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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-54026453
So, a customer who looked quite young was asked for ID by the barman and the photo on the ID didn't look like the person who was ordering the drink, so they refused to serve them alcohol. Somehow that is turned into transphobia?
Imagine the uproar if the customer had been underage, but was served alcohol.
Strange world we live in....
Imagine the uproar if the customer had been underage, but was served alcohol.
It was a Wetherspoons, I think it's compulsory to include an underage drinker in your party.
What is the point of a photo on photo ID?
(Though I sometime have a beard and sometimes not, I've never been queried about it).
Photo didn’t match the appearance of the holder, they were right to refuse service.
There used to be a guy who got on the bus in a western fife town, he had 2 bus passes, one for when he was dressed like a man, and one for when he was dressed like a woman.
she left Wetherspoons on Tuesday in tears after being told she would not be served
I got this far, then realised I didn't care. I got turned away from a pub in Portsmouth once cos I was wearing trainers. I didn't cry, I just went somewhere else.
I got turned away from a pub in Portsmouth once cos I was wearing trainers. I didn’t cry, I just went somewhere else.
Somewhere that wasn't Portsmouth. Wise.
'He has either never been to Umm Qasr or he's never been to Southampton. There's no beer, no prostitutes and people are shooting at us. It's more like Portsmouth.'
A British soldiers reaction to a claim by Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon that the port of Umm Qasr is 'like the city of Southampton.'
I would need to see the photoID to have an opinion. If she looks much the same, but without a blonde wig… I’d be pissed for her… people change their hair and slap on makeup, or grow a beard, all the time. If you really can’t tell it’s the same person from the photo, then that’s different.
I didn’t cry, I just went somewhere else.
Why you were turned away seems key here.
I left the house the other morning and a guy in a dress was strolling past....
Each to their own and that, but I thought he really needed to try harder and put a bit more effort in.
I’m sure you were looking ready to walk straight onto a catwalk.
I would need to see the photoID to have an opinion. If she looks much the same, but without a blonde wig… I’d be pissed for her… people change their hair and slap on makeup, or grow a beard, all the time. If you can’t tell it’s the same person from the photo, then that’s different.
The question is - why would the staff at Wetherspoons turn this person away? Either (a) they are transphobic, (b) they weren't convinced it was the same person as the photo looked nothing like them, or (c) something else we're not being told. IMHO if they were spending money and were obviously old enough to buy drinks then I tend to doubt that (a) was the reason.
I got turned away from a pub in Portsmouth once cos I was wearing trainers
should that say wasN'T ?
then I tend to doubt that (a) was the reason
Well, I can certainly believe that she felt that was the reason, and so feel for her whatever happened. I’m not going to jump on attacking the staff without seeing the photoID though.
Somewhere that wasn’t Portsmouth. Wise.
We know where he’d have ended up if he was really wise.
Anyone who has worked in a retail environment where age restricted products are sold will know what a tricky area ID verification is
Responsible retailers (and I include licenced premises) drum into staff the importance of valid age ID and many carry out random undercover checks. Staff can be disciplined for failure to age verify
In this case we haven't seen the ID in question but the default position has to be that if there is any doubt, purchase of restricted items has to be refused
Somehow that is turned into transphobia?
That wasn’t mentioned in the article.
The fact it’s ‘news’ is because trans issues are redrags/clickbait. +1 million snowflakes will now go into utter frothing meltdown all over the interwebs, claiming that all transexuals and lefties are literally canceling barmen.
Result: Actual transphobia will now increase because a trans-person was reported as feeling ‘upset‘.
The mass-outrage-potential for the ‘anti-PC’ crowd is a cash-cow that keeps on giving. A tweet is usually all it takes to get snowflake-bait to be a snowball to be an avalanche
I left the house the other morning and a guy in a dress was strolling past….
Each to their own and that, but I thought he really needed to try harder and put a bit more effort in.
Portsmouth right?
Am no fan of Wetherspoons, but they've offered Ms Galloway an unreserved apology and the pub will be reviewing it's ID policies.
As outcomes go, that one's pretty positive I guess.
Eugh where the chef spits in food and the staff are rude jobsworths.
F spoons - anyway half the folk working there are inbred muppets
never needed ID from the age of 14... this is because i look like Uncle Festers evil twin...
Turning someone away from Wetherspoons is doing them a favour - COVID-ridden cesspits full of gammons.
Anyone getting turned away from a Wetherspoons is impressive, ime it's the place you go to when nowhere else will let you in
That said I'm struggling massively to be outraged at the outrage here
It's an undeniable fact of life that bouncers are dicks on a powertrip
It’s an undeniable fact of life that bouncers are dicks on a powertrip
The door staff let her in, it was the bar staff that wouldn't accept her ID.
When asked to prove she was over 18 on entering the pub, the 19-year-old showed her passport and explained to the person on the door that she was trans.
They accepted her passport as proof of her age and the group entered the pub.
It’s an undeniable fact of life that bouncers are dicks on a powertrip
Eh? You didn't read the non-story.
Or do you just have a general hatred for bouncers and needed to express it?
It’s an undeniable fact of life that bouncers are dicks on a powertrip
Absolutely..
However in this case I read it that they were already in pub, and it was bar person who refused drinks..
Read the report before judging with your comments. She offered to remove her wig to barman and manager, neither of whom were prepared to accept despite already explaining and been accepted by the door staff.
DezB My son is trans, faces this all the time. Yes, you do need a thick skin but to compare being continually stared at, questioned, snide remarks, etc to being turned away for wearing trainers with "and I didn't cry about it" is pretty poor.
Or do you just have a general hatred for bouncers and needed to express it?
A combo of carrying a chip on my shoulder for being denied entry to bars/pubs/clubs 20 odd years ago 😜
And having known a few, every one of the ones I knew at least, messed themselves up over drugs & violence.paeticular instance that stands out was having to hide the beaten girlfriend of a guy I'd considered a mate, while he tried to kick the door to get her.
I'm sure there are decent ones , I just never met any.
should that say wasN’T ?
No, you sir, are showing a lack of knowledge of shitty towns with petty door policies there.
We know where he’d have ended up if he was really wise
"We" being "you". Cos nobody else got that.
CFH, to whom I was replying, will get it.
anyway half the folk working there are inbred muppets
Really? Or are they just normal people like you* and I?
*Or are you a special kind of person?
Turning someone away from Wetherspoons is doing them a favour – COVID-ridden cesspits full of gammons.
Funny, nobody in the ‘spoons in our town centre struck me as being like that, plus the place had pretty good C19 processes in place when I went there for lunch a month or so back.
It may be a more accurate reflection of where you live, though...
I’m sure there are decent ones , I just never met any.
I could introduce you to Donna, who does security on our storage site, and who also does doors at a number of venues/pubs/clubs in the area - your description better fits some of the staff she has to work with, from what she’s told me. Still, it’s always easier to fall back on the usual stereotype, isn’t it.
Edited - great to see a story about potential prejudice throws up so many remarks displaying potential prejudice.
Turning someone away from Wetherspoons is doing them a favour – COVID-ridden cesspits full of gammons.
Yep, that's the real story, why was a young person trying to get into Weatherspoons. Education really is failing them
Yep, that’s the real story, why was a young person trying to get into Weatherspoons. Education really is failing them
On the contrary, I imagine they used their maths education to work out the age-old teenager's alcohol divided by cost quotient and came up with Weatherspoons.
Blimey, such prejudice! Despite the boss, that Wetherspoons is a really very nice one. I spent a fun time in there getting pleasantly oiled on an student quiz night (they were indeed very educated) whilst my mrs was at a conference at the university. I got invited to join a team (very inclusive given my apparently processed porcine age-status on here). They were sharp, friendly and funny people. These situations are almost designed to cause confusion (not having the right ID, not looking like your ID, only just inside the legal age limit, maybe a bit of enhanced upset) so the gatekeepers act conservatively to protect their job and the licence. All I can say is, 'I scream, you scream, we all scream for ice cream!'
When the air clears, I'd certainly go back and I'm sure they'd let me and anyone else in, old, young, kilt, skirt, ball gown, no problem, they like your money. They'll be selling rainbow pints and crisps next, if they're not already.
As she had her passport with her as a proof of age then it would have been easy to give her a pen and paper and got her to sign her name . Then if the signatures match give her a drink and the whole non story goes away .
All you wetherspoons fans desperate to prove your salt of the earth credentials might want to take a look at who owns the company and some of his public utterings.
Blimey, such prejudice!
Hardly prejudice, when
Despite the boss
Turned away from Wetherspoons?
Bullet dodged for the young'un.
to give her a pen and paper and got her to sign her name .
Erm cos photo I'D! I'd like to see this play out at an airport. Sometimes it's not about your personal rights, it's about the practicalities of how our society works. Anyway non story, very clickbait, and we've all fallen for it.
Can someone find me someone who owns a chain or a brewery who isn't a deeply unpleasant rapacious money grabber? Word was that a big real ale brewer of south London used to support the NF, the Guinness family have an interesting history, there's that piece of work at Wetherspoons. Whatever their personal attributes, they're all in it for money. I wouldn't bother wasting time looking for the cuddly capitalist, you'd never get a pint.
Erm cos photo I’D! I’d like to see this play out at an airport.
There's a rather large difference between letting somebody travel on an aeroplane and selling somebody an alcoholic drink . As she had her passport with her which has a photo and a signature then a matching signature done in front of the staff would prove that the passport belonged to her unless the photo was undeniably somebody else.
There’s a rather large difference between letting somebody travel on an aeroplane and selling somebody an alcoholic drink .
There is. But if you’re a worker in a pub and are likely to face consequences for serving someone under-age then you may decide it’s not a chance you want to take. You’d rather not serve someone of age then serve someone under-age. You’ll be told to err on the side of caution.
I feel sorry for the person involved, but don’t think the staff at ‘Spoons are to blame.
I get that .
Reported that she offered to both barman and manager to remove her wig so she'd look (more) like her passport photo, but both refused.
I get that equality cuts both ways and a cis person of debatable age and with a debatable ID would likely also be refused, but when it's been explained I'd hope for a degree of sensitivity and allowance to be made.
It is a bit of a non-story, it's been badly handled and Wetherspoons staff are apparently going to be better advised for the future which is a good outcome. The responses of some on here - to her and to Wetherspoons and their clientele - that's a bigger issue for me.
Can someone find me someone who owns a chain or a brewery who isn’t a deeply unpleasant rapacious money grabber?
Yes
Won’t be long before we get assigned compulsory digital ID.
How times have changed. When I was 15 we went to the local pub, landlord served us alcohol no questions asked (I looked about 12-13, having since seen some old school photos)
Furthermore on our leaving the landlady invited us to see a (female) stripper on the weekend!
(‘Sunday afternoon, lads? We gorra stripper. We’re doing a roast dinner too...’)
Even as kids visiting our first pub without our parents we thought it must be a bit of a ‘special’ pub to be doing lunchtime striptease letalone with gravy and peas. We joked that it was probably going to be the landlord’s wife. She looked a bit like the grandmother in ‘Giles’. cartoons. Anyway, never went back. There were about 60 other pubs within a mile. (Think it’s down to the mid-40s now)
Reported that she offered to both barman and manager to remove her wig so she’d look (more) like her passport photo, but both refused.
However 'spoons would still lose if it that were to play out, only the narrative would be "those nasty transphobic bar staff humiliated me into taking my wig off in front of the whole bar"
Grum, I'm not saying they're all the same but they're all businesses in the same market. If you start boycotting every business because of foul practice there's a lot you wouldn't do or buy. I also think Spoons staff were treated appallingly but maybe having a pint and chatting unions is more effective than putting them out of a job.
All you wetherspoons fans desperate to prove your salt of the earth credentials might want to take a look at who owns the company and some of his public utterings.
The comments haven't been slagging off the odious boss - they've been aimed at the customers in general and tarring them all with same brush.
Which I think falls under the umbrella of prejudice.
Here comes the juice. Squeeze the ‘story‘ hard enough. Insert some words.
1 x ‘transphobia‘
1 x ‘boycotting’
Red-rags to the ‘take back control‘ narrative.
Are we going for a bingo card? How about ‘No reason for forced diversity’? Howabout ‘PC gone too far’?
Keep it up, and with any luck LGBT people will be increasingly (not decreasingly) unwelcome and ‘then they’ll really have something to whine about’ </sarcasm>
Wetherspoons didn’t make itself political. Politics was forced on it by the LOONY LEFT
I wouldn’t bother wasting time looking for the cuddly capitalist, you’d never get a pint.
Maybe not and simply a decision based on ethics, but some are so well known (i.e. Weatherspoons boss) they are very easy to avoid without having to do 2 seconds of research into the owner and I would avoid the place.
Avoiding the place is one thing - I do.
Blindly slagging off all those who don't is just another type of blinkered prejudice.
Reported that she offered to both barman and manager to remove her wig so she’d look (more) like her passport photo, but both refused.
Credit to them for not walking into that elephant trap
just another type of blinkered prejudice.
Yes, shit pubs have had centuries of prejudice and oppression. It's only now that society is coming round to their way of thinking and I we can only hope that one day all pubs will be viewed equally.
Credit to them for not walking into that elephant trap
Is that how you see it, as a trap? Trans girl goes out for a drink with mates, staff refuse to serve because she doesn't look like her photo, she explains why, they still don't accept it, resulting in her offering to show them why, and they still don't. And eject her.
Or are we still at DezB's 'I got turned away for wearing trainers and didn't cry about it' level of comprehension at the almost daily scrutiny and prejudice she will face.
Because it's nowhere close to the same thing.
From a purely practical perspective why, when she made the decision to change the way she presented herself to outside world, did she not get new id photos sorted?
The girl I worked with used to talk about her 'dead name' to describe her 'male' name she was given at birth. I would imagine you would have wanted to rid yourself of your old ID photo if you felt that way about your previous name.
Good and fair question. Practicality, as much as anything maybe? It's not easy to get official documents that are accepted with proof of age on, my son has travelled on his dead name passport for the last 2 summers and we are just now going through the legal process to adopt a new name and update it. It's going to cost several hundred which not everyone can easily afford.
But (not an accusation BTW) - that line of thought is getting a bit close for me to being a bit victim blamey. Should she have to, if she chose not to or couldn't for other reasons? Perhaps she should only go out as her old identity until she can get it changed. To avoid putting anyone in a difficult situation or trapping them?
From a purely practical perspective why, when she made the decision to change the way she presented herself to outside world, did she not get new id photos sorted?
My thoughts exactly. If your photo ID is sufficiently out of date that it doesn't look like you any more, surely you update your ID? Granted, passports are expensive to renew but there's plenty of other options.
Can someone find me someone who owns a chain or a brewery who isn’t a deeply unpleasant rapacious money grabber?
That isn't the problem with 'spoons to my mind. Rather that Poundland's Father Jack abused the position to turn them into political mouthpieces full of propaganda.
Granted, passports are expensive to renew but there’s plenty of other options.
Example?
Can someone find me someone who owns a chain or a brewery who isn’t a deeply unpleasant rapacious money grabber?
Easily. Would you like them alphabetically?
EDIT: link already posted.
OK. And what documentation do you need to have to get one of those?
For an online electronic validation:
We only accept the following documents for the Electronic ID Validation:
Passport (UK or International)
Photo Driving Licence (UK or European)
European National ID Card
Or if you want to apply by referee (a professional person not related to, in full time employment, etc.)
- Biometric Home Office photo ID
- Birth certificate
- Certified copy of a birth certificate
- Disclosure and Barring Service certificate (DBS)
- European National ID Card (can be up to 3 years expired)
- European Health Insurance Card
- Gender Recognition Certificate
- Ministry of Defence Form 90 (Defence Identity Card)
- NHS Medical Card
- Passport (UK or International; can be up to 3 years expired)
- Photo Driving Licence (UK or European; can be up to 3 years expired)
- Proof of Age Standards Scheme card
- Scottish marriage certificate (must state applicant's date of birth)
- UK Naturalisation Certificate
None of which are trivial if you don't already have verified ID in your trans identifty.
Or for ValidateUK (the second link)
Two documents from ‘list A’ or one document from ‘list A’ and one document from ‘list B’.
<h5>Acceptable documents</h5>
LIST A
- Birth certificate
- Copy of photo page of current passport
- Photo driving licence
- DBS Check
- Medical card or GP Registration letter
- UK Armed forces card
LIST B
- Utility Bill e.g. gas, electric, council tax
- Bank statement
- Building Society letter or statement
- Letter from a Government agency e.g. DWP, HMRC, Jobseekers
- European Health Insurance Card – E1-11
- University, school, college acceptance letter
- Blue Disabled Driver’s Pass
- Police Warrant Card
- Tenancy Agreement
- UK Border Agency Papers/Residency Permit
Honestly, we've looked at all this for my son, so he can have official docs in his name and to change some of these docs is possible but requires certified and witnessed original copies of Deed Poll documents. And as a minor he also needs our consent which may not be forthcoming in all situations. You can apply for gender recognition, which is another route but that requires you to have lived as your new identity for at least 2 years.
It is genuinely not easy, can be costly, time consuming and stressful. Not £15 and a few mouse clicks no matter what some seem to think.
Avoiding the place is one thing – I do.
Blindly slagging off all those who don’t is just another type of blinkered prejudice
Not everyone who drinks in wetherspoons is a ****, but all ****s drink in wetherspoons.
I'd rather support an independent local than a chain owned by a rabid Brexit fundamentalist who probably can't wait until he's allowed to get rid of pesky EU directives like safety standards and worker rights. If that makes me a snob so be it.
DezB’s ‘I got turned away for wearing trainers and didn’t cry about it’ level of comprehension
What can he mean?
Honestly, we’ve looked at all this for my son, so he can have official docs in his name and to change some of these docs is possible but requires certified and witnessed original copies of Deed Poll documents. And as a minor he also needs our consent which may not be forthcoming in all situations. You can apply for gender recognition, which is another route but that requires you to have lived as your new identity for at least 2 years.
It is genuinely not easy, can be costly, time consuming and stressful. Not £15 and a few mouse clicks no matter what some seem to think.
How easy do you think it should be to get an ID card?
You likened it yesterday to being turned away from a pub for being transgender (OK, for not having 'valid ID' but we all know there's more to it)
"she left Wetherspoons on Tuesday in tears after being told she would not be served
I got this far, then realised I didn’t care. I got turned away from a pub in Portsmouth once cos I was wearing trainers. I didn’t cry, I just went somewhere else.
Which I find shows either a lack of comprehension, or pretty offensive.
That's good to know theotherjonv - I appreciate (now) how much hassle it could be.
But.......you are talking from a position of wanting your new name on the ID too are you not - would it be the same level of hassle if you were prepared to have your dead name but a current photo on the ID?
Again - not trying to victim blame. But everyone who goes out for a drink wants a hassle free evening. If it helped you get that it's a win. Birth certificate, bank statement, new photo, £15 - jobs a goodun?
How easy do you think it should be to get an ID card?
I didn't say it should be easy. I said getting official ID with proof of age on such as a passport wasn't trivial, and you and others said there are lots of other options. Which as it turns out, 1/ there aren't and 2/ they pretty well all rely on having a passport or similar standard ID in the first place.
So yes - you're right. There are other options that you can get for £15 and a few mouse clicks, but unless you're going to argue semantics they do not answer the question / solve this problem.
if you were prepared to have your dead name but a current photo on the ID?
Factually true. Not easy. Do you want to try to talk my son into that?
Black men would like a hassle free existence too. IDK why they don't just drive round in shit old cars and not go out in the evening, for a hassle free existence?
Factually true. Not easy. Do you want to try to talk my son into that?
Well, this girl was walking around with an ID that had both her dead name and her old visual representation on it. So my proposal would be a 50% improvement would it not?
Agree - this is a really tough situation and one I didn't have to face.
yes, fair comment. She could have relatively easily got an ID card in her dead name but with a new photo.
I can't speak for her, but that wouldn't work in our situation - actually it's the name rather than the visual photo that creates the bigger issue. And we're not in pub going territory (yet)
Which I find shows either a lack of comprehension, or pretty offensive.
Oh. I find it offensive that you're comparing it to black issues. Who's offence is most important?
Complete aside (excepting partisanal potential for meta-confirmation-bias-bingo)
-What about if a black cyclist were refused entry to the pub?
-What if three black cyclists were refused entry?
-What if black cyclists were refused entry , and then some white people were allowed in?
-What if the pub said it was due to Covid19/social distancing?
-what if the three refused cyclists were to pay no heed, go and stand in the centre of the pub and thrice sing Land Of Hope Glory?
-Would this break prejudice and bigotry so hard that it would never recover?
Personally, I find yours worse. Because footwear is something you can change just like that. Gender identity, or skin colour, not.
At least, I don't think trainers are a protected characteristic yet?
Changing your gender on official documents sounds quite complicated and some of the requirements appear contradictory, never mind the cost. If the individual hasn't had surgery they also need a letter from their gp to say that they have lived as that gender and that the change is permanent, but what if you are still exploring who you are?
And maybe waiting for acceptance from colleagues, family and friends before making a transition to permanently assuming a different gender?
I understand that barstaff have to be vigilant of underage drinkers because of the consequences, but do you really think that a young lad would go to the effort of dressing up as a young woman just to get into a pub?
It takes a lot of strength and courage to make such huge changes to your appearance, I can imagine that the knock back has damaged her confidence further. It's good to see that 'spoons is acting compassionately and taking action by providing training.
@theotherjonv, thank you for providing your insight and all the best to your son.
https://gic.nhs.uk/info-support/changing-your-passport/
Quite:
It is a bit of a non-story, it’s been badly handled and Wetherspoons staff are apparently going to be better advised for the future which is a good outcome. The responses of some on here – to her and to Wetherspoons and their clientele – that’s a bigger issue for me.