[Closed] Transgender children at school...

If a six year old child believes he's a giraffe does that make him a giraffe?

Nope.

Not really the same thing though. This is about how the kids want to present themselves.

If a six year old child believes he's a giraffe does that make him a giraffe?

Whats that got to do with anything?

If a six year old child believes he's a giraffe does that make him a giraffe?

The boy remains a boy. No-one's in denial about this. But he wants to wear a dress. And so what if he does? Why should anyone care?

How hard can it be to dictate to, manipulate or programme a 6 yr old child? 🙄

Tell the child the earth is square and the child will accept that. 😆

Tell the child pigs used to fly and the child will accept that. 😛

Nobody should care let alone another kid's parents. Labelling the child 'trans' would be reason to be concerned though.

Calling the child 'trans' would be reason to be concerned though.

Especially if the kid is overweight. Cos trans fat is considered bad now.

How hard can it be to dictate to, manipulate or programme a 6 yr old child?

I'm going to assume you're not a parent then chewkw? 😆

Tell him/her the earth is square and the child will accept that.

Well they won't - but you have a point. The child of those "Christians" is probably a lot more accepting of the situation than they are.

I heard the R4 interview, and they got a soft ride. They also appeared to come across as lacking in social skills and awareness themselves. The tell was when he said "boys are boys and girls are girls".

Well, in 1950 maybe, but nowadays when we have a much better understanding of gender, identify and sexuality - and they are not necessarily linked.

I think that's where the parents showed their real failing. They seemed to link gender with sexuality, and it's a whooooole lot more complex than that.

Adrian Chiles on R5 later gave them a bit of a spikier time and they got a bit grumpy, which was nice.

They failed to grasp that there is nothing new in gender identity, just that in a more modern age we have a better understanding that not everyone is comfortable in the body their in, with how they and othesr identify them, and the expectations society places on them.

Schools try and deal with this as it's a damn sight easier than having to deal with little boys intent on cutting their penis off and or growing up with a feeling of such little self worth and concept of self that they end up taking their own lives

but hey, at least two idiots from the Isle of Wight got to try throw a spanner in the works, and employ a rabidly evangelical lawyer with form to do this for them in the process.

Labelling the child 'trans' would be reason to be concerned though.

I'd agree that labels aren't particularly helpful. The kids should just be free to dress in whichever uniform they feel comfortable in. If my daughter wanted to wear trousers to school I'd be all for it. Completely aside from any gender issue, they are a lot more practical when it comes to larking about.

Boys are indeed boys and girls are indeed girls, but why should boys not wear dresses? Give me ONE good reason.

Tell the child the earth is square and the child will accept that.

Tell the child pigs used to fly and the child will accept that.

I've told my kids that Brexit will work out fine and that Trump is the best president EVA!

Its the whole Pink vs Blue - Skirt vs Trousers - Football vs Netball thing I don't get.

All of these are fairly recent artificial gender markers.
So any "choice" certainly isn't drive by biology.

Do Scottish gender fluid boys refuse to wear kilts ?
Did Victorian dads thrash their boys until they were willing to wear manly pink ?

Or is the real problem society and the media selling an image onto kids far to young to have developed a sense of self let alone a sex

but why should boys not wear dresses? Give me ONE good reason.

OK then, dresses are not designed for pissing at a urinal.

GrahamS - Member

How hard can it be to dictate to, manipulate or programme a 6 yr old child?

I'm going to assume you're not a parent then chewkw?

I can assure you that in Borneo one of our traditional pastime is to tell scary stories to scare the shite out of every kids we know ... It's compulsory I kid you not. 😆

We used to tell kids all sort of B-shite scary stories then tell the children to ask the parents then laughed our head off later on ... yes, we did. 😆

In the UK you might call that "child abuse" but in Borneo it is a favourite traditional story telling ... the child would be scared to the hilt but then when they reach certain age, they would understand all in the name of growing up and to build up "immunity". 😆

[quote=martinhutch ]I've told my kids that Brexit will work out fine and that Trump is the best president EVA!

How hard can it be to dictate to, manipulate or programme chewy?

A thought: did the six year old boy have an older sister so dresses were available?
At six years old I wore whatever was given to me, though I did like my superman trainers 'cause the tread went right up over the toe so you could run up walls.

I can assure you that in Borneo one of our traditional pastime is to tell scary stories to scare the shite out of every kids we know ...

Isn't there a danger that they grow up a bit wrong in the head with all sorts of weird ideas about maggots, zombie and the like?

How hard can it be to dictate to, manipulate or programme chewy?

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molgrips - Member 

Boys are indeed boys and girls are indeed girls, but why should boys not wear dresses? Give me ONE good reason.

Because the world is full of arseholes, and perhaps 6 is a bit young to make a public statement about being transgender with all the discrimination and BS that sadly still goes with it.

My personal view is that six is too young to know that one's gender is 'wrong' and that for an adult to suggest or encourage a child to dress, act or behave in any particular manner is harmful and potentially negligent. Any child will have phases of behaviour.

Pretty much my personal view aswell.

OK then, dresses are not designed for pissing at a urinal.

[img] [/img]

OK then, dresses are not designed for pissing at a urinal.

OK then, dresses are not designed for pissing at a urinal.

You've never been out in Newcastle I see.

aracer - Member

martinhutch » I've told my kids that Brexit will work out fine and that Trump is the best president EVA!

How hard can it be to dictate to, manipulate or programme chewy?

GrahamS - Member
Isn't there a danger that they grow up a bit wrong in the head with all sorts of weird ideas about maggots, zombie and the like?

Rachael, that female urinal is just a poor proof of concept. Unlike a genuine urinal your legs would inevitably touch either side and get covered in other people's piss.

OK then, dresses are not designed for pissing at a urinal.

As a semi-regular kilt-wearer, it's not that hard.

It's a way to distinguish between bullshite and reality.

Doesn't seem that effective to be honest 😆

Boys are indeed boys and girls are indeed girls, but why should boys not wear dresses? Give me ONE good reason.

Because the world is full of arseholes, and perhaps 6 is a bit young to make a public statement about being transgender with all the discrimination and BS that sadly still goes with it.

A boy wearing a dress isn't necesarily identifying as transgender, they're just a boy wearing a dress.

My personal view is that six is too young to know that one's gender is 'wrong' and that for an adult to suggest or encourage a child to dress, act or behave in any particular manner is harmful and potentially negligent. Any child will have phases of behaviour.

Pretty much my personal view aswell.

The only adults telling a six-year-old to dress in a particular manner are the ones who made the complaint. Everyone else was quite happy letting the six-year-old wear whatever he wanted to wear.

enfht - Member
That ladies urinal is just a poor proof of concept. Unlike the genuine urinal your legs would inevitably touch either side and get covered in other people's piss.

GrahamS - Member

It's a way to distinguish between bullshite and reality.

Doesn't seem that effective to be honest

However they are entitled to their opinion, not something that goes down well here.

Folks are entitled to whatever opinion they chose - they are also entitled to the rebuttal they get..

Quite tempted to get myself a male cut dress actually. Just because.

OK then, dresses are not designed for pissing at a urinal.

I teach in a large sixth form college in a market town in the north east of England.

25 years ago, when I was a student here, there was only one openly gay student.

A few years ago we started to get a few trans* students, but they were very quiet and everything was very hush-hush and whispered.

We now have loads of openly gay, trans*, non-binary, genderfluid, asexual, whatever students and nobody gives a shit. It's brilliant.

Ok, here goes...

For those who say that 6 is too young to know about gender you are wrong.

I've never said this in public before but I am gender fluid and I've known this since my very earliest memory.

At nursery school I wanted to play with the dolls and dressing up stuff because that's where I felt "right". I was made to play with the cars and guns with the boys because that is what boys did.

At primary school I wanted to wear the same summer dresses as the girls and have long hair. Unlike today though there was no understanding, just an evil old bitch of a teacher who beat boys for crying, or showing any emotion with a metre long wooden ruler. I was a very unhappy child!

However these feelings of femininity were not continuous and still aren't which is why I never transitioned. Probably half my time in in male mode and half in female mode.

Now, 40 years on I'm in a great relationship with a partner who is happy for me to be who I need to be, and on warm days I'm more likely to be found wandering around Scotland in a skirt than trousers and shorts. As of yet I've never had more than a raised eyebrow.

But if I'd been able to express myself and be 'me" from an early age, I may well not have had all the mental health problems which dogged most of my adult life including some close escapes with suicide.

Please let your children be who they want to be. Don't judge, because it's not a choice and not something anyone would choose. It's a desperate need to be able to be me.

That's it really. Be gentle...

Brave statement boriselbrus. Glad things are a bit better for you now.

Please let your children be who they want to be. Don't judge, because it's not a choice and not something anyone would choose. It's a desperate need to be able to be me.

+1.

As they say....."Thanks for sharing..."

boriselbrus - cap doffed to you, old fruit*. Stories like yours do far more to change entrenched attitudes than the couple who inspired this thread.

*nearly typed 'old chap' but, you know.... 😀

Calling the child 'trans' would be reason to be concerned though.

Especially if the kid is overweight. Cos trans fat is considered bad now.

Delete your account.

Brave statement boriselbrus.

Indeed. Well said, that can't have been easy.

Again, well said.

I always thought trans fatty acid was a kind of dance music for northerners.
😐

Hug boris

[s]I wouldn't give a damn who my kids were at school with. I tried to read between the lines in this story and there is one thing that concerns me. I find it hard to believe a 6 year old has any idea what gender they are, and it would be a mistake to pick one if[/s]
Edit see below some kind of double post issue.

In the far east even in a 60% moslamic country we don't really give much attention to a person's gender. i.e. 3rd gender/trans etc because it is no big deal and in some areas common. (however recently with extreme thinking things might have changed a bit ... )

However, at school or at work (public institution) the person must wear the clothing according to their gender. A must. i.e. the gender they are born with physically, and if they have transitioned by reassigning their gender to a different one then be that gender. Cannot be both at the same time in public office. If the person is working for a private company nobody cares or gives a monkey and the person can be superman nobody cares.

Beyond school or work nobody gives a monkey about gender coz it's a private matter. Be whatever they wish ...

incorrect facts

Wha?

Well spoken Boriselbus very honest of you.

I'm more likely to be found wandering around Scotland in a skirt than trousers and shorts.

A traditionalist too. 😉

I wouldn't give a damn who my kids were at school with. Boriselbrus, I admire your approach. To me if you find that conventional definitions of gender and the way you dress and look do not fit with the way you are, then picking one is a mistake. Wear what you want, have sex with who you want.
If we had less rigid ideas about how a man and a woman should behave and appear then I think this would not be an issue in any way and the world would be a much nicer place.

Cannot be both at the same time in public office. If the person is working for a private company nobody cares

Seems like an odd distinction. Why is that?

Wait... genderfluid?

*heads off to google*

Huh. Well the more you know.

[quote=enfht ]Rachael, that female urinal is just a poor proof of concept.

Piss poor?

Thanks for that boris - I'm more than happy to defer to experience. I suppose those of us who identify as the same gender as the bits we have aren't so conscious of gender identity because it's not really something we've ever had to think about.

Thanks for posting boriselbrus - can't have been easy. I'm glad you're in a good place now.

But if I'd been able to express myself and be 'me" from an early age, I may well not have had all the mental health problems which dogged most of my adult life including some close escapes with suicide

Cis hetero people also benefit from society becoming more progressive and accepting, rather than feeling confined to traditional male/female gender studies stereotypes. Everyone's a winner.

EDIT - Probably irrelevant

Social gender isn't the same as biological gender anyway. There are plenty of instances of non-binary gender positions coming up in cultures all over the world throughout history.

because it's not really something we've ever had to think about.

I wonder if that is really true/correct. I mean you may have considered playing with girls toys and wearing dresses as a small child and just got redirected by your parents. It might not have seemed worth fighting over at age 3 so maybe you brushed it off and followed the herd. Can you remember back that far?

GrahamS - Member

Cannot be both at the same time in public office. If the person is working for a private company nobody cares

Seems like an odd distinction. Why is that?

The difference between the west and the east regarding gender is this.

1. In the west it's all in your face thing by insisting it is a public matter by involving everyone, whether they like it or not.

2. In the far east nobody makes it a big deal by insisting on gaining recognition, coz it's more of a private matter. Everyone knows there are many genders long long time ago. A fact. Their attitude is "so you want to be a different gender so what? What's the big deal? Nobody cares so long as it is at your own time.

Just forced myself to listen to the parents being interviewed by Adrian Chile's. They dont have a clue why the are protesting. They tried saying it was out of love for the other child, then they said he needed medical help, then they said he shouldn't be allowed to change anything until he is 18. They asked where would it stop and questioned what would happen if he identified with being a lion.

Complete idiots.

What about this one then?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stefonknee-wolschtt-transgender-father-leaves-family-in-toronto-to-start-new-life-as-a-six-year-old-a6769051.html

5plusn8 - Member
What about this one then?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stefonknee-wolschtt-transgender-father-leaves-family-in-toronto-to-start-new-life-as-a-six-year-old-a6769051.html

boriselbrus - don't start coming in here and spouting all that stuff. No-one said you could steal all the limelight 😉

Rachel

I find it almost impossible to understand how trans or gender fluid people must feel. That's not to say I doubt them or their feelings are any less valid but I think maybe it's one of those things you can't really understand if you haven't experienced it yourself. Perhaps that's part of the problem with the dinosaurs like these parents - people are afraid of what they don't understand.

Having said that, I can't for the life of me understand why any rational, sane individual would give the slightest shit what someone else wants to do with THEIR LIFE. Why not just let them get on with it?

There is some conjecture on this thread about the six year old in question and if they are too young to know. That may or may not be correct (I genuinely don't know) but surely the most important thing is that the kid is happy. If that means that right now they're happy wearing a dress then fine, maybe in a year or two they decide it's not for them, maybe they decide they are a girl. Quite honestly, aside from the child and their family it's no-one else's business. Yours and my only responsibly as members of the human race is to be at least respectful of their feelings.

[quote=5plusn8 ]I mean you may have considered playing with girls toys and wearing dresses as a small child and just got redirected by your parents. It might not have seemed worth fighting over at age 3 so maybe you brushed it off and followed the herd. Can you remember back that far?

God no - can't even really remember anything much before I was about 10. But then that may be because there wasn't much to remember - given I don't have any issues with gender identity now I doubt I had any then (not if I was so easily redirected), and TBH I'm not sure wanting to play with "girls" toys* or wear dresses is a gender issue at that age anyway, it's just kids playing with no concept of gender. boriselbrus's experience was clearly considerably different to mine.

*WTF is a "girls toy" or a "boys toy" for a 3yo anyway? Right there we have part of the issue.

Two things really upset me listening to that interview this morning.

1 - The couple said several times that they didn't mind people with gender issues, but it should be private, away from public, I forget the wording but they basically meant "Hide it away, shove where no-one can see, where we don't have to face it, or think about it... just airbrush it away please." Which I would imagine is about the most dangerous thing any young person, or older person for that matter, can hear while dealing with questions about their identity.

2 - The second was that there is a young person somewhere who has been handling something complicated, pretty well it would seem, and everyone around them were dealing with in the way they should, no fuss, acceptance etc. Then this insular attention seeking couple kick up such a fuss and go and every media outlet that will take them. I doubt that 6 year will be fully hidden from this, it probably isn't possible, and there's a chance all the past efforts will be undone. Just cos he was being himself/herself.

*WTF is a "girls toy" or a "boys toy" for a 3yo anyway? Right there we have part of the issue.

Well put unklehomerd

Why don't men wear dresses anyway?

Why don't men wear dresses anyway?

They call them Kilts, well that's a skirt.

Tunics are another example.

Why don't men wear dresses anyway?

Because of horse riding, custom and practice came after

Why don't men wear dresses anyway?

Even the native men of Papua New Guinea don't wear skirts for practical reasons. It's just impractical coz you cannot let your genitals swing and slap on your thighs all the time when you run, walk etc. 🙄

You can wear underpants under a dress can't you?

Why don't men wear dresses anyway?

molgrips - Member
You can wear underpants under a dress can't you?

Yes, you can 😆

I was referring to the reasons that man generally need to wear something to prevent them catching "cold". 😆

It used to be common for all boys to wear dresses up to their Breeching age (typically between 2 and 8):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeching_(boys)

You can wear underpants under a dress can't you?

Not in Scotland 😀

"Suuuuuuwing loooow sweat charrrriot.."

molgrips - Member

Why don't men wear dresses anyway?

some do.

Let's not ignore the wider issue, should gender identity determine gender?

enfht - Member
Let's not ignore the wider issue, should gender identity determine gender?

I think I might be a lesbian coz I love women ... 😆

I reckon I'd look awesome in a dress; my kids say I've got Taylor Swift's legs.

Men are not allowed to wear dresses at my work.

Let's not ignore the wider issue, should gender identity determine gender?

You mean "Should we force people to conform to our ideas about gender identity or just learn to accept that people are different?"

Put me down for the latter please.

Men are not allowed to wear dresses at my work.

Women can't wear them at my work.

They can at mine.

No GrahamS, the points you miss are the wider implications raised in the video that you didn't watch. I'd rate you 5 on the Outraged Scale.