[Closed] TT safety V F1 safety

135mph* on two wheels on public roads on a 33 mile lap. This is always going to be a very dangerous game, take away the danger and a lot of the challenge and appeal goes too - these people do not have the same mind set as multi-millionaire F1 drivers

*average

Yes they do - novice TT riders have compulsory inductions and are absolutely informed about what they are undertaking .
F1 has big money behind it and a miniscule driver list so can influence in
very specific ways - rules and changes to tracks.

There could not really be a bigger contrast really - you could ride in the TT
you will never drive in an F1 race.

They do plenty. As well as above you take your own risks. Your life is your responsibility, especially in this sort of case where a) you don't have to be there and b) the throttle works both ways.

You can make a car into one huge safety device without ruining the car, a motorbike not so much. Every rider knows what the consequences are so it's up to them whether they do it or not. If spectators start getting killed (like what happened to Group B) then it'll be unacceptable.

TT is the last outpost for modern, balls on the line Gladiatorial combat. It's what makes it so compelling. As long as the riders have total respect for each other' safety and don't do stupid riding then let them crack on.

You cannot really compare the two.

Can't compare the 2 at all. One is a very safe sport that plays the danger card to try and keep punters watching. The other is dangerous and good for it. Too much of the world is sanitised today

People race bikes because they're dangerous.

Surely, you can compare the two? Wasn't that the OP's point?

They're both different motorsports and both events carry a different level of risk. Discuss.

The TT is possibly the last true global "amatuer" motorsport event -it has no connection at any level with F1 which is now something akin to "celebrities in fast cars" and I am not deriding the skill or (limited) risk in F1. You ride the TT with no expectation of a cotton wool environment - it's not the Guy Martins and John Mcguiness that make the TT it's the dozens of amatuer clubman with a fraction of the budget and an equal amount of balls who ride there every year and are only a few mph behind the superstars, I doubt relativley speaking there is a faster human being on the planet on any machine who can hold a candle to the top 5 in the TT, I have ridden the island on mad Sunday back in the day, and these guys are truly remarkable I would buy all of them beer all night anywhere and I wouldn't give Lewis Hamilton the time of day in comparison

Was chatting to a mate's dad tonight who has4marshalled at the TT for decades and in response to the op, he told me after complaining to the travelling Marshall a few years back about a potentially dangerous change to the course on the mountain (some new fence posts installed exactly where some riders habitually clipped the verge), was accused of wanting to turn the TT into Donington Park. A rider a few inches off line clipped said fence post with his head and was killed instantly, recorded as a racing accident at the inquest. Even years later, the bloke (a staunch Pure Roads supporter) is still upset by what happened and just goes to highlight the unique nature of the TT.

I've been away from the TT and road racing for years but it's still very very special to me. Still got ex racing colleagues who go, I'd love to get back there or to the Irish races.

Road racing is where F1 was in the 60s. The bikes are too fast for the circuits and competitors and fans accept death as the norm. "He died doing what he loved".
Eventually there will be a massive tragedy or a death toll that becomes inexcusable and it'll have to be sanitised.

Due to various bad accidents over the past few years, rallying has been forced to improve its attitude to safety and limiting where spectators can go to watch. I really fear for its future as the future competitors/marshals/organisers turn up to the "excellent views of the action" which are actually pretty rubbish and it puts them off. A large percentage of people I know have given up with it.

I think all Motorsport will go this way in the near future and it's only a matter of time before the TT etc is looked at in the same way.

It will only end, if there aren't enough riders that want to undertake the challenge and/or there aren't enough spectators anymore?
I can't see either of those happening anytime soon, thankfully!
It's THE major event on the Island and brings in thousands of people and millions of pounds each year, and being a 'British Protectorate' they can more or less do what they want to?
The safety aspect has certainly increased over the years, from what I've seen over the years since I first went 38 years ago until now.
The one thing you can't change significantly are the roads, they are arguablely amongst the best maintained in the world, but the stone wall, earth banks and trees etc.
I want to go back again in two years time if I can 😀

"He died doing what he loved"

That always strikes me as a very strange thing to say - 'he loved sliding down the road at 100+mph, with one second to see the brick wall he was just about to hit.'

It should be more like he died whilst taking part in the sport he loved.

I have a friend who has raced it for years, now he only does the classic races, as, he has now realised, he is just not sharp enough to control the bikes any more. He had a near fatal crash 4 years ago, and said then that was the end of his racing, but he has since got back into it.
Not anyone can enter - you have to be pretty good to get in. Lots of pre-entry races need to be completed at a reasonable level.

The thing that I struggle to understand with my risk-averse, life-is-precious viewpoint, is that you could transplant the track somewhere else but remove the drystone walls, the fences etc and replace them with run offs, gravel traps and tyre barriers. The speed, skill, finesse required to win would be the same. It would be the same race with a fraction of the danger.

Clearly I'm missing some point or other. But the trade off is way too big for me to understand why people put themselves in that sort of danger.

Go on then Superficial - find them somewhere 33 miles long with run offs, gravel traps and tyre barriers......
Oh and the elevation changes, camber, jumps, etc......

here's my POV, as I say I do like to watch it a lot more than I do F1, I just find it a lot more exciting, but every year some one is killed and with that brings a life changing event for friends and family, if this were to happen in F1 then I think changes would be made, its a sport at the end of the day,

I don't know how the organisers could change it to make it safer with out making it dull but I do feel there has been to many lives lost, I think now the bikes are to fast for the course, average lap speed of 133mph and doing 200mph at certain points on the course is mind blowing
I think to be a rider there you have to be very brave and skill full. and also extremely selfish, I see it time and again where they say he died doing what he loved, Im sure the next of kin would say he loved doing it but I didn't want him to die doing it,

I cant get my head around risking my life when I have a wife kids mum dad gran etc.

I love riding my mountain bike, but I would not do it if I thought there was a chance I was going to die doing it, yes there is a chance I might come of but knowing me id only be doing 20-25 mph so a lot less risk
both F1 and the TT are at the edge of motor sport, F1 because of the tech involved in the cars, and the TT because of the nature of the course and the speed

what I would like to see is F1 more exciting to watch and the TT made safer, maybe both sports should have a look at each other and see if there is any thing they could do

I think the TT could improve safety while not ruining the event. For instance are haybales, and exposed marshalls really the best they can come up with in the modern era?

hammyuk

Go on then Superficial - find them somewhere 33 miles long with run offs, gravel traps and tyre barriers......
Oh and the elevation changes, camber, jumps, etc......

Even if they could find somewhere or build somewhere it wouldn't be the same. The spectator's proximity to the bikes, and the bikes to walls, banks etc amplifies the impression of speed and it's all part of the spectacle.

An F1 car doing 190mph down the straight at Monza looks controlled. The same speed on the Sulby straight reminds of those wing suit guys flying through gaps in rock formations.

Cameron Donald has the perfect analogy 'Track/circuit racing is like rock climbing with a rope' 'Road racing is like rock climbing without a rope'.

The TT is what it is, if the riders don't like it, then don't ride it. They all know what they are taking on and the risks.

How can you make the TT safer without fundamentally changing what it is? Put padding on every wall, lamp post and building over a 37 mile length?

Its not just the TT though it is road racing in general. Look at Simon Andrews RIP and Malachi Mitchell Thomas RIP at the NW200, Guy martins big spill at the ulster and Billy Redmayne RIP at scarborough and also dont forgot that Joey Dunlop, as good a rider as he was, was killed riding a 250cc machine.

The other thing is that many of the top riders have a point they are prepared to push to - maybe 90% of what they could do. They don't ride beyond the point of control. Put in more safety measures, will the riders then push upto 100% and beyond their maximum point of control? I reckon if this was the case, there would be alot more accidents at the TT, and therefore, potentially, more deaths.

The thing that I struggle to understand with my risk-averse, life-is-precious viewpoint, is that you could transplant the track somewhere else but remove the drystone walls, the fences etc and replace them with run offs, gravel traps and tyre barriers. The speed, skill, finesse required to win would be the same. It would be the same race with a fraction of the danger.

Clearly I'm missing some point or other. But the trade off is way too big for me to understand why people put themselves in that sort of danger.

Doing dangerous stuff is a basic drive. TT riders just have the upper end of that drive.

Yes, the TT is dangerous, but it is what it is. Everybody there knows the risks, and it's not like you can rock up and have a go.
There's a chance you could die riding your bike, admittedly its much smaller, but you still ride your bike.

I don't have a problem with folk doing dangerous stuff. I look at tt riders, free climbers and wingsuit flyers with great respect knowing I have made different choices and could not do it even if I had the skill to attempt it. My issue comes when those putting their life on the line feel pressurised to do so (or push harder than they should) by sponsors or in pursuit of life changing financial gain. I'm thinking of events like Redbull rampage that feels to me that it might have crossed that line. There should only be one voice in the head of anyone weighing up if such risks are justified and as soon as money gets in there too stupid things happen.

There again, [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/36386227 ]if this lawsuit is successful[/url] in F1 where safety is taken pretty seriously I would have thought the insurers of the TT would be taking a big gulp before underwriting future events. There is plenty that the IOM TT could do to make death more avoidable (it's just not financially practical or desirable) so I can't see they would have a leg to stand on in such a case.

Yes, the TT is dangerous, but it is what it is. Everybody there knows the risks, and it's not like you can rock up and have a go.

The riders might, but do the marshals and spectators standing in close proximity. Already we've seen 2 marshals injured this year and spectators have been killed in the past. To me it just feels as though the organisers aren't doing enough to reduce risk.

To me it just feels as though the organisers aren't doing enough to reduce risk

Its road racing, there will always be trees, traffic lights, walls houses etc... You could go circuit racing, but thats just not the same.

Motorsport is dangerous, it says so on the back of the ticket.
Riders, marshalls and spectators know this and attend on the basis that accidents will happen, but no one is being forced to go.

Chew

What do you suggest?

Easy, restrict the bikes.

Restrict the power or power/weight, make them focus on frame, handling, tyres, brakes.

Then when lap speeds are back up where they were, restrict the power again.

It's been done before in other motor sports.

And FWIW, having ridden most of the course (not during TT week!) and watched on bike footage and so on, theres masses that *could* be done to the course too.

But then you get into silly/expensive things like turning peoples front gardens into gravel traps.

There are sports that are WAY more dangerous than competing in the TT yet no one wants to ban them or remove most of the risk. High altitude mountaineering, technical diving (mixed gas, rebreather stuff), BASE jumping etc. The TT is pretty safe in comparison!

Restricting the bikes wouldnt make any difference. Theres as many incidents on the smaller bikes as the bigger bikes.

"What tyres for the STW Nanny State....." 🙄

ghostlymachine - Member

Restrict the power or power/weight, make them focus on frame, handling, tyres, brakes.

Then when lap speeds are back up where they were, restrict the power again.

It's been done before in other motor sports.

You're going to encourage the teams to try and increase corner speeds then? And that would be safer??

In respect to restricting power John Mcguinnes still holds the 250 lap record of about 118 mph and that was quite a few years ago on a bike that was probably only producing 75 bhp and tyres etc have improved significantly in that time - in reality you might find that smaller bikes carry more speed on certain sections and hitting a stone wall at 150 v 180 is academic- improving the road surface improves safety but that's about all they have to improve

hammyuk

"What tyres for the STW Nanny State....."

Okay so what's the acceptable annual death toll limit for the TT?
Probably about five competitors a year? Three marshals? Three male spectators and maybe two children? That sound about right?

Personally I'm ambivalent about it. I think people should be allowed (within reason) to do what they want, but I don't think death should be an acceptable reality of a major spectator sport.

The thing that I struggle to understand with my risk-averse, life-is-precious viewpoint, [b]is that you could transplant the track somewhere else but remove the drystone walls, the fences etc and replace them with run offs, gravel traps and tyre barriers.[/b] The speed, skill, finesse required to win would be the same. It would be the same race with a fraction of the danger.
Clearly I'm missing some point or other. But the trade off is way too big for me to understand why people put themselves in that sort of danger.

The locals, and all the thousands of spectators that go to the isle of man, love the TT. They are all aware of the risks and dangers of it, and are happy to accept them.
If your not, don't go.
Stop being upset for other people, and risk ruining something that many other people love dearly.

[i]You are missing the point. Our mums told us motorbikes were dangerous. That was why we bought motorbikes.[/i]

And like bicycles, they are basically unstable; ie they fall over unless they are moving.

And I LOVE all forms of two-wheels even though I sold my last bike after +30 years of riding (only had one for the last 10 years for commuting, and don't have a commute any more).

and nothing on a motorcycle beats going flat-out up the mountain from Ramsey, chased by an RC30 🙂

I would have thought the insurers of the TT would be taking a big gulp before underwriting future events.

What insurance do they have?

Please please just let people do stuff - if you are worrying then ...
which would you stop

this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-36412881

or this - has far more mileage in discussion:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-36413124

The TT is one thing, essentially a time trial. The short course stuff is crazy (NW200, Sothern 100) as they are mass start events.

This is a good documentary http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3546370/

are the riders selfish, I think we all agree they are very brave and talented, but do you think they give a thought about there next of kin, I think I couldn't do it, I can ride a bike but no where near that fast but even if I could I don't think for me personally I would risk checking out of this life early for it

What insurance do they have?

I would be amazed if they don't have event insurance. It was certainly a stipulation to organising a triathlon (3rd party, volunteers and competitors liability) so it would be incredible if you didn't have to have the same for a motorised event.

Go on then. Find somewhere in the world, with exactly the same characteristics and geography, but without the buildings, walls etc. Let us know how you get on;

🙄
Do you know what an analogy is?

My point is that the danger is not a by-product of the race. It's not simply unfortunate that the best race track in the world (is it?) is flanked by life-threatening obstacles. You could (in my ANALOGY) have the same race on an identically-curvy bit of tarmac but have run-offs and grandstands instead of drystone walls and lamposts. Who would watch it?

Danger is the very essence of the TT, without the potential for death it would be a completely different sport. It's not about skill or speed or engineering (though obviously those things are required. But at the top of a vaguely-even playing field, it comes down to how close to death people are willing to go to post a fast time. And that's weird for me.

Read this.
[img] [/img]

Ordered. Like the sound of that.

The speed, skill, finesse required to win would be the same. It would be the same race with a fraction of the danger.

If you did replicate the track but with run off, no walls/trees etc, then you simply wouldn't get people wanting to do it. On a sanitised version of the TT I doubt McGuiness etc would be anything like as fast Rossi etc.

The whole point of road racing (and other properly dangerous sports) is that it is pushing the limit, knowing that if you go that step too far, death is a big reality.

That is why many of the big track riders simply will not do road racing as they do not have the mental capacity to deal with knowing that one mistake could equal death.

As to car rallying, yep people died, and yes it got a bit silly, but now that sport is pretty dead in comparison to what it used to be an international level. At least at national level you can still go and spectate at in a forest, inches from a car doing 100mph.

[img] [/img]

Mat Oxley is, as ever, fantastic on the subject;

[url= http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/road-racing/isle-man-tt ]Linky[/url]

Five deaths so far this year...

I have loved watching it so far, but that's 5 lives lost and prob 5 family's in a total state of bereavement
how many more before something has to change, 5 lives lost in F1 in a week of racing and I doubt there would be another race till something was done

[i]5 lives lost in F1 in a week of racing and I doubt there would be another race till something was done [/i]

Are you going to stop folk climbing Everest too?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/25/mount-everest-climbers-death-toll-rises-to-five/

From having a quick look it doesn't look like any of the folk killed had to be there? It wasn't their livelihood, and they all knew the risks involved

It's all subjective. The current generation (in the UK, and other highly developed countries) has been spoilt rotten in mortality terms. No mass casualty wars for a generation, road traffic deaths and violent crime death at an all time low, modern medicine able to preserve and prolong life like never before.

Obviously this is mostly a good thing, but it has sensitised people to loss of life; it's tragic when someone dies, but only for the immediate loved ones. It's terribly sad for the people that knew the dead person, and it's a little sad/morbidly interesting for everyone else, especially if the death was unusual or particularly nasty.

Five young men dying doing something that they love, whilst being fully conversant with the risks falls firmly into the 'ah that's a bit of a shame' category for everyone but the dead chap's friends and family. All this hand wringing is a little bit OTT, IMHO.

There are strong parallels between this discussion and the issues around euthanasia; as in it comes down to whether you value quality or quantity of life more highly.

5 deaths? Blimey.

I am on the fence on this one. I do like the unique challenge that the TT represents and the riders are without doubt something very special. But the continued bleating of the TT fans saying that the risk is something that should stay there and that it would just be sanitised if anything was changed reminds me of the attitude in Motorsports in the 50/60's. Safety was increased massively in Motorsport over the next few decades, and to a great extent it is still just as exciting to compete and watch - people put F1 up as an example of safety gone too far but people have still died in recent years so the risk is still there, not in small part to the crazy performance a lot of cars have.

I really do think there are measures that could be taken in the TT which might save lives but not take away from the mentalness that it has. If those measures cut deaths by even a small amount it would be worth it.

What measures? I think there will be a point that the super bikes are stopped, or restricted, but on the whole there is not that much you can really do to the course.

For the sidecars (they are just crazy), I do think they should use to a restricted, bigger engine to reduce the number of blown engines.

to reduce the number of blown engines.

Five young men

It's good to know 58 is young.

For what it's worth, I'm not hand-wringing about this, but I thought it had been a long, long time since there were 5 fatalities at the TT.

Think I have already said this on another thread about restricting power, the 250cc lap record set in 1996? Is 118mph at the time I think the lap record was around 124mph bear in mind a 250 was giving maybe 75bhp less than half of the super bikes back then yet only 5mph slower due to the significantly increased corner speed of a lighter bike- reduce the power and the teams will look to increase corner speed and hence increase risk as most of the IOM is 4,5,6 gear corners (the 100bhp twins are doing a 128mph?) You would have to put them all back on 125s to make a differance
This year was the first time someone was killed who I knew personally (Ian Bell) and he was an unassuming family man I am not sure how is son Carl will get over this one but they knew what they were doing.

Its the high risk that draws the riders to it. Sanitise it and the draw isn't there anymore. But, how do you sanitise a 37.75 mile circuit? Six people died during the TT in 1970, where the senior was won with average laps of 101 mph. Five died in 1951, where av lap speeds were ~92 mph. The number of deaths per year has not shown an upward trend since 1950, despite the lap record increasing by 40 mph average. So would restricting the bikes actually do anything? I bet if you plot number of deaths , since 1950, against lap times, there is no correlation. The only way to sanitise the race is to remove the things that kill at any speed ie walls, lamp posts, buildings etc. This is unfeasable. If it could be done, the event then becomes like any other race, and as i said earlier, the draw has gone.

Yes, four people have died on the mountain circuit this year ( and one in the pre tt classic) but this is not significant when you look at the history. The TT is what it is, the risks are known by the riders and they are willing to take the risk. To me, the TT is one of those things that hasnt been swallowed up by the cotton wool nanny state that we live in and gives people, who are brave and courageous enough, an opportunity to test themselves. So hats off the the Isle of Man and the riders for continuing to 'stick it to the man'.

EDIT - as previously mentioned in another post, Everest has killed more people in a shorter time period. Everest = 280 people since 1922. IOMTT = 252 people since 1907. Where are the people saying that climbing everest should be stopped? What about all the sherpas that are killed on Everest? They aren't there for the thrill and aren't risk takers but are simply trying to make a living.

I think v8ninety hits it on the head, death is no longer common place compared to first half of the 20th century so when you see five lives lost in the pursuit of pleasure it unsettles our current sensibilities. We don't need anymore IOM type events but we must not loose this thing (and the NW200 etc) to satisfy the moral majority.

The riders talk about the furniture on the course. I.e. the immovable objects. These things seem to define a lot of the limitations and along with the truly bumpy sections define the areas of the track where time can be won and lost. Thesecond athletes are out to find a limit, their will is to extract maximum performance from their kit against said track on the day in question.

It isn't beyond me to see them banning the superbikes in years to come. A la group b. Similar advances directed towards and focusing on the suspension and handling of the bikes,budgets being spent on link arms, shocks and rebound stability instead of èking hp out. It would be safer. A stable less powerful bike which requires to be driven through the course rather than an overpowered bike which needs nursed/featherleighted round the circuit.

Hutchy is more refined. Within the limits of the bike meets course combo. Rather calculated and germanic in his efficiency and calculated nature. Dunlop is a true road rider,fourth generation, and his style is indicative of dancing on that line between machine and it's interface with the terra firma. Dunlop will always be faster on a machine which has too much for the course, it appears he has an instinctiveness and raw understanding of machine and race track combined with the mental acuity to hold it together for 120minutes of complete clarity and flow.

In my opinion,leave the challenge there. Let them come,let them try. Let them die. Who are we to deny people the opportunity to expose themselves to the rawness of the tt race. It's a real race, it is how it has always been, let them come and race.

The superbikes are only marginally quicker than the stock bikes. So how do you ban a bike, that i could go out and buy off the shelf, and ride over the un restricted speed limit mountain mile? It is the nature of the course, not the bikes, that kills

It is the nature of the riders application of machine to course that kills.

I think the superbikes are where the pinnacle of the challenge lies. They have too much power for the irregularities of the road surface without the electronic jigpockery the superstocks have to smoothly get that hp down. It takes a true talent to be up above 133 on them.

The course is a stalwart of the bike road racing circuit/community. The circuit and race are not going anywhere. Local industry revolves around this week of the year and the buzz on the island is electric. You can't change the course. All that will alter is gradual changes in the homologation to encourage focus of future development on suspension and traction control etc

Castanea, i totally agree with you. What i am saying is that if you hit a lamp post at 100 mph on a 250cc, you will die, if you hit the same lamp post at 150 mph on a super bike, you will die. There are two ways to change this - 1) remove the lamp post ( which can't/won't happen) or 2) reduce the probability of coming off and hitting the lamp post. It is point number two that future development must focus upon - but how do you factor in all of the huge number of variables around a 37 mile circuit in suspension setup for example?

Mmm yes. Inevitably due to the wide variance in the road surface and thus huge parameters to calculate into suspension set up, at no one point in the lap will the setup be perfect for the bumps and terrain at that moment.

Maybe intelligent traction control and a balanced and predictable tune that the rider understands the boundaries of and can work within is the most refined it can ever be. Or...perhaps on board adjustment of brake balance and dampening which the rider can manipulate throughout the lap would allow progress towards refinement. Albeit at the expense of some mental processing power from the rider.

Whichever setup is presented and however many precautions are put in place it will always be the riders prerogative to lean against that line to extract the best possible performance from any circumstances. Gladiatorial spirit and ego fuelled will to gamble with confidence at the limit defines the champions of these contests. You can't shield against that, I can only observe and admire.

You can tweak all you want. However, whilst you have human beings racing machines at silly speeds inches away from immovable objects, on a track that would mentally exhaust Einstein, riders will die. Humans (esp when close to the limit) make mistakes. Road courses quite often punish mistakes with death.

The riders know this, and do it anyway. Don't change a thing; you'd break it.

But the continued bleating of the TT fans saying that the risk is something that should stay there and that it would just be sanitised if anything was changed reminds me of the attitude in Motorsports in the 50/60's.

Regarding the calls above for limits on Superbikes, two of those who died this year were on sidecars.