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What would you do first? Doh?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7012913.ece
Surely to god you'd just knock it out of gear and stop? Even an auto has neutral........
I wouldnt trust the kind of person who buys a Toyota Aygo to turn off the oven, let alone think of using the clutch 😉
I'm damned bloody sure I could stop a car with a stuck accelerator quicker than I could dial 999.
I remember the accelerator sticking in my Polo when I was a new driver. A friend had to point out that I could kill it by turning the key but even at 17 depressing the clutch seemed the natural thing to do. Darwin Award nomination for the family, god (of their choosing) rest their souls.
assume this is the guy who ran the SUV type thing off the end of a freeway? (can't access article) The audio recording of the 911 call was awful to listen to.
I just can't understand why he didn't put it in neutral. Blind panic maybe?
Or perhaps it's a software bug (Steve Wozniak was interviewed about something similar today too but about the Prius specifically - apparently he also has a repeatable testcase for it)
can you wang an auto that is pulling hard into neutral?
its clutchless isnt it... so would the shifter actually move?
someone I used to work with put her stiletto heel through the floor of her aging Renault 5 and jammed the accelerator down.
she had the presence of mind to drop the clutch, take her foot out of the shoe and brake to a halt. She spent some time with the engine racing tryign to get her shoe out of the floor before she turned the ignition off though. The heel ended up needing hammering back through from the other side!
[i]hold on and pray. . . pray[/i]
I guess they thought something other than turning the car off was going to save them...
Not sure that it has a key either
I have twice been on motorbikes that have had throttles stuck wide open, both on the track [TZ350 & TZ700] I crashed both times but in my defence it was at racing speed & I was on the [my] limit anyway
I think it's a bit short sighted to just assume it was an easy situation to get out of. According to the article the guy was a traffic cop so should be used to high speed driving.
I'm going to assume a combination of keyless ignition, auto-box quirks, cooked brakes or other such mechanical and electronic oddities caused a situation he couldn't get out of.
It's easy to sit at a computer and dismiss him as stupid for not trying hard enough to save the lives of his entire family.
It's entirely possibel with the new keyless ignitions that they're programmed ot not switch off if the vehicle is going over a certain speed, of course.
A friend had to point out that I could kill it by turning the key but even at 17 depressing the clutch seemed the natural thing to do.
Well as someone pointed out in the comments on that article, if you turn the key your steering will lock and you'll lose braking assist. 😯
So I guess slam in the clutch, ignore screaming engine, brake hard then kill the ignition once stopped to prevent the engine destroying itself. Not sure if I'd think of that at the time, but I'm pretty sure I'd give something a go before dialling 911!
(Oh the article says he had no brakes either, so maybe he'd tried that already)
You're right, jackthedog.
graham - steering lock only engages when the key is removed, not in ignition off position.
You do lose anti lock braking and the steering servos but I wouldnt expect to be going forward much longer! 🙂
if you turn the key your steering will lock and you'll lose braking assist
This was an 84 Polo so brake or steering power were not applicable, rather less tech than a modern Lexus I would agree.
Autos usualy have a hydraulic transmission, basilcy two impellers roatating in a liquid. The faster one spins the faster the other spins, its kind of like driving arround with the clutch pushed in 5%. At motorway speeds the transmision locks (the two plates get pushed together) to improve efficiency.
After that you have a series of planetary gears (think of it like a big hammersmidt) with hydraulic circuits regulating which ones are in use, put your foot down and pressure builds up, opens a valve, drops into a lower gear, reach a constant speed, pressure drops, valve closes and engages a higher gear. So in effect when you'r in 3rd (for example) your also in 1st and 2nd as well.
Modern ones do it all electronicaly.
Even more modern 'semi automatics' are just the normal (occasionaly dog-bone) gearbox with an automatic shifter.
So yes, its perfectly possible to have an automatic stuck in gear, it wont stall as the box just drops it into 1st and keeps pulling, and the ECU probably wont let the engine cut out whist your moving (you'd destroy the cat for a start)
the ECU probably wont let the engine cut out whist your moving
Reminds me of the old story where the new fly-by-wire plane prevented the captain from pulling up to avoid the ground, as the manoeuvre would exceed the permitted maximum strain on the wings!
my throttles always sticking, but then again its a 30yr old MG so its par for the course.
I remember the accelerator sticking in my Polo
so not just me then.
I had my engine run away in my first car. Not a sticking throttle, but a slipping cable on the choke (had just been into a garage for something). Much easier with an old manual car like that - depress clutch, apply brakes, ignore screaming engine. I'm sure the driver in that story didn't have at least one of those options.
I cannot imagine a situation where any typical car cannot be stopped by modern brakes, regardless of the gear it's in. Equally, if it's a fly-by-wire accelerator pedal then it'll shut off engine power when it detects the brake or clutch pedal depressed - my 2003 Passat does this and I fail to see how a more modern car would be different.
Sadly, these "car has gone out of control but I'll phone the police" scenarios aren't that rare and are simply people looking for attention. Sadly, they got the wrong kind of attention in this case.
Dab the brakes a couple of times with the throttle open and you lose the brake servo. Virtually no brakes, no key, no clutch and a locked box - you're stuffed. Attempting to spin the thing using the handbrake or pendulum is all I can come up with.
It is a sad shame it happened, but surely they'd have tryed everything? pulling the key card out or locking on the handbrake whilst braking or pulling out all the fuses, or even trying to force the accelerator up by hand. If theres enough time to dial 911 and have at least tens seconds on the phone one of those would have been on my mind, but then they might have been trying them too.
In the one I saw on the news, the driver claimed his brakes would not work (seems odd to me but there you go)
To be fair to these guys the 911 call may have saved a load of other lives.
Just seen this article on the News at 10 on ITV. Looks like a really serious problem over there. Cars being dumped either at dealers till there fixed and dumped on the side of the road, too scared to drive them. I didn't see which one, but there was a American Politician telling people to stop driving their car straight away. Cue panic! 🙄
Bit more info [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8497128.stm ]here[/url]
Should have stuck with right hand drive. 😛
There was a similar problem back in the 90's with the Jag XJ R - the throttle position sensors were failing locking them full on & the relationship between this & all the other electronic gubbins meant there was no way of switching off, the gear box could only be manually changed below a certain speed & the brakes would not operate whilst you were 'accellerating'.
Fortunately there weren't that many on the road so it didn't become a major issue (unless you were driving one of course).
Was this a software problem or a mechanical one?
If you can turn off the ignition (assuming its a key not a card) but leave the car in gear, you'll still have engine braking, and as the engine is turning, you'll still have power steering and brakes. If you hold the clutch in, all assistance will stop.
Read the article people he was a traffic cop I'm pretty sure he didn't willingly take his family through an intersection at speed. Also, the 911 call will make it clear that it was a technical issue and not a suicide attempt, plus it'll be recorded so Toyota can't deny it.
I still don't get how there are not multiple methods of slowing the car. Crash barriers, hand brakes etc. Hard to imagine he didn't try though, but it does beg the question about fly-by-wire and taking too much control away from people I suppose. Problem is that tends to create a knee-jerk reaction against it, which is stupid too.
[url= http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=809_1253514413&c=1 ]Audio here[/url]
I get the impression from the initial comparatively calm tone of voice that that they'd had the issue for a little while and had run out of options - "we've got no brakes". I think the intersection came up on them quicker than they realised. Very sad.
Cars may be safer now than 20 years ago but the potential for problems has to be multiple times higher.
Equally, if it's a fly-by-wire accelerator pedal then it'll shut off engine power when it detects the brake or clutch pedal depressed - my 2003 Passat does this and I fail to see how a more modern car would be different.
Not all modern cars do this.
My Toyota has a push button ignition (bit of a stupid gimmick imo) and if you press the button when moving nothing happens ie the car stays 'on'. Also I am not sure if you press the brake the throttle cuts, haven't tried it. You can still shift into neutral tho, I know that for a fact, but it's all electronic not a mechanical traditional auto.
I suspect that even a traditional auto should be able to be shifted into neutral at speed. There's a law saying it has to be D N R P in that order since people were always accidentally shifting in to reverse from drive, so I am guessing neutral is possible. That's also the advice that they gave out in the US for pepole in runaway cars.
From http://articles.latimes.com/2009/oct/25/nation/na-toyota-crash25?pg=2
the vehicle's brake surfaces showed signs that they had been worn down through heavy braking against the full force of the 272-horsepower Lexus engine."Rotors were discolored and heated, had very rough surfaces, had substantial deposits of brake pad material, and showed signs of bright orange oxidation on the cooling fins consistent with endured braking," the report said.
NHTSA investigators also noted that instructions for operating the car's keyless ignition, which requires that the power button be pressed for three full seconds to turn off the engine while the car is moving, were "not indicated on the dashboard."
Double post
This has been going on for months, I've been waiting for the panic over here.
Toyota appear to be coming out of this extremely badly, in the US their sales have fallen compared to Fomoco and Goverment Motors.
The previous fix for this problem was a recall to fit "new floor mats". Toyota is so going to get sued.
NHTSA investigators also noted that instructions for operating the car's keyless ignition, which requires that the power button be pressed for three full seconds to turn off the engine while the car is moving, were "not indicated on the dashboard."
Interesting.. my car is probly the same, but I didn't know about that.
I'm damned bloody sure I could stop a car with a stuck accelerator quicker than I could dial 999.
Throttle cable snapped on my 106 that I had when I was 17, leaving the throttle wide open and lunging for the rev limiter.
So I knocked it out of gear, coasted onto the side of the road and switched the ignition off. Then called someone with a trailer to come and pick me up...
Did I die? No... Did I have time to call 999? No... Pretty immediate reaction once I felt the throttle jammed open was to knock it out of gear (which you can of course still do in an auto FFS!), which I did withing perhaps a second or 2 of realising the throttle was wide open. Even with 999 on speed dial and my mobile in my hand already, would've taken 10 to 15 seconds to make the call...
Sorry, not much sympathy I'm afraid...
Mavboy - the theory is that when an auto is under full load it would be too hard to knock into N, and that they had an electronic ignition that you can't turn off.
Anyway - panicing and not thinking of what to do should not be punishable by death you cretin.
maverick=cock
Anyway - panicing and not thinking of what to do should not be punishable by death you cretin.
Did I say it was?
I just think that there are many more ways of avoiding said accident than were tried. What was ringing 911 going to achieve?
maverick=cock
Ah, you've met me then! 😉
Besides, perhaps some emergency scenraio training should be implemented into driving tests worldwide as they do in Finland? People are taught to control skids, and all sorts of other potentially avoidable scenarios, before they can take their test...
Just a thought anyway.
I think I would've put the car into a spin/roll situation, before I thought to dial 911...
Actually, will rephrase what I said...
Lots of sympathy for the guys family, they were innocent casualties. The guy driving though, I'd suggest he was a victim of his own panic or lack of driving ability, hence much less sympathy for him. Fact his family died because of this is of course tragic.
Were Toyota at fault? For the throttle sticking open on the car almost certainly, but for the outcome of the accident? I'm sorry, but I still don't buy a lot of liability laws... Common sense and good practice should always prevail no matter what, this being able to sue people because of your own stupidity/lack of talent really gets me!
From the linked report the only way the driver could have avoided a controlled or uncontrolled carsh would have been to hold the start button down for more than three seconds. I didn't know you could stop a car with card/button ignition by holding the button down for three seconds before reading the report - how many of you did?
maverickboy - please, just stop.
I'm willing to bet that 99.9% of us would have panicked like f*ck, and probably died too. It's easy to say what you would have done from behind a keyboard, but in an unfamiliar car full of screaming people, at speed, heading for an accident - we'd (almost) all sh*t it. FACT
So I knocked it out of gear, coasted onto the side of the road and switched the ignition off. Then called someone with a trailer to come and pick me up...
So if you couldn't cut the ignition, you couldn't get it out of gear and your brakes had failed then what would you have done? Tell us oh Driving God?
It took me over a year to work out I could turn my bugging PC off by holding the button down for 5s rather than switching it off at the mains.
The guy driving though, I'd suggest he was a victim of his own panic or lack of driving ability, hence much less sympathy for him
Are you into eugenics? Those who have less than stellar intelligence should die? Just thought I'd ask.
Anyone can make a mistake. There are lots of ways people could have avoided the accidents they end up having, even when the situation they found themselves in wasn't their fault.
Just because the driver didn't think of the thing that may have saved his family, does not mean that it's OKAY that he died. Lack of perfection should not mean death is deserving... hence the comment about eugenics.
There has been a shed load written about this look at the LA Times auto pages. Lots of modern powerful cars won't stop a full throttle engine on the brakes - and in a heavily trafficed urban environment I'd suggest some you should come and try controlling such a car up, say the London end of the M3 I'd bet none of you would get past the first roundabout.
The guy driving though, I'd suggest he was a victim of his own panic or lack of driving ability, hence much less sympathy for him
Don't forget there were three adults in the car and I don't think that the other two would have been keeping their suggestions to themselves. I still think they'd tried pretty much everything - other than the 'secret turning engine off while moving technique'.
My father in law has a lexus with push button ignition - I very much doubt he would know how to stop the engine when moving.
Maybe it could also be argued that the garage that lent him the car 'may' also be to blame for not going through this 'safety' feature before he took the car?
MaverickBoy - Member
The guy driving though, I'd suggest he was a victim of his own panic or lack of driving ability, hence much less sympathy for him
Have you been reading this thread?
There seems to be a lot of unfair blame for the driver. This was a car that was unfamiliar to him. I suspect he was a more skilled driver than assumed.
The real point is that the car had a fault that killed a whole family.
It could happen to any one of us (except the driving gods who have the benefit of hindsight).
Moral of the story - don't buy, drive, or get in a Toyota until this nasty little fault is fixed.
Been in the motor trade for years and sold numerous automatic vans. I wouldnt know how to stop the car in that situation either.
I only hope that in that kind of situtation i have the presence of mind to plant it into whatever immovable object i could find before it got to such a velocity that i wouldnt survive (Ie crash it). I would also be looking for some dievine intervention and a new set of underpants.
I honestly havent a clue if a automatic can be shunted from drive to neutral whilst under load, i dont think they can but i will be testing it on the next one i get in.
Considering the guy was a traffic cop i recon its safe to asume he had a level of common sense and that if he thought it would work he would have tried it. Tragic accident involving a family so doesnt deserve flippant comments
Cooked brakes from prolonged braking? What would happen if you slam them on? Just wondering. Pretty sure i'd be progressive braking, but would a hard slam stall teh engine?
Not with ABS
Why would abs make a difference?
Because it won't let you lock the wheels which you'd have to do to stall the engine. If you try to decelerate faster than the sytem is programmed to accept it kicks in and modulates the Brakes. Old autos could be shifted to neutral but now they have fuel-saving lockouts I very much doubt you can at speed.
I was surprised that someone said that is you brake in a Passat it automatically cuts throttle. I've been able to left-foot brake in every FWD car I've ever driven with no effect on power.
Why would abs make a difference?
I think maybe if you could get the brakes to lock you might be able to stall the car - but ABS won't let you do this. I presume he'd tried chucking it into neutral - faced with a massive accident you'd try everything you could think of.
I believe he was driving a loaner car, so I would assume he was unfamiliar with it's controls.
And pardon my ignorance but how do you stop one of these under normal circumstances?
Moral of the story - don't buy, drive, or get in a Toyota until this nasty little fault is fixed.
Lots of comments on the BBC story about people having accelerator pedals jam - lots of them not Toyotas. It's not like they all do it. I'll still be driving mine. Admittedly it's not an affected model!
Cooked brakes from prolonged braking? What would happen if you slam them on? Just wondering. Pretty sure i'd be progressive braking, but would a hard slam stall teh engine?
Do you really think that he was just gently tickling the pedal whilst he sped towards certain death for him and his family? 🙄
My sympathies to the family - in fairness the automatic should and could go into neutral but he probably didn't think about it and panicked. Brakes wouldn't hold the whole engine's power either - just awful for them all. A family died nastily here - sympathy is a good thing right now.
Seems odd about the brakes not being able to dissipate the car. I mean they can slow it from 70mph faster than you can accelerate to that speed.. so surely they should be more than a match?
Confused.
molgrips - the brakes would have boiled. Bear in mind the brakes were trying to stop a 272bhp car weighing a couple of tons that was on full throttle. No contest sadly 🙁
The cock-sure self-righteousness of the hindsight jockeys in this thread is truly astounding.
Yes 272bhp is a lot but thing about it - you can stop from 60 quicker than you can accelerate to 60 - so the brakes must be able to exert more torque than the engine.. My guess is you'd have slowed a fair bit before brake fade caused them to loose effectiveness.
Also in american, they have those silly column shifters for a gear stick on autos if it had one that is.
i havent read the report but maybe he called the police to clear the road ahead so he didnt cause a accident like he might of by just spinning the car out.
Also hard to just pull handbrake on as it will rip the shoes off or just wear down the pad material like the fronts or snap cables but mostly it may have the park function on the colum shift again.
Autos will never go into park whilst moving, none that i have seen anyhow..
IIRC he couldn't shut off the engine because he had to hold the start button for three seconds - not something that is easy to do when your car is out of control at full speed.
As for the braking I also seem to remember that there was a problem with the vacuum assist not having as much power when the throttle was fully open. What I don't understand in something as electronic as these cars how someone hadn't spotted the failure mode of a stuck accelerator (for whatever reason) and someone pressing on the brakes at the same time and then letting the brakes override. Hindsight is great of course but it does seem like the sort of possibility that might get picked up in fault analysis
Also in american, they have those silly column shifters for a gear stick on autos if it had one that is.
Some cars do. Not this one though, it being a Japanese car and all.
You can't put it into park, that would destroy the tranny for sure. We are talking about putting it into neutral which you can normally do. Are you even reading the thread?
Brakes will cook very quickly when working against full engine power. The best thing you can do in the situation (assuming you can't get it in neutral) is to slam the brakes on as hard as possible as soon as possible. Gradual braking is absolutely sure to cook the brakes - the fluid won't normally boil, even under very hard use, but the pads burn up and the escaping gases force them away from the surface of the disc, massively reducing their effectiveness.
There are a fair few cars that won't let you accelerate against the brakes - my old 406 HDI would allow you to left foot brake for about half a second, and then it would completely cut all power. Seems like a fairly basic safety interlock if you're going to have a fly by wire throttle (you could quite easily cut the injector cycle / spark rather than throttle angle for the event of stepper motor failure).
note to self, must put car into neutral gear if it starts to race .
We’re in a Lexus. . . and we’re going north on 125 and our accelerator is stuck. . . we’re in trouble. . . there’s no brakes
I repeat
there’s no brakes
Folks. This isnt directly linked to the sticky accelerator pedal when cold or condensation. Its potentially a different problem.
This guy was a Highway Patrolman. RIP and have some respect for some of the comments hypothosising on what we would do.
She said there were no brakes but when under severe pressure people have a tendency not to be able to get the right words out.
PMSL
[i]So if you couldn't cut the ignition, you couldn't get it out of gear and your brakes had failed then what would you have done? Tell us oh Driving God?[/i]
molgrips - MemberYou can't put it into park, that would destroy the tranny for sure.
hmm tranny or your life! i wonder??
We are talking about putting it into neutral which you can normally do. Are you even reading the thread?
unfortunatly yes, seems like some people have no idea of mechanics
I have plenty of idea about mechanics thanks. I've never tried putting an auto under full load into neutral tho. Have you?
Oh and as for having no idea about mechanics... when you engage park it sticks a pawl like thing in the final drive I believe, which would cause either the pawl or the gears to break apart if you did it at speed.
lol well you wouldnt put the car into park function if you were speeding out of control?
hmm ok 😉
ofcourse no one has tried to put the car into neutral before because we are not in the situation 😉 but if i were i would break the car before i was
So if you couldn't cut the ignition, you couldn't get it out of gear and your brakes had failed then what would you have done? Tell us oh Driving God?
Hit the brakes as hard and sharp as possible (thus not allowing them the chance time to boil) and stuck it into the nearest available immovable object that wouldn't hurt anyone else whilst the car was still going slowly enough for no serious harm to be done.
Probably...
Are you into eugenics? Those who have less than stellar intelligence should die? Just thought I'd ask.
Not at all, though it would perhaps be a good answer to the worlds rapidly increasing population and lack of resources!!! 😉 (JOKE BTW, for those without a sense of humour!!!)
Seems odd about the brakes not being able to dissipate the car. I mean they can slow it from 70mph faster than you can accelerate to that speed.. so surely they should be more than a match?Confused.
Exactly what I was thinking too. 272bhp and 400Nm ish of torque can accelerate said vehicle to 60mph in approx 8 seconds, but the brakes will stop it from 60mph to a standstill in less than 3 seconds. Suggests to me that the brakes are capable of delivering torque far in excess of the engines capability.
molgrips - the brakes would have boiled. Bear in mind the brakes were trying to stop a 272bhp car weighing a couple of tons that was on full throttle. No contest sadly
It takes a fair length of time to boil the brakes on a car, certainly a lot longer than is required for a single stop from 60mph or so. On a trackday in my old Beemer, repeated slowing down from 120mph to 40mph or so, it took 4 laps before the brake pedal went long on a totally standard brake setup, on an almost equally as heavy car (BMW 5 series) with similar power output (286bhp in my case). Brakes don't boil THAT quickly! Unless they were perhaps being dragged and not stamped upon.
Brakes will cook very quickly when working against full engine power. The best thing you can do in the situation (assuming you can't get it in neutral) is to slam the brakes on as hard as possible as soon as possible. Gradual braking is absolutely sure to cook the brakes - the fluid won't normally boil, even under very hard use, but the pads burn up and the escaping gases force them away from the surface of the disc, massively reducing their effectiveness.
Agreed, though even though working against the engine, the brakes would still not boil instantly.
if it was a petrol engine with a vacuum servo on the brakes it wouldnt have any "servo" power as with the throttle wide open it wouldnt have manifold depression to power it .
Also a bit worrying is all these people out there who are driving with their foot to the floor.
Horrible way to go though.