legally)manipulated but they (and tfl) can manipulate how the figures are presented in their press releases:-

aslef - "The union balloted its 2,200 Underground drivers and they [b]returned [/b]a 92.3% vote in favour of action. " Key word there is returned. That figure is the percentage of slips [b]returned [/b]in favour of strike action not the percentage of union members in favour of strike action.

tfl - "said only 42% [b]of drivers[/b] voted to strike." In that figure they may be including all union member that failed to vote plus all non union members as not all drivers are also union members.

As said above the true figure of union members voting for strike action will be somewhere between those two figures and I'm sure will come to light if they strike/ management goes to the high court.

But this is getting off the point.

The 42%/92% bit is strange I grant you. I'm guessing the 92% is the percentage that voted that said yes and the 42% is the worst manipulation tfl can make of the figures.

There is more than one union representing tube drivers.

Aslef only represents 60% of tube drivers. Which is a higher percentage than Londoners who voted for the Chairman of Transport for London.

Democratic mandates - don't you just love'em ?

"Director of Better Routes and Places" lol what a job title

Anyway - yeah they're overpaid and making ridiculous demands but I guess you can't really blame them. It's pretty naive to suggest if every other worker follows suit and unionises + strikes etc. we'd all be better off. At best we'd just end up paying more taxes to compensate for public spending increases, at worst our export industries would become even more uncompetitive and companies would go bust and people would end up on the dole - not much point being in a union then. I know, let's all try communism...

"Director of Better Routes and Places" lol what a job title

Anyway - yeah they're overpaid and making ridiculous demands

Management ?

Not many are suggesting striking. But unionise? Yes, for sure and collectively campaign and bargain for better pay and conditions. Saying "Ah, sure it's tough times. Suck it up" is bollocks. There's only one thing that tfl senior management is sucking up and that's money. Lots of it. Like greedy little hoovers.

Imagine [i]working class[/i] people earning upwards of £40k a year. It simply cannot be so.

Anyway - yeah they're overpaid and making ridiculous demands but I guess you can't really blame them. It's pretty naive to suggest if every other worker follows suit and unionises + strikes etc. we'd all be better off. At best we'd just end up paying more taxes to compensate for public spending increases, at worst our export industries would become even more uncompetitive and companies would go bust and people would end up on the dole - not much point being in a union then. I know, let's all try communism...

I struggle with long sentences but I did read as far as

I've got no sympathy for the drivers on this particular issue, but in general support their actions- too many people here (I'm guessing largely outside the m25) feel that since they're not in a position to obtain a pay rise that everybody else should suffer.

Looking at those management salaries - some of those are absolutely obscene!

How the hell can the bosses reward themselves to such a ludicrous degree, then start bitching when the 'workers' start making demands. Though that seems absolutely indicative of things everywhere in this country at the moment.

And wasn't Boris trying to stop the Crossrail going to a PFI, and fund it centrally to reduce costs? But was slapped down by Dave? Seems to me like the whole thing is just the usual gravy train for the usual vested interests

I initially thought what a bunch of tw*ts when I read this, but looking at that list of management wages, I think f*ck the management, they have brought this on with their obscene wages, and stupid handling of all of it.
If the tube drivers can get this pay demand then good luck to them.

Looking at those management salaries - some of those are absolutely obscene!

Swerving the politics - I think since the tube strikes the other year there are more commuting clyclists in London - and more have gone all weather from fair weather.....

I now suspect Evan's and CycleSurgery are in league with the unions.......questions must be asked......

Well, to be honest I can't see how anyone warrants a salary of £850,000. Perhaps you could explain to me what he (and it'll certainly be a 'he') does that justifies that?

And this one really makes me laugh

Vernon Everitt, Managing Director, Group Marketing and Communications: £230,310

Yip... Marketing an organisation that basically has a captive market with no real competition. Yeah... sounds like a killer of a job that. How on earth are we going to get people to use this 'tube' thing? Anyone any ideas? It'll have to be some pretty revolutionary stuff!!!

Gerald Duffy, Director of Employee Relations, London Underground: £174,067

Clearly earning his keep - How many strikes in the past few years.

Gerald Duffy, Director of Employee Relations, London Underground: £174,067

Bob Crow and his £133,138 annual package in that list ?

If Bob Crow were paid the same as Gerald Duffy, would there be more strikes or fewer?

Yeah! Right on comrade! Rise up against the fascist bastards! Ruthlessly oppressing their enslaved minions. The poor sods desperately scraping by on 50 grand a year! Throw off your chains brothers!!!

How the hell can the bosses reward themselves to such a ludicrous degree, then start bitching when the 'workers' start making demands.

You've got a rubber arm, binners!

I made the first comment before I read the management salaries. Which are frankly ludicrous IMHO! What kind of example are they setting for wage restraint? How on earth can they pay themselves that and expect a strogly unionised workforce not to say "we'll have a bit of that too". Its ridiculous!

Now.... can you now explain to me why Rob Holden, the Chief Executive of Crossrail deserves a salary of £850,000 PA. Nearly two and a half grand a day FFS! 😯

I'm all ears.....

I have to admit, Ive never been a member of a union and dont agree with their tactics in this, but the management team are stupidly overpaid as I see it.
Thus the union sees clearly there is money going spare.

Can we all just calm down and agree that their all overpaid!

Its just that some are actually paid to drive the gravy train.

I made the first comment before I read the management salaries. Which are frankly ludicrous IMHO! What kind of example are they setting for wage restraint? How on earth can they pay themselves that and expect a strogly unionised workforce not to say "we'll have a bit of that too". Its ridiculous!

An example? Think there's been a management pay freeze for a while, and a few of the top management haven't been picking up their bonuses for the last couple of years, including Hendy. See, we're all in this etc etc.

Those salaries pale in comparison to Network Rail, btw.

I made the first comment before I read the management salaries.

You're so easily swayed by emotion, binners. Nae steel, man!

Sorry Konabunny. I forgot where I was for a while. I now realise that as its STW I needed to start from an entrenched position, then repeat it more forcefully, ad nauseum, possibly with some spurious Googled links to support my position.

I did get one bit right though. It was uninformed. Its a start 😉

I now realise that as its STW I needed to start from an entrenched position, then repeat it more forcefully, ad nauseum, possibly with some spurious Googled links to support my position.

That's what I like to hear, man! Good for you!

To put the 42% claim into perspective, around 23% of the electorate voted conservative at the last election. Now, who's our prime minister?

Wage demands come down to the strength of negotiation avaialble on either side. In most industries, the employer has the upper hand. I guess that's why you lot are so jealous. I only wish that Crow was my union leader...I reckon he earns every penny of his salary.

Can we all just calm down and agree that their all overpaid!

No I can't agree with that.

£45k for doing a vital job which regularly involves starting work long before most people have even thought of getting out of bed and finishing long after most have got home, plus working weekends, and in which thousands of people's safety is your responsibility, does not represent being "overpaid" imo.

£45k is an excellent salary which reflects the responsibility and all year round unsociable hours which come with the job. But to suggest that a tube driver working the day after Christmas Day deserves no extra money because it's no different to any Saturday or Sunday, is frankly taking the piss.

Tube drivers are well paid, but that fact should be celebrated rather than condemned. Because despite trying for the last thirty years a low wage economy does not deliver results. The reason why Britain, the Eurozone, and the US, for example, are in such dire economic straits is [i]precisely[/i] because of the constant drive for lower wages.

Since the neoliberals started setting the agenda 30 years ago wages as a percentage of GDP have fallen whilst the rich have got richer and, unsurprisingly, the poor poorer.

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/dec/05/income-inequality-growing-faster-uk ]Income inequality growing faster in UK than any other rich country, says OECD[/url]

To deal with the paradox of overproduction/underconsumption the neoliberals had a "solution"........easy credit. Capitalism needs working people not only to produce goods and services, but also to act as consumers for goods and services.

Despite their vast economic power the effect of the stinking rich on the market is negligible. Overwhelmingly, the market exists to service the needs of ordinary working people. Provide them easy credit to buy what they need/are told they need, whilst keeping their wages low, and that gives them the purchasing power which Capitalism demands of them.

Only it doesn't work ..... as the credit-fuelled boom/crises has clearly proved. Globally.

What we need is less concentration of wealth in the hands of the few and more wealth distributed among ordinary working people, ie, less inequality, not more - which is what we're getting at the present.

[url= http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/roubini43/English ]The Instability of Inequality[/url]

The tube drivers are doing their bit towards achieving this, Transport for London management isn't.

Low paid tube drivers dependent on easy credit or, living austere lives, is not the answer. A living wage and full employment is.

To repeat, join your union!

If you want to do something about every company's "obscene" pay for senior management you have to strengthen the union WHERE YOU WORK.

Or, you can continue to tut, carp and complain but remain apathetic - that'll help get us out of this mess.

Sorry to disagree with you Feefoo, but I think the only way to tackle obscene executive pay in some companies is to break the strangle hold of shareholder groups, all looking after each other.

it would be down to shareholders to stop the high pay awards.
Problem is the shareholders are wanting the companies they hold shares in to back them up in their executive pay deals.

Union power will not stop the cycle IMO

Union power will not stop the cycle IMO

Not necessarily true. Trade unions are very much involved in the battle against growing income inequality and the introduction of measures such as remuneration committees and legally binding maximum wage ratios. If an employer had to automatically increase the wages of all its employees to maintain maximum wage ratio, then they would start thinking twice about awarding excessive wages rises to senior managers.

Can we all just calm down and agree that their all overpaid!

No.

Can we instead all agree that many other professions are [i]underpaid[/i]?

I think it's great that tube drivers are paid a decent wage and have fairly decent employment conditions. So it bloody should be. They're vitally important to the running of one of the World's leading centres of commerce and finance.

And it's especially great that things like this really make the bottoms of Little England itch. 😀

Scratch scratch scratch careful you'll make it bleed...

Honestly you lot really need a reality check. WHERE do you think the money comes from????

Relative ton their skills and ability tube drivers are OVERPAID. If you paid everyone with that level of skill and ability with that wage the country would go bankrupt!

All that is happening is ...well yes Mr Crow is doing an excellent job by holding the country to Ransom. What you fail to understand is that this is at the expense of the rest of the population, i.e. taxpayers. That extra money could have invested in better infrastructure or employed another person.

There is a case that people at the top are overpaid, that is a different issue.

People should be paid relative to their skills and abilities. In this respect tube drivers are overpaid although not quite to the same excesses as the directors and senior managers. We can't all be paid the same and I agree the ratio between senior managers and shop floor workers is too high. However even if you reduce the ratio it still would not compensate to allow equivalent workers to be paid the same as tube drivers.

Fair enough if they can get it. Just remember that in doing so it unfairly penalises the general tax paying public.

Frodo - Member

well yes Mr Crow is doing an excellent job by holding the country to Ransom. What you fail to understand

Remind us what it's got to do with Bob Crow again?

Remind us what it's got to do with Bob Crow again?

I'd laugh but as you know Northwind, I can't really. 🙂

Why not? Fear of sharting?