[Closed] Trust in kids

Completely agree and especially in the UK I'd certainly not approach 2 teenage girls.

A spokesperson for ScotRail said: "We are assisting British Transport Police with this investigation."

also a bit disturbing ... I'd say they had a crap enough night without facing prosecution.

Lots that doesn't add up about that story. 12 year old girls don't fall asleep on trains when playing with mates. They certainly don't go out without a mobile phone between them.

My shout is that the girls wanted a overnight train adventure, probably after seeing someone doing it on TikTok.

I expect that is right they were mucking about but 12 year olds should be ok on a train without an adult, it shouldn't be unusual, we should all look out for them not call the police.

Any adults who saw two 12-year-olds getting off a train on their own should have questioned that.”

The general assumption is that kids are all packing smart phones these days and that, as a result, their parents either know where they are or are able to establish their whereabouts in seconds.

The failure here is on the part of the train company who didn't check the carriage properly.

As far as the public challenging them goes.....Any adult male who approached two unaccompanied 12 year old girls in a train station, however innocently, would be opening themselves up to a whole world of trouble.

I wouldn't do it and that's a more damning indictment of our modern society than anything else.

I was travelling all over London, on buses, from about the age of 8, unaccompanied. I was travelling to school by Tube, from 11. Us kids were scooting about on our bikes, all over, from a very young age. Kids like to have adventures. Most don't come to any harm at all.

Our society is making it far too hard for people to become independent.

But surely, being 'independent' means being free-willed, and free thinking? We can't possibly have that.

The issue I do have is that Scotrail staff (who have previous on this in my experience) refused to let minors onto a train. There is a training need and judgement here.

+1 on the kids not quite telling the whole story here.

+1 on the kids not quite telling the whole story here.

Possibly not but prosecution ???

Not sure I would. Also kids much younger than that were getting about on trains in Berlin when I was there a few years ago.
Our society is making it far too hard for people to become independent.

In Japan, as a right of passage, they have much, much younger kids, around 6, go out by themselves to get some shopping - and this is in the middle of Tokyo.

There's a show about child development around the world on Apple TV, that showed how ridiculously coddled Anglosphere kids were. There was a bit where some 7-8 year old Malay kids were running their own freediving fishing trips and then it cut to the American kid of the same age trying to decide what gender clothes to choose.

If I saw two girls of that sort of age (I couldn't know the exact age, but those two could pass for young teenagers) I wouldn't think anything of them getting on a train. I was using public transport unaccompanied at a younger age than that and it certainly isn't anything unusual.

But surely, being ‘independent’ means being free-willed, and free thinking? We can’t possibly have that.

Pre-lockdown my son's mate often stopped over in Woking after cycling and then got the trains and tube back to Highgate. Mine's now 11 and I'd not think twice about sending him off to his grans in Lancs with the train and bus fares.

The failure here is on the part of the train company who didn’t check the carriage properly.

That's certainly looking like the way this story is headed. If they had hidden in a library / school / other public place and got locked in, would the person responsible for locking the doors be in trouble?

It doesn't really sound like anything especially nefarious has happened. Two girls who were probably clowning around got stuck somewhere for a few hours. I'm not sure why its news really. Must've been awful for the parents, though.

For anyone interested - this is the series

https://www.thereviewgeek.com/becomingyou-s1review/

If they had hidden in a library / school / other public place and got locked in, would the person responsible for locking the doors be in trouble?

I live at the other end of that same train line. Hiding on one of those trains really isn't feasible if someone checking at the end of the night walks the length of the carriage.

They certainly don’t go out without a mobile phone between them.

Not every kid is like this, my 14 year old has a smartphone with long charge and unlimited minutes/data. She leaves it at home all the time and it drives me bloody mad.

I’m not sure why its news really.

It's news (in a good way) because the statistics on the fate of missing young people (after 12/24h) are pretty terrible. If I saw two 12yo getting off a train together I would not bat an eyelid. Probably more to it, but no harm seems to have been done - other than to their parents' state of mind.

Not sure I would. Also kids much younger than that were getting about on trains in Berlin when I was there a few years ago.

I don't think it would look peculiar in non-Covid times in Helensburgh/Dumbarton/Balloch either. However, if this was the "last train" its presumably something like 11pm which would be a bit more unusual. More surprising though would be that I assume there was a local appeal for information (as there usually is when a teenager doesn't come home) and nobody remembered seeing them get on the train...

also a bit disturbing … I’d say they had a crap enough night without facing prosecution.

I assumed it was more the question - how do kids get locked on a train (which IIRC doesn't even have toilets on it to hide in). Although - I'm also a bit surprised that two twelve year olds facing a night trapped on a train couldn't work the break glass to open the doors!

Possibly not but prosecution ???

It doesn't say prosecution. It says investigation. The two are totally different things.

Lots that doesn’t add up about that story. 12 year old girls don’t fall asleep on trains when playing with mates. They certainly don’t go out without a mobile phone between them.

They didn't go out without a mobile phone, they had one, the battery died. That's not at all unusual for a 12 yr old!

My shout is that the girls wanted a overnight train adventure, probably after seeing someone doing it on TikTok.

Is that a thing? or just some assumption that if 12 yr old girls do something stupid it must be because they saw it on tiktok - because 12yr olds were doing stupid shit in the 1980's (and I assume before then). My guess is because they didn't have a ticket they panicked and tried not to be seen when the conductor/driver did their walk through before leaving the train, without realising that they were about to be locked inside.

It’s news (in a good way) because the statistics on the fate of missing young people (after 12/24h) are pretty terrible.

Its news because its a slightly weird story. I don't think the stats on missing 12yr olds (especially when there are two of them) are quite as scary as you think. I'd say that there is a "police looking for information about ..." story for a 12-18 yr old missing here on Facebook etc once a month or so. Most actually end up with a note added 24-48 hrs later saying "Police have confirmed that they were found safe and well." My understanding is most of them are staying at some "friends" house.

I assumed it was more the question – how do kids get locked on a train (which IIRC doesn’t even have toilets on it to hide in).

Same thing though ?
How is it the train company's responsibility to look for kids hiding on a train?

My guess is because they didn’t have a ticket they panicked and tried not to be seen when the conductor/driver did their walk through before leaving the train, without realising that they were about to be locked inside.

that was my thought but as i said they had a pretty crap night... I can't see any point in a legal investigation though the insurers for Scotrail might have one?

It's almost like the media aren't content with a good news story!

How is it the train company’s responsibility to look for kids hiding on a train?

What if it hadn't been two kids but some 50 year old guy who'd had a stroke or a heart attack and was lying slumped on the floor between the seats?

It must be a standard procedure to check a train at the end of a shift to make sure that there isn't anything on board that shouldn't be there.

There isn't anywhere to hide on those trains unless the carriage is only viewed from one end.

What if it hadn’t been two kids but some 50 year old guy who’d had a stroke or a heart attack and was lying slumped on the floor between the seats?

how is that different to the same guy getting off the train, going to the car parked close by and having a stroke or a heart attack in his car?

My 12-yr old used to regularly catch the train from Stirling to Alloa with his friends to go skateboarding (before lockdown stopped such activities).

Then he'd text home to say it was dark and that his phone was almost dead -  so I'd go and pick him up.

"The pair caught another train back but fell asleep and woke up trapped inside the train at Helensburgh."

I doubt the girls in question  "fell asleep" before they got to Helensburgh.

how is that different to the same guy getting off the train, going to the car parked close by and having a stroke or a heart attack in his car?

...because the train company has a duty of care to it's passengers whilst on board the train or in the station.
Including but not limited to making sure that they don't get accidentally locked in a train overnight.

I know lots of people who've been drunk and fallen asleep on the last train home and been woken up by the conductor at the end of the line.

It's such a common occurence that I find it incredible that these girls weren't discovered.

"The girls shouldn't have done it, but they are children and children do stupid things," she said

Pretty much

"Any adults who saw two 12-year-olds getting off a train on their own should have questioned that."

Why? As per Crispin and others plenty of reasons for a 12 year old to take a train by themselves.

Ms Greenan said she did not believe the children had deliberately hidden inside the train.

I am calling bullshit

Just kids being kids. I doubt the last check is more than a cursory inspection, and not designed to find people hiding.

Most people have done plenty of more dangerous things in their youth, most got away with them.

…because the train company has a duty of care to it’s passengers whilst on board the train or in the station.

I'm sure there's a law somewhere that states that libraries or other public buildings have a duty of care to their patrons. Perhaps trains are special, but is there actually anything in law that means conductors must check trains thoroughly before locking them at night time?

The issue I do have is that Scotrail staff (who have previous on this in my experience) refused to let minors onto a train. There is a training need and judgement here.

It was Glasgow central on a Friday night I'm not surprised they got turned away as there's always wee neds about at that time. I believe it would have been a different story if they went up to the ticket office and explained what happened. But trying to sneak on board I'm not surprised they got turned away.

I know lots of people who’ve been drunk and fallen asleep on the last train home and been woken up by the conductor at the end of the line.

It’s such a common occurence that I find it incredible that these girls weren’t discovered.

I suspect that they were hiding. when the train was checked. If they were scared of getting Caught at Glasgow I bet they were scared of getting caught at Helensbourgh as well

I suspect that they were hiding

Where?

Where?

In-between back to back seats right at the back up against the wall. The conductor/driver will walk through the train but they are not checking every nook and cranny. there looking for people a sleep and drunk not kids hiding.

In-between back to back seats right at the back up against the wall.

Not on those trains. There is no gap between the back to back seats. The whole train is designed not to have nooks and crannies to make it easy to clean and hard to lose bags etc. There is literally nowhere to hide on them.

Not on those trains. There is no gap between the back to back seats. The whole train is designed not have nooks and crannies to make it easy to clean and hard to lose bags etc. There is literally nowhere to hide on them.

Not having taking the Helesnbourgh train before I can't comment on that. I assumed they looked like the other ScotRail trains shown below

The mum in the news article seems desperate to blame everybody, except the people mostly at fault here 🙄

As far as the public challenging them goes…..Any adult male who approached two unaccompanied 12 year old girls in a train station, however innocently, would be opening themselves up to a whole world of trouble.

This is nonsense and shows just how much ill effect the tabloids have had on society and how stupidly self interested people are

I wouldn't approach unless they looked distressed or lost but if they did I would have no hesitation in approaching them.

I wouldn’t approach unless they looked distressed or lost but if they did I would have no hesitation in approaching them.

100% agreed. There is no need for an individual to fear getting into trouble for trying to help someone in need.

I wouldn’t approach unless they looked distressed or lost but if they did I would have no hesitation in approaching them.

+1

There was a bit where some 7-8 year old Malay kids were running their own freediving fishing trips and then it cut to the American kid of the same age trying to decide what gender clothes to choose.

If only we could rewind to when we sent kids down't pit eh?

This is nonsense and shows just how much ill effect the tabloids have had on society and how stupidly self interested people are

I wouldn’t approach unless they looked distressed or lost but if they did I would have no hesitation in approaching them.

Iagree

sloe news day?

Ms Greenan said she did not believe the children had deliberately hidden inside the train.

I, too, call shenanigans. And on the falling asleep thing, that's a big pile of doo doos. They didn't want to get bollocked for fare dodging. Then they got stuck in a locked train. Now mummy is trying to blame the trains.

Not having taking the Helesnbourgh train before I can’t comment on that. I assumed they looked like the other ScotRail trains shown below

Nah its more like a first bus. Rock hard bench seats no carpets. Very open. And baltic they must have been absolutely frozen.

The mum sounds like a walloper looking for any excuse for it not to be her or her daughters fault.

The issue I do have is that Scotrail staff (who have previous on this in my experience) refused to let minors onto a train. There is a training need and judgement here.

They could equally have been at their home station and trying to skip out. If they had been, and had been challenged and allowed on, I’m sure Scotrail would be on the hook for that, instead.

that was my thought but as i said they had a pretty crap night… I can’t see any point in a legal investigation though the insurers for Scotrail might have one?

I think the problem is you are assuming “police investigation” = “looking for a crime”. BTP are probably just as interested in how they stop the other 12 yr olds in central scotland from copying them! And I’m sure Police Scotland will be quite keen to learn how they could have found them sooner - and avoided what was probably a dozen officers hunting Dumbartonshire on a saturday night...

It’s almost like the media aren’t content with a good news story!

It’s almost like you can’t accept the journalist reported what the police said, or that the police aren’t just there to lock people up.

I’d say they had a crap enough night without facing prosecution.

I think the investigation is going to be focused on how the train wasn't checked thoroughly, because this is the key issue here. They do check trains usually - I've been woken up (not drunk!) at the end of the line before, although it was my destination - but as said, they were probably hiding.

I think the investigation is going to be focused on how the train wasn’t checked thoroughly, because this is the key issue here.

why?

…because the train company has a duty of care to it’s passengers whilst on board the train or in the station.

why?

How did our country get into such a state a train company has a duty of care to prevent people hiding on their trains?

perchy - to go back

how is that different to the same guy getting off the train, going to the car parked close by and having a stroke or a heart attack in his car?

So if its the station car park ?
what if they parked in a council/private car park?
what if they parked (legally) on the street?

because the train company has a duty of care to it’s passengers whilst on board the train or in the station

so when someone sadly decides to end their life jumping in front of the train it's the train companies fault?

How did our country get into such a state a train company has a duty of care to prevent people hiding on their trains?

Where did anyone say that? Why do you assume that the investigation (which is probably already complete whilst you are still arguing about why its needed it on the internet) will conclude that there was any fault?

so when someone sadly decides to end their life jumping in front of the train it’s the train companies fault?

Not their fault per se but that have a duty to take reasonable steps to prevent it or at least not make it easy. For example there are anti-suicide pits at underground stations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_on_the_London_Underground

How did our country get into such a state a train company has a duty of care to prevent people hiding on their trains?

Maybe not to prevent them hiding, but again at least not make it easy and not lock people in

Of course the train company has a duty of care. Everyone does! they have a duty of care that their services are safe and IMO checking no one is left on the train is part of that. What happens if someone is taken ill, falls asleep etc?

Depends where the kids were hiding if that duty of care is breached as they only need to take reasonable steps to check the train

Of course the train company has a duty of care. Everyone does!

Scotrail staff in my experience have a lack of training and knowledge here. Two of my own kids have had run in with over zealous staff who refused them onto a train or booted them off a train - both times stating they had to pre-buy a ticket, while selling tickets to adults sat on the train.

edit: my point being here, that the walk through the train check was too late. The issue seems to have arisen when a station staff member refused them access to the platform, so possibly making the girls nervous of not having a ticket...

my point being here, that the walk through the train check was too late. The issue seems to have arisen when a station staff member refused them access to the platform, so possibly making the girls nervous of not having a ticket…

From the BBC but a member of staff at a turnstile who found them without tickets "told them to go away"

I can't see how you can blame Scotrail for turning them away without tickets at the gate.

That was there opportunity to come clean to the train staff at which point I'm sure the train staff would have helped if not then BTP who would have had an officer on duty.

It was Glasgow central on a Friday evening/night the staff probably turned away a dozen kids that night trying to sneak on board.

That's true - but at the same time some vulnerable child & adult training and one question could have seen a different outcome.

No way is any of this a prosecution - but as ever, there is learning for all involved.

I've taught my kids, like I was taught, that if they are ever in trouble and have to approach a stranger you go to someone in uniform - and tell them the whole story, no matter how bad.