You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Pubs and breweries are in a market which predetermines average costs and margins hence prices being broadly comparable as are the wage rates of bar staff. Friendly ethical capitalists have tried to step out of that model eg William Morris but none survive due to competition from the market cf Tony Elliott's Time Out and the City Limits co-op. It's a system not a collection of nice or nasty individuals.
After a bit of a think, I'm going to have to side with the Pub staff on this one.
I worked in a lot of pubs / bars when I was younger and if you're unfortunate enough to work in a Pub that younger people enjoy you are inundated by kids as young as 14 with dubious ID from shady stuff bought on the Internet to passports and driving licenses borrowed from older siblings or just off friends.
I feel for her, but especially in an age when you can buy booze on an app and have it delivered to a table, you're going to get every kid in miles trying it on.
Obviously it asks all manner of moral questions, but do we think some poor overworked, poorly paid Weatherspoons staff member, presented with it for the first time is going to be able to interpret Weatherspoons policy for themselves on the hop?
As I've had to explain to my Gay son on more than one occasion, the rate of change in society in regards to gender and sexuality has been massive over the last few years and whilst it's not fair, he had to accept the real world is struggling to keep up with the theoretical one.
Who is to blame? Well you can't expect Pubs to accept ID that doesn't match the holder, and the policies are quite clear - does the person look 21 / 25 depending on their policies, well no, she's 19, do they look like the picture in the ID? No, you can debate facial shape and all that, but we're talking about people here, not CSI.
Ultimately, if the Girl has transitioned, then her ID is no longer valid. You have to apply for a new Passport if you change your gender, or your appearance and she had done both. Yes it's a hassle and I'm sure it costs money, but that's life, it's not 'fair' but it is the same for everyone.
Not sure this is really a story, maybe the takeaway is if you're trans and look different enough from your photo to how you look now, maybe update your photo ID?
Wetherspoons or not, if they think someones trying to pull a fast one then they have the right to refuse service or be fined or possibly lose their license. As much as Tim Martin looks like James May had sex with a racist ghost, It's a bit of a leap to think that Wetherspoons sent a memo round with a list of minorities to refuse service to.......although, now I say that out loud it does seem plausible
do they look like the picture in the ID? No
You've seen the photoID then?
You have to apply for a new Passport if you change your gender
You make it sound so easy.
Currently: https://www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information/gender + https://www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate
Attempts have been made to remove some of the hurdles in place, but the push back against those changes have been both vocal and effective.
Even by usual Wetherspoons standards The Counting House is a dump. Beautiful old bank, but it's right slap bang in the city centre, and a genuinely hellish experience full of some less than desirable characters. Given the pretty much non stop stream of people being thrown out by the bouncers in there, I don't envy the challenges the staff face.
I'm very aware that this is basically victim blaming, and I know attitudes will never change if people feel they need to hide away, but a trans teen is always running a risk going to The Counting House, both from knuckle dragging customers, as well as staff that don't have the appropriate training to understand and deal with the situation correctly.
Glasgow has a load of really good bars that are geared up to deal with this correctly, from the LGBTQ specific area/ bars around the Merchant City, to the places like Max's, Bloc, 13th Note etc, that have some really great attitudes and policies. I suspect however it's the lure of cheap drink that brings younger folk to a Wetherspoons, and then it's a gamble if they do happen to find an understanding member of staff that can deal with the situation correctly.
So you guys think that a young woman would cut their hair, wear a wig, claim they are trans and use a male passport just to get into a bar underage?
Bit elaborate is it not?
She explained why she doesn't look like that and that the passport was her official ID, which demonstrated that she's old enough. As has been said earlier there are many reasons as to why she may not have updated her passport. Yet the bar staff still refused her, which is clearly discrimination based in ignorance.
Where does that leave people who are gender fluid?
At home?
Yet the bar staff still refused her, which is clearly discrimination based in ignorance.
Which they've apologised for and learnt from. Obviously they'll never be a politically savvy as you, but what more do you want?
Surely the whole point of ID is for it to be of an accurate appearance of yourself.
The bar staff made the right decision.
It’s a bit of a leap to think that Wetherspoons sent a memo round with a list of minorities to refuse service to
That’s the leap that dare not speak it’s name. Unless maybe some opportunist I dunno, maybe Douglas Peterhood or Jordan Murrayson, looking out for some new material.
“The Left have this idea that Wetherspoons has, has, (they literally do think this) - they belieeeeeve in their heart of hearts that Wetherspoons, no really, they belieeeeeve that Wetherspoons (for our US viewers, I’d like to point out that Wetherspoons is a pro-Brexit UK pub company which sometimes functions as a popup campaign leaflet-distribution outlet currently running 879 pubs across the UK and is always, always (as far as ‘always‘ is practical) welcoming to all minorities...
...Where was I?
Yes, so to get back to the point. This article shows, again, and again, and again, and again, that The Left (or at least the ‘radical Left‘ inasmuch as one may determine these days) shows that The Left belieeeeeve (as do the minorities, or at least the radical minorities, we don’t have actual figures) ...this article AGAIN shows that they, they actually do belieeeeeeve that Wetherspoons...
... has an official policy of barring minorities!!! It is clearly insane. Well, The Woke 1% will finally have something to complain about when the 99% of The Rest Of Us finally get tired of their street-fires, their rape of our daughters, their pillaging of our resources, their knifings, their bombings, their riots and their flooding of our streets with sub-Saharan immigrants. We shall roll over. We shall scratch. And it won’t be pretty. Please click like and subscribe. And beware the Left and Radical Minorities. They may pretend or even believe with open naive hearts that there is such a thing as racism, xenophobia, homophobia, etc in Britain, when the exact opposite is true. But they use our better nature as a broad back in which to plunge their knife. They bully us into our quietest, meekest corners, and we (The 99%), we huddle ourselves, hardly daring to speak up as they roll up our sleeves and ‘vaccinate’ us against unWokeness with their compulsory Communistic needling. Our Town Halls have become autonomous zones where the insidious Marxist Agenda is fed into the lifeblood to sicken our once-healthy People with the disease of Wokeness. A strange word to use for a pox. For a blight on our once Proud Nation. Every Woke-Warrior on The Left really do believe that they are vaccinating us from ourselves, and for our own good. Well, they will soon have something to complain about... Etc’. </satire>
I understand peoples views but... the law is the law and its down to the person regardless of gender to provide ID when asked.
An operator should always urge on the side of caution as its a licensing objective to protect those who are under 18 including those who appear to be. Big fines, prosecution not to mention the damage in reputation amongst other pitfalls for not doing the basics.
Common sense normally prevails but having been in the industry for 20yrs the perception of the public of what can and can't happen is murky at best in many situations.
Granted Spoons aren't known for being tactful or customer service but they have to operate within the law as do all operators. Anyone can be refused entrance by a DPS/license holder regardless and that's is the simple truth
i understand people’s views, but
Really, what are ‘people’s views‘?
She said:
"Training for staff is needed to deal with this in a sensitive manner,".
Wetherspoons said:
"The incident has shown that providing ID for transgender customers may present difficulties and we will review our processes in the area." They said
Done. Finished. Non-story on the face of it. But no...everyone wants to chew on it and make a ‘point’ or score some ‘wins‘ on the internets. A non-story (on the global scale) now easily becomes a globe-spanning dog-chew for people who are generally the most unaffected by such events.
Imagine people agreeing with the upshot of the article. ie ‘oh maybe that could have been handled better, hate to see people feeling upset but glad it worked out well in the end’
See also the young man with a special-needs anti-head-banging helmet who was brashly refused entry to The Cosy Nice Cottage Inn because of the no-motorcyclists policy. The pub apologised and reviewed their sensitivity policy. And Twitter was awash with ‘anti-WOKE’ articles about how motorcyclists and the learning disabled want to cancel pubs.
Wait, strike the last part that was the 1970s before electronic and social media. I may even have almost (or totally) invented the whole thing.
But...who won? The Woke or the AntiWoke? The Right or the Left? The Gays or the Straights? Europe or Brexit? Trump or China? Men or Women? Black or white? Latte or Bitter?
Which they’ve apologised for and learnt from. Obviously they’ll never be a politically savvy as you, but what more do you want?
So why are people arguing that they'd make the same mistake?
Do you really think I'm that knowledgeable, or are you just having a petty dig because I'm more aware of social injustice and eloquently showing compassion and empathy towards people who aren't like me?
It's nothing to do whether people aren't like you or not or empathy etc....the kid didnt have the right face on the ID...end of!! When a company can receive a fine or worse for swrving underage kids then the staff did exactly the right thing.
A complete non story.
the kid didnt have the right face on the ID…end of
You’ve seen the photoID as well?
kelvin
You make it sound so easy.
Currently: https://www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information/gender + https://www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate
Attempts have been made to remove some of the hurdles in place, but the push back against those changes have been both vocal and effective.
Does she actually need to change the gender on the ID though? The barpeople didn't refuse to serve her because it said M instead if F, it was because the picture was not recognisable as her. Surely she could get e.g. a Citizencard with a picture accurately showing her current appearance and solve the problem?
I didn't say anything about changing the gender in the passport, someone else said that they should, I just pointed out that for a 19 year to do so is far from trivial. Even ignoring that the law is currently an arse when it comes to such things... getting an amended passport is not cheap.
…end of!!When a company can receive a fine or worse for swrving underage kids then the staff did exactly the right thing.
So instead you'd rather go to court and be sued for breaching the Equality Act?
"It is unlawful to refuse a service, or provide a worse standard of service,
because a person is intending to undergo, are undergoing, or have
undergone gender reassignment. For example, this means that stopping
a trans person from using the toilet they feel is appropriate to them
may create a risk of legal action being taken against the pub, club or
venue you work at.
It is also unlawful for a business to unlawfully discriminate against or
harass someone because they intend to undergo, are undergoing, or
have undergone gender reassignment. A business can be held legally
responsible for unlawful discrimination or harassment carried out by
its workers during their employment. In some circumstances, those
workers may be held personally liable for any unlawful discrimination or
harassment they engage in. "
I guess that's why the company has apologised and is making an effort to educate staff. Hmm, do I upstage you with a mic drop?
To save everyone skim reading that...
ID
Be aware that you might get situations in which a trans person looks different to how they look on their ID. While some trans people do change their ID to their new identity, some trans people do not want to change their ID, others may not have changed their ID yet or they may be unable to change their legal identity.
Agreed that the company have handled this well after the event... it's just odd that so many people want to ignore the apology and declaration of intention to improve things by the company, and double down on there being no need to do either.
@Faerie - i'd take my chances given the circumstances. Common semse needs to prevail here.
If you don't look like what your official ID says you do then you dont have a leg to stand on.
If you don’t look like what your official ID says you do then you dont have a leg to stand on.
Did you not read anything Faerie quoted, or linked to?
And... again... have you seen the photoID? Why are you so sure that you can't tell it is the same person?
Well, something to do with the opening sentence of the article 'A transgender woman has spoken of her upset after she was refused service in a pub because staff did not think she looked like the person on her ID'
So that sentence hints that there were more than one pair of eyes looking at the ID does it not??!
Three pages of whataboutery. Has anyone seen the ID in question and a photo of said lady that doesn't look like it's been Instagrammed within an inch of its life? Were any of us in the pub at the time and witnessed the event happening? Then you're all guessing.
It's possible that there was prejudice at work here. It's plausible, though very far from certain, that the staff thought "I'm not serving that freak."
It's possible that it was someone doing their job and didn't know any better. At the end of the day it was someone buying a drink, where refusal of service would be a relative non-issue but serving someone underage could cost them their job.
It is unlawful to refuse a service, or provide a worse standard of service, because a person is intending to undergo, are undergoing, or have undergone gender reassignment.
See that word I've highlighted there? That's the important bit. It doesn't mean they're instead compelled to serve what presumably appears to them to potentially be an underage girl with her brother's passport.
Assuming the staff are being honest, she wasn't refused service because she was transgender but because she didn't look like her photo ID. Those are two very different scenarios and conflating the two just feeds the sort of narrative that Malvern Rider was lampooning. Cross out "transgender" and put "had plastic surgery" then read the story again.
In either case it's likely that some form of staff training is appropriate here to better deal with potential TG issues, raise awareness and treat people with a little more empathy, and I'm pleasantly surprised to see that looks like it's going to happen.
It does rather beg the question though, if her passport likeness is sufficiently poor as to not be able buy a drink, it's not going to be much use as a passport either is it?
Apologies to Jon here incidentally. Obtaining alternative ID is not something I've had to do, I just knew it existed. Sounds a right PITA.
And what if that person offered to remove an item they were wearing in order to prove they were who they were?
Something about common sense was mentioned I believe?
It does rather beg the question though, if her passport likeness is sufficiently poor as to not be able buy a drink, it’s not going to be much use as a passport either is it?
Aye - what's the point of any photo id if the likeness is irrelevant?
Apologies to Jon here incidentally. Obtaining alternative ID is not something I’ve had to do, I just knew it existed. Sounds a right PITA.
My BiL has neither passport nor driving license but needed photo ID to take internal UK flights. He got a Citizens Card without any hassle.
Does he look like his photo? (-:
kelvin
I didn’t say anything about changing the gender in the passport, someone else said that they should, I just pointed out that for a 19 year to do so is far from trivial. Even ignoring that the law is currently an arse when it comes to such things… getting an amended passport is not cheap.
Rather than say she didn't need to do that, you posted two links on changing gender on a passport and getting a gender recognition certificate, so it read to me that you agree with the poster that it's required, but difficult to achieve.
kelvin
And… again… have you seen the photoID? Why are you so sure that you can’t tell it is the same person?
I don't know why you keep making this point. Aside from barkeeper and bar manager in the main incident in the article, the woman herself goes on to say that it's been a problem a number of times since she transitioned in Feb 2019.
And what if that person offered to remove an item they were wearing in order to prove they were who they were?
Something about common sense was mentioned I believe?
Dunno about that. It does seem a bit odd. Could have been any number of reasons. Could well be that the server was prejudiced (and exercising a bit of prejudice of my own, it is someone choosing to work in a Wetherspoons). It could equally well be that they'd been stroppy pains in the arse for the last 15 minutes before ordering anything and the staff just wanted shut of them. We can sit here guessing all day.
Does he look like his photo? (-:
Apparently, he doesn't have to...
Is that how you see it, as a trap? Trans girl goes out for a drink with mates, staff refuse to serve because she doesn’t look like her photo, she explains why, they still don’t accept it, resulting in her offering to show them why, and they still don’t. And eject her.
This is incredibly naieve.
They would have been slaughtered if they'd have agreed to her offer of taking her wig off. It's already magically appeared in the press, this would have been another level.
I don’t know why you keep making this point.
Because, without seeing whether the person can be clearly identified from their ID, just about every claim and statement made by most posters in this thread is just vague supposition written as if fact. Clear statements about the staff doing the right/wrong thing are meaningless judgements without seeing the person and their photoID. We don't know.
On the passport issue (and this probably also applies to other official state ID that is accepted as proof of age, I don't know) staff need to be prepared for the gender to be different to that presented at the time, especially for young people, because getting their status on official documents updated is currently very difficult.
kelvin
Because, without seeing whether the person can be clearly identified from their ID, just about every claim and statement made by most posters in this thread is just vague supposition written as if fact.
From the article:
It is not the first time she has been questioned about her ID picture. She added: "A few times I've gone in [to other pubs] and they've said 'that's not you', but my voice isn't very feminine so when I speak it clears up the fact that I am trans, and I tell them that I am too."
Are you're saying they're all mistaken? 🤷🏻♂️
She's come across the same problem before, yes. Her description suggests that, when staff in the past have made the same understandable mistake, that once they know she is trans, they can see that it is her ID and accepted it. Without seeing the photoID, I have no idea if that is a reasonable expectation for all staff checking her ID, and nor do any of us.
@cougar post seems to sum this up well 🙂
On the passport issue (and this probably also applies to other official state ID that is accepted as proof of age, I don’t know) staff need to be prepared for the gender to be different to that presented at the time
The UK passport has the 'sex' of the individual. Gender is not recorded. The staff do need to be prepared for a whole variety of presentations by individuals. A tricky job!
So instead you’d rather go to court and be sued for breaching the Equality Act?
Possibly.
Since that scenario would probably result in me as the bar person getting the sack but be the company paying the bill.
Whereas if I served someone underage it would probably also result in me getting the sack and also having to pay the fine since for underage drinking its the server responsible not the company (which is why staff may decide to recheck regardless of the bouncers already having done so since its their necks on the line).
Apart from Kelvin, did anyone read the link to the Home Office guide for IDing trans customers?
"Transphobic hate crime
Any criminal offence which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be
motivated by hostility or PREJUDICE on the basis of a person’s actual or perceived
transgender identity, is a hate crime.
Hate crimes are particularly traumatic for victims. A customer who feels that
they are the victim of a transphobic hate crime may need your help and support,
including if they (or another person) wish to report it to the police."
Prejudice is not necessarily intended but is often used in decision making. I'll ask again, do you really believe that a young woman would use a male passport and claim she was transgender by cutting her hair and wearing a wig just to have a drink down the pub?
Or is it just a convenient excuse that means you don't have to step out of your comfort zone?
Common sense has been mentioned a few times but not many are applying it.
Possibly.
Since that scenario would probably result in me as the bar person getting the sack but be the company paying the bill.
"In some circumstances, those
workers may be held personally liable for any unlawful discrimination or
harassment they engage in." Home Office
Three pages and all I’m getting is I’m glad I don’t work in a pub. Anybody under the age of 25 looks about 14 to me. Safest just to increase (or decrease)the legal drinking age!
did anyone read the link to the Home Office guide for IDing trans customers?
It is a wet windy afternoon so...
...it is no wonder staff are unsure on this issue! I wonder what 'legal' status this guide has?
IMO it misapplies the english language and the Equality Act. Conflating sex and gender, talking about the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment as if it meant gender identity. The 'Toilet' advise directly contravenes single sex exemptions within the Act.
Other authoratitive institutions have also been found wanting in providing correct guidance e.g the Equalities and Human Rights Commission have admitted this failure, though are yet to amend their guidance to bring it in line with the law.
ID
Be aware that you might get situations in which a trans person looks different to how they look on their ID. While some trans people do change their ID to their new identity, some trans people do not want to change their ID, others may not have changed their ID yet or they may be unable to change their legal identity.
She’s come across the same problem before, yes.
Common sense just dictates if people don't think you are the person on your photo ID with DOB you get some other photo ID to corroborate or change the one you're using.
So you guys think that a young woman would cut their hair, wear a wig, claim they are trans and use a male passport just to get into a bar underage?
Bit elaborate is it not?
Erm... they got into a bar, they wanted serving alcohol.... and yep like most of my mates we spent 1/2 our lives at 17 working out how to get served, fake ID's etc. I had a fake NUS card.. went to a lot of trouble to get that!
Regardless you can still get chucked out or refused to be served for any number of reasons.
Being a dick is often a reason though perhaps that doesn't apply to Wetherspoons?
I had a fake NUS card.. went to a lot of trouble to get that!
Well, then you know why young people now have to carry official documentation, such as a passport, to prove their age. Official documentation that can prove very difficult and expensive to get updated when transitioning, especially if you are young, which most people needing proof of age are.
It seems like a non story to me...
Speaking as a hand wringing liberal, (not lefty, don't get confused now.) I also know what it's like for bar staff in a busy pub - they are not going to spend half an hour explaining/debating the decision, they simply have to say, nope, not you, to the best of their ability and that's that.
Was that particular decision wrong? quite possibly, but it seems there was no harm intended.
My local spoons used to have a lot of bother with kids hanging around outside, with a few mates inside who were '18' bringing drinks out to them, so they really clamped down on anyone who vaguely looked like a youngster regardless of gender or ID. It wasn't the bar staff being difficult or 'ist' it was an operational hazard.
Can someone explain the CIS thing to me ? One of the bike mechanic forums had some topic the other day and any male who dared to speak was immediately pounced upon for injecting their masculinity .I didnt get it all so didnt ask,as the general concensus and narrrative seemed to be that if you have to ask leave the thread
If im being honest it irked me somewhat , not that i was being excluded , more that the general attitude was one that the posters werent prepared to explain to several other bemused people what the hell it was all about and you shouldnt ask.
Lol. It's one thing getting a fake ID with all the tipex, photocopying and cutting a photo to size to get a drink, and quite another to changing your actual appearance and gender to get a gin. She even offered to humiliate herself further and take her wig off to show that she is who her passport says she is.
The same arguments in favour of prejudice are being recycled, despite evidence to show that what they did is wrong. According to the law a refusal in this situation is clearly discriminatory, which is why she's received an apology. Arguing against it just demonstrates how set people are in their ways and unable to extend empathy to those they don't understand.
Sorry, this thread has reminded me of Allthegear. I hope that she is well.
Well, then you know why young people now have to carry official documentation, such as a passport, to prove their age. Official documentation that can prove very difficult and expensive to get updated when transitioning, especially if you are young, which most people needing proof of age are.
Citizenship card: Costs £12 and takes 21 days. Card posted by Royal Mail 2nd class post
(or you can do the "urgent") ..
Cost: less than 3 pints
Really doesn't seem to be THAT difficult considering...
Try a list of the 10 most difficult things and 10 most expensive things for a young person transitioning.. does applying for a citizenship card really make either top 10?
One of the bike mechanic forums had some topic the other day and any male who dared to speak was immediately pounced upon for injecting their masculinity .I didnt get it all so didnt ask,as the general concensus and narrrative seemed to be that if you have to ask leave the thread
LOL. I think I know the one. If the thread had been "are there any female bike mechanics on here?" you'd have likely just browsed on past. Also see "non-ovulators", "people who have periods". etc.
The same arguments in favour of prejudice are being recycled
So drop your prejudice...
"teen who didn't look like their photo ID refused service in pub…"
She even offered to humiliate herself further and take her wig off to show that she is who her passport says she is.
Rather than what, "the humiliation" of applying for a new citizenship card photo?
Cripes I got asked to remove my glasses at immigration... the humiliation.
I was refused service in a pub when I was 25. Their minimum age was 21. I was with my workmates and did actually feel pretty humiliated. Especially as they ribbed me about it for ages afterwards.
Cripes I got asked to remove my glasses at immigration… the humiliation.
Absolutely no comparison what so ever.
Absolutely no comparison what so ever.
True, I can't read without them.
True, I can’t read without them.
Have you considered a career as a bouncer? Good eyesight apparently not a pre-requisite.
I’ll ask again, do you really believe that a young woman would use a male passport and claim she was transgender by cutting her hair and wearing a wig just to have a drink down the pub?
I don't think that anyone on this thread or indeed anywhere is suggesting that as a likely scenario, it's a (ludicrous) straw man argument.
Rather, do you think that it's 100% impossible that a 17-year old genuinely transgender woman might borrow her similar-looking older brother's passport in order to get served in a bar?
True, I can’t read without them.
You can sure as hell type though.
Can someone explain the CIS thing to me ?
It's not a "thing." It's been the conventionally accepted "normal" that has been expected and indeed demanded for decades, not a movement.
One of the bike mechanic forums had some topic the other day and any male who dared to speak was immediately pounced upon for injecting their masculinity
#AllLivesMatter ?
LOL. I think I know the one. If the thread had been “are there any female bike mechanics on here?” you’d have likely just browsed on past. Also see “non-ovulators”, “people who have periods”. etc.
See that was the thing to me they were all just people doing a job , it seemed like it needed to be labelled for some reason, I personally didnt understand what it had to do with being a bike mechanic in the first place but it seemed because of the topic title to develop into some issue? Cripes
It’s not a “thing.” It’s been the conventionally accepted “normal” that has been expected and indeed demanded for decades, not a movement.
Really great explanation. I had never heard of it.
Can someone explain the CIS thing to me ?
CIS means the same, trans means different.
@Poah sorry chap im just a thicko bike mechanic I dont understand it at all Google search just makes me scratch my head as is.
Citizenship card: Costs £12 and takes 21 days. Card posted by Royal Mail 2nd class post
(or you can do the “urgent”) ..Cost: less than 3 pints
Really doesn’t seem to be THAT difficult considering…
another one that doesn't read the thread
What kind of evidence do you need to be able to get a citizenship card then?
Clue: it's very easy if you've already got official ID in the name and image you want. If you haven't it's remarkably hard, possibly with justification. Hence why allowances need to be made in situations like these.
My BiL has neither passport nor driving license but needed photo ID to take internal UK flights. He got a Citizens Card without any hassle.
what did he use as proof of identity then?
Do pubs actually accept those Citizen Card things? Seems to be a few different brands for proof of age cards. Which ones do the bar staff actually recognise?
How do they know its not fake?
oh and +1 to faerie about ATG/Rachel
I hate to think what she's thinking if she still lurks and is reading some of the prejudice still being shown on here.
She was a star in helping me to come to terms and ask the right questions when my then daughter came out to us 2 years ago about how she couldn't go on living in her body any more and just wanted to go to sleep and never wake up. About how she wanted to take a knife to her own breast buds. How we still battle every month about why he can't get treated by UK law and as a result has to bleed into his pants every month because he was born in the wrong body and refuses to use tampons. Tough to read? How hard do you think it is for a child to live that?
So yeah, when someone refuses to recognise your new identity whether from prejudice or ignorance, it's a lot more ***ing raw than just going on to the next place and not crying about it.
Jon, I think your son is lucky to have you as his father. Ignore the idiots here.
Seems to be a few different brands for proof of age cards.
Some of the accredited brands are here:
https://www.pass-scheme.org.uk/card-suppliers/
And, yes, they are generally laughed at in pubs, good for age related travel and entertainment tickets though (where getting it wrong just risks someone getting a cheap ticket). Young people use passports and driving licences for a reason… they are easy to recognise and hard to fake… and it’s important that staff learn to accept the mismatching that occurs with people transitioning, especially young people who can not easily get their documents to match their gender, because the current law around this is an arse. I have no idea if the staff in this example got this wrong this time, but it’s good to hear the chain taking the issue seriously. No idea why so many of us can’t do likewise.
faerie
The same arguments in favour of prejudice are being recycled, despite evidence to show that what they did is wrong. According to the law a refusal in this situation is clearly discriminatory, which is why she’s received an apology. Arguing against it just demonstrates how set people are in their ways and unable to extend empathy to those they don’t understand.
What evidence, and specifically what law shows a refusal in this case to be clearly discriminatory? Please don't refer me to the PDF you posted, it is not law.
The licensing acts for both England & Wales and Scotland specify that evidence of age provided by a punter must be sufficient to convince a reasonable person.
Given you can get a criminal record for selling items to underage people. If you don't look like the picture in the ID of course people are going to be really careful.
A person should change their ID to match their look. Storm in a teacup.
What if they don’t always look the same? Wear wigs? Dye their hair… etc, etc… you must have the imagination to realise that a young person going through this… no scratch that… any young person… might be changing how they look at this time of their life, especially when on a night out. And the ‘big’ documents are expensive and difficult to change. People don’t have to change their “look” to match their ID, or visa versa, you just have to be able or tell it is them in the photo.
A person should change their ID to match their look. Storm in a teacup.
Read the thread before commenting, eh?
Cougar it's rather a stretch but possible, and not what happened here.
Retro83 that PDF from the Home Office refers to the legislative Equality Act 2010 part 2, chapter 1, section 7 which is law. Would you like me to post a link to it?
I think a few people would benefit from reading it.
Can someone explain the CIS thing to me
+1
I don't think cougar's reply made it any clearer.
faerie
Retro83 that PDF from the Home Office refers to the legislative Equality Act 2010 part 2, chapter 1, section 7 which is law. Would you like me to post a link to it?
I think a few people would benefit from reading it.
No thank-you faerie, i'd just like you to explain specifically what bit of law you are talking about which defines the action the barkeeps have taken as being discriminatory because I don't understand why you think it is.
Do pubs actually accept those Citizen Card things?
IME from my days as an underage alcoholic-in-training, many pubs don't care. Rather, it's arse-covering, the police turn up and find a bunch of pissed 16 year olds, the pub goes "well, they had ID." End of. Times might've changed in the intermediate 30 years though.
Cougar it’s rather a stretch but possible, and not what happened here.
It's not a stretch in the slightest, back when I was nominally underage some of my peers borrowed older siblings' ID plenty of times. I remember being a mid-teens teenager, I was a big ol' introverted swot and even I had fake ID. Getting served in a pub at 16-17 was pretty much competitive.
It's not what actually happened here this is true, but put on the spot in the heat of the moment and without the benefit of hindsight is it not plausible that that's what the staff incorrectly assumed?
A pub is presented with a teenager wearing a long blonde wig and an ID that they seemingly bear no resemblance to and says 'male' on it, is it so outlandish to countenance that they just didn't want the hassle of potentially serving underage drinkers, rather than leaping to the conclusion with cast iron certainty that they kicked her out because they were bigots?
defines the action the barkeeps have taken as being discriminatory
I don’t think anyone has said that they know enough about the story to say that anyone broke any laws, or indeed acted in a discriminatory way, but faerie is drawing attention to the protection in law that others seem to think do not exist, or can be ignored due to good old common sense (prejudice).
that they kicked her out because they were bigots?
Mistakes can be made. Staff need to be trained to not treat a young person using ID which seemingly does not match the gender they present as somehow pulling a fast one. The company involved have said they aim to do better in this regard. Well done them. No one is haranguing the staff. Some people are desperate to paint this is a non-event, and that apologies and promises to do better are unnecessary. Or worse, comparing the effect on the life of the woman involved to them not wearing the right footwear.
kelvin
I don’t think anyone has said that they know enough about the story to say that anyone broke any laws, but faerie is drawing attention to the protection in law that others seem to think do not exist, or can be ignored due to good old common sense (prejudice).
With respect, I think that is what faerie is suggesting:
faerie
According to the law a refusal in this situation is clearly discriminatory, which is why she’s received an apology.
I don’t think cougar’s reply made it any clearer.
It means that the gender prescribed to you at birth is in line with your actual gender. Ie, most people. For many CIS people it is demonstrably difficult to countenance any other situation but for many wide and varied reasons it does happen and despite what the TERFs would have you believe it's nothing to do with creating a cover story in order to molest women in toilets.
To put that another way, you know the ever-increasing LGBT+ acronym? If you've never considered that any of that applies to you, you're CIS.
Personally I hate the term, it's all too often used pejoratively, but here we are and my gripe of language is of lesser import.
TERFs
Really Cougar?
With respect, I think that is what faerie is suggesting
The protection in law is there, it is bound to be one of the factors informing an apology, but that does not mean they are admitting to breaking the law, or that they would be found to have done so if it went to court… and none of know if they would be, we don’t know enough of the details. We haven’t even seen the photoID.
Act 2010 part 2, chapter 1, section 7 which is law
Im not sure that section is relevant here, it merely defines the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. Or a transexual. The young lady describes herself as transgender, and no mention is made or her intent to transition sex, as the act refers to.
Are you sure you have the right section?
Staff need to be trained to not treat a young person using ID which seemingly does not match the gender they present as somehow pulling a fast one.
I 100% agree with you. But again, is this what happened?
If the problem was that it said M rather than F on the passport then absolutely, this is bang out of order and very clearly a training issue.
If the problem was that she looked nowt like her photo ID then not so much. That's what photo ID is for, otherwise what you have there is "ID."
It's a complex situation and jumping to either conclusion is problematic. Trans people need consideration and empathy, but teenagers are sneaky bastards. If aged 17 I'd thought that I could get served in pubs if I borrowed my brother's ID and got my sister to slap a bit of lippy on me as a diversionary tactic then the only thing that would have stopped me was the fact I was an only child. It's really, really not a great leap that bar staff might have erred on the side of caution here. They just unfortunately got it wrong in this case.
The fact that they're now going to train staff to recognise trans people and apply a bit more sensitivity rather than default assuming "git in a wig" is great, that should be the take-away from all this.
Really Cougar?
Dunno what specifically you're "really"ing at, but that wasn't directed at anyone posting here.
But again, is this what happened?
Again, I have no idea. I haven’t seen the ID. I don’t know enough about what happened. And nor do those saying it is down to the individual to make their ID match their “look”, or that being wrongly turned away in these circumstances is like being turned away for wearing trainers.
I have no idea if the staff got it wrong, and the chain seems to have handled this all very well. Why has that invited so many people to post so much nonsense about the problems faced by young trans people as regards ID though?