[Closed] Transgender children at school...

I wonder how their poor little darling handles girls who wear trousers?

Pretty much this:

http://newsthump.com/2017/09/11/christian-parents-suing-school-for-letting-boy-wear-dress-spend-every-sunday-listening-to-man-in-a-dress/

I heard that on the way to work today.
It made me so angry. Why on earth did they get the air time? Why was no one there to challenge their utter utter ****. The presenter didn't challenge it either. Really disappointing with that piece. Lots incorrect facts and many myths spread by them.

I volunteer at a local youth club. It's so nice to see how progressive the young people are. They don't care about age, race, gender, social background. In fact, the kids encourage each other to be themselves and to push past any social anxieties to be what they want to be.

These people need to go crawl back under their rock. There's no place for them in this day and age. I feel sorry for their kids..

I heard part of the interview as well, my 7 year old was very confused by the whole thing.

Told her she could wear what she wanted to school as long as it complies with the school uniform, she's happy in a skirt though apparently (my 2 year old insisted on a man bun at the front of his head with a loomband, takes all sorts)

Fair play to the school though, they seem to have handled it really rather well.

I wonder how their poor little darling handles girls who wear trousers?

i listened to the R4 interview driving into work this morning and I don't think it was the child that had the issues...yet.

In the end of the day if you have a problem with other people you are the problem. People want to live in their bubble and pretend the world isn't going on harking back to the good old days where people were told to repress themselves and hide it all.

It's kind of interesting that a Church Of England school is doing something that the parents feel [i]"conflicts with their Christian beliefs"[/i].

That suggests that either a church-run school is operating outside what the church believes, or that the parents beliefs aren't entirely "Christian".

Those parents really need to address the main issues here ...and get to a decent hairdresser as soon as possible.

Good job they've never met this guy...
[img] [/img]

Is that The Zohan ?

That suggests that either a church-run school is operating outside what the church believes, or that the parents beliefs aren't entirely "Christian".

Not really, all faiths have spectrums of interpretations in their texts, faith and what is or isn't compliant behaviours

Only atheism appears be without such nuance

Reading the article it seems they have "previous" over the same issue a couple of years ago.

[quote=chakaping ]Good job they've never met this guy...

Yup
[img] [/img]

Hah.

They actually look like religious whackos as well - wonder how many of their ancestors moved to the mid-west.

[img] [/img]

Not really, all faiths have spectrums of interpretations in their texts, faith and what is or isn't compliant behaviours

Only atheism appears be without such nuance

The Dad said

it's very confusing, how is a child meant to deal with that

It's not really confusing, perhaps get your kids to explain it as it is likely they will be much more accepting and understanding than the parents.

I wanted to rant about how we shouldn't be allowing religions to run or fund schools but, surprisingly, it sounds like the school is handling this very well.

i listened to the R4 interview driving into work this morning and I don't think it was the child that had the issues...yet.

yes

quite depressing

Well Kimbers, do you expect stupid people to act rationally when perfectly intelligent people won't give their kids say a polio vaccine because they read something on the internet?

As a poster above, I heard the story on radio 4 this morning whilst taking my 7 year old to school. Before the interview she asked if she could have radio 1 on, and for once I was happy to oblige.

[s]Mr and Mrs Rowe[/s]I say the [s]school's[/s]parents handling of the situation did not show proper regard for the possible long-term emotional and psychological effects for [s]the two young children seeking to change gender[/s]their children, or for the confusion and concern caused to other people by the suggestion that boys are not always boys, and girls are not always girls.

Fixed it for them

However they are entitled to their opinion, not something that goes down well here.

However they are entitled to their opinion, not something that goes down well here.

Opinion is fine, but removing your child from school to prove a point crosses a line.

Opinion is fine, but removing your child from school to prove a point crosses a line.

indeed, cant be good for the transgender kid presumably already having a tough time of things

and the kid removed from school loses out on friends and education because their parents bigotry is mandated by religion- (kid confused my arse! hes confused because his blinkered upbringing doesnt fit well with the real world)

no one wins

Indeed.. opinion is one thing, but destroying your child's life and spreading hate on one of the nations largest media platforms is quite another.

Why not invite Daesh on? May as well ask the Neo-Nazies to join too..

Because, for some bizarre reason, the media feels a need to provide "balance" on this issue. It's a bit like having climate change deniers like Nigel Lawson on.

Except, of course, you don't get bullied and denied your existence for being affected by climate change, unlike the > 40% trans youth that attempt to take their own life.

Rachel

mattsccm - Member
However they are entitled to their opinion, not something that goes down well here.

Except, of course, you don't get bullied and denied your existence for being affected by climate change,

What a nice white-centric point of view, I think those in equatorial regions may beg to differ. 😀

Only atheism appears be without such nuance

Admittedly it's a binary thing, rather than picking and choosing beliefs to suit your prejudices.

Tom_W1987 - true

However they are entitled to their opinion, not something that goes down well here.

No, it's people being bell ends that doesn't go down well.

I'm also disappointed the BBC would give these morons a platform. They should be aware of the flaws in their concept of "balance" (as referenced by Rachel). I thought that was one of the clearest lessons from the Brexit omnishambles,

As a someone bought up in a small, conservative farming city in the 1960's I can only marvel at how much the world has changed, when I compare my attitudes and behaviours as a 12 year old with those of my daughter today- though reading stuff like this shows there's a long way to go still.

I guess it's difficult for those parents to read about and understand and empathise with stuff like this, but entrenched attitudes can take generations to overcome- TG probably didn't even figure on their radar 5 years ago, some people are still barely coping with the LG bit let alone the B. World's changing very quickly.

I've always found it very sad, but I guess indicative of people's need to control others that when offered up the mix of good and bad that Christianity encompasses most believers focus on the 'don't do this' behavioural stuff, rather than the positives.

And then, one Thursday, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change...

WWJD

[i]wonder how many of their ancestors moved to the mid-west.[/i]
No need really:
[i]school on the Isle of Wight[/i]

Im glad all this lgbt trans bollocks didnt exist when I was at school. Any boy who came in wearing girls clothes would have quite rightly been mercilessly abused.

have a friend who has a daughter in a class with a kid that is gender neutral (both 10 years old). being good parents they wanted to discuss this to deal with any questions or confusion. and amazingly none of the kids are remotely bothered which seems like a great blueprint for the future...

as far as the parents on the bbc - they toiled to pinpoint the actual issue which they have which i suspect its no more their own hang ups.

Im glad all this lgbt trans bollocks didnt exist when I was at school. Any boy who came in wearing girls clothes would have quite rightly been mercilessly abused.

They did exist at your school. They always have. They were too scared, for good reason apparently, to live their life authentically and a great percentage of them will have suffered serious mental health issues because of that fear.

What a thing to be glad about.

Rachel

There will be members of this forum with children who are questioning their gender identity. It just comes down to numbers. There are some really great support groups to provide help - especially Mermaids http://www.mermaidsuk.org.uk

Rachel

oldtalent - Member
Im glad all this lgbt trans bollocks didnt exist when I was at school. Any boy who came in wearing girls clothes would have quite rightly been mercilessly abused.

It's kind of interesting that a Church Of England school is doing something that the parents feel "conflicts with their Christian beliefs".

That suggests that either a church-run school is operating outside what the church believes, or that the parents beliefs aren't entirely "Christian".

I don't think that "Church of England" and "Christian" are fully interchangeable. Christians have a very wide range of beliefs. Even C of E Christians don't interpret everything equally.

The parents in the interview seemed to think that there are boys and girls and boys should dress in shorts or trousers and girls in dresses, but I don't think this is part of Christian, let alone C of E dogma. In fact my bible is full of pictures of men wearing what look like dresses, as people did in Palestine c. 30 AD. Presumably we've become more Christian since Christ.

quite rightly been mercilessly abused.

their parents bigotry is mandated by religion

The Rowes say the suggestion that gender is fluid conflicts with their Christian beliefs as a family and they are seeking a legal challenge against the school's actions.

I am not fully conversant with the teachings of Jesus, but I'm pretty sure it he has nothing to say on the subject gender fluidity.

Where, therefore does this 'Christian' belief originate?

oldtalent - Member

Im glad all this lgbt trans bollocks didnt exist when I was at school. Any boy who came in wearing girls clothes would have quite rightly been mercilessly abused.

And the Bellend Of The Day Award goes to....

but that quote reads like that is your opinion of today

That quote reads like he's taking the piss...

Where, therefore does this 'Christian' belief originate?

It's not a Christian belief. It's a belief held by some people who identify as Christians. Doesn't mean that it applies to the rest of us.

There's a girl in my office who is about six foot two, strikingly pretty with long blonde hair.
She fervently supports Heart of Midlothian football club and identifies as a lesbian.

That doesn't make being a Jambo a "Lesbian Belief"

That quote reads like he's taking the piss...

school on the Isle of Wight

Does it make me racist that I assumed they were from Norfolk or Linconshire?

It is nice to read that most posts say ... when their children have experienced this they are completely not bothered by it at all. It seems the adults are the ones that get all steamed up about the subject.

big_n_daft - Member
Only atheism appears be without such nuance

Atheism isn't a faith.

Apologies in advance if this is offensive (I don't think it is but there you go)

Is six years old not a little young to be calling the child transgender. He's six ffs he can wear what he likes when my lad was younger he walked around in a onesie with his sisters pink ballet skirt on and a Halloween bucket on his head whilst wearing wellies Then he went thru a shirt and trousers stage and Now at eight he appears to want to walk around dressed like a chav.

His sister who's ten likes dolls and Princess things but wears jeans most of the time and trousers to school

They are not trans or confused they are just little kids. If later in life that changes then so be it but for now they don't need labels they need freedom and fun like all kids

They did exist at your school. They always have.

Very much this. You can't shield kids from stuff you're not comfortable with, but you can do your utmost to prepare them. Perhaps a great start would be to explain that we used to live in less enlightened times and a lot of people had to hide out of fear, so that a small minority of bigoted snowflakes might avoid being mortally offended because an individual doesn't conform to someone else's norms that are imposed upon them.

Where, therefore does this 'Christian' belief originate?

Isn't god gender neutral ?

[img] [/img]

I once had a heated discussion with a bloke who insisted that Jesus, a middle eastern man with some Ethiopian heritage, was in fact a white bloke with blond hair and beard.

Sometimes the most obvious truths subvert.

Firestarter - don't think what you've said is offensive but I think you're confusing dress sense with gender identity (which is not unreasonable as they are linked). I can't speak for any trans person but those I have spoken to said that they've always just known *something* was up with their gender and some of them took longer to figure it out than others.

As an aside - why do all fundamentalist "Christians" have such bad hair?

I have bad hair, are you calling me a Christian fundamentalist?

As an aside - why do all fundamentalist "Christians" have such bad hair?

From wearing bicycle helmets.

but I think you're confusing dress sense with gender identity (which is not unreasonable as they are linked)

Or lack of it...

😆

FWIW Firestarter, I had an interesting discussion about gender with my 7yo daughter the other day (following on, in my mind, from the "No More Boys and Girls" documentary and, in her mind, from the final episode of Annedroids where [i]*Spoilers*[/i] PAL decides they don't want to be a boy or a girl 😀 ).

Anyway, my daughter said she sometimes felt like she was a boy. 😯

I very delicately attempted to prise this apart a little and she revealed it was because she liked playing football and karate, and she liked playing with boys. 🙄

Fair enough but at that age to me it's way too young. I wonder if the parents are perhaps making the same mistake regarding clothing and gender more than the childs actual behaviour

If people didn't make such a bloody fuss out of the whole thing, it wouldn't matter, would it? 🙄

Rachel

I have bad hair, are you calling me a Christian fundamentalist?

Four Sur he is.
Get your pentecostalist ass to a hair stylist now.

allthegear - Member

If people didn't make such a bloody fuss out of the whole thing, it wouldn't matter, would it?

Rachel

all too true. Really I don't care what others do so long as it doesn't affect me. I personally have great difficulty in understanding the feelings of the people identifying as gender fluid / neutral / trans but thats my problem. It has precisely zero impact on me so what business of mine is it?

If it doesn't hurt anyone else it shouldn't matter to anyone else.

It's not a Christian belief. It's a belief held by some people who identify as Christians. Doesn't mean that it applies to the rest of us.

In part, this is the point I was trying to make, the Rowes appear to be making up their own beliefs and labelling them 'Christian'.

Jesus was silent on Homosexuality as well - though Paul had a few things to say. I don't think Gender fluidity was a widely known concept in first century Judea - another very good reason not be be trying to run the world according to a set of heavily edited texts from two millennia ago, makes the intervening progress in human affairs rather pointless.

Anyway, my daughter said she sometimes felt like she was a boy

My daughter thinks that she was meant to have been born an otter.

Kids up to the age of about 6 tend to be the most open minded, non judgmental brilliant examples to all of us.

It's always revealing how, even though I'm sure they believe the rest of their child's godless classmates and their parents are probably going to hell, their focus is entirely to do with gender issues.

Why not remove their kids because their mates don't know Jesus or go to church?

My [u]personal[/u] view is that six is too young to [i]know [/i] that one's gender is 'wrong' and that for an adult to suggest or encourage a child to dress, act or behave in any particular manner is harmful and potentially negligent. Any child will have phases of behaviour.

We should be raising the next generation to shrug their shoulders and accept others whatever their characteristics, not putting six year olds into boxes that they may struggle to leave if their feelings change with time.

not putting six year olds into boxes that they may struggle to leave if their feelings change with time

surely thats exactly what the parents are doing, lettingthe child dress as they please?

surely thats exactly what the parents are doing, lettingthe child dress as they please?

Exactly my point - but for the school to say 'right, little Maisey is now transgender, we have policies and procedures for this' and make it common knowledge to all and sundry could make Maisey reluctant or embarrassed to do anything differently if his/her feelings change with time.

The thing that is so sad is the thought of one of their kids being gay/trans/gender issues. They talk about emotional damage as if it is something that happens to other peoples kids, whist being entirely blinkered that their own kids may well be coming to them in the future with the very same issues.

Siwhite - you seem to be assuming a transgender policy implies the child has changed from one gender to another. It’s not at all like that. More just a case of saying that the child is expressing a gender identity or behaviour out of the usual.

Not really, all faiths have spectrums of interpretations in their texts, faith and what is or isn't compliant behaviours

Only atheism appears be without such nuance

Don't be silly, atheists don't believe in just as wide a spectrum of interpretations. It's not that atheists lack nuance, it's that people with faith don't have the flexibility and complexity to believe in a wide variety of interpretations all at the same time in the way that atheists manage to disbelieve.

Assuming that their claim is correct* that it offends their Christian beliefs and may leave other children confused:

Well so ****ing what? Be offended and confused, it's [i]someone else's kid[/i] for crying out loud. You can't go through life avoiding everyone you don't agree with.

(* - clue, it's not)

that for an adult to suggest or encourage a child to dress, act or behave in any particular manner is harmful

Such as telling boys they can't wear dresses...?

I dont get it. A kid goes go school dressed as a boy one day and a girl the next and their kids dont understand that. I'm not sure whats to understand?
I explained to my kid that such and such had two dads, righto said junior can I have an ice cream? Another time right such and such who you met last year wants to be a girl now so dresses as a girl. Does that meant I wont get her old clothes now says junior well they'll be girls clothes oh right no then. Can I have an ice cream?

[quote=allthegear ]If people didn't make such a bloody fuss out of the whole thing, it wouldn't matter, would it?
Rachel

I agree. The question is at what point do you develop any real sense of gender rather than just being a person (other than it being something society imposes on you, which is what we're presumably trying to avoid). I'm also tempted to agree that at 6 kids don't really have a sense of gender - or at least they wouldn't if it wasn't that society has already spent years imposing one on them. Ideally all children that age would be gender neutral / gender fluid, but it's not really an ideal we're ever going to reach - though if that is what has happened with the children and parents in this case, then I applaud it.

Certainly when my oldest was little he liked wearing dresses - but then I expect that is the case for most/all little boys who don't have such things forced out of them by dads with a fixed view on such things (though my youngest didn't have the same level of enthusiasm IIRC). From what I can work out the main reason he grew out of it as soon as he did was peer pressure, but then that's the sort of thing which is going to exist no matter how enlightened everybody is so long as there is are distinct gender images in terms of the way people dress. He still likes wearing nail varnish and I'm sad that it's not something he can do without being teased. Is he transgender? I don't think so, though couldn't rule it out, he's just not completely stuck in the "boy" box.