[Closed] Triple Murderer feels Teary and Upset

Hmm, I think I probably agree with you.

It's the eternal problem. Showing compassion to those who really don't deserve it, or at the very least have decided to opt out of the basic moral rules most of us abide by.

Personally, I think she should be shot into the sun.

She killed the landlord of a shared house opposite me.

Okay, I'll bite:

Will treating her badly make her less likely to reoffend when released? No, and I'd assume she's never getting out anyway.

Will treating her badly discourage other similar crimes? No.

So in that case what's the point? The measure of a society is how we treat people like this - we should prove how much more humane we are than she is by treating her properly.

I will counter that bite. While it may not miraculously cure her, should she not feel some discomfort in return for taking the lives of 3 individuals?

So in that case what's the point? The measure of a society is how we treat people like this - we should prove how much more humane we are than she is by treating her properly.

I understand that and agree with it. But at a time when there is so much pressure on the public purse it is galling to see this sort of thing taking up time, and money, in the courts.

The measure of a society is how we treat people like this

I'd argue that is only partly the case. What about the way we treat her victims' families by extension?

I don't think it helps to draw a line around the most obvious 'person' and say [u]this[/u] is the measure of a society. If you consistently choose the most extreme devil's advocate examples you can end up in some pretty unpleasant places.

Whilst I suspect it's a bullshit claim brought by someone for the sake of something to do, that's not really the point - whether you call it punishment, rehabilitation or simply protecting the public from a very dangerous person - prison is not meant to be pleasant.

"Teary and Upset" is pretty much the way my Son used to feel when we put him on the naughty step for being rude, someone who killed 3 people and tried to kill another 2 should feel a little more that "teary and upset".

I will counter that bite.

Me too. She is a danger to herself & others. She is not being denied privileges such as TV.

Whilst I believe you are sent to prison as a punishment, not to be punished - keeping her away from others is clearly for their own safety.

I will counter that bite. While it may not miraculously cure her, should she not feel some discomfort in return for taking the lives of 3 individuals?

It's justice not revenge

bencooper ftw. Prison should be about rehabilitation, not punishment.

It's justice not revenge

Should punishment not be part of justice?

Should punishment not be part of justice?

Kant would have it that punishment IS justice.

In the 18th century, philosopher Immanuel Kant argued in Metaphysics of Morals, §49 E., that the only legitimate form of punishment the court can prescribe must be based on retribution and no other principle. "Judicial punishment can never be used merely as a means to promote some other good for the criminal himself or for civil society, but instead it must in all cases be imposed on him only on the ground that he has committed a crime."

Kant regards punishment as a matter of justice, and it must be carried out by the state for the sake of the law, not for the sake of the criminal or the victim. He argues that if the guilty are not punished, justice is not done. Further, if justice is not done, then the idea of law itself is undermined.

You lot think too much ...

Think about the cost!

Think about the money that can put to good use!

Think about the money!

mtbfix - Member
bencooper ftw. Prison should be about rehabilitation, not punishment.

Rehabilitate what?

Rehabilitate the family of the murdered?

😯

Stoner - Member

Should punishment not be part of justice?

Kant would have it that punishment IS justice.

Are you actually discussing the right issues?

It's not a case of punishment vs rehabilitation.

From reading the article, it seems she was kept isolated from other prisoners. Prison says it was justified due to a planned breakout attempt that involved cutting off someones finger. She claims this was unjust, and caused unnecessary suffering.

I don't think the prison is arguing that she was kept isolated as punishment.

It's worth keeping in mind (I know others have said the same) that Solitary Confinement isn't a form of punishment per se - it's something that's imposed for the safety of either the prisoner, or other prisoners, the staff or a combination of all three.

She should face the sentence like prisoners depicted in the movie Papillon.

It's justice not revenge

...and this time it's personal!

Starring Chuck Norris.

She should face the sentence like prisoners depicted in the movie Papillon.

A nice holiday to French Guiana?

A nice holiday to French Guiana?

But maybe not involving the "charger"* eh?

*why the hell do I remember [i]that[/i] bit of the book? Sheesh.

Anyway, I prefer Kafka's take on it in "In the Penal Colony"

[img] [/img]

bencooper ftw. Prison should be about rehabilitation, not punishment.

frontal lobotomy or large electric shocks might do it, otherwise I doubt it is possible.

She is lucky she is able to feel 'Teary and upset'. In many countries she would have received a death sentence and not be feeling anything

Dennehy, it is argued, should be compensated "to afford just satisfaction" for the breaches of her rights.

Its a shame we can't compensate the three men she murdered "to afford just satisfaction" for the breaches of their rights

My view is that unless family of the victim forgives the murderer, the murderer should be punished

A crime has been committed. Other than an "impact statement" how the family/victims of any criminal offence feel is immaterial and should have no impact on sentencing.
I know in other countries money changes hands between offenders and the victims of families, in my opinion that is barbaric and primitive.

surfer - Member

My view is that unless family of the victim forgives the murderer, the murderer should be punished

A crime has been committed. Other than an "impact statement" how the family/victims of any criminal offence feel is immaterial and should have no impact on sentencing.
I know in other countries money changes hands between offenders and the victims of families, in my opinion that is barbaric and primitive.

Yes, you have no say in the sentencing as this is democracy. Majority rules!

Imagine majority decide death that should be funny. Referendum on that? Quick someone please start an on-line petition ... ya, take that! On-line petition.

Barbaric and primitive? Nope. It's how the nature work.

Actually it is more humane to put criminals (the murderers) to sleep rather than trying to "rehabilitate" them.

Think about the cost!
Think about the money!
Think about the hassle of keeping them alive.
FFS! Think about the good sleep you can have without having to worry about being accused of double standard.
😮

In the 18th century, philosopher Immanuel Kant

Kant was a third rate hack with a few good ideas that were lost in the rest of his work, Schopenhauer ftw.

Kant was a bit of a boozer....

Tom_W1987 - Member

In the 18th century, philosopher Immanuel Kant

Kant was a third rate hack, Schopenhauer ftw.

John Locke.

Who, respectfully, shits all over Kant as well. 😆

Love a STW thread hijack,upset murder chat becomes argument about which philosopher was best!

Tom_W1987 - Member

John Locke.

Who, respectfully, shits all over Kant as well.

Who then got shite all over by others ... 😆

Ya, democracy didn't he say something about that?
[b]Would he be in LibDem if he was alive? [/b]

franksinatra - Member
Love a STW thread hijack,upset murder chat becomes argument about which philosopher was best!

😆 Told you they think too much.

Okay...hypothetically speaking:

A person is convicted of murder and they are imprisoned by the state. That person is denied their basic human rights, therefore they are subjected to inhumane treatment by the judicial system and by prison officers.

Now, let's just say that the prisoner happens to be innocent - a fact that is proven some years after imprisonment.

How would they appeal their sentence?
Are prison officers morally culpable for cruelty?
What would be the acceptable level of compensation for the prisoner once the unsafe conviction is overturned?

At what point does the popular desire for revenge tip the system so that it becomes corrupt and unjust?

Now, I'm not suggesting for a moment that Ms Dennehy is innocent - she's been convicted by a jury of her peers and is serving sentence. Her solitary confinement may be necessary for her own safety and/or for the safety of other prisoners/staff. But she should be allowed to challenge the decision, even if only for answers.

I do not agree that we should euthanize people that society finds distasteful. I would refuse to sit on any jury if the final judgement was a person's life, however much I found them offensive.

PJM1974 - Member
Now, let's just say that the prisoner happens to be innocent - a fact that is proven some years after imprisonment.

FFS! You move on or get whatever compensation you can or punish those that make the wrong decision.

In far east we consider that as "bad luck" (bad luck to be sentenced wrongly) then move on or seek revenge whatever shite that makes them forgive/forget.

Revenge is always sweet but then we also know that revenge cannot end so the choice is up to the individual. If they choose revenge then so be it that's their problem and they can exterminate each other as much as they like.

Human are not saint you know ... we are ZM!

That's how things are ... 🙄

I do not agree that we should euthanize people that society finds distasteful. I would refuse to sit on any jury if the final judgement was a person's life, however much I found them offensive.

What if society decides to bring back human extermination legally because someone has done the online petition ... ya, petition this and that ...

Would you comply with the majority rule considering that this is a democratic society? Ya, ya ... now you cannot sleep. Ya. 😆

Okay...hypothetically speaking:

A person is convicted of murder and they are imprisoned by the state. That person is denied their basic human rights, therefore they are subjected to inhumane treatment by the judicial system and by prison officers.

Now, let's just say that the prisoner happens to be innocent - a fact that is proven some years after imprisonment.

How would they appeal their sentence?
Are prison officers morally culpable for cruelty?
What would be the acceptable level of compensation for the prisoner once the unsafe conviction is overturned?

At what point does the popular desire for revenge tip the system so that it becomes corrupt and unjust?

Now, I'm not suggesting for a moment that Ms Dennehy is innocent - she's been convicted by a jury of her peers and is serving sentence. Her solitary confinement may be necessary for her own safety and/or for the safety of other prisoners/staff. But she should be allowed to challenge the decision, even if only for answers.

I do not agree that we should euthanize people that society finds distasteful. I would refuse to sit on any jury if the final judgement was a person's life, however much I found them offensive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Clark

To put that into context,

Clark was convicted in November 1999. The convictions were upheld at appeal in October 2000, but overturned in a second appeal in January 2003, after it emerged that Dr Alan Williams, the prosecution forensic pathologist who examined both of her babies, had incompetently failed to disclose microbiological reports that suggested the second of her sons had died of natural causes.[7] She was released from prison having served more than three years of her sentence. The journalist Geoffrey Wansell called Clark's experience "one of the great miscarriages of justice in modern British legal history".[8] As a result of her case, the Attorney-General ordered a review of hundreds of other cases, and two other women had their convictions overturned.

She then killed herself once she was released.

FFS! You move on or get whatever compensation you can or punish those that make the wrong decision.

In far east we consider that as "bad luck" (bad luck to be sentenced wrongly) then move on or seek revenge whatever shite that makes them forgive/forget.

The far east also uses medicines that have no objective benefit and they continue to rely on what is no better than witchcraft.

In regards to the death penalty, government should not listen to just the emotional petitions of people. Ochlocracy is not democracy - it is a debasement of democracy and rationalism, democracy serves to protect people from themselves - and should be based on enligtenment and humanistic values IMO. There are plenty of rationalist arguments (public health being one) against capital punishment - there are very few that scientifically support it.

FFS!

I don't see why my post warranted an "FFS". There's no justification for an offensive response if you disagree with a forum member, that's basic manners - As the moderators have themselves put it:

The ethos of this forum must be one of mutual respect for everyone who uses it. You may argue and debate with anyone but when the argument becomes heated or abuse begins to creep in, then you will have crossed the line. If you don't step back from it then you will likely be moderated.

Back to your response Chewkw:

...you move on or get whatever compensation you can or punish those that make the wrong decision.

Really? You simply accept the judgement with a fatalism that whatever will be, will be? Then once the conviction is overturned - assuming that your human rights allow for a retrial - you take the compensation and shut up?

In far east we consider that as "bad luck" (bad luck to be sentenced wrongly) then move on or seek revenge whatever shite that makes them forgive/forget.

With the greatest of respect, we are not in the Far East nor are we discussing the treatment of a prisoner in the Far East.

This is purely about her segregation, no other aspect of her treatment. Apparently she was segregated for her part in a plot (with others) to escape by cutting the thumb off a prison officer and use it to get through biometric scanners.

Prisoners are segregated if they pose a threat to other prisoners, or vice versa, or a threat to prison staff through their association with other prisoners.

They need a way of fast-tracking these kind of vexatious cases so lawyers can't milk a year's worth of legal aid out of it.

More pertinently, she clearly has an extreme personality disorder verging on a diagnosable mental illness. Perhaps they should look again at whether Broadmoor is a better option.

I am uneasy about the title of the features article on the right of that BBC news link...

Tom_W1987 - Member
In regards to the death penalty, government should not listen to just the emotional petitions of people. Ochlocracy is not democracy - it is a debasement of democracy and rationalism, democracy serves to

I am talking about democracy where people can vote to have a referendum (whatever you call it) on death penalty, then another vote to vote to see if death penalty should be brought back ... see you have a referendum on referendum ... 😀

PJM1974 - Member

FFS!

I don't see why my post warranted an "FFS". There's no justification for an offensive response if you disagree with a forum member, that's basic manners - As the moderators have themselves put it:

Wrong expression. Should be "Crikey!"

Okay, okay no need to run to moderators all the time ... you are a big boy aren't you? Crikey! 😀

Very simple. Human population is expanding all the time so few death is not going to make any impact at all.

Yes, you might be hurt if there was a wrong justice etc but that is how it should be. Sometime you win sometime you loose ...

Alright, alright we are not in far east ... just merely presenting my view that's all ... I have not gone to Online petition yet ... 😛

More pertinently, she clearly has an extreme personality disorder verging on a diagnosable mental illness. Perhaps they should look again at whether Broadmoor is a better option.

There's currently in progress a £242 million overhaul of the Broadmoor site. There had been £10 million spent on a swimming pool and gym that I believe is not used.

In the several decades that I lived in that vicinity there was ongoing building works, in fact I could see it from when I cycled to Swinley Forest.

Serial mismanagement of public money as far as that place is concerned, it's a scandal.

Hmmm.. in this case, this instance.. Is there a key to the cell?

Can they not just throw it away?

I see no reason why not.

Is there a key to the cell

Sounds like they use biometric scanners and [i]throw away the thumb[/i] doesn't have the same ring to it does it?

Prison or not, this scumbag killed for fun, solitary confinement should be the least of her problems, but no, she'll get her pillows plumped and tucked in after a nice story.

mtbfix - Member

bencooper ftw. Prison should be about rehabilitation, not punishment.

I disagree. For me the order of priority is:

1. Get dangerous / criminal people out of circulation to protect the law abiding majority.

2. Punish the offenders (and be seen to be punishing the offenders) - for the sake of victims and to discourage other from committing crimes (policing by consent to a certain extent).

3. Rehabilitation - but with the focus firmly on reducing the risk to the law abiding majority on release. If the offender has any time left on their sentence after they have been rehabilitated in a social sense, then they can study for an A-Level in Marine Biology or whatever.

Okay, stepping away from keyboard warrior mode for a minute, I don't see how euthanizing a prisoner or two will have the slightest impact on human overpopulation.

That issue now dealt with, the issue in hand is that a prisoner is claiming that solitary confinement is in contravention of their human rights. If Dennehy were given free and unrestricted access to fellow inmates or jail staff, then I'm sure that the resulting inquiry would find that the human rights of staff & prisoners plural protecting them from being stabbed and mutilated by a sociopath may well take precedence.

It smells to me like some hotshot lawyer is seeking a nice fee and has agreed to take this case on out of notoriety, in which case the Home Secretary will treat it with contempt and throw it out.

Regardless of whether Dennehy has access to a gym, a pool, a playstation or a taxpayer funded giant beanbag or not, she is no longer a danger to the public whilst she is incarcerated. Seems like a non-story to me.

I disagree. For me the order of priority is:

1. Get dangerous / criminal people out of circulation to protect the law abiding majority.

2. Punish the offenders (and be seen to be punishing the offenders) - for the sake of victims and to discourage other from committing crimes (policing by consent to a certain extent).

Countries that practice punitive punishment are those that tend to do things like stone women to death in front of baying crowds, restorative justice has been the western norm for a long long time.

Don't accuse me of reducto ad absurdism either, there is a Thin Red Line between civilization and savagery - that huamity has proven time and time again.

1 and 3 are the only legitimate reasons for imprisonment, 2 is not - as it simply legitimizes the idea of revenge in society. When people see the state committing acts of revenge, they are more prone to carrying out acts of revenge themselves as well.

Odd. No one thinks about the people who are inside prison for not paying a TV licence fine/Council tax/Bedroom tax or other bills, sometimes out of choice or not being able to pay. What about those who just had a really bad lawyer and waiting for their appeal. What about those who are innocent, or getting shafted by dishonest police (does happen

Before the 'Flaming torches' get lit, and the gallows built, think about all those who had to suffer becuase justice. depends on luck

Remember the woman who were put inside prison and abused by staff and prisoners becuause they were supposed to have shaken their baby to death. The doctor who testified was found to be a fame hungry idiot and further testing (years down the line) proved the children had a medical problems.

(sorry for the spelling and what not. I'm pooped)

They need a way of fast-tracking these kind of vexatious cases so lawyers can't milk a year's worth of legal aid out of it.

She may be better off asking for a transfer to Broadmoor. Can't remember the figures but was very surprised at the number that are released each year.

Prison should be about rehabilitation, not punishment.

Would you feel the same way if (for example) a drunk driver mowed down your family. They'd most probably be disgusted with themselves, vow never to get behind the wheel of a car again etc etc...What use would sending them to prison be?

anyways, back on topic and its not as if shes being locked away in a hole in the ground and p1ssing in a bucket now is it...

Don't accuse me of reducto ad absurdism either,

I didn't - that wasn't to do with your comment.

2 is not - as it simply legitimizes the idea of revenge in society

Not necessarily - there has to be a sanction for committing criminal acts and it has to be seen to be proportionate, but there is still an element of punishment to it. It is also important that justice is seen to be done. Not by a baying mob, just by society as a whole.

No doubt you will now go off along a line of "the nazis massacred whole villages 'pour decourager les autres' - and that is where your argument logically leads".

But it doesn't have to.

You seem to specialise in subjecting views you don't like to some kind of secondary school 'logical progression' to arrive at an absurd (and rightly attackable) 'logical conclusion'.

Combine this with ignoring such a process for your own views and you create a polarisation which isn't really there.

Not particularly clever, but it does suck a lot of people in.

"Is that what you want? Cos that's what'll happen".

[img] [/img]

Are you actually discussing the right issues?

It's not a case of punishment vs rehabilitation.

From reading the article, it seems she was kept isolated from other prisoners. Prison says it was justified due to a planned breakout attempt that involved cutting off someones finger. She claims this was unjust, and caused unnecessary suffering.

I don't think the prison is arguing that she was kept isolated as punishment.

This.

Sociopaths like to mess with the system, it's a form of exerting control which would be otherwise difficult to do when in prison. Dennehy fits the profile of a sociopath, she plead guilty to the surprise of her own defence team, probably because it was easier to do so than to provide explanation for her actions. A sociopath will do this as a way of tormenting the victims' families and fighting the system.

Leroy Bellfield - the killer of Milly Dowler didn't bother turning up for his own sentencing, he was well aware that Milly's family and the legal system required closure, but he wanted to remain in control of something.

Perhaps the very worst thing that a sociopath can possibly face is a loss of control and resulting irrelevence...locking them away in Broadmoor or wherever where they cannot torment people is probably perceived as a worse punishment by the likes of Dennehy and Bellfield than simply executing them.

PJM1974 has hit a nail very squarely on the head.

The likes of Dennehy will always crave a way to remain 'relevant'. Look at what has happened with Brady always keeping the location of some of his victims secret. For him it means that he feels he still has some power over someone.

It is right that we recognise when we are being 'played'.

Are there any actual prison staff on here apart from me? (reading this thread with interest)

I imagine partly why she's kept in solitary for the moment is because of riskto other inmates and guards. Any prison staff on STW comment on procedure/isolation?

Prison staff dress up in full riot gear with sheilds and helmet, storm her cell and drag her off to the block where she is left to spit and scream to her hearts content. Forgot to mention they pin her to the floor leaving one the room one at a time, she can't get up straight away as her legs and arms will most likely be dead from the weight of all the staff.

I wish there was far more available to rehabilitate prisoners. But some will almost certainly never be released, and therein lies the problem.

However, she is not being kept in solitary as a punishment as far as I have read - doesn't seem to have been an attack by or on her. An Assessment has said that that is the safest place to keep her for everybody's sake. Presumably when they are satisfied she is able to move into regular confinement they will do it.

Agree that this case is a drain on public time and funds, and an attention/power trip for her

chewkw - Member
I am talking about democracy where people can vote to have a referendum (whatever you call it) on death penalty, then another vote to vote to see if death penalty should be brought back

The last thing this country needs to be doing is pandering to the sort of ****s who democratically voted the Tories in.

Sometimes we need protecting from ourselves.

You lot are wrong ... 😈

We need to start an online petition in order to start the online petition to debate death penalty.

An online petition to start the online petition to debate and an online petition to rule them all!

Ya, online petition ... the democracy! 😛

Imagine if majority vote for the return of death penalty ... 😆

Ya, democracy! Freedommmmm!

Freedom comes from the barrel of the gun! Ya! 😆

edit:

teethgrinder - Member

chewkw - Member
I am talking about democracy where people can vote to have a referendum (whatever you call it) on death penalty, then another vote to vote to see if death penalty should be brought back

The last thing this country needs to be doing is pandering to the sort of **** who democratically voted the Tories in.

Sometimes we need protecting from ourselves.

I ain't Tories boy or commies Labour and neither am I a LimpDem or Green Utopian.

Funny thing is that I voted all of them in the past!

I feel dirty for voting them lot ...

What a disgrace. 😆

edit edit: My mission now is to keep the lefties out as long as possible ... bloody communists are trying to free ride my blood and sweat! (this is a temporal effect by the way as I will choose next target once the lefties are put in their place ... after two generations at least) 😈

@chewkw...are you old enough to be voting? I always had you down at about fourteen years old....funny old world...

Prison staff dress up in [s]full riot[/s] protective equipment with sheilds and helmet, [s]storm her cell[/s] enter her cell while being videod and [s]drag[/s] take her under restraint to the block where she is left to spit and scream to her hearts content. Forgot to mention they pin her to the floor leaving one the room one at a time, she can't get up straight away as her legs and arms will most likely be dead from the weight of all (3) staff.

I'll explain a full 'relocation' if you want. It's all planned & recorded.

Not particularly clever

It is when I can back up my argument with empirical analysis - public health research seems to indicate that the death penalty leads to higher murder rates. It has been theorised that this is in part due to the the psychological effect or legitimising violence that state sanctioned violence has. Also, I would argue that the climate produced by a justice system that encourages revenge acts as a barrier to recovery for individual victims and society as a whole. Maybe listen to what the shrinks are saying?

edenvalleyboy - Member
@chewkw...are you old enough to be voting? I always had you down at about fourteen years old....funny old world...

It is when I can back up my argument with empirical analysis - public health research seems to indicate that the death penalty leads to higher murder rates.

Where ?

I'll see if I can dig it up when I'm at work - a while back I found a decent paper or two that controlled for all sorts of sociological issues in the States on pubmed or possibly some other journal database.

I can't remember whether it was a statistically significant rise though - however it definitely had no deterrent effect.

Tom_W1987 - Member

I'll see if I can dig it up when I'm at work - a while back I found a decent paper or two that controlled for all sorts of sociological issues in the States on pubmed or possibly some other journal database.

I can't remember whether it was a statistically significant rise though - however it definitely had no deterrent effect.

Really! Really! 😆

I'll see if I can dig it up when I'm at work - a while back I found a decent paper or two that controlled for all sorts of sociological issues in the States on pubmed or possibly some other journal database

I suspected you were referring to the US, try some research for the UK pre 1965, also actually compare the actual amount of hangings carried out against the murders committed and convicted, why people continually refer to the US on this debate is bizarre.

It is when I can back up my argument with empirical analysis - public health research [u]seems[/u] to indicate that the death penalty leads to higher murder rates. It has been [u]theorised[/u] that this is in part due to the the psychological effect or legitimising violence that state sanctioned violence has.

With added emphasis.

I didn't mention the death penalty, though. Or any violence for that matter. Why are you talking about death penalties and violence rather than imprisonment?

Sorry, but you still need to try harder. I know it is easier to imagine and portray anyone who disagrees with you as a raving fascist loony, but immediately polarising the argument in this way doesn't smack of much more than Daily Mail journalism (in reverse - obviously).

[quote=mrsfry ]Odd. No one thinks about the people who are inside prison for not paying a TV licence fine/Council tax/Bedroom tax or other bills, sometimes out of choice or not being able to pay. What about those who just had a really bad lawyer and waiting for their appeal. What about those who are innocent, or getting shafted by dishonest police (does happen

It appears those people are exactly who are being thought of by keeping Dennehy segregated from them.

Dennehy is on a whole life sentence.

I suspected you were referring to the US, try some research for the UK pre 1965, also actually compare the actual amount of hangings carried out against the murders committed and convicted, why people continually refer to the US on this debate is bizarre.

Because the states is a modern country with varying laws from state to state meaning that you can undertake a semi rigorous analysis of punishment and deterrence

Looking at a graph for an entire country and saying....ooooh look murder rates have gone up since 1965......is not.

With added emphasis.

I didn't mention the death penalty, though. Or any violence for that matter. Why are you talking about death penalties and violence rather than imprisonment?

Because, for example, increased prison sentences for say...assault...do not deter criminals either. The rate of conviction does however, deter offenders. 😆 But I'd mentioned the death penalty as it had already come up, also I'd argue that locking people up just for the sake of vengeance is violence.

Now Breivik is at it[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35807961 ]Norway killer Anders Breivik sues over human rights
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35807961 [/url]

Ha, was just about to post that. Poorly decorated cell? NO MOISTURISER? Those monsters!

I wonder who gains from such legal challenges and actions..

Who usually gains from legal action?

I wonder who gains from such legal challenges and actions..

Lawyers. And sociopaths who are driven to feel as though they are in control of something.

However, for each sociopath who delights in bucking the system there are innumerable inmates who've a genuine grievance which needs to be addressed. Any penal system must have it's checks and balances, if we are to ensure that abuses of power do not take place.

increased prison sentences for say...assault...do not deter criminals either.

maybe that is because conditions are too tolerable inside ?

maybe that is because conditions are too tolerable inside ?

Punishment doesn't mean sitting inside four walls in luxury playing CoD on a PlayStation.

Have you applied for a job recently? You'll know about having to provide details of any criminal convictions...a conviction for Drink Driving invariably means unaffordable insurance after a ban has been served.

On the flipside, the system must do all it can to support and incentivise inmates to better themselves whilst in prison. Surely you'd rather they became productive members of society upon release, rather than reverting to criminal activity?