[Closed] TP-12 and counting... Training Content

Chris Carmichael's Time Crunched Cyclist.

Intervals
Intervals
Intervals

I've gone back up to 84kg, if that's of interest.

Tabata Intervals, if you can do them 2 - 3 times a week for the next 12 weeks I would be very impressed, personally no other work out has made me feel quite so sick ever.

Already do some Tabata intervals.

3 times a week doesn't sound unrealistic.
Have in the past done tabata sessions followed by longer intervals after.

Why's the weigt gone back up Mol?

Have in the past done tabata sessions followed by longer intervals after.

I've heard other people say this before, surely if the Tabata Protocol is strictly adhered to (i.e 100% effort)you should have nothing left in the tank to do any further work.

If training for the T-P get in as many days with 1000m - 2000m of altitude gain as possible.

Remember all the timed stages are predominantly downhill. 😉

Kingtut... Possibly... although you stop, do something gentle for a bit and then recover enough to more intervals at a lower intensity??

Altitude gain is tricky where I live... hill reps at the Uffington White Horse might have to be on the agenda.

I seem to be stuck, Yeti. Weight goes down if I don't ride as much, and the riding that I do is not so good. If I ride more I need to eat more carbs and my riding improves, but my weight goes back to 84.

So far at least. This week should be uninterrupted cycling so we shall see.

surely if the Tabata Protocol is strictly adhered to (i.e 100% effort)you should have nothing left in the tank to do any further work

Disagree - that depends on your fitness profile. I can bury myself for a short time, then after a bit of a rest I can do more. It's cos I'm an endurance athlete and I'm used to long rides.

Molly... I'm inclined to think you should start ignoring the scales and think more about your waist measurement?

I monitor both... my weight has beeen pretty consistant a lb or 2 either side of 12 stone... my waist though has continued to drop.

Yeah might be time for measurements or even calipers.

Plus our scales are well inaccurate.

Mrs Grips thinks my BF is dropping steadily.. however I can't imagine I'd be much good as an MTBer weighing 84kg unless I was stupidly powerful, which would be very hard to achieve I think.

Intervals and hill reps ftw, and some squats/leg press etc at the gym which i suspect you might already do? If you can find someone to do hill reps with who is your speed ish, then you will get much more out of it - sandy and i attack each other on hill reps and by the time we are at the top, both of us are ready to puke! I'd not work that hard if i was on my own. Make sure you rest enough (!) and eat well too.

Weight goes down if I don't ride as much, and the riding that I do is not so good. If I ride more I need to eat more carbs and my riding improves, but my weight goes back to 84

I can't imagine I'd be much good as an MTBer weighing 84kg unless I was stupidly powerful, which would be very hard to achieve I think.

This is where genetics gets all of us.

I've got a lot of weight to lose - around 10kg - but I know I'll never have the energy to develop any fitness if I try to do that AND get back on the bike more. So, I'm now working on the principle that fitness comes first and the weight can then gradually reduce.

Kingtut... Possibly... although you stop, do something gentle for a bit and then recover enough to more intervals at a lower intensity??

I guess so, but the benefits of Tabata is the short sharp workout that not only sends your cardiovascular system through the roof it also raises your metabolic rate for many hours afterwards, so there may be the possibility that any further training after the Tabata session would be a wasted effort.

Possibly.

Mol.. I don't think either you or I have the natural build to truly excel at cycling... my focus now is just gettin super fit... or becoming a Spartan, I'm not sure.

If your bodyfat is dropping you might just have to accept this and become a Spartan too.

ir12daveor - are you doing T-P??

This is where genetics gets all of us

Someone show me a picture of a 13st elite MTBer.. or even pro roadie for that matter.

I don't think either you or I have the natural build to truly excel at cycling

Perhaps, although this is depressing - I'm too old for any other form of competition. I once spoke to an Elite MTBer who was 78kg, this was somewhat encouraging. Not a chunky lad mind, just a few inches taller than most of them.

This might cheer you up tho:

[img] [/img]

92kg apparently. I think I know what my next bike purchase will be...

surely if the Tabata Protocol is strictly adhered to (i.e 100% effort)you should have nothing left in the tank to do any further work

100% agree

If anyone thinks tabata is easy and they can do more then they are a bare faced liar. 100% means 100%. 10 secs rest isn't that much

I had a very good coach a few months to improve my fitness for racing this year. He slowly built up intervals over a period of time (he had me working on periodisation principles - base,build,speed,power etc)

You'd obviosuly have to work out your HR or power zones to do this but typical intervals for me were

10 min warm up
10 x 1min l4* with 10 x 1 min l2
10 min l2
10 x 1min l4 with 10 x 1 min l2

then after a few weeks he'd notch it up to

10min warm up
6 x 4min l4 with 6 x 2 min recovery

after weeks the interval period would increase and the recovery decrease.

There were a few other variations where I'd do 10 x 1min l4 with 10 x 1min l2 and then 30 mins L3 with 10 sec all out sprints every 2 mins. These were an absolute killer i can tell you

*l4 = level 4 HR for me which is 175

molgrips - still taking all that maltodextin? Thats why your weight is not dropping. follow iDaves advice on that.

follow iDaves advice on that

I am, to the letter. That advice includes maltodextrin or similar.

If anyone thinks tabata is easy and they can do more then they are a bare faced liar

I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying that no matter how battered you are, if it's a short intense workout then you can have a rest and come back for more - unless you are very unfit.

If anyone thinks tabata is easy and they can do more then they are a bare faced liar. 100% means 100%. 10 secs rest isn't that much

Never said it was easy, just that after a rest... I can do another exercise. I don't do all this HR stuff... but I push myself in Tabata to the point I want to faint.

Mol - I'd say I have a track cyclists build... ain't no way I'm getting into track riding except maybe to set a couple of PBs.

Someone show me a picture of a 13st elite MTBer.. or even pro roadie for that matter.

13stone roadie

[img] [/img]

I don't do all this HR stuff.

I personally think that it helps loads training by heart rate. If you were developing an engine in a car to produce more hp surely you'd want to know how much power it produces 1st?

I made leaps in training through knowing what zones to train in. (obviously helped having a coach telling me what i needed to do and actually restricting training as i wanted to do more)

TD who is that?

molgrips - Member

follow iDaves advice on that

I am, to the letter. That advice includes maltodextrin or similar.

~Well in the original thread on which we debated this he clearly said if you want to loose weight do not take all that maltodextrin and he has repeated it since. Low GI is a part of his theory is it not?

TeeJ... this is not an iDiet thread 👿

He can eat chocolate covered chip butties for all I care. As long as he does intervals before, after and during consumption.

Stick to the topic... like I always do 😀

Aye TSY - sorry.

Mol - I'd say I have a track cyclists build... ain't no way I'm getting into track riding except maybe to set a couple of PBs.

Fabian Cancellara - spartacus

Perhaps best time trial-rider ever.

2010
Arc en ciel.svg 1st UCI Road World Championship Time Trial
1st Overall Tour of Oman
1st Paris–Roubaix
1st Ronde van Vlaanderen
1st E3 Prijs Vlaanderen
1st Prologue Tour de Suisse
1st Prologue (ITT) Tour de France
1st Stage 19 (ITT) Tour de France
2011
1st Prologue Tour de Suisse
1st Stage 9 (ITT) Tour de Suisse
1st Prologue Tour de Luxembourg
1st Stage 7 (ITT) Tirreno–Adriatico
1st E3 Prijs Vlaanderen
2nd Milan – San Remo
2nd Paris–Roubaix
3rd Ronde van Vlaanderen
1st National Road Race Champion

Well in the original thread on which we debated this he clearly said if you want to loose weight do not take all that maltodextrin and he has repeated it since. Low GI is a part of his theory is it not?

I can't C+P out of the Google doc but it gives instructions for taking simple carbs during and after exercise. Which is what I've been saying all along.

ain't no way I'm getting into track riding

Why not? It's absolutely ace 🙂

And I'm taking it up when I get the chance so you could always try and beat me 🙂

sorry TSY - I'll go away after this one

Molgrips -But he said on the thread where we were debating your use of thousands of calories of maltodextrin a week that if you want to loose weight while training do not take all that maltodextrin.

this is why you are not loosing weight while training - because of the maltodextrin. its as simple as that.

DirtyG... I know you do... I just can't see myself doing it. S'pose I shouldn't knock it until I've tried it, but I'm guessing it's a little serious for me.

Far more likely to get in triathlon and iron mans. Couple of people at my gym have qualified for world half iron man in Vegas... very inspiring.

TeeJ... don't worry about it (as long as you start spelling 'lose' correctly). Keep going as long as you like... I'll use it as inspiration for stamina training.

I'm interested to hear about the maltodextrin but i don't want to get into a discussion about it. What thread was it on so i can go hunt?

Mol, i tried track on saturday for the first time. Ace doesn't describe it! Can't wait to go again. We got timed for half and full laps, standing starts and taught how to ride properly using the full track. Weird sensation riding above someone, or with someone riding above you!

Edit, TSY, funny, i could see you being very good at it. But i can see the appeal of IM and why you'd like that. Question is will you have time now what with your other interest? 😛

But he said on the thread where we were debating your use of thousands of calories of maltodextrin a week that if you want to loose weight while training do not take all that maltodextrin

TJ I am taking less maltodextrin. I can't believe you are telling me off based on someone else's advice, and yet I am following their advice exactly. I don't think you really read posts properly on here.

Oh and I've lost over a stone so far so something is working.

A few points:

1) You are not a coach
2) I have spoken at length to a coach and I am following his advice
3) You are not me and do not feel how my body responds to training and diet
4) I have experimented with training load and carb intake in many ways - you have not.

So I cannot imagine why you think you are in any way qualified to talk about my training and diet plan.

So molgrips.. Have you eaten your words? 😉

That is indeed a 13st roadie and he's very good at what he does.

apparently he lost weight but this reduced his power

Well, when Molly comes back we're going to hit up the Reading or Cardiff track so we'll see.

Haha hopefully... a new gym membership has been purchased...

What is Maltowhatever??

So molgrips.. Have you eaten your words?

My words are not iDave compliant I'm afraid 🙂 I wasn't trying to defy you to find one, I was genuinely interested to know if there are any and what kind of rider they are - climber, sprinter etc. That' why I asked who it was so I could look him up.

DG - did you do any racing? I've been to a couple of club fun days and done one or two fun races and it was the most intense experience I've ever had on a bike. Talk about red mist. And I suppose that's what it's all about - if you want to really fight your opponents eyeball to eyeball, if you get a rush out of it, then it's the best. If you just want to test yourself out on the road/in the hills then it's probably not.

Yeti - we can do the outdoor tracks but I'd recommend Newport indoor for the real experience 🙂

Far more likely to get in triathlon and iron mans.

Tom Lowe is 87kg and a successful Ironman'ist, so depending on your build you don't need to go too low for that either.

Molgrips - out of interest how much maltodextrin do you have a week?

how much does jedi weigh and is he a good rider? if you're having fun, not hurting yourself or the people around you.... then you're a good rider in my overly warm and fuzzy opinion 😀

surely 'power to weight ratio' is more important that weight itself with regards to timed competitions?

yeti i think you need some of "phils super intense training sessions" that i run from my house.... for every hill i climb at swinley you have to get up and down it 3 times before i hit the top. it's the only medically proven way to improve.

Phil.. you are very right.. it's all about the fun really. I have learnt that I can have more fun by being fitter though. You can ride further... you can ride quicker... you can ride more 🙂

Can I book myself into a Phillysupersexualuphiltraining session then please?

if you're having fun, not hurting yourself or the people around you.... then you're a good rider in my overly warm and fuzzy opinion

Aw bless.. you don't have the competitive gene, do you? 🙂

Phil.w - if I ride in (takes an hour each way), I have two scoops (about 50g of powder which is what, 35g carbs) each way. If I've done a really hard workout on the way home or feel under-fuelled I might have two scoops of recovery after.

Riding in 2-4 times a week.

Afaik this is as per the diet.

surely 'power to weight ratio' is more important that weight itself with regards to timed competitions?

Yes - but let's say I want to achieve 5 w/kg at threshold to be fairly quick. To get the same effect as losing 4kg, which is what I might want to lose, I'd have to gain 20W, which seems to be rather difficult. Of course if I have 4kg spare lard I should be able to lose that AND gain 20W power. Extra muscle mass could be good, extra lard is not ever.

TBH Mol, I don't think I have the competitive gene either. I do it for fun...
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And to be quicker than everyone else

wasn't trying to defy you to find one, I was genuinely interested to know if there are any and what kind of rider they are - climber, sprinter etc. That' why I asked who it was so I could look him up.

Or how about miguel indurain. He was around 12st 7 and won the tour de france 5 times!

Armstrong's nto superlight either IIRC.

I've been doing some of his power workouts recently. Maybe I've still for the TDF in me.

my next tattoo:

Phil.. you are very right.. it's all about the fun really. I have learnt that I can have more fun by being fitter though. You can ride further... you can ride quicker... you can ride more

it is true goddammit!! if you can ride the stuff you find fun without feeling like a hippo is sitting on your chest punching you in the eyeballs its even more enjoyable.

if you're serious about doing some uphills (swinley may not be mountainous but its all very up-down-up-down) then we could easily ride soon with a rule that you must belt up each hill, then go back down and meet the last person in the group, belt back up again, and repeat untill everyone's up the hill.... reducing intervals up hill with someone to chat to at every stage 😀

molly, i have a competitive gene that makes me competitive with myself... not other people. i want to be a better rider for my own enjoyment... not so i can 'beat' other people.

Haha hopefully... a new gym membership has been purchased...

Mol, nope - it was a try the track day with coaches taking us through drills etc. There's a thurs night training session up here that i'm going to go to - when its dry enough to ride that is 🙄 Apparently i'm suited to 8 lap team pursuits so keen to give that a shot, and i reckon i could love track racing big time. ATM i'm still planning to concentrate on road racing next year but that may change...i'm already after a fixie!

Swinley? Hills?

For the second time this thread - aww, bless 🙂

molly... all this 'aww bless' is feeling a little condescending. don't make me turn my competitive gene in your direction, that sounds like way too much hard work 😆

Just teasing mate that's all, so yes it was intended to be condescending 🙂

Could work for interval training that Phil... can we smoke on the way up?? 😀

I found a quote that I want for a tattoo the other day... was at the end of the Team Hoyt video.. something about "body being the carriage for the mind" Shakespeare I think... can I find it now? Can I flip!

DirtyG - I've just had an epiphany... indoor track cycling means all the pink lycra I could ever possibly hope to wear. Downside is that my steel framed roadie is heavy as hell.

Downside is that my steel framed roadie is heavy as hell.

You can't ride a normal road bike on the track. Very strict rules about braze ons and BB heights..but most of all brakes! road bikes with brakes would be very dangerous on the track

its all good molly i need a gym partner desperately i think... it'd be much easier to motivate myself to go and do certain exercises if i had someone with me!

yeti... i'm gaffa taping 6 huge cigars to your mouth for the climbs, extreme sport for the lungs innit.

Oh sugar.. so now I need a lightweight road bike regardless... a TT bike...a super lightweight XC bike... [i]and[/i] a bike for track days.

FFS.

Yup...i [i]need[/i] a race road bike, winter road bike, fixie, 2 x mtbs, and a track bike! 😀

You can hire track bikes which is what we did - we had to give our road bike measurements and they were set up for us. I got off the bike after the first few laps shaking with the adrenaline from having no brakes/getting used to it - scary as anything riding on the wheel of someone and having to remember to resist the pedals to slow down! But was a lot easier than i expected...took a few laps to believe that my pedal wouldn't hit the track pedalling in the corners too. And the Gs you get when you have built up speed for one fast lap...wow!!

I managed to get Mrs Grips to agree to me getting a track bike since you can't track ride without one.. 🙂

Hiring track bikes is ok but very frustrating - on mine, the saddle nose was rammed into my perineum causing me to think I'd become a eunuch, and the gearing was way too low for my phenomenal leg power. Still reached mind bending speeds tho!

I had no problem with riding fixed APART from the desire to stand up and rest for a bit to get blood flowing back to my balls - big nonon!

You're starting to sell it... although I live miles away from one... and there is always 4X racing too 😀

Anyways... back to the OP...

The event involves 9500m of ascent and 15,000 descending.

DGOAB - it is amazing! I did a taster session at newport last year. Same experience as you (i'll never ride that bank it's scarily steep!) Once you get used to it it's an amazing experience.

We did pursuit drills and i decided to hook up with the older guys from the club and they knew what they were doing. The young guys on the other hand were rubbish as they kept sprinting/chasing each other down and slowly down (basically not working as a team). i love the team work aspect to it when you peel off and go to the back and allow the other guys to come through.

must look into accreditation

new 4X track in reading now yeti.... one of my patients wants me to go ride it with him soon 🙂

TD - how far are you from Newport? My plan is to get work near home and then go to their race nights - Tuesdays I think. See you there? 🙂 Let me know if you find an accreditation session from August onwards, I'm interested.

trickydisco, We got right to the top of our track but i dunno how high it is compared to ones down south. When i saw it in the morning, i thought there'd be no way i'd ride up there but by the afternoon all of us road at the top fine. This isn't helping my desire to get straight back on the track this week! 🙁

I had no problem with riding fixed APART from the desire to stand up and rest for a bit to get blood flowing back to my balls - big nonon!

Assume you mean general fixie riding?

No, never ridden fixed other than the track - and don't intend to either 🙂 Riding standing up was ok but standing up and resting was such an ingrained response it was hard to override.

I'm in Brizzle so not far. Got a few guys in the club that race there quite often. They want me to be the 3rd man in the team sprint.

i've got to know one of the coaches that does sessions there so I'll see about courses.

I'm going to have to flounce off my own thread in a minute! Think I'd rather talk about maltodextrin than track riding!

What is maltodextrin anyway?

Ah right.. good. I had real difficulty getting info on how to actually race in real races. If your club is involved I'll join 🙂 I don't think the Cardiff clubs do much apart from the fun evenings - that's all the info I could get out of Cyclopedia anyway.

Riding standing up was ok but standing up and resting was such an ingrained response it was hard to override.

On the other hand, it's a mistake you only ever make once on the track!

I haven't been on the track in a few months; been doing crit and road racing instead and just general riding. The weather is nice so it makes sense to be outside rather than on an indoor track! But track riding is brilliant, such a good workout.

I seem to have quick enough reactions to realise my mistake before anything bad happened. However one chap who'd arrived late and was going around on his own whilst we chatted didn't. He tried to stop pedalling and locked his legs, which threw him and the back of the bike up in the air quite high - he seemed to panic and lock up even more which resulted in his back wheel bouncing crazily along the track for quite a while.. as we all stood watching him amazed that he managed to stay on 🙂

I think you just have to get accredited and you can race in the leagues.

I see these about quite often : http://www.cwmcarnparagon.com/ and i'm sure some ride the track: http://www.cwmcarnparagon.com/trackevents.htm

Sorry TSY.. this thread has split apart.

Anyway..in short.. i'd say get yourself a heart rate monitor and try and work out your zones if your that serious about improving your fitness. It took a lot of the guess work out for me and i felt i made more improvements.

Weirdly i now find i can ride on feel a lot more and pace things without a heart rate monitor. I don't wear it for races really anymore and can pace TT's much better (

ir12daveor - are you doing T-P??

What is maltodextrin anyway?

It's carbohydrate used as a replacement for sugar/fructose as it is energy dense & digested faster making it ideal for energy drinks/foods.

I think it's basically glucose that has had some science stuff done to it.

Ah, i don't stand up to rest and i was very conscious of keeping the pedals turning! Think its a real shame we have an outdoor track here.

TSY, i'm not going there on a thread with mol and tj in it!

.. and it's easier on the stomach than sugar or glucose meaning you can drink it for a 6 hour ride without being sick.

well i've been using the torq stuff by the bucket load which has maltodextin in it and i've had no problem losing weight

ir12... what bike are you riding for it??

DirtyG is it in High5 4:1?

Yup it is. And its fine. I've got a good website link to send you which compares stuff and pros/cons. Maltrodextin = pro on that website.

Yeah... I try and use as little of that stuff as possible at the moment. I know it works and all that but as much as possible I try and get my calories from food. After AS I was using it only after riding when I knew it was going to be a while before I could get a proper meal.

The Southern Yeti - Member

ir12... what bike are you riding for it??

Just out of curiosity, why are you using it less? Different type/intensity of training? I did similar but then came to the conclusion it hampered my recovery so came to a happy medium for the type of riding i'm doing atm.

It's easy to get calories without a) having to digest a lot of other stuff, which is useful when riding, and b) it doens't come with anything else, no fat or nuffink.

I never really used it much anyway Dirty... maybe 1 to 2 a day for LEJOG. Plus a handful since. I just don't think I ever train at a level where I need it and really not a fan of synthetic foods.

Energy drinks / protein powders etc kind of go against my diet philosophy so are a last resort for me. I'd rather eat a sausage roll 🙂

Plus.. if anything's going to hamper my recovery... it's going on all night drinking binges 😀

dave.. I was going to do it on a hardtail but have jsut bought a Covert... feels ideal and is sub 30lb.

I just don't think I ever train at a level where I need it

You always need fuel - not necessarily energy drink but you do always need it. It's not always possible to fill your tank beforehand either if you are going a long way. It's like driving lejog and deciding you aren't stopping for petrol on the way, so you have to drive really slowly 🙂