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Before i start, this may be be hard to explain but i will do my best.
The person involved has as far as i am aware been doing an excellent job and has met and gone above expectations. Essentially they have been a model employee. However there has been an under current of the manager not taking a fancy to this person and very nearly terminated the person at probation on the grounds of a “personality clash”. No evidence or clash of personalities has ever happened and within a few days of the probation meeting the manager agreed and probation was passed. Strange and surprising event which raised a little red flag for the future for this person. Anyway a few months further down the line and to current time and its all blown up again.
The person has been on holiday and even joined work meetings whilst on holiday abroad (as said, model employee). Returned to work this week and was pulled in to an office with their manager and corporate HR person in attendance. Was told this meeting is off the record and informal and should not be recorded by either party. They were told that her employment would be terminated on the grounds that she doesnt hold the core values of the company (nothing has ever been said or written or mentioned about this ever) and that she is divisive. The person can accept this and get 3 months pay (notice period) and holiday entitlement paid or they can go down a formal route whereby they are unlikely to get anything and they will inform the governing body. They have given them 10 days to make there mind up and told that this cant be discussed with anybody else in the organisation or it voids the offer. HR also told them to go speak to a solicitor if they wanted to. EDIT: in the meeting the managereven said its nothing to do with the work you have done!
Now what the heck is that all about and is that legal? Clearly there is some ulterior motive going on and they want the person out of there but is that a legal way to do it? Without costing big money, what should the next course of action be. Find a solicitor, CAB or other organisation? This is just utter madness and i just cant get my head around it, it feels like the stuff you see in movies.
Are they still in the 2 years probation period where they can be dismissed for any reason? if so, probably take the money.
If not, perhaps speak to the union rep to get them onside for advice?
Either way, I'd be updating my CV and looking to get a new job.
Sounds a shitty situation
The person has been on holiday and even joined work meetings whilst on holiday abroad (as said, model employee).
i don't know about the rest, but you can do one if this is considered a model employee...
and is that legal?
If they’ve been there less than 2 years and it’s not due to any protected attributes, yes.
Did they have a work visa whilst abroad?
They have only been there 10 months and probation period was 6 months. There is no union rep to speak of which was my first suggestion. The governing body they are threatening to inform has no advice line even though the person is a member of that organisation.
CV is up to date and they are already asking there contacts for job roles. I think eventually they will take the offer but at this moment the shock of the reasoning behind it is building the anger to stick 2 fingers up at them and fight it.
Sounds like they don't know why so wouldn't know if its due to a protected attribute or not.
As said above though, less than two years and there's not much that can be done.
If they can afford the time, money and stress then fight it if that's in their nature.
Otherwise, just be glad to be out.
Jam bo that was just to show that this person does lots of good work to back up the claim of being a good employee. The person does 60hr weeks pretty much every week to ensure the job is done well and i am not exaggerating that. I guess thats what might be pissing them off the most. All that hard work and they can just dismiss you for no reason whatsoever and make the core value shit up to cover there own arses.
I think this is a fight they are going to have to give up. In any case i told them there position would be untenable with all this happening any way.
Honestly, I'd take the 3 months. Sounds like a toxic workplace, and getting paid to leave sounds ideal.
Sounds like taking the money and running is the best option.
@Aidy +1
But, is there any chance of some more constructive feedback, even if it off the record. Something has gone badly wrong somewhere and it’s unusual for it all to be the fault of one party.
If they're are doing 60 hours a week, that's not a model employee, that's someone who is either overloaded (most likely) so the manager needs sacking or some detailed coaching, or struggling to cope with the job they've got themselves into (so the manager needs to reevaluate the employees workload and competence.)
Take the money, leave.
Look for a job that they can do in the hours they are contracted to do.
All that hard work and they can just dismiss you for no reason whatsoever and make the core value shit up to cover there own arses.
It's not hard work, it's over work. And FWIW, it's the way of the UK workplace these days.
I think you are right. No point in staying there any longer than necessary. It will only be a matter of time before they find another reason to get rid of them.
If they’ve been there less than 2 years and it’s not due to any protected attributes, yes
Well no, not necessarily - if there is a dismissal policy in place (that formed part of the employees terms) it can take precedent over the law.
sounds shady as F to me. Surely theres a demonstrable case for unfair dismissal, and HR trying to keep it off the books is ringing alarm bells?
Sounds like it could be racial, or do "they" have poor personal hygiene or something?
Having SAID that, do they want to fight to work in a place that doesnt want them?
Turn the shady dealings back around on them and counter offer
6 months pay and theyll walk.
or they can take it to court, get nothing but the company has to pay fees, gets dragged through the mud (and pressumably pay the employee all while this is ongoing), and "they" walk at the end of it anyway.
My wife works with a colleague who is red-hot at the work they do - but they are also an atmosphere sink who brings the whole feel of the office down.
Good worker and good member of staff aren't always the same.
MERT - private organisation whereby money means more than anything else including staff well being. Job is way too big for one person and they know it. Hugely under staffed in every dept but they expect you to do extra. This is a private hospital setting and it disgusts me they can be like this.
Take the money and move on, sounds like complete weirdness, is the boss male or female, sounds like it’s down to something personal, as you don’t give up a good worker for nothing as a manager, as that just puts more pressure on you and your team
Olly - that exactly what got my alarm bells ringing. Informal chat about employee termination and yet hold you to privacy, i dont know any HR/organisation that would do that. It sounds shady as hell and they know it so these big threats/offer is there for you just to nod and say ok and be quiet. HR are always sticklers for keeping records and following process but i doubt this is.
Take the money and run. As others have said the workplace environment sounds terrible and as they have only been there 10 months it's better than trying get them for unfair dismissal if there even is grounds for it.
Take the money. But be aware that PILON is taxable nowadays, so the old days where 3 months pretax = 5mo after don't count.
Can they negotiate, get it up to 5?
An "off-the-record" chat with HR present, FFS.
Look into whether company has breached its own disciplinary procedures, but ultimately as a lever for a bigger payoff rather than to stay.
Argee - i get the impression the manager is pretty flaky so you are never sure which way she is going to turn. She cant be a good manager to let this person go, they were headhunted by a few organisations so i trust they are a good employee with a good reputation. Either the manager feels threatened by them or something else is going on. Its just really bizarre and all very sudden.
Take the money and make sure they give a good reference as part of the deal.
I think negotiating upwards might be a good shout on the pretence that this cant be following any company procedures.
Perhaps I'm naive, but 3 months when they've only been there 10 months seems like a pretty good offer to me.
Honestly, I’d take the 3 months. Sounds like a toxic workplace, and getting paid to leave sounds ideal.
This, and/or...
If they’re are doing 60 hours a week, that’s not a model employee, that’s someone who is either overloaded (most likely) so the manager needs sacking or some detailed coaching, or struggling to cope with the job they’ve got themselves into (so the manager needs to reevaluate the employees workload and competence.)
Take the money, leave.
This.
Take the money, use the three months to find something else
on the pretence that this cant be following any company procedures.
No, actually check the company procedures.
HR should supply them on request.
One party consent in uk - you don’t need someone’s agreement to record a conversation- but it is considered reasonable.
I would take money and run - maybe ask for 5 months severance worth a go.
Turn the shady dealings back around on them and counter offer
6 months pay and they'll walk.
I'd be doing this. Sounds like a personality clash and / or a toxic workplace culture.
"Pay me 6 months pay as well as owed holiday + give my next employer a neutral reference. I'll sign a non-disclosure agreement and you'll never see or hear from me again" would be
my approach.
OP.
Send me your number if you want to discuss. I went through this recently.
( well 5 years ago)
2 strange things here:
1) HR are trying to keep it off the record. They don't need to. The law changed recently and it is now OK for a company to approach an employee and effectively say " we don't want you here, we can't be arsed with a formal procedure. We know you don't want a formal procedure. We want to give you £10grand to leave and no more will he said"
Stupidly I cant recall the formal name for this. It will come to me in a minute...
2) for this to be legal they have to tell you to get a solicitor to review it and provide a checkpoint. They will pay for that solicitor.
Tell her to go back and ask for 5 months, and then accept it.
Oh and if they don't do the solicitor thing then sue their arses off afterwards.
PS, the legal document should say it is no fault admission and confirm exactly what they will say on any future reference requests.
Turn the shady dealings back around on them and counter offer
6 months pay and they’ll walk.
I was about to say the same. I'd go in higher at 12 months though, and bargain from there. If you want rid of me that much, then up your offer, otherwise we go legal. Over to you...
Sounds like they're best off out of it, anyway. I wouldn't wan't to work for any company who thought this kind of thing was ok.
I take it you're looking for another job? I certainly would be
So whilst they need to follow a proper process, you really have no rights as an employee during the first two years - unless you can prove termination is due to discrimination. If the person in question is white, straight and male, 100% take the 3 months. If they think there is any form of discrimination then make a hard counter. Avoid going legal, it's stressful and possibly expensive (but bear in mind they will also want to avoid going legal as most of these cases get settled prior to a hearing as it's cheaper to do so)
regardless, they sound like a horrible bunch of ****s to work for - get out ASAP
Two things leap out at me here.
1) "We'll give you free money to go away quietly, otherwise [insert unsubstantiated threat here]" suggests that they're on shaky ground and they know it. I would absolutely be chancing my arm for a bigger golden handshake with a counter of "make it formal then, off you go."
2) If she's doing a 60-hour week and (presumably) not being paid for it then she's not a model employee, either they're taking the piss or she's an idiot. Either way, an exit strategy is her best move.
I've been here and at the time I gladly took the money and ran cos I couldn't wait to get out of there, the job made me ill and leaving felt like a huge weight had been lifted. In hindsight I now regret this decision, I wish I'd nailed them for it.
But don't listen to me, listen to people with better knowledge of employment law.
Pay me 6 months pay as well as owed holiday + give my next employer a neutral reference. I’ll sign a non-disclosure agreement and you’ll never see or hear from me again
No idea on the legalities, but this would be my approach too.
You'd not want to work in that kind of workplace anyway so you may as well get as much as you can off them to walk away.
They will pay for that solicitor.
Wow, is that a thing?
(aside: I thought "we can get rid for any / no reason" probation was six months, not two years?)
They will pay for that solicitor.
Wow, is that a thing?
Yes. I was amazed how hard they pushed on that. They wouldn't budge until I had one lined up.
As above Google SA and I'm sure it will stipulate this.
aside: I thought “we can get rid for any / no reason” probation was six months, not two years?
Used to be six months, changed a few years ago
(aside: I thought “we can get rid for any / no reason” probation was six months, not two years?)
2 years is employment tribunal rules.
I'd say that basically they are no longer wanted by their employer. Less than two years in, this is only going one way. The skill is here to get out with the minimum emotional and professional damage. Personally I'd value an assurance of a good reference over a few extra quid.
My wife works with a colleague who is red-hot at the work they do – but they are also an atmosphere sink who brings the whole feel of the office down.
Long term, this is the more important element. How do I put this.....are they an acquired taste as a personality? Would they be a difficult personality to line manage (or be line managed by if that is the situation) or be a colleague of? Are they opinionated with no off button or consciously or subconsciously insulting to others? It might not be them of course...but it might be. Is there anything they could learn about themselves and their relationship with others that could be applied to a future employment scenarios.
Used to be six months, changed a few years ago
Used to be one year. I don't recall it ever being 6 months.
Anyone else get the feeling there’s more too this? Possibly more than the OP knows?
I thought we were getting past 60hr weeks and sacrificing holiday time being a good thing? Is there a chance the manager has been trying to pull this person into line and it’s not happening? Work smarter, not harder springs to mind. There’s no mention of the manager being a **** in the past, so would be an odd change of approach (unless there really is just a clash)
On a hiding to nothing.
Less than 2 years service and they can just give notice without a reason.
Take the money and go.
How has it gone this far? *Their*
Walk away, there are jobs, sounds like they need a company that a) doesn't expect 60 hours weeks and b) doesn't allow people on leave to join work calls c) has better line managers and better values!
Point one, business sounds a like a toxic place, time to get out but then again you may not be seeing the full picture.
Point two, You have very few employment rights up to 2 years (used to be 1 year), probation periods are not part of employment law. Normally internal polices apply during the first 2 years, such as termination policies, in reality though they are easy to work around and you'll get very little out of a tribunal.
Point three, sounds like a protected conversation was had even if it was not described as such, it is dodgy as F but perfectly legal. In theory it allows an employer to make an ex-gratia payment to make an employee go away without prejudicing future proceedings, can be appropriate and in the employees interest in certain circumstances. In practice they can often be used to threaten employees as happened in my case.
The key bit is the length of service, 3 months pay given the circumstances is pretty good, the employee doesn't really have any negotiating position. In my case I had 4 years service so had some rights and a good case of winning a tribunal, leaving the office in an ambulance due to a stress induced collapse in a meeting is pretty hard to refute, walked with 6 months in the end. Even then I was advised by an employment solicitor 6 months pay was realistic, 12 months probably wasn't In this case I think it's a clear take it or leave it. Refuse the offer and their normal policies will kick, it'll get nasty and the employee will walk with a lot less.
Unless the employee can find something from discrimination law then you have very few rights until you tick off 2 years service. This does sound like a standard settlement / compromise agreement. Unfortunately if a company really wants rid of you then it pretty much can if it follows this template.
Getting only one side of the story, but at face value, take the money and a reference and run, though I'd be tempted to negotiate upwards just to see how desperate and messed up they were.
But if there was any chance this is discrimination, I'd be dragging them to a tribunal, but I'm a stubborn old man who doesn't like bullies and/or bigots.
A compromise agreement like this is what my company uses rather than formal redundancy. It may not be 100% legal but if you fight it you’ll lose even if you win. I agree with everyone else who say take the money and run.
My wife has been through this sort of thing a couple of times. Both occasions the company itself was toxic. She challenged one and got a six month pay off to go. The other was full of in-bred family members, and you weren't going to get through that lot.
Thegeneralist- thank you so much, that advice could be very valuable. I will see what unfolds over the next few days and if they want me too i might take you up on the offer of getting in touch. Sounds like you had a very similar scenario.
Everyone, dont worry i think the days of working for that organisation are long gone for them. I just think its a bit raw right now and anger is doing a lot of talking/thinking. I certainly think they will try and extort every penny they can as being unemployed is not really an option.
Compromise /Settlement agreement. They have to pay (up to £500 I think)? for an employment solicitor- it's a requirement that you have independent legal advice. They've made an opening offer, solicitor should be able to try and negotiate a counter, maybe getting 6 months settlement ( + of course, notice period paid out). Also suggest you supply the text that the company will use to respond to any future reference requests, and ensure that's written into the agreement, for obvious reasons.
2) for this to be legal they have to tell you to get a solicitor to review it and provide a checkpoint. They will pay for that solicitor.
and
Compromise /Settlement agreement. They have to pay (up to £500 I think)? for an employment solicitor- it’s a requirement that you have independent legal advice. They’ve made an opening offer, solicitor should be able to try and negotiate a counter, maybe getting 6 months settlement ( + of course, notice period paid out).
You sure that is the case before 2 years?
Before 2 years they could pull you aside and say, sorry chum not more work for you and here is your contractual notice and it would be legit (aside from protected characteristics provably having been a factor in the termination).
I guess the employer is muddying the waters by going further than required of them.
Not sure who mentioned it but this person definitely doesnt have any form of personality trait that would grate on people. It sounds to me like only the manager has a problem and unfortunately she has been there a long time and thus carries clout with the bean counters. This person has brought a lot of staff with them so they work great as a team and have definitely upped the ratings of the hospital. I just get the impression that either their face doesnt fit or something else is going on and they need this person out of the way. The hospital is under review next month and 2 of their other sites have done very badly and i think they are panicking and decided the best course of action is to get rid of this person and claim it was down to them and thats why they had to do something about it. I think it gives them some leeway with the review, its shitty but it wouldnt surprise me.
Some useful info from Citizens Advice on a settlement agreement: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/problems-at-work/making-a-settlement-agreement-with-your-employer/
One point the OP raised which stood out, was that if the individual didn't accept the offer the organisation would inform the governing body. This suggests either the individual has done something that may be considered wrong e.g. breaching British Medical Association regulations, otherwise such action would be libellous.
As mentioned by other posters you can only claim for Constructive Dismissal if you have been working for the employer for 2 years.
I would suggest getting an agreed reference as part of the settlement agreement.
One point the OP raised which stood out, was that if the individual didn’t accept the offer the organisation would inform the governing body. This suggests either the individual has done something that may be considered wrong e.g. breaching British Medical Association regulations, otherwise such action would be libellous.
Yes, overlooked that bit. Does the OP know what the employer would be informing this governing body about? Clearly no idea of the profession of the employee here, but I can't imagine many issues that would be reportable where it would be legitimate to negotiate the reporting. If it was reportable and you didn't by mutual consent with the 'offender' to ensure they go quietly that would be a serious black mark for the employer surely.
You sure that is the case before 2 years?
Before 2 years they could pull you aside and say, sorry chum not more work for you and here is your contractual notice and it would be legit (aside from protected characteristics provably having been a factor in the termination).
Good point. Not sure, tbh. The case I'm familiar with, the employment period was 6 months- this resulted in a 6 month payout + 3 months contractual notice.
Note: payout associated with the agreement isn't subject to tax below 30k, any portion attributed to pay in lieu of notice will be.
Philby - no breach of medical regs at all, i think what was said was that you either take the offer or we go down formal procedure and inform NMC as well. I am not sure what NMC does but the person told me they would be no help to them. I got the impression it was just a big bag of threats or take your notice period in pay and be quiet.
You sure that is the case before 2 years?
Before 2 years they could pull you aside and say, sorry chum not more work for you and here is your contractual notice
I think we're mixing stuff up here. You're quite correct that they could do that. They could do all sorts of things, some of which are open to challenge.
The SA is about avoiding the potential for that challenge.
I'm pretty sure an employer could offer an SA in the first week if they were daft enough to.
I was offered an SA less than 2 years. Although I think it was within my notice period of 2 years, which obviously makes it more complex.
Lots of talk about references but does the organisation even give references beyond the facts of 'yes this employee worked here doing x role between X and Y dates'. I find it pretty rare to get an emotive reference for people these days.
Apparently the offer is the notice period (3 months) and holiday owed so i guess subject to tax. Also there is a letter now in the post which they refused to show at the time so may be that will shed some light on it, not sure i will see that but you never know. It definitely sounds like a weird situation and this has all been done whilst they were on holiday which i guess is no coincidence. The more i think about it the more it sounds like the manager just doesnt like them for whatever reason. It will be interesting to see what happens to the staff that were brought in as they are all up for there 6 month probation meeting shortly. They have no idea that the person who brought them in is about to go.
On a hiding to nothing.
Less than 2 years service and they can just give notice without a reason.
Take the money and go.
AFAIK the 2 year rule only applies if they don't hold and employment contract that states a shorter probation period.
Personally, I'd speak to the solicitor, what's the harm? Make a decision based on the facts.
Sounds a weird place to work though.
Lots of talk about references but does the organisation even give references beyond the facts of ‘yes this employee worked here doing x role between X and Y dates’. I find it pretty rare to get an emotive reference for people these days.
Yeah, but it's removing the possibility of one being given.
Anyone saying anything other than take the money has never been in a situation where a Manager/Director wants rid of them.
Advise them to take the money and demand it paid ASAP in lieu of notice (as much tax free as possible) while they clear their desk.
You say the organisation is a hospital, and I would suggest NMC therefore stands for Nursing and Midwifery Council.
It sounds like there's all sorts of sh*tty behaviour happening at this medical establishment. Maybe your friend should think about whistleblowing to the appropriate bodies if this behaviour is prevalent - the news has recently featured the horrendous issues in Maternity departments of the Shrewsbury and Telford NHS Trust where people didn't report problems when they were arising.
Hope it all resolves itself.
Sounds like this person is better of out of there for many reasons, however is it possible the offer of 3 months money is negotiable? Probably. Providing they really have done nothing wrong I'd be checking up on the legality of the informal meeting with HR that should not be recorded or spoken of (very weird in itself), and the fact that they've been told they're not to talk to anyone about the offer made. Assuming this isn't legit, then let them know that and ask for 2 years money, negotiate down from there to potentially end up at 12 months (don't forget that's taxable).
Its very definitely shitty behaviour and very weird, they sound like a bunch of shithouses to me. I would not like to work there thats for sure.
I think a clarification as to whether this is a settlement agreement they are offering is the first order. Then a negotiation of said agreement and then get the hell out of dodge. I will also mention that they request a solicitor and that this would be at the expense of the company.
As much as i would like to tell them to threaten them with everything, i think it might be best to be cordial for the time being.
Solicitor should be paid for by the employer I got redundancy payout upped by 3k and 2extra month’s salary after refusing initial botched offer and them paying for solicitor (£500) Lol good luck to you friend sounds a shit place to be some of my initial discussions were “off the records” bastards
Apparently the offer is the notice period (3 months) and holiday owed so I guess subject to tax.
Change the SA so the offer is £xxx and makes no reference to notice periods.
I paid no tax on my SA
( other realities are available)
Anyone saying anything other than take the money has never been in a situation where a Manager/Director wants rid of them.
I pretty much agree, but do ask for more. Don't take their first 9ffer.
Definitely keep it civil, first because it's not worth the additional stress, second because somebody behaving firmly but rationally would be a greater concern to me than someone shouting the odds and making stupid demands.
Re tax, generalist makes a good point - maybe ask for net £x and let them worry about the bigger number to cover the tax.
The plot has slightly thickened. They have sent a settlement agreement which is what i previously stated and is valid till 14th March. The first paragraph states the reason as been the concerns they outlined in the probation period meeting which the manager then quashed the next day after she reflected on the reason and deemed it not valid.
Company procedure seems to stipulate that that meeting and its minutes/results have to be written up and sent to persons concerned. This was never an official meeting and was never written up, it was an informal chat between the director and my friend. Nothing written up at all about any concerns and my friend didnt even know those concerns even existed. They said they will provide legal assistance up to £250+VAT.
Solicitor should be paid for by the employer I got redundancy payout upped by 3k and 2extra month’s salary after refusing initial botched offer and them paying for solicitor (£500) Lol good luck to you friend sounds a shit place to be some of my initial discussions were “off the records” too bastards
legality of the informal meeting with HR that should not be recorded or spoken of
That's what I thought when it happened to me, I wanted to record the meeting on my phone. After taking legal advice and some Googling I roundabout it was a thing, had a row with TJ on here about it which to his credit he came back after some research confirmed what I had found out.
The 2 years thing is important as no solicitor is going into battle for that length of service and if they are the costs will be nuts, only exception is if they can prove discrimination. Constructive dismisal is hard to prove and has limited layouts. The employer contribution is to get a solicitor to sign off the compromise agreement, it isn't there for the solicitor to up the pay out. Cost me around £800 for my solicitor yo write a couple letters to bump up my pay out but then I had a half decent case, the HR team were rubbish and I knew I wasn't the first to out with an SA and 6 months plus notice.
Talking of TJ is he taking break? Surprised he's not all over this one.
Edit OPs latest update is consistent with a protected meeting and standard SA. Sounds like the employer knows what they are doing evenn if it is shitty.
AFAIK the 2 year rule only applies if they don’t hold and employment contract that states a shorter probation period.
wrong - probation period is largely irrelevant here.
Apparently the offer is the notice period (3 months) and holiday owed so I guess subject to tax.
that doesn't seem like a settlement agreement then - that's just the notice they have to give you to terminate your contract! There's no suggestion that its gross misconduct so they are offering you the minimum your contract says. The only thing you might be getting is not expected to work the notice period - but be in no doubt they really don't want you to work your notice, firstly because they don't like you and secondly because when you are firing an employee the damage they can do in that time is huge, even if you were the most professional person in the world the reputation / morale damage would not make it worth it.
Take their £250 and go see a solicitor, that might not be enough, but you may have insurance to cover the rest? At the very least the solicitor will make sure the letter is better written than their HR processes seem to be!
If no better offer can be gain then take it and "off the record" find out what the issue is. If they refuse the evidence then once you have the cash spread the word through the other employees about the bad blood.
This happens all the time, as someone said up there, it's a settlement agreement and what your friend has had is a "without prejudice" conversation, which keeps it off record.
Only thing I'd be wary of is talking about it like this on a bike forum if they intend to accept it might find they're breaching the agreement. They should also have a solicitor check the agreement (they should offer to cover the cost).
Edit - just realised I've repeated a lot of what's already been said! They also sound like they don't really know what they're doing (the company).
The plot has slightly thickened.
Start documenting things, right now. Who what where when.
she doesnt hold the core values of the company
It could be an old fashioned personality conflict but the phraseology is wrong
It could be she has a protected characteristic that someone doesn't like
It could be that she has tripped over someone else's protected characteristic
I'd suggest she checks her social media presence for something that could have given offence, even seemingly innocuous stuff can be a trigger if someone is looking for it